Roosh V Forum
What is the most valuable class to study to make more money? - Printable Version

+- Roosh V Forum (https://www.rooshvforum.com)
+-- Forum: Main (/forum-1.html)
+--- Forum: Life (/forum-14.html)
+--- Thread: What is the most valuable class to study to make more money? (/thread-13902.html)

Pages: 1 2


What is the most valuable class to study to make more money? - beta_plus - 06-25-2012 10:14 AM

With the education bubble in full force and no way to predict when exactly when it will pop, I was wondering what single class is the most financially valuable to study. If one were to take one class, or get one certification, or self study the equivalent of a 3 credit university class, or some other means of learning, which subject (not a degree) provides the greatest potential increase in one's income? I realize that there is no substitute for professional experience, but if you don't get the knowledge to do the professional job properly, you'll just crash and burn - I speak from painful experience.

I have a quantitative finance/economics education and many of my friends and colleagues have engineering degrees. One thing that I've noticed, especially with the engineers, is that they do jobs that really can't be considered engineering at all and usually claim to use none of their education or just a couple of classes at most. In my case I use very little beyond the programming classes that I took.

While I do believe that Mechanical Engineering teaches a very valuable way of thinking, the reason that I'm asking this question is that I was wondering if it was possible to create an education hack - that is only study what is absolutely necessary for actually using to get an increase in income. I could see this being valuable for people in school as well as in the work force, since they could spend their free time getting a skill that would get them more money over the summer break.


RE: What is the most valuable class to study to make more money? - kosko - 06-25-2012 10:39 AM

Easy. A trade.

No other type of class/program will get you using the actually skills you learn sooner and for decent pay.


RE: What is the most valuable class to study to make more money? - jackson.henley - 06-25-2012 11:08 AM

(06-25-2012 10:14 AM)beta_plus Wrote:  With the education bubble in full force and no way to predict when exactly when it will pop, I was wondering what single class is the most financially valuable to study. If one were to take one class, or get one certification, or self study the equivalent of a 3 credit university class, or some other means of learning, which subject (not a degree) provides the greatest potential increase in one's income? I realize that there is no substitute for professional experience, but if you don't get the knowledge to do the professional job properly, you'll just crash and burn - I speak from painful experience.

I have a quantitative finance/economics education and many of my friends and colleagues have engineering degrees. One thing that I've noticed, especially with the engineers, is that they do jobs that really can't be considered engineering at all and usually claim to use none of their education or just a couple of classes at most. In my case I use very little beyond the programming classes that I took.

While I do believe that Mechanical Engineering teaches a very valuable way of thinking, the reason that I'm asking this question is that I was wondering if it was possible to create an education hack - that is only study what is absolutely necessary for actually using to get an increase in income. I could see this being valuable for people in school as well as in the work force, since they could spend their free time getting a skill that would get them more money over the summer break.

At you hinted at, you are dealing with a moving target. Computer Science/Engineering is doing surprisingly well, due to the VC funded start-ups and infrastructural IT expansion in developing countries and boom towns (new business and IT go hand in hand).

Also, finance has blended a lot into CS on a practical as well as theoretical level.

(However, don't think for a minute that there are many 70,000+ USD jobs being given out based on merit these days).


RE: What is the most valuable class to study to make more money? - jackson.henley - 06-25-2012 11:09 AM

(06-25-2012 10:39 AM)kosko Wrote:  Easy. A trade.

No other type of class/program will get you using the actually skills you learn sooner and for decent pay.

Not just any. Plumbing is drying up. Not enough new homes being bought.


RE: What is the most valuable class to study to make more money? - joehoya - 06-25-2012 12:58 PM

Take a CS course, specifically one that teaches programming. Once you have learned the basics you can teach yourself the rest. I had a grand total of 5 CS courses in college and have been working in that field ever since I graduated.

Some schools offer nice standalone courses for non CS majors. Make sure that the course teaches PROGRAMMING primarily, not some intro to the great ideas of computer science or some other bullshit like that. I have seen courses for non-majors that teach Python for researchers and scientists (Python is really popular for manipulating data). I have seen others teach Ruby or PHP for web programming, which would be good too. My first REAL programming course was in C++. However, it was only good for teaching me the mechanics of coding and the thought process. I have not coded in C++ for work ever.

