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The NBA Thread
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Joga Bonito Offline
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Post: #1151
RE: The NBA Thread
I'm going to play devils advocate here and say that Jordan ruined the way we evaluate players.

I say this because stars today have to succeed purely on Jordan's terms and no one else's no matter how incredible their accomplishments. "Kobe scored 81 against Toronto? They suck and Jordan would've dropped 100 against them." "Jordan would average 50 in today's NBA". Lebron dropped 29 of the last 30 points in a playoff against the games best defense(that year) in the Pistons? "But Jordan dropped 63 in playoffs against a much tougher Celtics defense. Lebron wouldn't score in that series"

Then there's the whole hero ball thing, where if you don't get the ball at the end of the game and perfectly time the game winning shot so that clock shows 0.0, you are not clutch. I understand and agree that Jordan is the best and no one on the current horizon will ever pass him or be him. However it does get a tad bit old for some of us as basketball fans, who get continuously beat upside the head with the "Well Jordan would've done it his way" hypotheticals.

Keep in mind that Lebron has 2 championships at 28 and Jordan got his first championship at 28. They also have never been the same player. One guy is a 6'8 point forward that loves to pass just as much if not more than scoring and the other is a 6'6 classic 2 guard with a cold-blooded disposition and offensive arsenal. Rather then trying to figure if Jordan's hairline would've receded the same as Lebrons or if Jordan would've joined forces with DWade appreciate what both guys did, since they are already etched in the annals of greatness. We know that Jordan struggled mightily trying to beat the Pistons and Celtics early on in his career(in similar situations to Lebron), but we will never know what Jordan did in Lebrons shoes because it will never happen.
(This post was last modified: 10-28-2013 08:37 PM by Joga Bonito.)
10-28-2013 08:03 PM
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Therapsid Offline
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Post: #1152
RE: The NBA Thread
One of the reasons I don't care for Lebron so much is because the guy just isn't very smart. He's not dumb by NBA standards, but he's not sharp either. Wade is clearly smarter, for instance.

I've always preferred the players who combine a keen intelligence with athletic prowess and skill.

Jordan, Magic, Bird, Malone, Isiah, all of these men visibly gave the impression of intelligence. Kobe is probably one of the smartest players in the league.

Lebron isn't at that level. There's something still juvenile about him to me, quite frankly. That's fine, because he's more physically gifted than any other player of all time and he's proven that he has a strong work ethic.
10-28-2013 08:11 PM
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TheSlayer Offline
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Post: #1153
RE: The NBA Thread
(10-28-2013 07:36 PM)Giovonny Wrote:  
(10-28-2013 07:20 PM)TheSlayer Wrote:  Come on, now. Mike didn't have great players around him?

Pippen was the only great player around him and I think Mike made him great.

He wasn't that great without Mike around.

Mike made him Top 50, in my opinion.

Rodman was great but that was only for 1 or 2 seasons.

Kukoc wasn't that great, in my opinion.

I would like to see a list of the starting line ups for all 6 of Mike's championships.

I don't think they were that loaded..?

Lebron had 2 all stars with him. Mike only had 1.
See, this is the thing that I don’t get. Yeah, sure Mike was a good leader and “pushed” Pippen to develop his game but people act like Jordan made a scrub a top 50 player. If you don’t have the innate talent, neither MJ nor god can make you a great player. Without Pippen’s own talent, Jordan could have done any voodoo trick he wanted, Pippen would have been garbage but Pippen is a top 50 all-time player. He focused on defense and his athleticism allowed him to guard 1-4s like LeBron can. That’s not something Jordan gave him.

I think with or without Jordan, Pippen would have been eventually great. How can you say he wasn’t great without Mike around when he led them to 55 wins, finished 2nd or 3rd in MVP voting and lost in the game 7 of the ECF ? That just shows you how loaded that team was.

Kukoc isn’t obviously some all-time great but he was obviously a very good solid role player. He was a big guy who could handle the ball and played good defense. He was 6th man of the year during the second 3peat if I am not wrong.

Yeah, LeBron plays with 2 all-stars and Mike 1 but that shouldn’t be the parameter of whether or not a team was loaded. All-star selections are great but don’t tell whether or not a team is loaded.

You are older than I am and watched MJ play. I think you are letting your love for Jordan get in the way of some objective analysis. Maybe I am wrong but I know you are usually more fair, objective, and rational.

