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How Does a Girl Get Monogamy?
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kimleebj Offline
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Post: #1
How Does a Girl Get Monogamy?
I don't have a good answer, but encountered this question from a two different women recently. Women seek monogamous relationships. They like to feel "trust" and committment before being comfortable and sexually intimate with a man. So after a couple weeks and a few dates, the woman raises the issue. At that point the man knows he will get in, and agrees to monogamy. Then he soon starts dating others. So the girl is screwed, literally.

This seems like a tricky area to navigate. The woman finds an bold alpha guy. She wants to tame him into a monogamous beta. If she holds out on sex too long then the true alphas will leave. It seems unreasonable to expect the man to be faithful for very long before sex.

So the question is, what can a woman do to encourage monogamy? And how can men get through those defenses? I think there is a definite tension, where a woman needs to screen guys and hold out long enough to eliminate most of the guys on this forum (4-6 dates), but not too long. Then she needs to satisfy the guy.
11-10-2011 11:20 PM
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ccurtis189 Offline
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RE: How Does a Girl Get Monogamy?
(11-10-2011 11:20 PM)kimleebj Wrote:  I don't have a good answer, but encountered this question from a two different women recently. Women seek monogamous relationships. They like to feel "trust" and committment before being comfortable and sexually intimate with a man. So after a couple weeks and a few dates, the woman raises the issue. At that point the man knows he will get in, and agrees to monogamy. Then he soon starts dating others. So the girl is screwed, literally.

This seems like a tricky area to navigate. The woman finds an bold alpha guy. She wants to tame him into a monogamous beta. If she holds out on sex too long then the true alphas will leave. It seems unreasonable to expect the man to be faithful for very long before sex.

So the question is, what can a woman do to encourage monogamy? And how can men get through those defenses? I think there is a definite tension, where a woman needs to screen guys and hold out long enough to eliminate most of the guys on this forum (4-6 dates), but not too long. Then she needs to satisfy the guy.

Well to start, she needs to stop going after guys who have no intent on being monogamous, if that's what she truly wants.
11-10-2011 11:41 PM
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iknowexactly Offline
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RE: How Does a Girl Get Monogamy?
The obvious thing is they start pushing marriage. They figure that being married to a guy and living with him will be a pretty effective chick-repellant.

As guys, we have much more open-ended feelings towards our reproductive window. It's pretty rational to wait until 40 or so, I don't think fertility declines that much by then in men. By that age Women are pretty much done. My very healthy 34YO co-worker spent 15k and two operations doing IVF.

So Miss 25YO that you're dealing with, after at most six months of fucking your brains out, is going to want to know what's the deal. She only has a limited number of months-- like 100 or so-- to yoke her Mortgage Buffalo.

She starts subtly herding him into place with sly suggestions, wanton sex so he knows life won't be hell with her, and agitated crying at mentions of breakups or signs you don't "really love her."

Then suddenly one day she's pretty cold-- she knows you aren't going to be paying for the baby she wants.

You don't exist anymore, just like chicks who aren't hot, or who won't put out for you don't exist for you.

Be careful how well you "play" this game-- do you really want to lead on a chick who wants children during her early 30's, so one day she wakes up, realizes it's too late to have kids because she believed you were serious about her?
(This post was last modified: 11-11-2011 02:00 AM by iknowexactly.)
11-11-2011 01:52 AM
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Excelsior Offline
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RE: How Does a Girl Get Monogamy?
Women are in this conundrum because of their own hypergamy which, unfortunately, they largely cannot help (unless societal pressure is added to restrain it, as is still done in much of the more "traditional" developing world and even in more conservative parts of the west).

If they want absolute monogamy, they need to go straight for the monogamous beta at the outset, not the "bold alpha guy".

This is hard for women because, as I said earlier, they are naturally drawn via their hypergamy to the alpha male. Women are mainly drawn to men that other women like, and that draw will often lead them to players or, in the best case scenario, a guy who might not be a super player but who does have plenty of options.
They tend not to pay much mind to the lesser known guys out there who other women aren't as openly crazy/gossipy about or who many other women have not slept with. These are exactly the guys who would give them the monogamy they crave without much work on their part.

Women want that work, though. They would rather try to change/tame the player than go for the sure, steady thing with the quieter/more "beta" dude. This is just how they are wired, and they prove this in millions of little ways every single day. For this reason, they will always have a problem, because the man with options is often a man who can exercise said options, and to try and completely change his desire to do so is to fight a steep uphill battle that, more often than not, girls are going to lose.

So to answer your question about what women can do to encourage monogamy: In theory, they can chase for the more "beta" guy a little more often from the outset, and stop trying to change men who are nothing like what they claim to desire into what they want them to be.

