Post: #76

I'd like to show a quick video here that is very, VERY relevant to the topic at hand. It shows a workshop that very clearly displays the differences in what young black men and young black women desire in a mate.

Watch it-the footage is invaluable.






Summary: Black men and women talk candidly about what they want in mates. They're all teens from typical backgrounds.

Black women list qualities they want in their ideal man.

Black men list the qualities of their ideal woman.

The video essentially shows the "most black women want thugs" phenomenon more clearly than anything else I've seen.

Post: #77

My 10 cents and a nickel

LOL @ you have to be tough talk. Am I dating a fucking klingon? No Wharf-mo? The problem is that you have all these scorned black mothers raising these kids to be hostile because some dude either cheated, left, or wouldn't commit to her ass. So they pass that shit on to the children. That's why ppl like T.O. and Ochocinco act like little Diva's because they grew up in single parent households raised by women. It never fails me to hear the media bashing one of these guys and once you do a little research find out they were raised in single parent home by a mother...

But it's only gonna get worse for them as black males get mobile and travel abroad...they ain't gonna want to deal with that shit....now let me be clear..I love black women...but only the kind that know how to fall back...which is surprisingly very few..

Post: #78

(06-04-2011 04:49 AM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  EDIT: Did some extra research and found that this guy might be a recent immigrant. Could be a visa/residency thing. Live with the fattie(and her leftovers, which can feed you), and get permanent residency?

Still seems absurd to me.

When you are trying to come out of a third world country, fcuking a whale means nothing if you can get the visa..I'm not sure how it seems absurd..it makes perfect sense..I've seen tons of cases where it happens, I explained the rationale to a single black female friend of mine who was pissed at the whole phenomenon..

Post: #79

(06-05-2011 03:01 PM)Caramel Communist Wrote:  But it's only gonna get worse for them as black males get mobile and travel abroad...they ain't gonna want to deal with that shit....now let me be clear..I love black women...but only the kind that know how to fall back...which is surprisingly very few..

It is the black american woman to whom these negative realities most clearly apply. They are, as txbeachbum said, a special breed.

The thing is that there are only 40 million black americans. Latin America ALONE has around four times that number of blacks, and that's before you count Africa, the English speaking Caribbean, or the diaspora in Europe and the Middle East.

Black American men who still want good black women don't need to worry-there are plenty available outside of this country, hundreds of millions in fact. Its black American women who should be concerned.

Post: #80

(06-05-2011 03:02 PM)Moma Wrote:  

(06-04-2011 04:49 AM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  EDIT: Did some extra research and found that this guy might be a recent immigrant. Could be a visa/residency thing. Live with the fattie(and her leftovers, which can feed you), and get permanent residency?

Still seems absurd to me.

When you are trying to come out of a third world country, fcuking a whale means nothing if you can get the visa..I'm not sure how it seems absurd..it makes perfect sense..I've seen tons of cases where it happens, I explained the rationale to a single black female friend of mine who was pissed at the whole phenomenon..

You're right. That was my own bias stemming from my never having known such an existence speaking. Dealing with a land whale like that is unfathomable to me in any instance, but I've never lived the life that many of these immigrants have. I can respect that.

Post: #81

(06-05-2011 02:13 PM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  The video essentially shows the "most black women want thugs" phenomenon more clearly than anything else I've seen.

Athlone,

These girls DO NOT say that they want thugs.

They describe their ideal man as..."chocolate, with dreads, good skin, no kids, nice body, nice teeth, nice smile, money, strong, respectful, can cook/clean, can dance, honest, gangsta, nice, bad man, and their mother raised them right"

Remember, these are teenagers from Bed-Stuy. Its not like we are getting this report from Beyonce, Gabrielle Union, Alicia Keys, Halle Berry, and Oprah.

We are getting the opinion of teenagers who are probably from the projects. Take what they say with a grain of salt.

Its like going to a poor white trailer park and interviewing some teenagers there. Their perspective is not white America.

A few teenagers in the projects do not represent black America. These kids can not even agree on their list of qualities. Plus, the video is edited so we don't hear the whole discussion, only parts of it.

One girl says that they want a "gangsta" but then they argue over the definition of "gangsta". They say that a "gangsta" is not someone in a gang but someone is "thorough". They clearly don't mean "gangsta" in a criminal sense. They mean a man with a strong belief in himself and his mission.

One guy even says.."Why is gangsta even up there?"

When they say they want a "bad man", aren't they just using Caribbean slang that basically means "strong man".

And as far as tattoos, teenage girls of all races and classes like guys with tattoos. Nowadays, tattoos are really nothing more then a fashion accessory. They are no longer and indicator of prison time, gang affiliation, and street life. Everybody has them nowadays.

All races of girls like the "bad boy" thing. It doesn't mean they literally want a "bad" person. Its more of a "look" and a style that happens to be "cool".

One girl even compliments a guy for being a "gentlemen". And another girl says having "dreads" on the list is stupid. And like I said before, a few of them agree that it is stupid to have the word "gangsta" on that list.

The girls all agree that they want a man whose..."mother raised him right"

Imo, this video really doesn't say much. You can't form an opinion about black America based what a few teenagers have to say.

Post: #82

(06-05-2011 04:06 PM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  Black American men who still want good black women don't need to worry-there are plenty available outside of this country, hundreds of millions in fact. Its black American women who should be concerned.

