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I've been in Indonesia almost two years, and have made some progress with the language, but am still no where near where I'd like to be. Anyways, I've heard many people say from different countries that all you need to do, is use the language and practice it. Because of my work schedule, any sort of formal lessons aren't possible.

I don't understand this though. If I practice listening to Indonesian, every day all day, its still just sounds. There is absolutely no reference frame to what any of it means, I might recognize some commonly repeated words, but again short of trying to solve the entire language like a sort of frequency cypher, don't see why this would be helpful.

Same with speaking. I speak what I 'think' is correct, perhaps not exactly right, but enough to get the thought across. But this too is problematic, since there is no feedback, and I'll keep repeating the same thing, thinking it's correct.

Vocab you can get easy enough through memorization, but the grammar and structure and all that I'm sort of lost on. And it's weird, like when I speak English, I don't feel like it's coming from memory. Not in the same way that I remember what the capitals of certain countries are, or the way I try and recall certain Indonesian words.

So practice what?
(06-12-2013 10:22 PM)Seadog Wrote: [ -> ]I've been in Indonesia almost two years, and have made some progress with the language, but am still no where near where I'd like to be. Anyways, I've heard many people say from different countries that all you need to do, is use the language and practice it. Because of my work schedule, any sort of formal lessons aren't possible.

I don't understand this though. If I practice listening to Indonesian, every day all day, its still just sounds. There is absolutely no reference frame to what any of it means, I might recognize some commonly repeated words, but again short of trying to solve the entire language like a sort of frequency cypher, don't see why this would be helpful.

Same with speaking. I speak what I 'think' is correct, perhaps not exactly right, but enough to get the thought across. But this too is problematic, since there is no feedback, and I'll keep repeating the same thing, thinking it's correct.

Vocab you can get easy enough through memorization, but the grammar and structure and all that I'm sort of lost on. And it's weird, like when I speak English, I don't feel like it's coming from memory. Not in the same way that I remember what the capitals of certain countries are, or the way I try and recall certain Indonesian words.

So practice what?

Vocabulary on its own is not going to teach you a language. Most words have multiple meanings and uses depending on context. You need to be using the language, not just studying vocabulary.

What are your goals in Indonesian? For instance, would you rather be able to speak and understand it, or read and write it?

If you want it for social purposes, you need to be practicing speaking with people. You should get a phrasebook, which has full sentences ready for you to use without thinking about grammatical constructions.

Try a Pimsleur course in Indonesian.
http://www.pimsleur.com/learn-indonesian

I've used Pimsleur with other languages and it really helps you dive head first into conversation.

You can definitely study grammar and vocabulary, but that should be as a corrolary to your main study of the actual real life use of a language. Go out there and find some Indonesian friends who don't speak English. Or a girl. Or a tutor. Whatever, just put yourself in a situation where you will be speaking Indonesian and not English.

This is where a phrasebook and simple pre-formed sentences come in handy. You need to go to a bar, order a drink. Simple. You learn a couple of sentences and anticipate their possible answers.

You want to talk to a girl, you need to learn some basic chit chat and to ask her her name and number, and "do you want to come over to my place".

Start bit by bit with real communicative language, the stuff that's most useful to you, whatever that might be.

Some good sites related to language learning:
http://how-to-learn-any-language.com/e/index.html
http://www.fluentin3months.com

You really need to focus in on the most common and useful words/phrases first. There are probably 2000 words in any language that form 90% of day-to-day speech. Learning them and common sentences gives you a solid foundation to build upon.

Pimsleur is honestly highly recommended, especially if your schedule is crazy.

Do you work in English? If so, when do you have free time to socialise? Many people learn languages through friends, and never reach an "academic" level of proficiency because they only use their language for social chit-chat. Which is fine, if that's your goal. And since you've been living without it, I bet you don't "need" academic indonesian anyway.
I understand and agree with all that, but I just don't see the link between speaking it incorrectly and getting better. Because I'm not practicing 'correct' conversational Indonesian. I currently have a model of Indonesian in my head which isn't correct. Work is mostly English, but want Indonesian just so I can get better integrated into community. Nature of work is that I can't do really any socializing outside of work, or even really at all for that matter. (Yah I know I need to quit my job).