In practice, they can't really do anything and neither can you, since their natural impulse will always lead them to the alpha male and a spot in his harem as they work to "turn him around" and tame the (often) untameable. Their results in these endeavours will never prove favorable (the alpha won't wait 4-6 dates and won't stick around faithfully in a committed relationship for long), but their instincts will probably never allow them to stop putting themselves in that position.
(This post was last modified: 11-11-2011 02:06 AM by Excelsior.)
11-11-2011 02:05 AM
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RE: How Does a Girl Get Monogamy?
I think people are just more prone to hypergamy-like behavior in general.

For example, if your a person working somewhere that's alright and your getting recruiters contacting you 5 times a week, you'll probably start ignoring them after a while out of just fatigue. You have options, but your satisfied enough at your current job and from your previous experience, all of those recruiters will offering your about the same wage and perks anyway. It starts becoming about the company itself that catches your interest. Something at your job starts irking you and then all of a sudden a cool company that contacts you get's your interest. Since the market is tight for people with your skills, the recruiter has to sell you the job and try to 'seduce' you to switch over. They then interview you to see if you actually put out as an employee and then you'll get a job offer. You don't want to switch too much although since you might get a reputation as an 'not loyal' or 'slutty' employee or one that you can't invest too much time into and it might bite you in the ass later on.

This kind of experience is natural with most people who have skills in job markets that are tight and have not many commitments and have to get a job as a full time salaried employee. This is how a woman with options will act in general.
11-11-2011 03:05 AM
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Gmac Offline
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RE: How Does a Girl Get Monogamy?
Women are naturally hypergamous, men are naturally polygamous. It's human nature at its basics. Women screw themselves because they have the unrealistic expectation of snagging an alpha male who they think they can tame. They want to have their cake and eat it too, and they end up angry the man cheated.

The girls I know who are actively seeking out "monogamous" relationships are already the type who think they want to get married.

As for your question: What can a woman do to encourage monogamy? Be feminine. Fill the role that the man wants.

Women have no problem finding men, the problem lies in keeping those men. Women need to "woman up" if that is their goal, because the majority of the girls I've known or been with I would never want to stay with long term. It's on them to make us want to stay.
(This post was last modified: 11-11-2011 09:44 AM by Gmac.)
11-11-2011 09:43 AM
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RE: How Does a Girl Get Monogamy?
[quote='kimleebj' pid='116727' dateline='1320985209']
So the question is, what can a woman do to encourage monogamy?
[quote='kimleebj' pid='116727' dateline='1320985209']

Treat her man like a king. Stay thin and youthful looking. Be a great cook. Serve her man. Don't complain. Bring home other younger women for threesomes. Come from a wealthy family. Please her man sexually.

[quote='kimleebj' pid='116727' dateline='1320985209']
And how can men get through those defenses?
[quote='kimleebj' pid='116727' dateline='1320985209']

Fuck women on the side and not let her find out about it.

Same old shit.
(This post was last modified: 11-11-2011 01:47 PM by Giovonny.)
11-11-2011 01:30 PM
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Lumiere Offline
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RE: How Does a Girl Get Monogamy?
(11-11-2011 09:43 AM)Gmac Wrote:  men are naturally polygamous.

So are women
11-11-2011 01:43 PM
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Giovonny Offline
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RE: How Does a Girl Get Monogamy?
(11-10-2011 11:20 PM)kimleebj Wrote:  So the question is, what can a woman do to encourage monogamy?

Treat her man like a king. Stay thin and feminine. Be a great cook. Come from a wealthy family. Serve her man sexually. Bring home other younger women for threesomes. Don't complain. Do what she's told to do.

(11-10-2011 11:20 PM)kimleebj Wrote:  And how can men get through those defenses?

Fuck other women and don't let her find out about it.
11-11-2011 01:47 PM
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Gmac Offline
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RE: How Does a Girl Get Monogamy?
(11-11-2011 01:43 PM)Lumiere Wrote:  
(11-11-2011 09:43 AM)Gmac Wrote:  men are naturally polygamous.

So are women

Women are more hypergamous than polygamous. Meaning, they're more prone to jump from one man to the next best than to juggle a ton of dudes at the same time like a man would with women.

Let me put it this way: I'm not saying they aren't capable of polygamy, but they're not as inclined to have an ongoing harem like a man would.
(This post was last modified: 11-11-2011 02:11 PM by Gmac.)
11-11-2011 02:10 PM
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Excelsior Offline
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RE: How Does a Girl Get Monogamy?
(11-11-2011 03:05 AM)ersatz Wrote:  I think people are just more prone to hypergamy-like behavior in general.

