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Less than 7/8 hours of sleep causes permanent brain damage?
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MrLemon Offline
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Less than 7/8 hours of sleep causes permanent brain damage?
New research, really good stuff.

Is Parkinson's disease and many other modern diseases caused by the invention of the electric light bulb?

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/12/opinio...clean.html

Quote:We’ve known for some time that sleep is essential for forming and consolidating memories and that it plays a central role in the formation of new neuronal connections and the pruning of old ones. But that hardly seems enough to risk death-by-leopard-in-the-night. “If sleep was just to remember what you did yesterday, that wouldn’t be important enough,” Dr. Nedergaard explains.

In a series of new studies, published this fall in the journal Science, the Nedergaard lab may at last be shedding light on just what it is that would be important enough. Sleep, it turns out, may play a crucial role in our brain’s physiological maintenance. As your body sleeps, your brain is quite actively playing the part of mental janitor: It’s clearing out all of the junk that has accumulated as a result of your daily thinking.
01-18-2014 12:56 PM
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Post: #2
RE: Less than 7/8 hours of sleep causes permanent brain damage?
This matched my experience in graduate school and just in general when I can't get enough sleep. The older I get, the less reserve of mental acuity I have, and any period of prolonged sleep deficit seems to really worsen it. And once past 50, whenever you traumatize your braine ( booze, drugs etc) it doesn't seem to recover fully.

You just edge a little more towards senility.

The reason I believe sleep deprivation is really bad, is that when the circumstances change, and I can sleep freely for a few days as much as I want; I end up taking at least one 2 hour nap per day, and then I start to feel much better. Even if you don't FEEL shitty, your brain is not at 100% potential when you're under slept.

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(This post was last modified: 01-18-2014 01:12 PM by iknowexactly.)
01-18-2014 01:07 PM
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AntiTrace Offline
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RE: Less than 7/8 hours of sleep causes permanent brain damage?
(01-18-2014 01:07 PM)iknowexactly Wrote:  This matched my experience in graduate school and just in general when I can't get enough sleep. The older I get, the less reserve of mental acuity I have, and any period of prolonged sleep deficit seems to really worsen it. And once past 50, whenever you traumatize your braine ( booze, drugs etc) it doesn't seem to recover fully.

You just edge a little more towards senility.

The reason I believe sleep deprivation is really bad, is that when the circumstances change, and I can sleep freely for a few days as much as I want; I end up taking at least one 2 hour nap per day, and then I start to feel much better. Even if you don't FEEL shitty, your brain is not at 100% potential when you're under slept.

my feelings as well.

I went through a very stressfull and academically challenging course a bit back. The majority of people would study,study,study everyday until the wee hours of the morning, going off 4-5 hours of sleep all week and then partying hard on the weekend.

I would study usually for around 2 hours, three at the most, and that was normally broken up into 3-4 different sessions.

Then I would close the books, drink a couple beers, and unwind until bedtime, where I would normally get ~7-8 hours of sleep.

I finished 2nd in a class of 64, and I wouldn't consider myself that much more intelligent than the average guy.


The Pareto principle. Sleep and a healthy diet are a good portion of that.

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01-18-2014 01:33 PM
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cardguy Offline
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RE: Less than 7/8 hours of sleep causes permanent brain damage?
Sometimes I go a night without sleep - or I don't sleep much. But that is only because I love 'catch-up sleep'. There is nothing better than crashing and sleeping solid for 12 hours in a row.

I have looked into some of the issues surrouding sleep in the past. There is alot of interesting informatgion which is not commonly known.

My favourite is the following article:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-16964783

It seems that in the middle ages until the dawn of the industrial revolution people used to have two sleeps per night. They would sleep for 3-4 hours. Wake up for a couple of hours - even hang out with friends in the street - and then go back to sleep for another 4 hours. Sleep would be broken into 'first' sleep and 'second' sleep.

What is interesting is that this was so common back then that it was little commented upon. Such that it is only recently that historians have realised this ever took place. Since it is such a paradigm shift from the usual mantra of sleeping for 8 hours - that references to a 'second sleep' used to be passed over by historians who assumed it meant something else.