(10-28-2013 07:36 PM)Giovonny Wrote:  
(10-28-2013 07:20 PM)TheSlayer Wrote:  Regarding the assistant coaches, I figured. They don't talk hoops like we do.

I went back and edited my post. I added some more details that you might enjoy.

Yeah, I did. Thanks for talking about that. Honestly, I am just a little jealous of the fact that you have access to those coaches Tongue.

(10-28-2013 07:36 PM)Giovonny Wrote:  I am Skip Bayless Jr.
I actually hate skip bayless
lol

I know you hate Bayless as do a lot of people or people who are not trolls and want to talk about sports rationally. Bayless is a fucking troll and I hope he gets taken off the air.
10-28-2013 08:19 PM
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Post: #1154
RE: The NBA Thread
(10-28-2013 08:03 PM)iWin Wrote:  I'm going to play devils advocate here and say that Jordan ruined the way we evaluate players.
Then there's the whole hero ball thing, where if you don't get the ball at the end of the game and perfectly time the game winning shot so that clock shows 0.0, you are not clutch. I understand and agree that Jordan is the best and no one on the current horizon will ever pass him or be him. However it does get a tad bit old for some of us asbasketball fans , who get continously beat upside the head with the "Well Jordan would've done it his way" hypotheticals.

Very well said. I was doing some research on the whole last minute shots thing and what not because I just love researching stats, watching old clips on YouTube and trying to learn more about the game. Even though LeBron doesn’t have as many walk-off shots as MJ but he has a lot of game winners where he scores the game winning basket with some time left and his team has to play defense. Then you have the Skip Baylesses of the world proclaiming “Oh, he isn’t clutch because he doesn’t have walk-off shots”. I would say walk-off shots or game winners should be held in the same regard.

I think people sometimes get so caught up in defending the past and when there is a guy like LeBron who legitimately threatens MJ status as best ever (though I don’t think he will overtake him but he can finish as top 3 of all-time), people want to exacerbate his flaws and all of MJ’s flaws/bad games/losses are forgotten. I say just enjoy the game .


(10-28-2013 08:11 PM)Therapsid Wrote:  One of the reasons I don't care for Lebron so much is because the guy just isn't very smart. He's not dumb by NBA standards, but he's not sharp either. Wade is clearly smarter, for instance.

I've always preferred the players who combine a keen intelligence with athletic prowess and skill.

Jordan, Magic, Bird, Malone, Isiah, all of these men visibly gave the impression of intelligence. Kobe is probably one of the smartest players in the league.

Lebron isn't at that level. There's something still juvenile about him to me, quite frankly. That's fine, because he's more physically gifted than any other player of all time and he's proven that he has a strong work ethic.

I don’t know if you are talking about off the court intelligence or basketball IQ. If you are talking about the latter then I think you are wrong. He is one of the smartest players around and has a very high basketball IQ. You can’t be a good PG without having a good basketball IQ. LeBron is a point forward and plays PG a lot. His distribution and passing are superb.

Kobe is smart too but if anything I would argue that LeBron has the better basketball IQ and I think last season found the perfect balance between scoring and distributing. People say he doesn’t score but his career PPG is up there and he is always the top 10-12 in assists in the league.
10-28-2013 08:30 PM
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carouge Offline
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Post: #1155
RE: The NBA Thread
Lebron is overrated and mostly media hyped,for your typical NBA fan.Most Heat fans=bandwagon. Couldn't find one a few years back
10-28-2013 10:11 PM
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Chewbacon Offline
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Post: #1156
RE: The NBA Thread
I'm going to play devil's advocate here and say Pippen would have been a top 30 all-time player had it not been for Jordan. If he had gotten as much usage as Jordan, he would have been phenomenal. He was the blueprint for a Grant Hill, T-Mac, and Durant. Just look at what the guy did for the depleted bulls during the 2-year Jordan break. They almost went to the finals had it not been for a Knicks call.

Lebron gets a lot of hate because he's not charismatic and he lacks a strong sense of identity. Jordan was a cool motherfucker. He revolutionized the game beyond basketball to the depths of business and pop culture. Kobe has been less influential but he has done an equal amount to really make basketball an adored sport worldwide. Kobe has elevated the game through aesthetics.