Men are not sexually hypergamous by nature.

(11-11-2011 01:43 PM)Lumiere Wrote:  
(11-11-2011 09:43 AM)Gmac Wrote:  men are naturally polygamous.

So are women

No, women are hypergamous, which, as GMAC alluded to, is an entirely different thing.

Where as men are polygamous (they desire exclusive sexual access to as many attractive women as they can get at one time), women instead desire the sexual exclusivity of one male: the best male (or the best male she can find at any given time, anyway). She will trade up if an even higher value male passes by and she can get his attention, but at the end of the day she is still only with one mate at a time.

Women tend to focus on the attainment and maintenance of one "alpha male" at a time, not several. If several are available, they simply gravitate to the biggest fish. On the other hand, if several attractive women were available to said alpha male, he would, if he could manage it, attempt to occupy as many of them as he could, preferably all of them. Few men are capable of successfully doing this, though naturally those would tend to be the men women hypergamously gravitate to in any case.

Polygamy and hypergamy are compatible. Women tend to gravitate towards the biggest fish, and men tend to want to secure as many women as they can. Polygamy allows several women access to this big fish, while allowing said male to monopolize sexual access to multiple women. Win-win.

Of course, there are other problems with polygamy and its compatibility with modern civilization, but that's a whole new thread topic.
(This post was last modified: 11-11-2011 02:14 PM by Excelsior.)
11-11-2011 02:13 PM
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Lumiere Offline
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RE: How Does a Girl Get Monogamy?
(11-11-2011 02:10 PM)Gmac Wrote:  Women are more hypergamous than polygamous.

Did not say that they weren't.

I just said that women are naturally polygamous.

You have to distinguish between what is natural behaviour and what is socially normal behaviour.

Polygamy is natural for both men and women.

Social norms dictate that women sell their sexuality in exchange for security which is what encourages hypergamy in women.

This is something which socially conditioned into women in modern society but not inate or natural to human sexuality.
(This post was last modified: 11-11-2011 02:43 PM by Lumiere.)
11-11-2011 02:41 PM
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Excelsior Offline
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RE: How Does a Girl Get Monogamy?
(11-11-2011 02:41 PM)Lumiere Wrote:  
(11-11-2011 02:10 PM)Gmac Wrote:  Women are more hypergamous than polygamous.

Did not say that they weren't.

I just said that women are naturally polygamous.

You have to distinguish between what is natural behaviour and what is socially normal behaviour.

Polygamy is natural for both men and women.

Social norms dictate that women sell their sexuality in exchange for security which is what encourages hypergamy in women.

This is something which is a socially normal in modern society but not natural.

I would contend that hypergamy is natural. The instinct to sell sexuality for security is one that evolved well before human civilization did, and it is one we share in common with all great apes. In fact, such an instinct was likely more expedient prior to the formation of civilization (and things like welfare, military protection, etc). When you take into account the biology of female reproduction (female vulnerability during pregnancy combined with the risk of death involved in carrying a child prior to the invention of modern medicine) and you can understand further why hypergamy was the order of the day. An alpha male was essential for protection and to ensure that her offspring would be high quality enough to justify the risk implicit in baring them.

Women in the state of nature chased the alpha male, just as all great apes did (and still do). Women are not naturally polygamous/polyandrous (read: they do not try to maintain a harem of men), they are hypergamous (they desire the best man they can get).

This is why polyandry is so rare historically and presently across humanity when compared to polygamy, which is still normal in many parts of the world and has been for most of human history.
11-11-2011 02:52 PM
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Lumiere Offline
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RE: How Does a Girl Get Monogamy?
(11-11-2011 02:52 PM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  I would contend that hypergamy is natural. The instinct to sell sexuality for security is one that evolved well before human civilization did. An alpha male was essential for protection and to ensure that her offspring would be high quality enough to justify the risk implicit in baring them.

Hypergamy means essentially trading-up to a richer, more high status guy financially.

Money only arrived after concept of property was invented as a result of the agricultural revolution which means the very concept of property and money is something that is normal but is not natural or inate in human nature.

Even today in modern society, children are not born with any concept of property or money. It is something that they are taught and they are taught it from a very young age.

Therefore hypergamy can only be normal and can not be natural.

(11-11-2011 02:52 PM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  Women in the state of nature chased the alpha male, just as all great apes did (and still do).

The draw of the alpha male certain is something that is natural in female sexuality. Always has been, always will be. We agree on that.

This is due to the desire for genetically high quality offspring and has nothing to do with money.