I notice that you are a finance/econ major. In that case, a course in Visual Basic would be VERY helpful. Finance guys often deal with a lot of models in Excel, and part of the power user Excel skills are writing macros in VB. I am being 100% serious when I tell you that, having worked in finance, I have seen guys hired, promoted, and retained when others were being fired, primarily because they were the only one's in the department who know how to work VB macros well for Excel.

The key is coding enough so that you get the thought process down. Back when I was a noob and programming, one of my mentors told me that eventually it would get to a point where I could read the documentation for a new programming language and learn it over a weekend. At the time that sounded as believable as being able to pick up a Japanese dictionary and learn to speak Japanese over the weekend. Now, 12+ years after I first started coding I found myself doing that twice in the last 6 months.


RE: What is the most valuable class to study to make more money? - JayMillz - 06-25-2012 07:40 PM

Whatever you decide, I hope it's something that you really enjoy doing. I know you're on a paper chase, but there is something to be said about loving what you do ... something you can be passionate about.


RE: What is the most valuable class to study to make more money? - HiFlo - 06-25-2012 08:07 PM

You don't take just one class to study to make more money. You don't learn to make money from school, or from class.

You make money by going the corporate route and excelling in ALL your classes to land a cushy job. Or you make money by going solo, think Bill Gates. One path is safe & relatively secure, the other is barren and rocky.

Basically Either apply yourself in ALL your classes or don't apply yourself at all in school.


RE: What is the most valuable class to study to make more money? - JofSuperman - 06-25-2012 10:00 PM

I wouldn't say a class, I would say just read a book.


RE: What is the most valuable class to study to make more money? - rudebwoy - 06-25-2012 10:48 PM

(06-25-2012 11:09 AM)jackson.henley Wrote:  
(06-25-2012 10:39 AM)kosko Wrote:  Easy. A trade.

No other type of class/program will get you using the actually skills you learn sooner and for decent pay.

Not just any. Plumbing is drying up. Not enough new homes being bought.

A Trade will set you up for life, most young people don't want to do jobs were they get there hands dirty. I know older dudes who went back on got trades in there 40's.

Not sure where you live, but there are alot of unemployed computer science majors where I live.


RE: What is the most valuable class to study to make more money? - RichieP - 06-25-2012 11:53 PM

People do well and badly across all industries and crafts, from bartending and freelance writing up to consulting, engineering and investment banking. It's more about your personal success skills and going for something that plays to your strengths/passions IMO.

The education hack:

-learning how to learn quickly and efficiently and identify the 80/20 actions
-Applying that to the exact core things that will actually make you money, in whatever craft you want to pursue

Beyond that, reading a shitload of great books on business, freelancing, personal finance, networking, marketing, and sales - all these skills are universal to making your way in the world, whatever your actual craft.

Obviously some crafts are more lucrative than others. But it shifts with time, and people do well and badly in any profession and industry. Once you've found something worth doing that appeals to you though, IMO the fundamental success skills are what make or break how well you do with it.


RE: What is the most valuable class to study to make more money? - UgSlayer - 06-25-2012 11:58 PM

(06-25-2012 10:48 PM)rudebwoy Wrote:  
(06-25-2012 11:09 AM)jackson.henley Wrote:  
(06-25-2012 10:39 AM)kosko Wrote:  Easy. A trade.

No other type of class/program will get you using the actually skills you learn sooner and for decent pay.

Not just any. Plumbing is drying up. Not enough new homes being bought.

A Trade will set you up for life, most young people don't want to do jobs were they get there hands dirty. I know older dudes who went back on got trades in there 40's.

Not sure where you live, but there are alot of unemployed computer science majors where I live.

Where do you live, south dakota? Not trying to be abrasive, but computer science is highly sought after if the person is even halfway decent.


RE: What is the most valuable class to study to make more money? - joehoya - 06-26-2012 12:49 AM

(06-25-2012 11:58 PM)UgSlayer Wrote:  
(06-25-2012 10:48 PM)rudebwoy Wrote:  
(06-25-2012 11:09 AM)jackson.henley Wrote:  
(06-25-2012 10:39 AM)kosko Wrote:  Easy. A trade.

No other type of class/program will get you using the actually skills you learn sooner and for decent pay.