Lebron is an unparalleled talent but he just does not command the same type of respect. He still reminds me of a kid trying to feel his way into the world. He's also kind of gaffe prone. And he flops. There's a cognitive dissonance with lebron - something like "the NBA's greatest player should not be so immature." Comparatively, KD I think commands a greater respect, albeit in a quiet manner.
10-28-2013 10:24 PM
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TheSlayer Offline
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RE: The NBA Thread
(10-28-2013 10:24 PM)SHANbangs Wrote:  Lebron gets a lot of hate because he's not charismatic and he lacks a strong sense of identity. Jordan was a cool motherfucker. He revolutionized the game beyond basketball to the depths of business and pop culture. Kobe has been less influential but he has done an equal amount to really make basketball an adored sport worldwide. Kobe has elevated the game through aesthetics.

Lebron is an unparalleled talent but he just does not command the same type of respect. He still reminds me of a kid trying to feel his way into the world. He's also kind of gaffe prone. And he flops. There's a cognitive dissonance with lebron - something like "the NBA's greatest player should not be so immature." Comparatively, KD I think commands a greater respect, albeit in a quiet manner.

I don't think he gets a lot of hate because he lacks a strong sense of identity. Remember, he is the first superstar of this social media generation. Everything he does gets magnified, dissected, and social media makes it seem like everyone hates or dislikes him.

The non-MJ fans or people not rooting for the Bulls in the 1990s never had a platform to voice their collective hate. Now with social media the collective hate a player/team gets spills into the mainstream media. Mainstream media now feeds off social media.

Can you imagine the social media reactions today to Kobe's rape trial in 2004 or the whole Kobe-Shaq fued or MJ punching Kerr in the face during a practice or going to AC to gamble before playoff games? Twitter would have exploded. No way MJ would be adored the way he is now. MJ was an asshole off the court and back then all the reporters loved him so no one said anything about him. In this TMZ era, he would receive a lot of hate on social media as well.

Also, KD is starting to feel some of the heat now. He will get the same type of heat and hate if he doesn't win a title in the next 2-3 seasons that LeBron felt before he finally won his.

Social media influences a lot of sports reporting and analysis these days.

PS. Your point about Pippen being held back by MJ is quite interesting and not one that I have thought about. All we can point to is that in his prime without MJ he was able to lead that Bulls squad to 55 wins, 3rd in MVP voting, and game 7 of the ECFs. I don't know if Pippen had the offensive game to be a top 30 player of all time.
(This post was last modified: 10-28-2013 11:02 PM by TheSlayer.)
10-28-2013 10:51 PM
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Post: #1158
RE: The NBA Thread
(10-28-2013 10:11 PM)carouge Wrote:  Lebron is overrated and mostly media hyped,for your typical NBA fan.

Aw man... you are 2 years too late. Sorry, it ain't 2011 anymore.
10-28-2013 10:51 PM
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RE: The NBA Thread
Where is all this hate for Lebron coming from? He is by far the best player in the NBA right now, and it's not even close. Think about it. Is there any player on your team, or any team, that you wouldn't trade straight up for Lebron without even thinking about it? I might hesitate for a second (but only a second) with Roy Hibbert only because center is such a thin position in the NBA right now.

And Kobe in his prime wasn't all that good. You remember after Shaq left the Lakers and it was Kobe and no one else, and they were barely making the playoffs until they got Pau Gasol? Well Lebron had nobody in Cleaveland, and he carried them on his back to the ECF and the NBA Finals.

Him being better than Jordan? Well, I wouldn't go that far. I remember watching Jordan play, and to this day he's the best I've ever seen. When it's all said and done, he'll definitely belong in the conversation with Jordan, Magic, and Bird. Keep in mind that they play in different eras. It was a much more physical game in Jordan's time. A lot more contact would go uncalled and some of the fouls people used to give back then would get players ejected and suspended for multiple games now. However, zone defenses were illegal back then so you couldn't bring an extra help defender to the strong side of the floor (like Chicago does) to clog things up. Jordan would have definitely had more trouble scoring against the defenses of today, playing the way he did.
10-29-2013 12:02 AM
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Post: #1160
RE: The NBA Thread
(10-28-2013 07:20 PM)TheSlayer Wrote:  I like Horry too but no way he belongs on the list you just posted

I put Horry on that list because he has 7 rings.

I was listing championships.

If Lebron finishes with 2-3 championships. I will have to say that Horry was a greater winner and champion.