(11-11-2011 02:52 PM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  Women are not naturally polygamous/polyandrous (read: they do not try to maintain a harem of men), they are hypergamous (they desire the best man they can get).

Women naturally are not monogamous. Nor are men. In nature.

Almost none of the 8.7 million species on the planet are monogamous in nature.

The ones that are monogamous are mostly birds.

We are mammals.

Of the tiny percentage of mammals that are monogamous in nature, none of them are primates.

We are primates.

The invention of property and men's desire to pass their own property down their own bloodline combined with paternity concern (the fact that when a baby arrives, men historically have never been 100% sure they are the father whereas the mother knows with 100% certainty that she is mother as it is self evident) lead to the rise of the idea that men have to make pussy property so as to allay their paternity concern.

This is why women do not seek to maintain a harem and do not seek polyandry. Pussy is property in modern society. Not cock.

This is something that is normal but not natural.
11-11-2011 03:31 PM
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Excelsior Offline
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RE: How Does a Girl Get Monogamy?
(11-11-2011 03:31 PM)Lumiere Wrote:  Hypergamy means essentially trading-up to a richer, more high status guy financially.

This assumes that money is the only conduit of status, which has not necessarily been the case throughout human history.

A man can derive status from his command over other men, physical prowess/skill, and possession of non-financial things (ex: horses or cattle, in many pre-industrial societies), among other options. Men within societies absent the financial conduit modern society offers us (ex: Native America, Africa, etc) have had status hierarchies and alpha males. Their ability to incite female hypergamy and secure larger numbers of women was not tied to their possession of modern money, but rather other forms of socio-economic capital which have existed since the beginning of humanity.

Hypergamy does not require modern money to exist.

Quote:The draw of the alpha male certain is something that is natural in female sexuality. Always has been, always will be. We agree on that.

This is due to the desire for genetically high quality offspring and has nothing to do with money.

Hence, the natural origin of hypergamy.

Quote:We are mammals.

Of the tiny percentage of mammals that are monogamous in nature, none of them are primates.

We are primates.

Agreed, which is why I did not claim monogamy as the state of nature for either sex. Hypergamy is distinct from monogamy.

Quote:The invention of property and men's desire to pass their own property down their own bloodline combined with paternity concern (the fact that when a baby arrives, men historically have never been 100% sure they are the father whereas the mother knows with 100% certainty that she is mother as it is self evident) lead to the rise of the idea that men have to make pussy property so as to allay their paternity concern.

Hypergamy, as I outlined earlier, pre-dates the invention of property rights and modern money. Women naturally gravitate hypergamously to the alpha male, and always have. Men do not need modern money or property to display their status as alpha males and give women the incentive to listen to their hypergamous instinct, so to tie said instinct's origin to these things is false.

As for the paternity issue, that is not tied to the invention of property rights either. You seem to imply that the male desire to ensure paternity by "locking down" their women as best they can only arose with the rise of property rights (and the subsequent desire to keep said rights in the family), and this isn't the case.

The main incentive for male defensiveness comes from genetic imperative, a natural drive to ensure his genetic lineage continues into the future. The best way to do this in the absence of any foolproof guarantee of paternity (like modern DNA testing) is to "lock a woman down" as best you can and adopt a more competitive and aggressive stance with other males who, if given the chance, will impregnate her and put a roadblock in front of your own genetic legacy's persistence.

This has been a problem since the origin of humanity, well before the rise of modern property rights/inheritances. It is why there are such things as "killer sperm", and it is also why our penises are shaped in such a way as to scoop out remnant sperm from other males within vaginal canals (that is the mushroom head's main function).

It is also why you see the same hypergamous female and defensive male behavior even in societies outside of post-renaissance Western Europe, where the notion of property rights as we know them today (the modern Eurocentric definition of land ownership) often did not exist (ex: Native America, Africa, pre-Meiji Japan, most of Europe outside of the Mediterrenean prior to the renaissance, etc).

For a male, locking a woman down as best he can and attempting to keep other men (and their sperm) away from her vagina (or kick it out/destroy it if it has managed to get there) has always been expedient, even before the invention of modern money/property rights. Men have always had to allay their paternity concerns.

[/quote]This is why women do not seek to maintain a harem and do not seek polyandry. Pussy is property in modern society.[/quote]

This statement does not follow, as pussy has been "treated like property" (no female harem, no polyandry, male attempts to lock down women and keep them away from other males, etc) outside of modern society and well prior to its formation. There is simply no substantiation for the claim that females are naturally polygamous, and female hypergamous nature as we know it is in fact a product of modern society. If that were the case, there would be no examples to be drawn outside of post-renaissance Europe and perhaps Rome/Greece.