Not just any. Plumbing is drying up. Not enough new homes being bought.

A Trade will set you up for life, most young people don't want to do jobs were they get there hands dirty. I know older dudes who went back on got trades in there 40's.

Not sure where you live, but there are alot of unemployed computer science majors where I live.

Where do you live, south dakota? Not trying to be abrasive, but computer science is highly sought after if the person is even halfway decent.

Gotta agree here. Perhaps if you are in the middle of nowhere it is hard to find tech/programming jobs. However, if you are willing to move and to update your skills the jobs are readily available. The only CS folks I know that are unemployed either a) have been working with some legacy system for the past 25 years (e.g. mainframe or assembly programming) that is now not very popular and refuse to update their skills and create a project portfolio or b) gotten to the point of high level management where they are completely detached from the code and refuse to go back to coding.

There was a point right after the dotcom bust where it was a challenge getting a job if you didn't have a degree and corporate experience in the specific technologies recruiters wanted. Now, even if you don't have corporate experience, if you have projects you can show employers so that they can see the quality of your code you WILL get hired.

One of the really popular things now is people put their code on GitHub and allow anyone to download it and examine it. If you had a nice collection of projects on get hub (degree or no degree) you could hop on a bus to San Francisco/Silicon Valley and you would have a job in a matter of weeks.


RE: What is the most valuable class to study to make more money? - beta_plus - 06-27-2012 10:51 PM

(06-25-2012 12:58 PM)joehoya Wrote:  Take a CS course, specifically one that teaches programming. Once you have learned the basics you can teach yourself the rest. I had a grand total of 5 CS courses in college and have been working in that field ever since I graduated.

Some schools offer nice standalone courses for non CS majors. Make sure that the course teaches PROGRAMMING primarily, not some intro to the great ideas of computer science or some other bullshit like that. I have seen courses for non-majors that teach Python for researchers and scientists (Python is really popular for manipulating data). I have seen others teach Ruby or PHP for web programming, which would be good too. My first REAL programming course was in C++. However, it was only good for teaching me the mechanics of coding and the thought process. I have not coded in C++ for work ever.

I notice that you are a finance/econ major. In that case, a course in Visual Basic would be VERY helpful. Finance guys often deal with a lot of models in Excel, and part of the power user Excel skills are writing macros in VB. I am being 100% serious when I tell you that, having worked in finance, I have seen guys hired, promoted, and retained when others were being fired, primarily because they were the only one's in the department who know how to work VB macros well for Excel.

The key is coding enough so that you get the thought process down. Back when I was a noob and programming, one of my mentors told me that eventually it would get to a point where I could read the documentation for a new programming language and learn it over a weekend. At the time that sounded as believable as being able to pick up a Japanese dictionary and learn to speak Japanese over the weekend. Now, 12+ years after I first started coding I found myself doing that twice in the last 6 months.

Heh. I'm actually very good at excel & VBA, to the point where I use the object model and create simple classes for myself. I'm also studying for the O'Reilly Python certification after which I will do Perl and LAMP. I know that I will need to actually do some projects afterwards, but we all need to start somewhere and it sucks studying independently to find out later that no one believes you.

My point is that your post gave me some really nice reassurance that I am on the right path. Thank you.


RE: What is the most valuable class to study to make more money? - kolovrat - 06-28-2012 04:35 AM

Based on starting salaries from my alma mater, CS is a clear winner, followed by Applied Math, Statistics, various Engineering specializations, Management, and Economics.

Of course you need to have the requisite IQ and drive for this.

If you hate math, don't bother with those. (To get high salaries in Economics related fields you simply HAVE to be very proficient with math and computer modeling I am sorry to say).

Instead, do a more respectable social science or humanity such as history, linguistics, philosophy (not kidding), political economy, or rhetoric.

That's as far as my experience goes. Becoming somewhat proficient in web design and programming is probably the most reliable way to create a "muse" (location-independent income stream). Or you can become an online "lifestyle artist" like Roosh but for that you need real good game and competent writing skills.


RE: What is the most valuable class to study to make more money? - FilMor - 06-29-2012 02:27 PM

HTML, CSS & PHP Smile


RE: What is the most valuable class to study to make more money? - Roosh - 06-29-2012 02:32 PM

If you want to sell, then probably something in psychology or propaganda.