Yep. Looking at that video posted above just reminded me of how much I just don't like the mannerisms of ghetto black girls here. From the way they dress to the way they talk. The women in that video were so damn masculine and uncouth. Compare to this chic from Zimbabwe at 5:30 in: http://www.youtube.com/user/MyBlackAtlas...h3LzSlRbPo

I'd much prefer a black girl from outside the U.S. No doubt about it.

Post: #83

You have to look at the ages of these black women before making a generalization for the rest of their lives. If it's one thing I learned is that most younger females want the daring rebellious guy. When females are young, everybody is living with parents/guardians and none of the real life day-to-day issues come up for women to select men already "established".

Let me explain and I will use my moniker on this board in my explanation. The "nerd" of my name comes from me being a Math/Computer Science major in college. Now as high-school student and even the first 2 years of college, there stereotypes that comes with being in that major is not that enduring to the women.

Fast-Forward to me being in the last semester of college......

It became a little more easier for me to meet women on campus when I was wearing those suits and coming from the career services building at my school....or on my way to the airport for some job interview. Now I still struggled in my early 20's but it was better than high-school.

Fast-forward to my late-20's...

By now, chicks have Bride Magazine being sent to their homes. They are seeing their girlfriends get married. They have an absent baby-father, etc....so GUESS WHO is looking good now? The female's "priority lists" have changed and now stability and hopes of a nice house a picket fence is higher on the list.

The ISSUE is...do you WANT them by then? I agree with some of the other postings, black women from other countries will sure SPOIL you once you start traveling.

Post: #84

(06-05-2011 04:41 PM)Giovonny Wrote:  Athlone,

These girls DO NOT say that they want thugs.

They describe their ideal man as..."chocolate, with dreads, good skin, no kids, nice body, nice teeth, nice smile, money, strong, respectful, can cook/clean, can dance, honest, gangsta, nice, bad man, and their mother raised them right"

Honest and respectful...but with dreads, tattoos, "gangsta" and a "bad man".

In other words, a gangster who isn't in a gang. He needs to look and behave like a thug (that is what a "bad man" does in Jamaican slang), but somehow must also be honest and respectful.
They want thugs, just without the typical downsides of jail time, domestic abuse and/or early death.

Quote:Remember, these are teenagers from Bed-Stuy. Its not like we are getting this report from Beyonce, Gabrielle Union, Alicia Keys, Halle Berry, and Oprah.

Because Beyonce, Halle Berry and Oprah(read: a bunch of famous celebrity multi millionaires) would provide an opinion far closer and more representative of the norm in black America than would actual residents of these black communities?

That makes no sense.

Then again, if you must to hear what Beyonce thinks...

Quote:We are getting the opinion of teenagers who are probably from the projects. Take what they say with a grain of salt.

Its like going to a poor white trailer park and interviewing some teenagers there. Their perspective is not white America.

Not comparable if you know anything about socio-economic ratios.

Most black Americans are urban and/or middle class or lower. Most whites are suburbanites, middle to upper-middle class or above.
When you go to a working class inner city community and talk to blacks there, you're talking to the common denominator within that demographic. There are not as many poor whites as there are poor blacks(proportionally). Blacks earn far, far less than whites do on average.

This is a lot closer to "normal" than you think.

This is aside from the fact that the entirety of black media glorifies the lifestyle/appearance/imagery of the "gangsta"/"bad man" and black women are generally known (as txbeachbum and several others here have attested) to respond favorably only to men who've shown developed characteristics honed in actual "hard" environments (as txbeachbum said "not acting hard, being hard due to environment") and have very little tolerance for "softness" (unlike average white or asian women).

I don't know what more evidence you need. Black american women want guys who either are or look like thugs. They seek and they reward the closest representations they can find on average, and are not very tolerant of men who stray to far from these aggressive, direct and "hard" personas.

Quote:One girl says that they want a "gangsta" but then they argue over the definition of "gangsta". They say that a "gangsta" is not someone in a gang but someone is "thorough". They clearly don't mean "gangsta" in a criminal sense. They mean a man with a strong belief in himself and his mission.

That isn't what it means at all.

What they actually want is a man with the appearance(dreads, tatoos, etc) and demeanor of a "gangsta"/"bad man" along with much of the attitude(and, somehow, a ton of money), minus the potential for jail time.
In practice, such men are nonexistant, so they settle usually end up with the next best thing(actual thugs or wanna be thugs who usually aren't rich).

In other words, they want a criminal who doesn't commit crimes, a thug who isn't a thug, and a gangster who isn't gangbanging. He looks, walks, talks, and behaves like a gangsta but somehow isn't one(and is rich).

They want gangstas, just not the jail time/violence that comes with them. In practice, they usually tolerate this, which is why these real life thugs/"bad men" produce so many offspring, often with several women.

Quote:When they say they want a "bad man", aren't they just using Caribbean slang that basically means "strong man".

In Jamaica, that term is most commonly used to reference actual gangsters or criminals, and is also applied loosely to men who resemble them and their mannerisms.

In other words, they want a man who looks and acts the part. The closer you get, the better.

Quote:And as far as tattoos, teenage girls of all races and classes like guys with tattoos. Nowadays, tattoos are really nothing more then a fashion accessory. They are no longer and indicator of prison time, gang affiliation, and street life. Everybody has them nowadays.

Exactly how many average white/asian girls do you know who, if you asked them to list the qualities of their ideal man, would put "tattoos" that high on their list? Of all the white/asian girls you have known with boyfriends, how many of the men have had tattoos?

Are you also going to tell me that, proportionally, there are as many white/asian males with tats(and, for those who do have them, tattoos that are as extensive) as there are in the average predominantly black, urban community? Will you say that your average white kid is as tatted up as your average urban black kid(keeping in mind that 70% of blacks live in urban areas)?