As it is, we find a lack of female desire to maintain harems and seek polyandry throughout the globe and throughout all the annals of human history, from Africa to Japan to Native America. Polyandry simply is not widespread anywhere at anytime, modern society or pre-modern society.

Women do not seek to maintain a harem and do not seek polyandry because it is simply not biologically expedient for them to do so in most cases. Hypergamy is a more effective strategy than both monogamy and polyandry for a woman.
11-11-2011 04:54 PM
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RE: How Does a Girl Get Monogamy?
Yeah, I don't know why you brought up money as your main argument, Lumiere. When we're talking about women seeking out higher value men, it's really just game... not money/property alone. As Athlone said.

Also known as: Status, physical traits, charisma, wealth, power, intelligence/wit, sexual prowess, etc.
(This post was last modified: 11-11-2011 05:47 PM by Gmac.)
11-11-2011 05:36 PM
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RE: How Does a Girl Get Monogamy?
Women face a line where, on one end there are "average" and unsexy guys who won't cheat on her (either because they're 'too nice' or they just have no options), and the other end with sexy guys with options, who definitely will cheat on her just because they can. Most choose the sexy end, then whine about getting burned and how all men are pigs and that shit.

I am (still, after learning all the Game and having successes with it) quite a nice guy, honorable and absolutely loyal in relationships, and would never cheat on a girl. Guess how many times has this gotten me rejected, by very same girls saying they like loyalty and kindness above all else? A lot. Ironically, when I finally throw off this last vestige of nicety, my sex appeal and successes will skyrocket. And women will have only themselves to blame.

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11-11-2011 06:50 PM
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RE: How Does a Girl Get Monogamy?
(11-11-2011 06:50 PM)Handsome Creepy Eel Wrote:  Guess how many times has this gotten me rejected, by very same girls saying they like loyalty and kindness above all else? A lot. Ironically, when I finally throw off this last vestige of nicety, my sex appeal and successes will skyrocket. And women will have only themselves to blame.

I agree hypergamy is wired into chix but I feel it is, with REASONABLY mentally healthy ( i.e., midwestern, not LA chix) more:

1) unconscious; their conscious fantasies are not "marry Harry beta, sneak into Justin Bieber's tour bus and have his baby." Come on, an average chick is not planning bizarre shit like that.....UNLESS

2) opportunistic; Justin suddenly appears in her yogurt store and gives her a backstage pass. Then Harry beta ceases to exist in her mind until her [potential] access to Justin's seed is gone.

Girls are DUMB, but they're not COMPLETE MORONS for the most part. the upper 50% in terms of mental health (reality adaptation) (arbitrary % guess) at least have some idea of their value. I was making 35k with little upward mobility in the Midwest with very little game and I had a 6 who was straight out asking me to marry her. She was making a pretty good guess on her value, I almost went for it.

You do get tons of sub-median ghetto chix LOOKING for a guy who'll probably be in jail most of her kid's life "I love thugs..."

Ultimately, the lack of virtually ANY great scientific or artistic achievement by a woman in the last 6000 years proves pretty conclusively that they "settle" for mediocrity, I argue that plays out in most of their social lives too. ( Relatively-- a hot model might "settle" for a schlub MD who makes 500k.)
(This post was last modified: 11-11-2011 09:46 PM by iknowexactly.)
11-11-2011 09:33 PM
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RE: How Does a Girl Get Monogamy?
(11-11-2011 01:47 PM)Giovonny Wrote:  
(11-10-2011 11:20 PM)kimleebj Wrote:  So the question is, what can a woman do to encourage monogamy?

Treat her man like a king. Stay thin and feminine. Be a great cook. Come from a wealthy family. Serve her man sexually. Bring home other younger women for threesomes. Don't complain. Do what she's told to do.

(11-10-2011 11:20 PM)kimleebj Wrote:  And how can men get through those defenses?

Fuck other women and don't let her find out about it.

So you're basically saying that her good behavior isn't going to get rewarded.
11-11-2011 10:05 PM
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RE: How Does a Girl Get Monogamy?
(11-11-2011 04:54 PM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  This assumes that money is the only conduit of status, which has not necessarily been the case throughout human history.

I don't make that assumption. There was a large historical gap between the invention of property and the advent of money. Barter economies and gift economies existed long before money.

(11-11-2011 04:54 PM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  Hypergamy does not require modern money to exist.

Agreed. It only requires the concept of property and privilge to exist when it comes to ownership of survival resources.

(11-11-2011 04:54 PM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  Hence, the natural origin of hypergamy.