Or you can just buy this book: http://www.amazon.com/Influence-Psychology-Persuasion-Business-Essentials/dp/006124189X/


RE: What is the most valuable class to study to make more money? - Fathom - 06-29-2012 06:30 PM

(06-29-2012 02:27 PM)FilMor Wrote:  HTML, CSS & PHP Smile

Pardon the ignorance but I see everyone mentioning these. Aren't these relatively easy? And isn't everyone and his grandmother already doing this? How can these be lucrative exactly, are we saying they will get you a 9-5 job or that they can land you freelance work?


RE: What is the most valuable class to study to make more money? - JofSuperman - 06-29-2012 08:28 PM

Anybody telling you that you are going to hack life just by taking one computer science class is deluding you.

I'm a computer engineer and all the people in this field will blow you out of the water. Some of us have been hacking with computers since we were in 7th grade.

With that out of the way, one course that could help out, but requires previous programming experience is the Stanford course on building iPhone applications. It's available for free online on YouTube and iTunes U.

If you master that course you could start making your own iPhone apps and that might lead to a big payday.


RE: What is the most valuable class to study to make more money? - UrbanNerd - 06-29-2012 09:24 PM

The cool thing about computer science is that you don't need to take ALL of the required courses to be employable. I was an Applied Math major but always was aiming at CS-related work. I learned awhile back that you didn't need the WHOLE CS curriculum just the following courses:

Object-Oriented Programming I & II (either in Java or C++, depending on school).
Data Structures & Algorithms
Operating Systems
Database Systems
Computer Networks

Other "nice to have courses" would be Organization of Programming Languages and Software Engineering.

You can pretty much qualify for most software engineering jobs with the above courses because it gives you the foundation to LEARN NEW TECHNOLOGY...which is the key to the whole software engineering industry. Those 6, 7 or 8 CS courses can be easily taken within an Applied Math, Physics, or Finance curriculum. Don't worry about the math because you only need up to Calculus II for most CS courses.


RE: What is the most valuable class to study to make more money? - WestIndianArchie - 06-30-2012 10:42 AM

(06-29-2012 08:28 PM)JofSuperman Wrote:  Anybody telling you that you are going to hack life just by taking one computer science class is deluding you.

I'm a computer engineer and all the people in this field will blow you out of the water. Some of us have been hacking with computers since we were in 7th grade.

With that out of the way, one course that could help out, but requires previous programming experience is the Stanford course on building iPhone applications. It's available for free online on YouTube and iTunes U.

If you master that course you could start making your own iPhone apps and that might lead to a big payday.

Good looking out on the iPhone App class.


RE: What is the most valuable class to study to make more money? - joehoya - 06-30-2012 11:22 AM

(06-29-2012 08:28 PM)JofSuperman Wrote:  Anybody telling you that you are going to hack life just by taking one computer science class is deluding you.

I'm a computer engineer and all the people in this field will blow you out of the water. Some of us have been hacking with computers since we were in 7th grade.

The thing about the industry right now is that there is an EXTREMELY broad range of skill levels needed for work, much more so than even 10 years ago. Because of that, there are folks with basic skills that are going to be able to gain entry into the field.

You talk about being a computer engineer and having been hacking computers since you were in the 7th grade. This is actually a PERFECT example of what I am talking about. Someone with that skill level WILL NOT be doing many of the jobs needed today. There is a TON of work out there for folks who just need some basic web programming done.

The days of only large corporations hiring programmers are over. Back when I got into the field (12 years ago) the only folks hiring programmers were large corporations, the government, some non-profits (research institutes and universities), and VC funded startups.

Now, there are folks with small businesses,and even single person shops, that need programming work done. They don't need some computer engineer who has been hacking since he was in the 7th grade to build some distributed, multi-threaded Point-of-Sale system. Maybe they just need someone with basic PHP and Javascript skills to build an extension for the Magento shopping cart that allows it to better integrate with their website. Or perhaps they want a custom SEO plugin for their Wordpress powered website.

I've been doing database development for financial institutions (and making a decent living at it) for a while. However, my cousin has been doing web design with little more than Dreamweaver and Adobe Flash for about the same amount of time, and she is able to support herself and her daughter on that just fine. She isn't some awesome graphic designer or anything. She just has a skill that non-technical people don't have and are willing to pay for.