Obviously, Lebron is the better player no matter what happens but I like to measure players by their championship pedigree. Championships is what we play for, nothing else.

Lebron needs at least one or two more. He is the most talented player of all time and on this era of changing teams to chase championships, 2 would not be enough to fulfill his potential.

I'm sure he will win a few more, he better, for the sake of his legacy.

My main point in all of this that he was really lucky. He was 30 seconds away from being 1-4 in The Finals. Those last 30 seconds may have saved his career..

If they would have lost, he would have been murdered by the media and those 2 turnovers he had in crunch time of Game 6 would be defining moments in his career.

Not that he still couldn't have salvaged his career, but, 1-4 in The Finals is unthinkable when we talk about Kareem, Magic, Larry, Michael, Timmy, etc.

If Ginobili or Leonard make one free throw, or the Spurs get one rebound, He would have had a lot of work to do to put his name on that list.

Their are great players who are not great winners. Lebron was almost one of them, almost. But, to his credit, he wants to win, he is willing to work and fight for victory. He got it done.

(10-28-2013 08:11 PM)Therapsid Wrote:  One of the reasons I don't care for Lebron so much is because the guy just isn't very smart.

Off the court, I don't know, you might be right.

But, as a player, he has a very, very high IQ. He sees the game like few players can.

(10-28-2013 07:20 PM)TheSlayer Wrote:  Pippen’s own talent

I think you are overrating Scottie. Scottie was not that skilled. He was mostly just a defensive player for most of his career. He was a great athlete but he was not a polished player for the majority of his career.

He could not carry a team as the #1 option.

Once Mike left, he got worse every year. Remember when he threw a towel in his coaches face?

Without Mike, things fell apart very quick.

Scottie's confidence was based on Micheal being next to him. When Mike left, his confidence left, little by little.

(10-28-2013 07:20 PM)TheSlayer Wrote:  I think you are letting your love for Jordan get in the way of some objective analysis. Maybe I am wrong but I know you are usually more fair, objective, and rational.

I am absolutely letting my emotions rule me in this thread. I try to never to that but with the season starting tomorrow, I just wanted to get it all out and start fresh in the morning.

Those last 30 seconds of Game 6 will forever haunt me.

I am known as one of the biggest Spurs fans in San Francisco and that game really had an effect on my reputation, credibility, career, and confidence. My word would have become law, but, instead, I'm just another loser. Fuck! At least we have 4 rings..

"we" Lol!!

(10-28-2013 08:11 PM)Therapsid Wrote:  Malone

Before Stockton retired, I was a Jazz fan. Yes, Michael broke my heart twice in 96 and 97! I watched Karl for years, he was not a terribly smart player and most importantly, HE WAS HORRIBLE IN THE CLUTCH!!!

They were even talking about it on "Open Court" on NBAtv, They all agreed that he was terrible under pressure.

He was great in the regular season because he was in great shape and played with Stockton who made it his life to get the ball to Malone in scoring position.

He was tough, he worked hard, but he wasn't a really smart player and he wasn't mentally anchored enough to be a champion. He had a chance, they could have beaten the Bulls, but he choked.

I just set my dvr for tomorrow's games, Heat-Bulls and Lakers-Spurs.

I will be watching, who am I kidding? I just wish Kobe was playing. Can't wait to see DRose!

Also, The Spurs were really lucky that Westbrook got hurt.

Lebron is maybe the only guy who could have gotten the 07 Cavs to The Finals.

Is Durant the 2nd best player in the world?

Ginobili lost his fucking mind in The Finals. My friends say that Manu really is fucking crazy and you can't even talk to him on game days because he is in his own world. He goes into this weird "trance" like state. His competitiveness rivals Kobe/Mike.

Steph Curry is the best shooter of all time, already.

If I have a son, I might name him Isiah.
10-29-2013 02:31 AM
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Excelsior Offline
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RE: The NBA Thread



You lose money chasing women, but you never lose women chasing money.
10-29-2013 03:40 AM
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RE: The NBA Thread
(10-28-2013 08:11 PM)Therapsid Wrote:  One of the reasons I don't care for Lebron so much is because the guy just isn't very smart. He's not dumb by NBA standards, but he's not sharp either. Wade is clearly smarter, for instance.

I've always preferred the players who combine a keen intelligence with athletic prowess and skill.

Jordan, Magic, Bird, Malone, Isiah, all of these men visibly gave the impression of intelligence. Kobe is probably one of the smartest players in the league.