The alpha male is not the origin of hypergamy. If it was then most species would show evidence of hypergamy. Only human beings are hypergamous as we are the only ones that get married and have property.

(11-11-2011 04:54 PM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  Hypergamy, as I outlined earlier, pre-dates the invention of property rights and modern money.

It certainly pre-dates money but there is no evidence that it pre-dates property. Hypergamy is simply women's evolved response to the role that property plays in surival and the survival of their children.

(11-11-2011 04:54 PM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  Women naturally gravitate hypergamously to the alpha male, and always have.

Yes they always have. Gravitating towards the alpha male is not a form of hypergamy however. What if the alpha male in question is physically strong but cash weak? In this kind of circumstance, women will find a provider male to settle down with and, during ovulation especially, will bang the alpha male on the side. This is extremely common.

(11-11-2011 04:54 PM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  As for the paternity issue, that is not tied to the invention of property rights either. You seem to imply that the male desire to ensure paternity by "locking down" their women as best they can only arose with the rise of property rights (and the subsequent desire to keep said rights in the family), and this isn't the case.

Nope, I never implied that.

The desire to locking down a women, as you put it,

A) Paternity concern

B) Desire for his genetic lineage to continue

C) Desire to pass down his property to his own children and not someone else as a way to best ensure his children survive

This is why marriage was invented.

(11-11-2011 04:54 PM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  This has been a problem since the origin of humanity, well before the rise of modern property rights/inheritances

Of A, B and C listed above. "A" has not been a problem since the origin of humanity as, before the agriculural revolution, we were hunter gathers who lived a nomadic existence in small tribes. Paternity was never really an issue of too much concern. With no concept of property or self-interest, no material goods to pass down and all children being raised and looked after by the tribe as a whole, it was not really so important.

If you go back far enough in human history, there was a time when we had no clue that fucking and babies arriving 9 months later were even connected.

(11-11-2011 04:54 PM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  For a male, locking a woman down as best he can and attempting to keep other men (and their sperm) away from her vagina (or kick it out/destroy it if it has managed to get there) has always been expedient, even before the invention of modern money/property rights. Men have always had to allay their paternity concerns.

Locking down a woman in marriage or any other way is a recent human invention following the invention of property which dates back to approximately 8-10,000 BC.

The sperm competition and the other things you read about in sperm wars are clear evidence that throughout human history, locking women down in monogamy, was always of little interest to men and was not human nature.

Of course, mating opporunites back then is something that men would compete for if the opportunites were scarce just as they would compete for any other survival resource like food. But this was done for reasons of survival and no other reasons.

(11-11-2011 04:54 PM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  There is simply no substantiation for the claim that females are naturally polygamous

Yes there is. Killer sperm and the evolved shape of the male penis are just two of them.

The crushing obligation that society places on women not be to slutty and to have a low partner count is another.

Why place such a crushing obligation on a sex not to do something that they would otherwise have no interest in doing anyway?

Think about it.
(This post was last modified: 11-12-2011 10:46 AM by Lumiere.)
11-12-2011 10:45 AM
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tenderman100 Offline
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RE: How Does a Girl Get Monogamy?
(11-11-2011 02:05 AM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  Women are in this conundrum because of their own hypergamy which, unfortunately, they largely cannot help (unless societal pressure is added to restrain it, as is still done in much of the more "traditional" developing world and even in more conservative parts of the west).

If they want absolute monogamy, they need to go straight for the monogamous beta at the outset, not the "bold alpha guy".

This is hard for women because, as I said earlier, they are naturally drawn via their hypergamy to the alpha male. Women are mainly drawn to men that other women like, and that draw will often lead them to players or, in the best case scenario, a guy who might not be a super player but who does have plenty of options.
They tend not to pay much mind to the lesser known guys out there who other women aren't as openly crazy/gossipy about or who many other women have not slept with. These are exactly the guys who would give them the monogamy they crave without much work on their part.

Women want that work, though. They would rather try to change/tame the player than go for the sure, steady thing with the quieter/more "beta" dude. This is just how they are wired, and they prove this in millions of little ways every single day. For this reason, they will always have a problem, because the man with options is often a man who can exercise said options, and to try and completely change his desire to do so is to fight a steep uphill battle that, more often than not, girls are going to lose.

So to answer your question about what women can do to encourage monogamy: In theory, they can chase for the more "beta" guy a little more often from the outset, and stop trying to change men who are nothing like what they claim to desire into what they want them to be.

In practice, they can't really do anything and neither can you, since their natural impulse will always lead them to the alpha male and a spot in his harem as they work to "turn him around" and tame the (often) untameable. Their results in these endeavours will never prove favorable (the alpha won't wait 4-6 dates and won't stick around faithfully in a committed relationship for long), but their instincts will probably never allow them to stop putting themselves in that position.