If you really think that this bad boy worship is as exaggerated in white america as it is in the black community, you're being delusional.

Quote:All races of girls like the "bad boy" thing. It doesn't mean they literally want a "bad" person. Its more of a "look" and a style that happens to be "cool".

I have no patience for this type of logic anymore as it is not grounded in reality.

Black American women are by far the most hypergamous group of females in this country. Their standards for "alpha" behavior, monetary status and outward appearance/demeanor(swag) are higher than you will find in other groups. They demand "harder" men and are far more aggressive in their repulsion when they don't find men who meet said requirements. That's been backed up again and again in this thread and in a host of other empirical sources-all I needs is a camera and a trip to my local black community to prove it, and I live in frikkin upstate NY.

If you think that there is not a clear and significant difference here between black american and white/asian/many foreign women when it comes to this (blatantly obvious) worship of and desire for the "gangster" imagery, then I have oceanfront property in Atlanta to sell you. You might as well be living in la-la-land.

Black american women want harder(that'll include many "thug" personas) men, period.

Quote:The girls all agree that they want a man whose..."mother raised him right"

...who still somehow looks and behaves just like a real "bad man".

Quote:Imo, this video really doesn't say much. You can't form an opinion about black America based what a few teenagers have to say.

My opinion has been formed from MUCH more evidence than this. The video is simply among the more succinct portrayals out there of this mentality.

Post: #85

(06-05-2011 06:56 PM)UrbanNerd Wrote:  You have to look at the ages of these black women before making a generalization for the rest of their lives. If it's one thing I learned is that most younger females want the daring rebellious guy. When females are young, everybody is living with parents/guardians and none of the real life day-to-day issues come up for women to select men already "established".

Let me explain and I will use my moniker on this board in my explanation. The "nerd" of my name comes from me being a Math/Computer Science major in college. Now as high-school student and even the first 2 years of college, there stereotypes that comes with being in that major is not that enduring to the women.

Fast-Forward to me being in the last semester of college......

It became a little more easier for me to meet women on campus when I was wearing those suits and coming from the career services building at my school....or on my way to the airport for some job interview. Now I still struggled in my early 20's but it was better than high-school.

Fast-forward to my late-20's...

By now, chicks have Bride Magazine being sent to their homes. They are seeing their girlfriends get married. They have an absent baby-father, etc....so GUESS WHO is looking good now? The female's "priority lists" have changed and now stability and hopes of a nice house a picket fence is higher on the list.

The ISSUE is...do you WANT them by then? I agree with some of the other postings, black women from other countries will sure SPOIL you once you start traveling.

I completely agree with this-most of what I'm saying here applies to women who are under 25, before they are forced to wise up. I already know I won't want them, but they certainly do have a "change of heart".

Dunno if you've seen this vid, but it might be quite relevant to you:





This is the precursor video, also highly recommended:

Post: #86

(06-05-2011 04:55 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  

(06-05-2011 04:06 PM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  Black American men who still want good black women don't need to worry-there are plenty available outside of this country, hundreds of millions in fact. Its black American women who should be concerned.

Yep. Looking at that video posted above just reminded me of how much I just don't like the mannerisms of ghetto black girls here. From the way they dress to the way they talk. The women in that video were so damn masculine and uncouth. Compare to this chic from Zimbabwe at 5:30 in: http://www.youtube.com/user/MyBlackAtlas...h3LzSlRbPo

Well played, sir. I'm subscribing to that channel. That zimbabwean girl was fine!
Embedded for you:

Post: #87

(06-05-2011 07:35 PM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  

(06-05-2011 04:55 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  

(06-05-2011 04:06 PM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  Black American men who still want good black women don't need to worry-there are plenty available outside of this country, hundreds of millions in fact. Its black American women who should be concerned.

Yep. Looking at that video posted above just reminded me of how much I just don't like the mannerisms of ghetto black girls here. From the way they dress to the way they talk. The women in that video were so damn masculine and uncouth. Compare to this chic from Zimbabwe at 5:30 in: http://www.youtube.com/user/MyBlackAtlas...h3LzSlRbPo

Well played, sir. I'm subscribing to that channel. That zimbabwean girl was fine!
Embedded for you:

I agree 100%. That girl is actually feminine and sexy, which is interesting considering she's seemingly successful too.

Post: #88

Correction ....being hard, tough or whatever has nothing to do with looking the part.

You can be a cold blood killer (ie. mafia) and dress like a gentleman it's just that is what is portrayed by the media, that black men wear their pants hanging down to their knees and black women dress like hoochies, while paying no attention to the white kids skateboarder type who wear sagggin skinny jeans and white girls who wear those awful but very very shut cut of jean skirts.

Most of the people on the welfare system are white. Now blacks do lag in income and wealth no question.

I think some of you misread what it means to be tough or hard, or direct it has nothing to with the way you dress. It is 100% mental toughness I am referring too, no matter what economic class you come from.

I had the luxury of seeing both sides of the coin being spending half my youth in rough detroit neighborhoods & public schools and the other half living in very affluent areas and my classmates (at private school) & neighbors were some of the wealthiest people in the state or nation. Many CEO's CFO, etc , professional athletes were and are still are my neighbors growing up.

Which gives me a very unique perspective that I can relate to both ghetto black women and the upper class, and both react very well to DIRECT game, no bS beating around the bush. Even the ones that grow up around all white girls still respond to the game, it's not necessarily a blk or white thing it is a man thing, take control and be a man.