Lebron isn't at that level. There's something still juvenile about him to me, quite frankly. That's fine, because he's more physically gifted than any other player of all time and he's proven that he has a strong work ethic.

WRONG.

You have obviously never seen the man play. He's a genius.

I bet he has very strong IQ.

He is a little juvenile - but thats just his personality - he likes to play around - a jokester - like Shaq
10-29-2013 07:02 AM
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RE: The NBA Thread


10-29-2013 10:42 AM
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RE: The NBA Thread
Some of you are trolling Pippen, lol. Dude was one of the all-time greats. Something like 8 All-NBA Defensive first teams in a row, same amount of All-NBA first teams, always near leading the league in steals, could guard anybody… one of the best defensive players ever. Better than Mike, in that regard. Could handle the ball, had court vision, could score from anywhere on the court, had a sweet finger roll the best bank shot in the game. When Jordan left, he led the Bulls in every statistical category the next season, though I don't even care to entertain that "with or without Jordan" argument. Talking about Jordan making his teammates better…why doesn't anyone say Pip made Jordan a better player? He took pressure of him on O, lots of pressure of him on D. The two of them alone could make teams look stupid, straight up troll them. Poke steal, block, down the court in a few strides, throw it down in their center's face or kick it out to Pax, Hodges, BJ, or Kerr for another trey. Sure, MJ was dropping 37 a game and putting up 63 against the Celtics in the playoffs, but until Scottie came along and started to rip shit, he was basically a big-time scorer with zero pro championships. Phil was a zen master on the sidelines, and Pip was like a ninja on the court who would lurk just outside the spotlight (MJ) and pick people off when they let their guard down. Smirk and run back down the court unassumingly. He didn't back down from anybody, took some lumps, and had MJ's back through thick and thin. #33 was a bad motherfucker. Respect due.
10-29-2013 12:05 PM
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Post: #1165
RE: The NBA Thread
(10-29-2013 12:05 PM)thirty-six Wrote:  Some of you are trolling Pippen, lol. Dude was one of the all-time greats. Something like 8 All-NBA Defensive first teams in a row, same amount of All-NBA first teams, always near leading the league in steals, could guard anybody… one of the best defensive players ever. Better than Mike, in that regard. Could handle the ball, had court vision, could score from anywhere on the court, had a sweet finger roll the best bank shot in the game. When Jordan left, he led the Bulls in every statistical category the next season, though I don't even care to entertain that "with or without Jordan" argument. Talking about Jordan making his teammates better…why doesn't anyone say Pip made Jordan a better player? He took pressure of him on O, lots of pressure of him on D. The two of them alone could make teams look stupid, straight up troll them. Poke steal, block, down the court in a few strides, throw it down in their center's face or kick it out to Pax, Hodges, BJ, or Kerr for another trey. Sure, MJ was dropping 37 a game and putting up 63 against the Celtics in the playoffs, but until Scottie came along and started to rip shit, he was basically a big-time scorer with zero pro championships. Phil was a zen master on the sidelines, and Pip was like a ninja on the court who would lurk just outside the spotlight (MJ) and pick people off when they let their guard down. Smirk and run back down the court unassumingly. He didn't back down from anybody, took some lumps, and had MJ's back through thick and thin. #33 was a bad motherfucker. Respect due.

THIS.

Plus, in NBA Jam 95, Pippen had the highest player rating. HE WAS BETTER THAN EVERYBODY AND HE WAS ALWAYS ON FIRE!
10-29-2013 12:38 PM
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RE: The NBA Thread
(10-29-2013 10:42 AM)Professor Fox Wrote:  




I see the Bulls taking it home this year. Everybody is talking about the Heat, but with a healthy D-Rose, they have a shot. Im not surprised by this at all.
10-29-2013 12:47 PM
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El_Superbeasto Offline
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RE: The NBA Thread




How Michael Jordan really feels about the Kobe vs Lebron question.
10-29-2013 11:58 PM
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RE: The NBA Thread
Huge win for the lakers tonight. Maybe they won't be as bad as I thought.
10-30-2013 02:37 AM
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RE: The NBA Thread
(10-30-2013 02:37 AM)InternationPlayboy Wrote:  Huge win for the lakers tonight. Maybe they won't be as bad as I thought.