Like I say something which is trying to convey a certain meaning. Because I spoke it incorrectly, the meaning others take isn't what I meant. So since it means they can't even correct me, because I can't communicate what I mean, so they don't know. Sort of a chicken/egg problem, or solving X in terms of X.

I can handle a basic conversation (where do you live, what do you parents do), I just can't see where I'll ever be able to get to the ability to banter and have a conversation any more fun than a job interview.
Screw Pimsleur completely. I don't get the obsession here with it. I learned more by haggling in a flea market in a Sunday while asking a friend about words I didn't know and how to mix them than by sitting 2 weeks through a course designed to try to keep me from failing and learning from that. For a forum that advocates growing game and such, especially by putting yourself out there, the extreme love for zero-risk language courses really confuses me.
(06-12-2013 10:22 PM)Seadog Wrote: [ -> ]I've been in Indonesia almost two years, and have made some progress with the language, but am still no where near where I'd like to be. Anyways, I've heard many people say from different countries that all you need to do, is use the language and practice it. Because of my work schedule, any sort of formal lessons aren't possible.

I don't understand this though. If I practice listening to Indonesian, every day all day, its still just sounds. There is absolutely no reference frame to what any of it means, I might recognize some commonly repeated words, but again short of trying to solve the entire language like a sort of frequency cypher, don't see why this would be helpful.

Same with speaking. I speak what I 'think' is correct, perhaps not exactly right, but enough to get the thought across. But this too is problematic, since there is no feedback, and I'll keep repeating the same thing, thinking it's correct.

Vocab you can get easy enough through memorization, but the grammar and structure and all that I'm sort of lost on. And it's weird, like when I speak English, I don't feel like it's coming from memory. Not in the same way that I remember what the capitals of certain countries are, or the way I try and recall certain Indonesian words.

So practice what?

I completely disagree. Just practice is not enough, you need a proper language course.
Yeah, somehow children learn a language by practice but it does not work for adults (at least for me).
(06-12-2013 11:08 PM)Northern Wrote: [ -> ]I completely disagree. Just practice is not enough, you need a proper language course.
Yeah, somehow children learn a language by practice but it does not work for adults (at least for me).

Kids pick up the language by not thinking. Adults over-think and trip over their own minds. They just pick it up through mimicry.

And also, usually a child will go to school and learn a language in a country, so they're basically studying all day. Adults rarely have the time. But if you arrange your social life so it's totally in your target language, you can get hours of free practice a day. Within a few months you will go from basically nothing to conversational, and continue improving from there
Why people always say that?! If you practice speaking you will likely get lots of reps saying phrases, using words incorrectly, we see this in the US where we've got Asians that have lived here for 30 years yet still speak as though they arrived six months ago.

Get your hands on the language learning pack off of the pirate bay that contains dozens of books and CDs, use the different books to understand the grammar of the language, while you're doing that copy the audio tracks that contain sentences into audacity, and create your own mp3 language audio tracks for listening to while you are in the gym, on the train, out and about using a monaural earbud or bluetooth earpiece. This way you will be immersed in your language for hours a day reinforcing the sentences and vocab in your memory instead of being immersed in 'noise'. Don't forget to label your files with page number in the corresponding text in case you need to refer to it again. You don't have to understand all the grammar rules you just need to know the gist of it.

Find a native female university student ideally an English major to help you 2-3 times per week, because learning languages is mostly self-taught she isn't there to tutor you in the traditional way, her purpose is to act as a 'long haired dictionary' providing instantaneous translation along with example sentences that include definitions and also correct your pronunciation and usage of the language. This will save you a lot of time wasted typing words into an electronic dictionary or flipping thru a paper one. Record her sentences using a mic and audacity for study later and upload the files to youtube for the rest of RVF. If you can't figure out how you are pronouncing incorrectly record yourself in audacity and play it back, also try to think of yourself as 'impersonating' a native while you're speaking.

You'll see the fastest results from repeatedly hearing sentences you already understand and use in your everyday life which is why you need to make a large library of mp3 files using audacity to edit them, Mp3tag v 2.54 to edit the file metadata. If your mp3 player is having trouble playing them join the files using Meda Mp3 joiner into longer files. What I do is I join the vocab files in my library into a single 30 min track, which I double in audacity. Then I import the latest non-vocal house or trance music podcast into audacity with it, and lower it's volume using the amplify plugin with a negative value, usually between 7 - 10. I use this for my driving and gym track. You should mix a new track every week with your newer audio files and latest music podcast.