It doesn't mean you have to dress like 50 cent or wakaflaka to be a thug, most women blk or wht who judge men based only on their very limited criteria of (dreadlocks, gold teeth, etc, etc) usually fall for the fake ass wanna be guys.

Just like all those fake ass africans, hatians over in europe and other countries imitating what they see on american tv, claiming cities and sets (gang banging) they haven't seen or been too.

You got some clowns in Hati claiming 8 mile..

And speaking of the examples of Halle Barry, Oprah and Beyonce are bad examples.

Halle Barry - can't keep a man if her life depended on it 2 marriages, etc

Oprah is questionable gay

Beyonce is from Houston, TX a ghetto ass city and married Jay-z (former drug dealer) hmm... You know why because he is a business man and has that street edge he's not all Bryant Gumbel and not all wackaflack he can handle him self in both arenas street/boardroom


And curious "Athlone McGinnis" where are you from, Europe?


And black women are no different than the many top white women (looks wise) who marry and /or get treated like shit from the bad boy rock stars no difference at all, the white thugs do all kinds of drugs, beat women, do whatever, wear makeup, nail polish etc vs black ones who wear tons of gold, flashy cars, dreadlocks etc.....same shit different toilet.

Post: #89

(06-05-2011 10:59 PM)txbeachbum Wrote:  Correction ....being hard, tough or whatever has nothing to do with looking the part.

You can be a cold blood killer (ie. mafia) and dress like a gentleman it's just that is what is portrayed by the media, that black men wear their pants hanging down to their knees and black women dress like hoochies, while paying no attention to the white kids skateboarder type who wear sagggin skinny jeans and white girls who wear those awful but very very shut cut of jean skirts.

I agree that one can be "hard" without dressing like a stereotypical thug. That being said, there is no question that said appearances (often deemed to be a part of one's "swag" in the modern lexicon) do still carry quite a bit of weight with the average young black american community.
Within many of these communities young men are expected to "look the part" to at least some degree (that is simply how the fashion/social trends go there), and many young women do expect to see it pulled off well.

Quote:Most of the people on the welfare system are white.

On a per-capita basis (that is to say, after one has adjusted for the statistical fact that white americans outnumber blacks by a multiple slightly greater than five), blacks are more represented within the ranks of welfare recipients.

Quote:Which gives me a very unique perspective that I can relate to both ghetto black women and the upper class, and both react very well to DIRECT game, no bS beating around the bush. Even the ones that grow up around all white girls still respond to the game, it's not necessarily a blk or white thing it is a man thing, take control and be a man.

I have absolutely no question that all black american women respond the same way to that type of game. Read through all the ranting I did above and you might just find a couple of references to that(at least I think I mentioned it). I thoroughly believe that this phenomenon with black american women that I keep talking about transcends class.

Keep in mind that I attend an Ivy League school. Most of the black girls here are "upper class", and even the few who don't have money certainly have a high degree of intellect. All of them are very bright and (relatively) nerdy.

I can speak from firsthand experience when I say that none of that makes any difference. They're just as hypergamous(demanding for swagger, "hard" men, etc) as the rest of them, regardless of the IQ or the economic status. They're a little smarter about their approach(ex. you won't see them getting knocked up early as often as many young black women do in the US), but the mentality is still broadly similar.

As for it just being a man thing, I find that hard to believe. Consider your descriptions of the type of "game" you grew up learning, and how that is pretty typical of the average young black male's education on the fairer sex.

Now consider how the average white or asian male approaches women. Will you tell me most white/asian men, on average, are as aggressive, direct, and forward as you've been taught to be? Would you contend that, by the age of 25, the average white/asian man has spent thousands of hours in malls just looking for girls, and racked up 1000+ approaches and/or numbers? You think that they have the same approach to women on average?

If the answer is no (it ought to be), then you have your conclusion. There are cultural differences here. You said it yourself when you mentioned that white girls tended to be more "indirect".
The average black male must be more direct and aggressive when approaching the average black american female, because she'll tolerate nothing less. Thousands of approaches and the like are necessary for your average black male to get a shot with your average black american female, because she has far less tolerance for "softness", "nice guyisms" and inexperience/trepidation than others.

Other women(this includes black women from outside of the USA) have very different criteria, and can be reached by different(and what many black women would consider "softer") males and approaches.

Quote:Beyonce is from Houston, TX a ghetto ass city and married Jay-z (former drug dealer) hmm... You know why because he is a business man and has that street edge he's not all Bryant Gumbel and not all wackaflack he can handle him self in both arenas street/boardroom

And that type of "thug-ceo" is what most black women want. Those young black girls in the video pretty much drew that picture("we want him honest, respectful, raised right...and gangsta, bad man, with tattoos").

Problem is that they're nearly nonexistant. Unless you are Beyonce (or of a very similar caliber), it isn't happening.
Black women don't seem to figure this out until they begin to pass their prime(25 and up) and/or they've already been run through/impregnated as a result of their older habits during their prime.

Quote:And curious "Athlone McGinnis" where are you from, Europe?

I am Jamaican, St. Vincentian, and British. I was born in the US, but spent most of my early life living in Jamaica where half of my family remains. My mother was born in England and spent most of her youth there(Jamaican grand parents emigrated to the UK and had her there), where the other half of my family still is. She came to the US for grad school, met my father(from St. Vincent-never seen him in person) and stayed, so here I am.