This is one of the greatest summaries of evolutionary psychology I have read.

Players, BOOKMARK this. This is the reality of the sexual marketplace today.

Don't ever forget it. All the other stuff your read in advice columns, etc. is horseshit. This is the hard, cold truth.

I would add one other thing: if the the Alpha fucks her really good, dominates her, and makes her cum harder than she ever has before, she is hooked. The beta will give her monogamy, but not the thrill. The Alpha will give the thrill, but not the monogamy. This is the unresolvable dilemma for the female of the human species, and so the hamster in her head runs in that circle, at warp speed.
(This post was last modified: 11-12-2011 10:56 AM by tenderman100.)
11-12-2011 10:52 AM
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Lumiere Offline
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RE: How Does a Girl Get Monogamy?
(11-11-2011 05:36 PM)Gmac Wrote:  Yeah, I don't know why you brought up money as your main argument, Lumiere.

Because hypergamy by definition is socio-economic trading up and hypergamy is women's evolved response to the role that property plays in their surival and the survival of their children.
(This post was last modified: 11-12-2011 10:59 AM by Lumiere.)
11-12-2011 10:58 AM
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Gmac Offline
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RE: How Does a Girl Get Monogamy?
You don't trade up based on money and property alone though, that was the point. If that were true, you would see women going from banging millionaires to billionaires, not the pool boy.
(This post was last modified: 11-12-2011 03:38 PM by Gmac.)
11-12-2011 03:35 PM
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RE: How Does a Girl Get Monogamy?
(11-12-2011 10:45 AM)Lumiere Wrote:  It only requires the concept of property and privilge to exist when it comes to ownership of survival resources.

This does not explain the lack of polyandry in societies that have historically lacked the concept of property.

Quote:The alpha male is not the origin of hypergamy. If it was then most species would show evidence of hypergamy. Only human beings are hypergamous as we are the only ones that get married and have property.

This is just inaccurate. You've falsely linked hypergamy to property again. Property rights and marriage are not necessary for the expression of hypergamy.

The alpha male is indeed the origin of hypergamy, which is indeed present in most species. The alpha male is the male with status. He doesn't need money or property for this status, which can also be derived from physical prowess, strength, or natural command over other males. The alpha male, in other words, has displayed supremacy over other males, having shown himself to be clearly "better" in one way or another as a mate.

To sum it up: the alpha male is, by definition, the "best" male around (or close to it). This is why he is at the top of the hierarchy.

The fact that females are naturally drawn to said male is quite clearly evidence of hypergamy-they are seeking to mate "up", doing their best to secure the seed (read: access the reproductive potential/capacity) of the best male.

The males, for their part, try to outdo other males by showing themselves to be the best and, by extension, convincing females that they are the highest quality seed available(again, to satisfy hypergamous instinct). They will also fight other males (especially other alphas) in order to monopolize access to their females.

I don't see a logical way around this-it is a clear demonstration of hypergamy. The only things that have changed over time involve the criteria for consideration as an alpha male-with the rise of civilization, physical prowess/strength/capacity for violence was no longer the only way to display alpha status. One could now acquire money/property, and female hypergamy adapted accordingly to also seek out men who had such things.

This does not change the fact that hypergamy (the desire to marry "up" to the BEST mate possible) had been in existence for a long time prior to the invention of those things.

Humans are not the only species to exhibit this dynamic. Other great apes, birds, lions, and many other species have similar dynamics (male displays supremacy over other males --> attracts more females ---> fights other males for right to reproductive access to said females).

To argue that this isn't clearly hypergamy is to, quite simply, argue in defense of a non-sequitor.

Quote:It certainly pre-dates money but there is no evidence that it pre-dates property. Hypergamy is simply women's evolved response to the role that property plays in surival and the survival of their children.

1. Alpha male and female desire for said male is already clear evidence of hypergamy. That pre-dates property.

2. Hypergamy exists in more communal societies that have historically lacked the concept of "property".

Quote:Yes they always have. Gravitating towards the alpha male is not a form of hypergamy however. What if the alpha male in question is physically strong but cash weak?

1. The alpha male is the displayed "best male" for reproductive purposes (best male = best seed). Gravitation towards said male with the intent of securing his reproductive capacity is hypergamy, by definition.

2. Cash/property are not always in the equation. In fact, they historically haven't been, especially outside of Europe.

Quote:In this kind of circumstance, women will find a provider male to settle down with and, during ovulation especially, will bang the alpha male on the side. This is extremely common.