When studying grammar I get good results with studying early in the day, as long as possible until I'm about to pass out. Use ANKI to create small decks of important things like parts of sentences, numbers, frequent verbs and nouns, but don't create a large deck with numerous sentences just yet, especially if your pronunciation is bad. Often you're textbooks will have 'matching' games, fill in the blank, crossword puzzles or other such classroom exercises for you to do, I think these are dumb as hell and your time is better spent making the audio files and writing useful sentences to have translated and recorded for the next time you meet your long haired dictionary.

Sometimes people say to listen to the news, listen to their music, or watch kids shows, I did this and its a waste of time since a lot of it isn't used in normal speech. Learn and use what you need in your everyday life over there, from there you can go to news articles that are of interest to you, again your tutor will be useful since often you will understand all the words in the sentence and still be unsure of its meaning. If your tutor enjoys sessions with you because 'you hansum man' this will really benefit you when she creates vocab lists and recordings for you on her own time, for free.
Pimsleurs - this product is a waste of time and money (but great marketing)! Each level of Pimsleurs is 15 hours of phrases and words you won't use. Why do I need to hear about how to book hotels for 6 hours, its a HOTEL the front desk knows ENGLISH! You can spend that 15 hours instead with your tutor making sentences you'll actually use, learning grammar so that you're not confused when you hear people talk, memorizing a 'most commonly used' words list, or practicing speaking the language as Volk posted, with your tutor next to you for on-the-spot corrections.

I forgot to add that the initial phase of intensive study doesn't need to last over a month, I hear that Indo is one of the simplest languages so it may only take a week and a half.

btw if you still feel like using Pimsleur's a trick is to import the tracks into audacity and erase all of the long silences using the 'Truncate Silence' tool under the 'Effect' drop down menu.
I second Pimsleur, especially since the OP is time challenged and can't go out and "haggle in a flea market".
Of course, you'll learn the language faster by speaking to people than you will by using Pimsleur...obviously.

However, it's the best program that I and many others have come across that will actually help you to get conversational. Living Languages and the others just have you memorize several random phrases and short conversations without context.

Pimsleur is NOT as good a tutor but I think the OP doesn't have time for tutor.

I've used several Pimsleur courses and I never recall a lesson that teaches conversation about booking a hotel room. I'm not saying it doesn't exist. I just don't remember off hand and I'm positive if there were such a lesson it was much shorter than 6 hours or even 1 hour.

Pimsleur Mandarin and Cantonese have helped me a lot in my travels.
Others I know who work in China have told me Pimsleur has helped them.
I've noticed most people who think they know a language well only how to ask a series of questions for the most part, or know a few common phrases and therefore believe they know it.
people who say learning vocabulary doesnt help arent entirely right, some words do have multiple meanings but knowing just a shit ton of words helps.
but youre too old to just listen to it and pick it up. your brain is no longer hardwired like a childs. you need to make a conscious effort.
as for speaking incorrecrly: so what? think.of how terribly someone can butcher english and still ne understood "how was you been?" you still know what im saying. and it starts bad but then the more you hear it the better you will automatically start using other peoples phrases. this is something i noticed when i was learning chinese, a guy would get a girlfriend and then rapidly take on her mannerisms and lexicon. i had a 30 year old austealian friend who spoke chinese like a 22 year old college girl. its hard to think about because youve heard so much english you have your own "brand" so to speak. you have your own set of words you use. out of huge, big, gigantic, and enormous you probably have one you use 95% of them time. spending a.lot of time with one person will give you phrases to borrow
that was rambly
it is bullshit that our brains can't learn a new language now. we can. it took us YEARS to get to a basic level of English. Now we are adults we are equipped with the framework of one language to the point of effective fluency. We can use this system and hack other languages.

Tim Ferris tips on language learning structure ', the apple is red, john has a red apple' and Fluent in 3 months are good. google them
i never said you couldnt learn a new language, of course you can. but you cant just listen to it and learn it by nothing more than exposure. an adult needs to.actually try
(06-12-2013 10:50 PM)Seadog Wrote: [ -> ]I understand and agree with all that, but I just don't see the link between speaking it incorrectly and getting better. Because I'm not practicing 'correct' conversational Indonesian. I currently have a model of Indonesian in my head which isn't correct.