To keep it simple: I am not culturally Black american(which I suspect was the main gist of your question), and legally I am a European(citizen of Great Britain, and by extension the rest of the EU). Athlone is an Irish name.

Quote:And black women are no different than the many top white women (looks wise) who marry and /or get treated like shit from the bad boy rock stars no difference at all, the white thugs do all kinds of drugs, beat women, do whatever, wear makeup, nail polish etc vs black ones who wear tons of gold, flashy cars, dreadlocks etc.....same shit different toilet.

Perhaps, but I don't think the "shit" is quite the same.

You've compared a small portion of the white population(a proportion of the small number of "top" white women) to the general black female populace.
At the end of the day, my conclusion holds. When comparing the general black american female populace with other groups, there is just a far higher prevalence of overall thug/bad boy worship. It is ingrained within modern black american culture.

People can dispute this, but then you may as well contend that grass is not green and planes aren't meant to fly.

Post: #90

Athlone,

I agree with most of what you say. Take this as food for thought..

Go to the hood and interview teenage girls of any race. White, Black, Latino, Asian, they will all say that they want the "bad boy" type, Thats all they know. Put them in a different environment for a while and their perspective might change.

Maybe your right, the whole "bad boy" thing is more exaggerated in Black America. But, I don't really think its about race. I think its about environment. Go to any tough neighborhood and the girls will value tough guys. In gritty White neighborhoods, the girls like the "hard" dudes. Its no different.

I have dated quite a few black girls that thought the whole gangsta look and attitude was played out.

But I live in California, which might have something to do with it. Out here the only people who try to dress and act like gangstas are the real gangstas. Well, thats not entirely true, we do have our share on wanna-bes.

But outside of the hood, I just don't see alot of black guys dressing like gangstas, the girls will call them clowns.
Out here blacks guys do better when they just dress with style and fashion sense.

That Beyonce song is a "hip hop anthem" not a Black American anthem. That song is for the kids in the hood and the "gangsta rap" audience. Its not supposed to represent the entire race of women.

The hood doesn't define black people. Hip Hop culture doesn't define Black people. There is alot more to the story.

(06-06-2011 12:48 AM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  I have absolutely no question that all black american women respond the same way to that type of game.

How do you know this? Did you grow up in various black neighborhoods throughout the US? Have you been running "thug game" on black chicks for years?

You didn't even grow up in America..

(06-06-2011 12:48 AM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  I am Jamaican, St. Vincentian, and British. I was born in the US, but spent most of my early life living in Jamaica

And you go to an Ivy League school!

You are a college kid who didn't grow up in Black America. I'm not sure you have enough experience living in Black America to really understand the whole picture of what is going on and why. Not saying that I am, but I have been living with, working with, and interacting with Black Americans since 1984.

(06-06-2011 12:48 AM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  To keep it simple: I am not culturally Black american

Thats why you have a limited perspective on the Black American culture. Contrary to what you might see in the media, its more them just gangstas and big bootys.

You probably know more about American White girls with all those pictures you be postin!!

Post: #91

(06-06-2011 03:46 AM)Giovonny Wrote:  Maybe your right, the whole "bad boy" thing is more exaggerated in Black America. But, I don't really think its about race. I think its about environment.

Have you noted how many times within this thread I have stated that all of this specifically applies to black American women? Here, let me show you:

(06-05-2011 04:06 PM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  It is the black american woman to whom these negative realities most clearly apply. They are, as txbeachbum said, a special breed.

The thing is that there are only 40 million black americans. Latin America ALONE has around four times that number of blacks, and that's before you count Africa, the English speaking Caribbean, or the diaspora in Europe and the Middle East.

Black American men who still want good black women don't need to worry-there are plenty available outside of this country, hundreds of millions in fact. Its black American women who should be concerned.

(05-15-2011 02:22 PM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  Trust me when I say that, compared to other populations of black girls in Africa, The Caribbean, Latin America and Europe, American black girls are an ENTIRELY different animal to deal with.
Many of the bad things guys are saying about them here and on many other sites online are unique to them as a population group, and don't apply as consistently to the other half a billion black women on Earth.

I've been pretty clear and consistent here.

If I am insisting on most of these trends applying primarily to 3-4% of the world's black population (40 million African-Americans out of about a billion blacks worldwide), then I think it is safe to say that I am not claiming this to be a racial problem. None of this is biologically innate.

Quote:That Beyonce song is a "hip hop anthem" not a Black American anthem. That song is for the kids in the hood. Its not supposed to represent the entire race.

Because kids in the hood are the only ones who listen to and support that music? C'mon.

That song(and a host of others like it by Rihanna and other very popular artists) gained popularity because it resonates very strongly with the broader black american culture and those within it. Period. Black American women, by and large, EMPATHIZE with these messages.
Songs do not get that popular without striking some sort of chord, and this one hit an obvious and easily exploitable one.

Quote:The hood doesn't define black people. Hip Hop culture doesn't define Black people. There is alot more to the story.

1. We're talking about black america, not all 1 billion black people on Earth. I have been very clear and specific in outlining this.

2. Hip-Hop culture very well DOES define black Americans quite clearly. That is the most predominent, ovewhelmingly influential force within that particular culture and it exerts a great amount of influence on the most people within it.
That really is the end of the story. Blacks in America who have little or no significant outward or internal connection to this culture are a minority(hence their complaints of frequent insults like "oreo", etc). You can see it in the media, the empirical evidence, and an abundance of socio-economic statistics (supporting a host of trends promoted in hip hop culture).