Here are two references from famous authors mentioned in the article above:

Quote: "He knew this, even in the horror with which he started from his first sleep, and threw up the window to dispel it by the presence of some object, beyond the room, which had not been, as it were, the witness of his dream." Charles Dickens, Barnaby Rudge (1840)

"Don Quixote followed nature, and being satisfied with his first sleep, did not solicit more. As for Sancho, he never wanted a second, for the first lasted him from night to morning." Miguel Cervantes, Don Quixote (1615)

Back when I was researching this area - I came across this wikipedia page. It details the research of others into different patterns of sleep. Back then I was quite pleased to see that the legendary R. Buckminster Fuller was once an enthusiast in this area as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyphasic_sleep

The interesting thing about experimenting with different sleep patterns is that it is helpful in avoiding the worse feeling in the world. What is that feeling? Dragging yourself out of bed when you are still completely exhausted. Sometimes - I preferred to bite the bullet and skip sleep so that I culd catch-up the following night. For me that would often be better than forcing myself to wake up after just 4-5 hours sleep (depending on how my sleep cycles were).
(This post was last modified: 01-18-2014 02:09 PM by cardguy.)
01-18-2014 02:03 PM
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Laurifer Offline
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RE: Less than 7/8 hours of sleep causes permanent brain damage?
My bad habit is laying in bed with my laptop prior to going to sleep. I usually end up being up much later than is good for me. I spent almost this entire week sleep deprived and tired at work. Yet when I get home I am some how able to stay up late. I probably average 7 hours of sleep but feel like I should get 9.

I need to get back to my old routine of reading before bed instead of being on my laptop.
01-18-2014 03:08 PM
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MrLemon Offline
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RE: Less than 7/8 hours of sleep causes permanent brain damage?
Remember that, before 1910 and the invention of the electric light bulb, people got zillions of hours of sleep. 10 to 12 hours at least in the winter. Candles and gas lamps were extremely feeble. Insomnia wasn't even a recognized word.

The invention of the electric bulb changed human biology more than anything else in history, and almost nobody has even bothered to study it.


PS. The "Paleo Diet" crap is meaningless unless accompanied by Paleo Sleep. The damage from lack of sleep overrides any benefits from any diet or exercise.
01-18-2014 04:32 PM
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Walderschmidt Offline
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RE: Less than 7/8 hours of sleep causes permanent brain damage?
(01-18-2014 04:32 PM)MrLemon Wrote:  Remember that, before 1910 and the invention of the electric light bulb, people got zillions of hours of sleep. 10 to 12 hours at least in the winter. Candles and gas lamps were extremely feeble. Insomnia wasn't even a recognized word.

The invention of the electric bulb changed human biology more than anything else in history, and almost nobody has even bothered to study it.


PS. The "Paleo Diet" crap is meaningless unless accompanied by Paleo Sleep. The damage from lack of sleep overrides any benefits from any diet or exercise.

And the eight hour work day.

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01-18-2014 04:35 PM
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MrLemon Offline
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RE: Less than 7/8 hours of sleep causes permanent brain damage?
(01-18-2014 03:08 PM)Laurifer Wrote:  My bad habit is laying in bed with my laptop prior to going to sleep. I usually end up being up much later than is good for me. I spent almost this entire week sleep deprived and tired at work. Yet when I get home I am some how able to stay up late. I probably average 7 hours of sleep but feel like I should get 9.

I need to get back to my old routine of reading before bed instead of being on my laptop.

Laptops/TVs/iphones in bed are evil. I actually almost had a nervous breakdown because of it. Was getting prescribed tranquilizers (more evil). Once you hit the age of 45 or so, you body chemistry is no longer robust enough to handle it.