Not the right attitude to have.

Let me state a metric here which seems to be in line with your goals. Language is about communication.

Who the hell cares if your Indonesian is not "correct"? Can you get at least 50% of your meaning across?

In addition, with such a grammar-light language as Indonesian, your chances of being "incorrect" is far less than, say, if you were trying to learn Lithuanian, which is a heavily inflected highly irregular conservative language. Thus, you have a far easier journey than those learning other more "typical" languages.

There are non-native speakers living in the United States who have shitty grammar after 30 years. However, does this prevent them from being functionally conversational? NO. So for now, get rid of this need of perfection. Screw grammar. Screw structure.

(Note: I am not saying that grammar isn't important, but if you're a n00b or lower intermediate, then you have no place obsessing over it)

__________________

So the recommendation?

Just shut up and speak (see what I did there?).

Here's the main reason for speaking that I feel no one ever emphasizes:

Practicing speaking turns your passive vocabulary to eventually super active vocabulary.

Speaking will NOT teach you new words. After all, if you don't know something, how in the world do you expect it to magically pop into your head from oblivion? Thus, you still need to do self-study in addition to this.

I can bet your ass that if you memorize a vocabulary list of 100 words, you will probably not be able to or have tremendous trouble with recalling at least 70 or 80 of these words in real speech (there's one interesting reason why, but I'll save that for another time as it's too much to explain). You might even have trouble recognizing them in speech or writing. You can learn a bunch of vocabulary, but good luck thinking that memorizing a word entails "learnt a word". Sadly, language skills can't be colored only black or white.

Also, most vocabulary lists suck really really hard. Like really? Vocabulary lists teaching you elephant, raspberry, and tank tops? Ridiculously useless. I have more to say on this issue, but I'll save this for a future time.

Summary: you speak in order to increase your ability in fluid, active speech. In other words, to get the ability you mention when you said:

Quote:And it's weird, like when I speak English, I don't feel like it's coming from memory
Grammar:

After you get some fluency in a range of phrases (aka, "I don't feel like it's coming from memory"), then grammar is a great thing to review.

There's two things to worry about here.
1) Grammar that you can correct yourself.
2) "Grammar" that you won't be able to spot yourself. This is usually always due to an idiomatic construction unique to the language.

The first aspect is simple: you just have to know the grammar rule. For example, in French, you know that "Il faut que je vais" is wrong due to a grammar rule involving the subjunctive that one learns. And if you know this, then you correct it to "Il faut que j'aille".

For the second aspect, there are two things you can do. One: a deliberate language teacher. As you have mentioned, natives do not correct you, so you can't improve. Indeed, this can be frustrating. You can convince them to correct you (the over-mentioned fluentin3months blog has a post on some "techniques" to facilitate this if you want to search for it).

If you can't do this, then this is why you need a teacher-to-student relationship with someone. You mention "Because of my work schedule, any sort of formal lessons aren't possible", but I believe that if you really want to learn, you will find the time to learn.

If you're thinking about taking formal language classes, then take a glass bottle and smash it over your skull right now. They suck and pretty much reflect high school/university grammar courses. Ever heard anyone say "My high school taught me Spanish very effectively!". From what you have written, it does not seem like you will benefit from these classes anyway.

Instead, one-on-one language lessons are the key. Furthermore, these classes don't have to be in some remote location. This is the 21st century. You can do language lessons at the comfort of your own home and on-line.

Don't complain that you don't have time (not saying that you are) if there is http://www.italki.com. You can find a teacher there, exchange skype, arrange a time, and for a small fee (or free if you are willing to do an exchange), you have your own personal tutor.

Even with such a simplified process, it's too hard? Then, take a tranquilizer gun and shoot yourself in the head. When you wake up, that should reset your brain and lead you to find http://www.verbling.com . Just press the switch for "Connect" and in minutes, you are face-to-face with a language exchange partner! No need for skype.

It's really too easy to find a teacher nowadays.

Anyway, one point to emphasize is the more you are corrected by teachers, the closer and closer your L2 abilities converge to that of a competent speaker.

This should quell your worries on

Quote:since there is no feedback, and I'll keep repeating the same thing, thinking it's correct.

Two: if you hear or read a phrase where you think "I would have never come up with that", write it down or note it somewhere. Otherwise, you will most likely forget it!