Again, you can choose to keep ignoring all of this, but that is tantamount to arguing that aircraft are not meant to fly-you'll be fighting an impossible battle.

Quote:You didn't even grow up in America..

Technically, yes I did. I am 20 years old-roughly a quarter of my youth was spent in Jamaica. I've been here for pretty much all the rest of it, long enough to see plenty.

Quote:You are a college kid at an Ivy League school who didn't grow up in Black America. I'm not sure you have enough experience living in Black America to really understand the whole picture of what is going on and why. Not saying that I am, but I have been living with, working with, and interacting with Black Americans since 1985.

Since you are not "culturally Black American " Let me tell you something about the American Black girls, They like a variety of different types of guys. "Gangsta" is not the only type they are attracted to.

Classic argumentum ad-hominem. My international background, age and the school I go to do not invalidate any of my conclusions. I do not have to be culturally black American, nor must I attend a "black school" and live in a "black neighborhood" or what have you in order to make a valid argument pertaining to the status of black America. If you think my argument is invalid(and if your wealth of interaction is as valuable as you say), then you should have no problem eliminating my contentions on the basis of their logic and doing so beyond a shadow of much doubt. That you've not done this says quite a bit about the validity of your own position.

My contention from the very beginning has been as follows: black women are the most hypergamous female group within the US, are generally(read: most commonly) intolerant of "nice guys" and "softness", and the "bad boy" phenomenon is extremely exaggerated within Black American culture, where hip hop predominates. I have also noted, in response to UrbanNerd, that most of what I'm saying applies most strongly to younger black women(under 30) who have not yet gone far past their prime(at which point they are forced to reconsider their views on men in light of declining sexual market value).

You have yet to refute this argument. In fact, you tacitly conceded this point earlier in this, your most recent, post. Logical fallacy will not make your contentions any more valid.

Post: #92

This is a very interesting debate. I kind of agree with Athlone on this but I have never really lived and worked with black Americans in America to get the accurate depiction that would contrast this.

The best way to test the two theories would be to see how much pussy a guy who acts hood and gangsta gets from a black American female as opposed to a guy who acts intellectual and middle class.

I am pretty certain however, I have a black American female friend that I have been talking to on the phone for about a year and change and some of the stuff she says about the type of men her female friends fcuk indicates that the hood swag still drops the panties.

Post: #93

(06-06-2011 04:47 AM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  Technically, yes I did. I am 20 years old-roughly a quarter of my youth was spent in Jamaica. I've been here for pretty much all the rest of it, long enough to see plenty.

Which 5 years? The first five, the second five or the third five? Was your time achieved all in one swoop or was it a year here, a year there to add up to five?

Post: #94

(06-06-2011 10:25 AM)Moma Wrote:  

(06-06-2011 04:47 AM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  Technically, yes I did. I am 20 years old-roughly a quarter of my youth was spent in Jamaica. I've been here for pretty much all the rest of it, long enough to see plenty.

Which 5 years? The first five, the second five or the third five? Was your time achieved all in one swoop or was it a year here, a year there to add up to five?

When I was 3 months old, I left for Jamaica. I came back at age 3 for some early schooling, and then went back again at age 4 until I was about 6.

I hadn't actually included the additional time spent visiting the island. I've had several stints in the country(and briefly in England) since then(3 months here, 4 months there, etc). You can add about another year of cumulative time if you include those for six/twenty total years.
In other words, my formative years came overseas-most of my later life has been spent in the US.

Quote:The best way to test the two theories would be to see how much pussy a guy who acts hood and gangsta gets from a black American female as opposed to a guy who acts intellectual and middle class.

Go to any American Historically Black College/University or any college with a sizeable black population. Or, if you prefer, go to black high schools nd their surrounding communities. Spend a few months there and just watch-my arguments proves itself.

Why people remain in denial about it is a mystery to me. And they wonder why no change and/or improvements are made socio-economically for blacks. How will you fix problems if you can't see them (this "gangsta worship" from the women is a symptom of much bigger issues)?

Post: #95

This shit isn't rocket science, you dudes seriously are thinking too much. It's a numbers game that's all.

Like I said #1 advice be direct!!!!!!!

[/quote]

I absolutely agree with the above statement! It is as much about numbers as anything else. I have always felt that if a average looking, clean guy, with up to date clothing, approached 100 girls that look similar to, say, Hayden Panettiere, eventually he'd get one! (Incidentally, I think Hayden Panettiere is the Gold Standard of American beauty! Lol) Also, I don't think the guys on this forum are overthinking it. I think most guys on here realize it's, for the most part, a numbers game. The issue is, how does one improve oneself or ones odds to the point where they don't have to approach a 100 hot girls just to get 1?!? I think that's the basis of this forum. To give guys a guide to places they can go to where they are the commodity. It also gives guys a little insight on the attitude and personality traits that makes men more successful with women.

Concerning American Black women, I think it's pretty much undeniable that they are more attracted to a roughneck guy, than not. Sadly, I think that women of other races that are attracted to black men, are generally looking for that roughneck quality as well. It would stand to reason, since a white girl, who hasn't grown up around black men, yet is attracted to them, has formed her desire for them from what she has seen on television. Since the images of black men on television are predominately thug/jock/player, that must be the personalities she associates with them, and what she finds attractive. Now, I have met a few white and Latin women who are totally against the 'thug' persona, and date black men simply because they like the way black men look, their color, muscularity, etc., (They type of white and Latina women we should be looking for) However, these aren't as easy to find. You also find a few white and Latin women who have figured out that some black men value them higher than the men of their own race, and get with black guys because of the 'prized' treatment. (Not always a good thing, since this is what causes white and Latin fatties to feel they can still attract a decent looking black man, if nothing else)

Ultimately, if you weren't raised with gehtto swagger, you're going to have to figure out a way to attract women without it. To try and fake it will just make you look like a fool. Anway, I would go so far as to say the higher quality women, black or white, are going to be the ones least requiring thuggish behavior, and the women we should be focusing on. Go after the most classy, intellectual girls, continue to play the numbers and keep in mind that, in many cases, women don't fully know what they want, and will many times simply end up liking the person who like them, thug or nerd!