Not sure what this is meant to prove here, because it dovetails right into my own contention. This scenario is still full hypergamy, not polygamy.

She has sought and secured the "best" seed possible and essentially foisted its upbringing onto a lesser male who does not get access to her reproductive capacity. It is the same hypergamous dynamic we've seen since the beginning of human history: her reproductive capacity is reserved for the most alpha (in her mind, the "best") male she can find.

Polygamy must involve an attempt to secure for oneself the reproductive potential/capacity of multiple partners (just as hypergamy must involve an attempt secure the reproductive capacity of "the best" partner).
You do not have polygamy/polyandry when only one partner's reproductive capacity is desired and actually used, and the other is there mainly for the purpose of supporting the results of that union. That is an inherently hypergamous strategy (with the second beta male partner's presence designed to limit the consequences of her hypergamy).

In the scenario you have presented, the woman has two men she is ostensibly involved with (outwardly, appears polygamous), but seeks to secure for herself the reproductive capacity/ potential of only one of them (the one who, in her mind, is "the best").

The other male's reproductive potential is not sought at all. He gets no access to her reproductive capacity, and only limited access even to her basic sexual capacity. Why? Because women are hypergamous-they want to mate as far up the ladder as they can, and he is further down on that ladder than the alpha male.
This other male is there for purely practical reasons, not for any want of his reproductive or even basic sexual capacity.

This is hypergamy, not polyandry. Two men may be involved, but only one of them is really a part of the mating game. The other is an expedient accessory to help her out after the mating game has actually been played. That is the difference.

If she attempted to secure access to both men's reproductive capacity equally (as true polygamists and polyandrists actually do when they secure several women/men as mates), you would have a case. In this case, she is clearly really only jonesing for (the "best") one.

That is hypergamy, not polygamy.

Quote:Of A, B and C listed above. "A" has not been a problem since the origin of humanity as, before the agriculural revolution, we were hunter gathers who lived a nomadic existence in small tribes. Paternity was never really an issue of too much concern.

The lack of opposition in ensuring paternity does not imply that it was not a concern. Males have always care about ensuring the continuance of their lineage. Some environments may mitigate the potential for other men to endanger this, but this does not mean that the concern is not present.

Quote:With no concept of property or self-interest, no material goods to pass down and all children being raised and looked after by the tribe as a whole, it was not really so important.

Yes, it was. Alpha males still existed in such societies and they still made efforts to monopolize sexual access to their females (and often got the lion's share of local female reproductive capacity).

This is why killer sperm and mushroom-headed genitalia exist as well, and pre-date the formation of modern society. Men compete, and always have. Boxing out other men has always been part of their modus operendi.

Quote:The sperm competition and the other things you read about in sperm wars are clear evidence that throughout human history, locking women down in monogamy, was always of little interest to men and was not human nature.

No, those things are proof positive of hypergamy. Killer sperm and the shape of our genitalia are weapons men who are not clearly dominant alpha males can use against the hypergamous instinct that often causes females to "trade up" when they catch wind of a "better" male nearby and have the opportunity to gain sexual access to him.

They are weapons designed to help men when their more aggressive measures to mark their territory (intimidating, fighting and/or chasing off other men who seek access to their women) failed.

Quote:Of course, mating opporunites back then is something that men would compete for if the opportunites were scarce just as they would compete for any other survival resource like food. But this was done for reasons of survival and no other reasons.

It doesn't occur to you that boxing other men out of the competition would be expedient to the insurance of one's genetic survival as well?


Quote:Yes there is. Killer sperm and the evolved shape of the male penis are just two of them.

That is evidence of female hypergamy, not polygamy.

And no, there actually is no substantiation (scientific/researched) for the claim that women are naturally polygamous from an evolutionary-psychology or biological perspective.
Which is good, because that claim makes no sense.

Quote:The crushing obligation that society places on women not be to slutty and to have a low partner count is another.

Also tools designed to restrain female hypergamy, not polygamy. Women are not polygamous/polyandrous by nature.
11-12-2011 08:18 PM
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Excelsior Offline
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RE: How Does a Girl Get Monogamy?
(11-12-2011 10:58 AM)Lumiere Wrote:  
(11-11-2011 05:36 PM)Gmac Wrote:  Yeah, I don't know why you brought up money as your main argument, Lumiere.

Because hypergamy by definition is socio-economic trading up and hypergamy is women's evolved response to the role that property plays in their surival and the survival of their children.

1. As I have been saying, property is not required for hypergamy. This is why it exists even in societies that have historically lacked property rights.

2. Hypergamy is not strictly linked to economics-men have other forms of capital they can use.
11-12-2011 08:19 PM
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