For example, in French, I might come across "Cela m'a aidé à mettre au point mes propres techniques". Literally, "mettre au point" means "put to the point", but it is an idiomatic expression meaning "develop". I would have never thought of myself, as an English native speaker, to create the combination of words "put" + "to the" + "point". These should be learned and memorized.

Again, I have tons more to say on this issue, but I'm working with a friend to develop a language learning course, so I don't want to reveal too much information for free (though honestly, the gist of what I want to say is there). I still feel that the language learning market could use a lot more concrete language learning techniques on exactly what to study since the information out there is way too broad (though still useful).

__________________

Here's a brief flash of motivation:

The better your language skills get, the easier it is for you to learn new things.

An analogy: the richer you are, the easier it is to get even richer.

This doesn't need explanation. You should think of this, however, when you feel like you are not making any progress.

__________________

Quote:If I practice listening to Indonesian, every day all day, its still just sounds. There is absolutely no reference frame to what any of it means

This, on the other hand, is a sentiment that I highly agree with. "Keep listening" is misguided bullshit.

There's a linguist by the name of Stephen Krashen that emphasizes that comprehensible input forms the basis of L2 learning.

If you don't understand the enormous bulk of what you hear, then you will forget it and you learn squat. That's that.

The key here is in targeted, concentrated study. You need to listen to audio that you understand or that you can begin to understand. In addition, you need to spend a lot of time on the same audio over and over again. Ideally, find audio with transcripts. Learn it well. This is why so many polyglot and language learners like the Teach Yourself or Colloquial series (might as well put these affiliate links here in case anyone ends up buying and wants to treat me to a Gatorade).

The problem here is that it can be a bit boring listening to the same stuff over and over again. It's up to you here to develop or find ways to develop your motivational skills to better your Indonesian in this respect.

______________________

I realized a lot of what I said is a bit jumbled, so it might be a good idea for me to clean it up and post it as a separate forum topic. Perhaps another day. Of course, I'll be happy to answer any other questions.
Don't you meet girls that can help you? When you hear those commonly used words that you recognize, memorize them and then ask someone who speaks both languages what they mean. Google translate is your friend. Even though it isn't 100% accurate it will definitely help you learn.
(06-13-2013 03:59 PM)theArbiter Wrote: [ -> ]There are non-native speakers living in the United States who have shitty grammar after 30 years. However, does this prevent them from being functionally conversational? NO. So for now, get rid of this need of perfection. Screw grammar. Screw structure.

(Note: I am not saying that grammar isn't important, but if you're a n00b or lower intermediate, then you have no place obsessing over it)

__________________


Also, most vocabulary lists suck really really hard. Like really? Vocabulary lists teaching you elephant, raspberry, and tank tops? Ridiculously useless. I have more to say on this issue, but I'll save this for a future time.

I found that before getting a good understanding of the grammar rules, it was difficult to clearly distinguish words in a sentence. If Indonesian is like other SE Asia languages then this won't be an issue.

Vocab lists aren't usually helpful unless you can find one that is relevant to your professional field. Or have your tutor make one. Or use google translate if you can find a vocab list in English.
Ive always thought that there has to be more efficient ways of learning a language.. pointless to start from scratch and see what sticks.

I asked a tutor in China to help me with a framework, but she had no idea how to teach that. All she knew is what she learned in Beijing, not very useful . . .So she had me trying memorizing long, polite and winded phrases that were not that useful. My idea of caveman / tarzan chinese was shelved, but after a lot of persistance she started to come around a bit more.

Nowadays Im using the 'tarzan japanese' approach, with mixed results. I can communicate primitively, but I dont sound like no scholar, that's for sure. Just the same, I dont think I will ever sound like a native anyway.




Re: Ferris notes:

The apple is red

it is Johns apple

I give John the apple

we give him the apple

he gives it to john

she gives it to him

is the apple red?

the apples are red

I want to give it to her (giggidy)

Im going to know tomorrow

I cant eat the apple

I have eaten the apple
Yah, so I touched on in previous threads, but my life is about 1/3 living in some middle of nowhere oil camp, 1/3 living in some middle of no where town with no grocery store let alone a bar or university. So logistics and lifestyle alone are my two biggest hurdles right now, not just to language learning but most good things in life. 2/3 of my life is basically in a work bubble. The remainder of the time, I travel, or head back to Canada, but for all intents am homeless. But anyways not here for a pity party, just to give you some info on my situation.