Post: #96

With black women, looks supersede everything tho. I grew up in the real hood, and I know TONS of thugs that girls would consider ugly that get dissed left and right. And they only end up dating fat, ugly, hoodrat ass women that you certainly wouldnt be envious of.

There are different segments of black America just like any other culture. Normal suburban black girls usually end up dating normal suburban black guys. Black kids in college usually end up dating one another.

The only way a black woman is going out of her way to date what most would consider to be a thug, is if that thug is physically attractive to her.

And another thing, the term "thug" is subjective and relative to what your used to. Since i grew up in the hood, for me to call you a thug, you have to be the baddest of the bad. You need to have been in and out of juvie since Jr High, stolen cars, sold crack or currently doing so, been to prison, have some type of record, and just have that hardened thug ass look. And trust me, guys like that are not snatching up all of the most beautiful black women. They are usually dating some the most undesirable women you'd ever want to meet.

To the average non black person, any black guy that is not an obvious poindexter/nerd, is a thug.

In conclusion, alot of black women do have pretty strict standards and one of those main standards is that you cant be considered lame. Not having style and swag is not acceptable in the real urban black communities.

Post: #97

@Athlone, I'd be careful about insinuating that hiphop culture defines black people. That may generally be true from about the teen years up to the 30s. But most black people 40 and up don't listen to it. They prefer r&b, smooth jazz, etc. I think many in the hiphop crowd will eventually grow out of it and listen to more mature forms of music later.

(06-06-2011 12:10 PM)Urban Renaissance Man Wrote:  Concerning American Black women, I think it's pretty much undeniable that they are more attracted to a roughneck guy, than not.

I would add the caveat that black women in their prime(which to me means early to mid 20s or so) are into the whole roughneck swag thing.

Quote:Sadly, I think that women of other races that are attracted to black men, are generally looking for that roughneck quality as well.

Yes, I found that very true growing up. The non-black girls that liked black dudes were often more gungho on that ghetto swag shit than black girls were.They were probably heavily into hiphop and wanted a man to complete that image.

Quote:Now, I have met a few white and Latin women who are totally against the 'thug' persona, and date black men simply because they like the way black men look, their color, muscularity, etc., (They type of white and Latina women we should be looking for) However, these aren't as easy to find.

Most the non-black women who hate that thug persona usually aren't into black dudes period and prefer either their own race or white guys. They may even simply associate all black men with gangsta subculture in racist fashion.

Quote:You also find a few white and Latin women who have figured out that some black men value them higher than the men of their own race, and get with black guys because of the 'prized' treatment. (Not always a good thing, since this is what causes white and Latin fatties to feel they can still attract a decent looking black man, if nothing else)

Thus that photo of the black man with the beach whale up above. I'm sure it's no coincidence that she's with a black dude. For many non-black women, black men are a last resort. And guys like that with no standards are reinforcing that. I see the black guy/nasty white chic thing all the fucking time. That shit brings down our value.

Quote:Ultimately, if you weren't raised with gehtto swagger, you're going to have to figure out a way to attract women without it.

That's the dilemma we often find ourselves in. I've gone on dates with black women and find I just can't connect with them. I guess I just don't have enough in common. They aren't used to meeting black guys that don't really listen to hiphop and go backpacking in third world countries. They are more into the type of dude that's into all the club hits, watches NBA religiousless, wears hiphop gear, etc. So then we may hit up girls from other races as an alternative and then race makes things more challenging. It's just small minority of non-black women who will take a black dude seriously, and then of those, you want to try to avoid those who fetishize the thug look. And then like mentioned above, you have the steer clear of the uggs and fatties selecting black men as a last resort.

So in the end, I'm aiming either for black girls that basically act white, or attractive non-black girls who like black guys, but don't fetishize us or the hiphop culture. And don't let anyone ever tell you that race doesn't effect your outcome.

Post: #98

(06-06-2011 02:49 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  @Athlone, I'd be careful about insinuating that hiphop culture defines black people. That may generally be true from about the teen years up to the 30s. But most black people 40 and up don't listen to it. They prefer r&b, smooth jazz, etc. I think many in the hiphop crowd will eventually grow out of it and listen to more mature forms of music later.

Yes, I do agree with you. Most of the things I'm talking about apply primarily to the younger set(under 30 or so).

Quote:So then we may hit up girls from other races as an alternative and then race makes things more challenging. It's just small minority of non-black women who will take a black dude seriously, and then of those, you want to try to avoid those who fetishize the thug look.

I find that this is true to an extent. There is an expectation among non-blacks of black male behavior and it often results in "thug" fetishism.

That being said, I would contend that there are still plenty of opportunities out there among other groups for black males, and I'd certainly assert that for a realtively "nerdy/swagless" black male the chances of success greatly improve when focusing on non-black american women.