In my younger, dumber, days I used to laugh at folks who called themselves VBA and Excel "programmers". Yet, there are folks making SERIOUS money (in some cases 6 figures) doing just that. Does someone need to take a Computer Architecture, Systems Programing, Analysis of Algorithm, or Theory of Computation courses to do that? Of course not. Yet that is an extremely in-demand skill set.

Also, keep in mind that a few intro courses is a great base to build upon. That will get your foot in the door but, as I am sure you already know, this is an industry where one needs to constantly continue to educate themselves if they want to advance. That may involve just picking up additional skills, or it may involve going on to get a formal degree in the field. It all depends on where you are and where you want to go.

The key question to ask yourself is "Will this skill that I learn enable me to provide demonstrable VALUE to a customer?" If the answer is yes, it is likely to be a skill that will make you money.


RE: What is the most valuable class to study to make more money? - Newb#3 - 06-30-2012 01:12 PM

For those in this thread who are coders or do some coding on the job, I have a few questions.

What resources or way do you think are good for learning to code without going to school and getting a degree in CS? I'm entering my last year of undergrad for Economics, and I won't be able to take all of the CS courses that were suggested. So far I've been just going through the videos on Udacity's intro to programming class, but that's really just a start.

What are good languages/software to learn? I'm familiar with HTML and CSS, I've used Stata and will have to learn R for a financial econometrics class I'm taking right now. And of course I am slowly learning Python from the Udacity course. Should I go through the Standford University videos and learn a language more along the lines of Java/C++/Objective-C?

For a guy who is looking to get into something finance and economics related, what can I do to bring up the software side of my skill set to help my chances? I am decent with Excel, but as someone suggested I should probably get comfortable with Visual Basic. Are there any certifications or ways I can signal that I am good with these on my resume once I improve?

Thanks to anyone who can offer advice. Sorry if I'm wasting anyone's time.


RE: What is the most valuable class to study to make more money? - Neo - 06-30-2012 03:47 PM

(06-30-2012 01:12 PM)Newb#3 Wrote:  For those in this thread who are coders or do some coding on the job, I have a few questions.

What resources or way do you think are good for learning to code without going to school and getting a degree in CS? I'm entering my last year of undergrad for Economics, and I won't be able to take all of the CS courses that were suggested. So far I've been just going through the videos on Udacity's intro to programming class, but that's really just a start.

What are good languages/software to learn? I'm familiar with HTML and CSS, I've used Stata and will have to learn R for a financial econometrics class I'm taking right now. And of course I am slowly learning Python from the Udacity course. Should I go through the Standford University videos and learn a language more along the lines of Java/C++/Objective-C?

For a guy who is looking to get into something finance and economics related, what can I do to bring up the software side of my skill set to help my chances? I am decent with Excel, but as someone suggested I should probably get comfortable with Visual Basic. Are there any certifications or ways I can signal that I am good with these on my resume once I improve?

Thanks to anyone who can offer advice. Sorry if I'm wasting anyone's time.

Interested in answers to this question as well. I was a computer science major for a year and took programming courses in C and C++, in addition to a few other CS courses. I haven't programmed anything in years, but would like to spend 1-2 hours a day learning a useful skill that I can use to make some extra cash.


RE: What is the most valuable class to study to make more money? - JofSuperman - 06-30-2012 11:09 PM

I cannot vouch enough for YouTube and iTunes U.

You will find entire semester courses on nearly any subject you want from Stanford, MIT and other ivy leagues.

Here's a start, free online programming course from Stanford. Has grading, which is optional, but they give you a certificate saying you took their course and got X% in it if that's important to anyone.

http://stanford.edu/online/courses


RE: What is the most valuable class to study to make more money? - beta_plus - 07-01-2012 10:31 AM

(06-30-2012 01:12 PM)Newb#3 Wrote:  For those in this thread who are coders or do some coding on the job, I have a few questions.

What resources or way do you think are good for learning to code without going to school and getting a degree in CS? I'm entering my last year of undergrad for Economics, and I won't be able to take all of the CS courses that were suggested. So far I've been just going through the videos on Udacity's intro to programming class, but that's really just a start.