Finally stopped using electronics 3 hours before bed and got more exercise, used only candles 1 hour before bed. In bed religiously at 9:30, don't care what else is happening in the world. More exercise and better food of course.
(This post was last modified: 01-18-2014 04:54 PM by MrLemon.)
01-18-2014 04:40 PM
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cardguy Offline
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Post: #9
RE: Less than 7/8 hours of sleep causes permanent brain damage?
"I need 8 hours sleep a day... and ten at night." - Bill Hicks
(This post was last modified: 01-18-2014 04:48 PM by cardguy.)
01-18-2014 04:47 PM
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cardguy Offline
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RE: Less than 7/8 hours of sleep causes permanent brain damage?
"I never drink coffee - I find it keeps me awake during the day." - Ronald Reagan
(This post was last modified: 01-18-2014 04:52 PM by cardguy.)
01-18-2014 04:48 PM
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bacan Offline
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RE: Less than 7/8 hours of sleep causes permanent brain damage?
Stopping electronics long before bed is so smart. I have been trying to get in that routine too
01-18-2014 05:12 PM
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TheKantian Offline
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RE: Less than 7/8 hours of sleep causes permanent brain damage?
Sleep is one of the mysteries that hasn't been solved yet.

Look up sleep hygiene if you are serious about getting a good night's sleep. It's even more important the older you get since sleep quality usually diminishes.

I think sleep hygiene should be taught in school with other health topics.
01-18-2014 06:07 PM
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RE: Less than 7/8 hours of sleep causes permanent brain damage?
When I was a forest ranger, was when I got the best sleep of my life.
No tv service, no internet, barely any radio signal. Coffee in the morning tasted wonderful, food cooked in the fireplace was great. Sure it got boring sometimes at night, but that's what ecology interns are for. Plus they liked being in a private cabin instead of those shitty dorms.
01-18-2014 08:14 PM
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Tytalus Offline
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RE: Less than 7/8 hours of sleep causes permanent brain damage?
Wow. I've known for years that I should sleep better, but now I'll make it a much bigger priority.
01-19-2014 02:38 AM
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mental Offline
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RE: Less than 7/8 hours of sleep causes permanent brain damage?
I always try to sleep at least 7 hours - if I sleep less I feel tired and lazy after 4-5 hours and have to do a hour or two of naps, if I don't I get very sleepy sometimes before 1 am (no choice in the matter, unfortunately) and in the morning (about 9-10 hours later) everything's back to normal, though with zinc I need less sleep - 7 and a half hours now makes me better than 8-9 hours before when I didn't use zinc.

Check out my thread Essential android tools for modern players and alphas to find out how to make your android phone your wingman, or click here and scroll down if you only need to root it.


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(This post was last modified: 01-19-2014 11:22 AM by mental.)
01-19-2014 11:21 AM
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cardguy Offline
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RE: Less than 7/8 hours of sleep causes permanent brain damage?
Must say - it has been awhile since I skipped a nights sleep. So maybe I am losing my stamina in this area.

Also - the interesting thing is that lack of sleep makes for quite an interesting drug. You can get weird emotional highs from going without sleep. And once you go through 'the wall' - you can become quite hyper.

The band 'My Bloody Valentine' recorded the album 'Loveless' whilst experimenting with sleep deprivation. Some people think you can hear the effects of this in the music on the album.

Anyway - the album is considered the most important indie album of all time. So - not a bad return for such an underappreciated drug! :-)

This is my favourite song from that seminal album.



01-19-2014 03:11 PM
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RE: Less than 7/8 hours of sleep causes permanent brain damage?
Any idea if this goes for older folks? My dad, who is in his mid 50s, says it is near impossible for him to sleep more than five hours. Once he is up he's up.

Does the body really need less sleep as it ages? Seems like it should be the opposite.

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(This post was last modified: 01-19-2014 03:15 PM by Kickb.)
01-19-2014 03:14 PM
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cardguy Offline
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RE: Less than 7/8 hours of sleep causes permanent brain damage?
I have accumulated so many random facts about sleep.

Here is another.

Turns out skipping a nights sleep has been proven to be an effective cure for depression.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/articl...depression

Quote:Sleep deprivation is a quick and efficient way to treat depression. It works 60 to 70 percent of the time—far better than existing drugs—but the mood boost usually lasts only until the patient falls asleep.