My personal experience inspired this notion. In high school, I was a complete dork. I won a reputation as "the super nerdy kid"(a reputation I couldn't escape developing even here in college-its innate, I guess). I was very big and I played football, but that was about as stereotypically black as I got. My social anxiety resulted in a near crippling shyness within school. I didn't talk to anyone and i was painfully inept with women as far as approaching went.

And yet even then, as a shy, immature, muscular but still somewhat pudgy 17-18 year old boy, girls were attracted to me. White girls. Not whales or wiggers, mind you, but actually good looking, young, normal white girls. I had several women essentially leave themselves wide open to me(read: telling their friends to ask me to approach, sending clear signals, open flirting, and other things I was too dumb to recognize then) over the course of high school, and all of them (save for one) were solid 7s or above, perfectly decent looking girls. Had I not been a shy social retard, I'd have easily snagged one of them as a girlfriend and probably kept her to this day. Hell, I regret not doing it, but hindsight is 20/20.

In hindsight, I find the reason they were attracted to me stemmed from my demeanor. I am dark skinned, and I look today like a stereotypical college football jock on first sight(5'10, 208 or so, big shoulders, etc-think Willie Parker). Back in high school I was a 230 pound fullback(think Mike Tolbert), and my appearance was even more stereotypical("hulking black male athlete") and perhaps intimidating.

These girls liked me, however, because I had proven myself to be a lot like them. I studied extensively(still do), did very well in school(still do), I sound white(you'd have a hard time telling on the phone) and, thanks to my upbringing within a rather conservative segment of Jamaican(mixed with some British) culture, still maintain a sort of old-school, "nice guy"-ish sort of demeanor(I was a much bigger nice guy in high school).

To keep it simple, my mannerism(speech, approach to work, etc, etc) are such that I appear, act and sound like a 40-something year old white male in a black kid's body.

As girls got to know me, they just got comfortable with it, and were willing to let me know clearly that they were interested. I wasn't a threat to them-I'd "bridged the gap", so to speak. Interacial dating was not rare in my high school. A lot of my black male classmates bridged the gap in their own personal ways, and got(and all still have) cute white/asian/hispanic girlfriends.
Come to think of it, very few of them ever even dated black.

My point is that the gap can be bridged, but it requires more complete assimilation(and some heavy social circle game) than most black males can and/or are willing to do. The formula for getting to the average(read: not ugly/fat or fetishist) white/asian(and some hispanic) girls is essentially the opposite of what works with black american women-less stereotypically "black/thug" is better. The closer you are to them, the easier it is for them to open up to you. Once the girls can see this, you will (at least in my experience) find more options amongst the wider non-black female population.

Quote:And don't let anyone ever tell you that race doesn't effect your outcome.

Absolutely.

Post: #99

Athlone,

I'm enjoying this debate.

(06-06-2011 04:47 AM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  Hip-Hop culture very well DOES define black Americans quite clearly.

Hip Hop culture defines Black Americans quite clearly?

This is where I disagree. Go talk to some Black adults and ask them if they think hip hop defines them. Not black teenagers, talk to some black adults about this.

Hip Hop has only been around since like 1985. If you are a black American over 40, you probably don't even listen to very much Hip Hop. What about all the years of Jazz, Funk, Soul, Doo-Wop, Blues, R&B, etc.

Isn't that stuff part of the Black American experience? You think the Black American experience begins and ends with Hip Hop?

What would these people say about your comments:

Miles Davis
John Coltrane
Little Richard
Chuck Berry
Bo Diddley
Ray Charles
Sam Cooke
Marvin Gaye
The Supremes
Aretha Franklin
Jimi Hendrix
James Brown
Smokey Robinson
Sly & the Family Stone
George Clinton
Roberta Flack
Dionne Warwick
Stevie Wonder
The O'Jays
Gladys Knight
Barry White
Donna Summer
Michael Jackson
Whitney Houston


These people can tall you alot about the Black American experience. They know alot more about it then Lil Wayne and Nikki Minaj.

These people built the foundation that Hip Hop stands on.

Ask Michael Jordan, Muhammad Ali, and Kareem Abdul Jabbar if Hip Hop defines them.

These people were around way before Rap music.

Even Tupac would say that there is much more to Black America then just Hip Hop.

Tupacs mom (Afeni Shakur) would really give you a history lesson about Black America.

Come out to California and go to a major university like UCLA, UC Berkeley, or San Francisco State. You will find black women that appreciate an intelligent, well adjusted, and stylish black man.

And go to a prison sometime and talk to some real gangstas. They will tell you that the gangsta life is mostly a bunch of bullshit and that Black people should be focused on education and wealth building.

I wanna hear President Obamas thoughts on this..

Post: #100

I get what Athlone is trying to say. He may be generalizing to an extent, but that's because he's speaking about black women in 'general.' He obviously can't speak about the individual taste of all 22 million American black women! Hell, many of them don't like men at all! He's speaking in general terms. Generally, the average black person you run into is into Hip Hop. No, I'm not talking about 50 year olds. I'm talking between 18-30. Guess, what, those are the ages that most of the guys on this forum want, so naturally they're going to be the case study!

Honestly, except for the women who fetishize hip hop/thug style and dress (of which there's more than a few!) I think that striking a balance of just being yourself for the most part, while paying attention somewhat to fashion, AND NOT BEING A PUSH OVER, you will come across as manly as you need to. I think men mess up with women more by being too nice and accomodating, rather than not appearing thuggish enough. All being thuggish does is show (poorly) that you're not going to take crap from anyone, her or otherwise, and that you'll defend her, should she need defending. You can convey those qualities without acting or dressing like a ghetto fool!