I don't even like the Lakers and it was entertaining to watch the Lakers' scrubs beat down the Clippers' starters. It is quite amazing that the bench scored last 48 points for the Lakers.

For all of his faults, D'Antoni really knows how to create offense. With this year's bench he has young athletes that he prefers to run up and down the court and jack up 3s.

I still don't think the Lakers are going to be good this year. Best case scenario I see them getting the 8th seed and then getting swept.
10-30-2013 12:51 PM
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RE: The NBA Thread
(10-30-2013 02:37 AM)InternationPlayboy Wrote:  Huge win for the lakers tonight. Maybe they won't be as bad as I thought.

It's one game. I believe they made at least ten threes in one quarter? Their bench had everything to do with it. If their starters do that against the Clippers again expect a blowout next time.

A man is only as faithful as his options-Chris Rock
10-30-2013 01:32 PM
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RE: The NBA Thread
We'll see, they have another big game tonight against golden state.
10-30-2013 01:52 PM
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RE: The NBA Thread
I have a decent connection within the nba, I won't repeat it again, but I think I mentioned it many pages ago on this thread. I spoke to him a month or so ago and he believes outside of select specialized players, there will be very few guys who cannot shoot the 3 ball at a good clip.

The analytical guys are gaining legitimate influence in the front office and the analytics overwhelmingly prove the extraordinary value of the 3.
10-30-2013 03:43 PM
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RE: The NBA Thread
(10-30-2013 03:43 PM)MaleDefined Wrote:  I have a decent connection within the nba, I won't repeat it again, but I think I mentioned it many pages ago on this thread. I spoke to him a month or so ago and he believes outside of select specialized players, there will be very few guys who cannot shoot the 3 ball at a good clip.

The analytical guys are gaining legitimate influence in the front office and the analytics overwhelmingly prove the extraordinary value of the 3.

It's such a shame. I agree with old school guys like Popovich and Larry Brown. We'd be better off without the three point line.

It was fun at first, up through the 1990's at least. But gradually it's wrecking the game. I'm sure your contact is right - it will only get worse.

I wish they would at least move the line back some inches as the shot becomes more ubiquitous.
10-30-2013 03:48 PM
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TheSlayer Offline
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RE: The NBA Thread
(10-30-2013 03:43 PM)MaleDefined Wrote:  I have a decent connection within the nba, I won't repeat it again, but I think I mentioned it many pages ago on this thread. I spoke to him a month or so ago and he believes outside of select specialized players, there will be very few guys who cannot shoot the 3 ball at a good clip.

The analytical guys are gaining legitimate influence in the front office and the analytics overwhelmingly prove the extraordinary value of the 3.

Yeah, I remember your connection. I have also been reading a lot about the importance of the 3 over the last two years and it is going to become a more and more important weapon for many teams. Just look at the Spurs and Heat from last year: both are teams which specialize in getting open looks for their 3 point shooters.

This also means that 3 & D guys will become more and more sought after. Personally, I like the ball movement which comes with 3s and it is a departure from the hero and iso ball of the 90s and early 2000s.

Teams and the analytic guys are also pushing for more team scoring. The number of 20 PPG scorers has steadily declined in the NBA and superstars who can legitimately get their own 25-30 PPG are becoming more rare.
10-30-2013 03:51 PM
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RE: The NBA Thread
(10-30-2013 03:48 PM)Therapsid Wrote:  It's such a shame. I agree with old school guys like Popovich and Larry Brown. We'd be better off without the three point line.

Pop is one of the practitioners of the 3 point line, specifically the corner 3. The Spurs are and have been one of the best team 3 point shooting teams for a while. After the D'Antoni Suns, the Spurs were one of the first team to adapt and created their offense around Parker playing more off the ball, coming off multiple picks, getting open mid-range shots or kicking it out for open 3s. They also benefit from having Duncan in the low post who has to be doubled and opens up many open looks for his team's 3 point shooters.

Hell, without Green's incredibly hot 3 point shooting in the first 5 games, the Spurs don't take the Heat to 7.

I am not sure when and if Pop said that about the 3 point line but I doubt he feels the same now when 3 point shooting has been instrumental in Spurs' recent resurgence (WCF and Finals last two years are nothing to laugh about and really they should have won last year but Ray killed them from the 3 lol, sorry I had to).
(This post was last modified: 10-30-2013 03:58 PM by TheSlayer.)
10-30-2013 03:53 PM
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