Sadly it is only a short-term cure. Since your depression 'resets' once you finally crash and go to sleep.

Still - the more you know...
(This post was last modified: 01-19-2014 03:20 PM by cardguy.)
01-19-2014 03:19 PM
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RE: Less than 7/8 hours of sleep causes permanent brain damage?
(01-19-2014 03:19 PM)cardguy Wrote:  Turns out skipping a nights sleep has been proven to be an effective cure for depression.

I think I've experienced this a few times by accident over the years. I got the feeling it's like your brain goes into survival mode. You don't have the energy to commit to "luxuries" like feeling all emo.
(This post was last modified: 01-19-2014 03:34 PM by darklightdispatch.)
01-19-2014 03:34 PM
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RE: Less than 7/8 hours of sleep causes permanent brain damage?
(01-19-2014 03:34 PM)darklightdispatch Wrote:  
(01-19-2014 03:19 PM)cardguy Wrote:  Turns out skipping a nights sleep has been proven to be an effective cure for depression.

I think I've experienced this a few times by accident over the years. I got the feeling it's like your brain goes into survival mode. You don't have the energy to commit to "luxuries" like feeling all emo.

Yep, I've done this twice. Though it is ineffective when combined with alcohol.

For me it was a combination of completely disrupting my routine and having that 'well what do you know, the sun always does rise again' experience that snapped me out of it.
01-19-2014 04:21 PM
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Vaun Offline
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RE: Less than 7/8 hours of sleep causes permanent brain damage?
my problem is the ipad and phone in the bed, namely social media. I usually scroll away on instagram, Twitter and Facebook, it eats away my reading time. I always get in bed with the intention of reading, but social takes it away. I am strictly kindle now, so its more of a struggle. My last LTR would never sleep, always calling and texting after midnight, 1-2am, its a big reason why I dumped her.
01-19-2014 04:22 PM
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RE: Less than 7/8 hours of sleep causes permanent brain damage?
(01-19-2014 04:22 PM)puckman Wrote:  my problem is the ipad and phone in the bed, namely social media. I usually scroll away on instagram, Twitter and Facebook, it eats away my reading time. I always get in bed with the intention of reading, but social takes it away. I am strictly kindle now, so its more of a struggle. My last LTR would never sleep, always calling and texting after midnight, 1-2am, its a big reason why I dumped her.

...interesting, I have seen this as well. Has anyone else seen this? I have never met a woman (without kids) that goes to bed at a reasonable hour and gets up early by choice. I should also qualify that these women are canadian or american.
01-19-2014 08:11 PM
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MrLemon Offline
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RE: Less than 7/8 hours of sleep causes permanent brain damage?
It's Paleo sleep for me. Candles and meditation by 9:30. Computer and iphone disappear.

There was an interesting discussion about the frequency of light. Some claim that new florescent bulbs emit more of the specific wavelength of light that destroys Melatonin, which is the hormone that sets the sleep clock.

So not only the invention of the electric light bulb, but now, the switch to all florescent, energy-saving bulbs, may be creating a public health disaster.

Note that old style incandescent bulbs are now illegal in the US. Heh. I wonder if there is a way to make money off this...
01-19-2014 08:58 PM
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RE: Less than 7/8 hours of sleep causes permanent brain damage?
You should try some blue-blocking orange glasses if you absolutely need to use the tablet/computer late at night.

They block the blue wavelengths that keep you awake and which delay your sleep cycle. Better than f.lux IMO.
01-19-2014 09:03 PM
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RE: Less than 7/8 hours of sleep causes permanent brain damage?
(01-19-2014 09:03 PM)RexImperator Wrote:  You should try some blue-blocking orange glasses if you absolutely need to use the tablet/computer late at night.

They block the blue wavelengths that keep you awake and which delay your sleep cycle. Better than f.lux IMO.

never have seen those, have to try them. want to get a new paperwhite kindle, supposedly there is a low light pre bed setting
01-19-2014 09:05 PM
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