What are good languages/software to learn? I'm familiar with HTML and CSS, I've used Stata and will have to learn R for a financial econometrics class I'm taking right now. And of course I am slowly learning Python from the Udacity course. Should I go through the Standford University videos and learn a language more along the lines of Java/C++/Objective-C?

For a guy who is looking to get into something finance and economics related, what can I do to bring up the software side of my skill set to help my chances? I am decent with Excel, but as someone suggested I should probably get comfortable with Visual Basic. Are there any certifications or ways I can signal that I am good with these on my resume once I improve?

Thanks to anyone who can offer advice. Sorry if I'm wasting anyone's time.

First and foremost - DO NOT GO TO GRAD SCHOOL UNLESS YOU ARE A CHILD PRODIGY. Even if you get a free ride from a school or if your parents pay, don't do it unless you truly think at a different level. It is highly unlikely that your undergraduate education has prepared you at all for graduate work in Economics - anyone who tells you otherwise doesn't know what they are talking about or is lying to you to get your money. MBAs are a waste of money unless you are a superb at networking. If you decide to go anyway, read Getting What You Came For and Business School Confidential. There is a bright side to this which I will discuss a little later.

For computing, I would take the OReilly online courses in Python since you already have a background in it. These should give you a reasonable level of familiarity with most of what Python can do, as well as give you a piece of paper to get through the HR barrier. Remember that certifications are not worthless. They get you through the HR barrier, they don't you the job. Getting through the HR barrier is worth something. Plus, it gives you greater confidence in your abilities. It is also relatively quick to learn and you can use it for useful things right away - something that you can't really do with compiled languages. Also, be sure to continue studying things like LAMP - it's how the world now communicates and comes in handy no matter what you do.

For stats packages, I'd look into the first two SAS certifications, but be warned they are brutally hard - I had to write 3000 flash cards by hand to pass them. I'm not sure that they are worth your time before you get a job, but if you do get a job in finance where SAS/Stata/R is used, do take them.

For Java vs. C++, I'd look at C++, simply because most financial and economic organizations use C++ for their heavy computation needs - while java isn't nearly as slow as it used to be, C++ is still the king when it comes to speed. Keep in mind that true expertise in C++ takes a long time. I would advise finding an online certification program in it (I believe UCSD has one). Make sure that you study for the classes before you take them by reading the textbook beforehand and doing all of the examples and simple problems. You're not going to have time working full time to go into the classes cold. This will take probably 4 years but if you break it up enough and study 20 minutes a day - no less and no more - it won't be too painful.

For excel and vba, that's a tough call. Excel is a great product. It is the world's best scratch sheet for figuring out problems. However, it is terrible for production work (monthly reports are an example of production work). The cost of its ease of use is that it is very hard to make it reliable. If you are at an organization that uses it for production work, that's usually a red flag that they cut corners. If they don't use SAS, Stata, or R to get their work done I would walk away. If you decide to learn VBA, buy Walkenbach's Excel VBA for dummies and Mr. Excel's VBA Programming books.

Now back to economics and finance. All is not bleak but there are 3 things that will help you get ahead in economics and finance area:
1) the first two actuarial exams (probability theory and time value of money)

2) poker

3) starcraft II

The first one is by far the most important. Actuaries actually get to do real life economics, they get paid better, worked less hours, and have the option of living in cities that don't have sky high cost of living like New York, London, and SF. The exams are DIRT cheap - $180 a pop the last time I looked. There is a very competitive market for prep material, so the cost for text books is extremely low. The first exam is just calculus base probability theory - hopefully you've already but if not check out these guys - http://netmath.illinois.edu/courses#461. The second is just what you would learn in a good intro corporate finance course. The catch? The exams are brutally hard - 60% failure rates. They ask questions that you wonder if you could answer in 6 days let alone the 6 minutes that they give you. Expect to fail each exam several times before passing.

The other two are important if you want to aim to be a trader. For i-banks and other investment firms, it's the only job worth having. Everyone else gets treated like garbage. Poker teaches you to handle making decisions with money in real time under stress. It's very important that you do your homework on poker first and that you use money that you had to work for yourself - it has to sting when you lose because you're trying to conquer your fear of losing money before the law of large numbers kicks in - it's a bit like getting over approach anxiety. Starcraft II will give you the ability to think analytically under competition in a real time environment. I strongly suggest these two things be the least of your pursuits.