I guess the thing is, people say 'go out and talk to people', or 'make local friends who don't speak the language', but why would you be friends with someone who doesn't speak your language? If someone came to me in Canada and could barely speak English, I wouldn't want to be their friend. Nothing against them, even if we had things in common there would be no way to communicate it. It would just be a pretty shitty friendship. Like I said I hate small talk and conversations like 'what religion are your parents, hows the food not too spicy?' in English as well as any other language, and until I get past that point with a language, I don't see I could have real 'friends'.

That's the other thing with this job, being one of a handful of native English speakers gets pretty lonely since you can't get close or have real conversations with people, but that's getting off topic. What I'd like to do, and what I honestly think would be the best is an intensive language course, it has all the aspects people suggest, except the teacher sort of has to put up with you since you're paying her, but obviously in my current situation that's not really possible, so curious for the next best things. There are a few good resources online, but I find I'm just learning more words (probably about 1500 words now), but particularly with speaking, it goes too quick for me to decypher, and even in text, while I can pick out the words, the meaning is lost.
(06-13-2013 03:59 PM)theArbiter Wrote: [ -> ]Also, most vocabulary lists suck really really hard. Like really? Vocabulary lists teaching you elephant, raspberry, and tank tops? Ridiculously useless. I have more to say on this issue, but I'll save this for a future time.

Just out of curiosity why do you think this? It seems to me that memorizing the correct words would be the bulk of the battle? Or at least the most basic part and foundation?
Good to get a grammatical basis as a skeleton but I've found it works for me best just to try and mimic the language through interaction or TV shows to get somewhat good. My father learned five languages in addition to his native tongue at least at a conversant level this way, showed it to me and I was able to pick up Spanish and to a lesser extent Japanese this way. Am already bilingual in English and Korean.
Best advice I ever heard on this subject "The best way to learn a language is in the bedroom"
(06-13-2013 11:42 PM)Seadog Wrote: [ -> ]
(06-13-2013 03:59 PM)theArbiter Wrote: [ -> ]Also, most vocabulary lists suck really really hard. Like really? Vocabulary lists teaching you elephant, raspberry, and tank tops? Ridiculously useless. I have more to say on this issue, but I'll save this for a future time.

Just out of curiosity why do you think this? It seems to me that memorizing the correct words would be the bulk of the battle? Or at least the most basic part and foundation?

It's difficult to pickup a language by memorizing the words in isolation, due to differences in people's pronunciation and speed of normal conversation, you won't recognize the words you've learn when you actually hear it live. Think about how you can understand the slurred speech of a drunkard, but if he were to break down his sentence and say each word individually you'd have a hard time identifying what he was saying without the context of the entire sentence.

Vocab lists you find in textbooks and on the internet will have many words, mostly nouns rarely used in everyday speech like 'elephant, raspberry, and tank tops', ask yourself how many times did you use those words last week? Without hearing, reading or speaking new words you'll forget them soon after. It's far more useful to learn the common verbs (and conjugations if applicable) and the most flexible words to describe abstract concepts. If you can't remember a noun you can usually point to it, talk about what you use it for, or describe it with adjectives and your hand motions.
For me I have found that learning intensive is the only way to go. Ive been learning Chinese part time for about 9 months, but the progress is slow and I lose interest every so often. So when I return in September I've signed up at uni here to study for 3 hours every morning, should work way better.

(06-14-2013 12:39 AM)bacon Wrote: [ -> ]Best advice I ever heard on this subject "The best way to learn a language is in the bedroom"

Haha yeah. Just make sure their English sucks more than you at whatever language you are trying to learn.
Why would you give that statement any credibility in the first place? It's not true for any other discipline. Most things need a degree of teaching alongside practice - be that in a class or from books/tapes.

With language, a good idea is to learn the bulk of practical grammar, and the most common 1000-2000 words, as quickly as possible. THEN you just practice and acquire more as you go along, but you need that "foothold" in the language first. Programs like Michel Thomas (grammar) and Assimil + Duolingo (vocab) are a good start. 1-on-1 tuition is obviously key too if you can afford it. Classes are hit-and-miss.
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