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[Investing] How much is enough? At what passive income level would you stop working? - Printable Version

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RE: How much is enough? At what passive income level would you stop working? - Brodiaga - 01-31-2016 06:44 PM

(01-31-2016 06:28 PM)Onto Wrote:  One thing to consider is there may come a point where you just can't work anymore. Not just physically, but psychologically. I'm at that point now with software consulting. I just can't stand it anymore. Maybe if I take 4 months off I'll have the desire to do it again for a while. I don't know, but I do know my current gig will be my last for a while

Nasa is right about needing to feel psychologically comfortable with the money you have, but we won't know what that is until we just dive in and start swimming and sometimes you just have to make do with what you have anyway. I don't want to waste the rest of my mid-late 40s in a cube working on yet another shitty project with shitty people.

Minimum monthly expenses for most anywhere in the world is going to be $1,000/month. You can get by in many pussy-paradises with that. Won't leave much for extras, but if you want to bootstrap for a while it's do-able and in some places for less than that.

The main thing is developing the three things necessary to keep your boat afloat.

1) Passive Income
2) Savings
3) Low Expenses

Even if you're in your 20's you should be building your ark, because you never know when the storm might come.

This is spot on. I will add that there is a trade-off between building up a large nest egg and putting up with bullshit at work for those of us who weren't born into rich families.

You can bust your ass until age 60 and become a multi millionaire if you have a decent job and know how to handle money, but where is the fun in that?

Alternatively, you can retire in your 40s or even 30s with a fraction of the money and live within your means.

Also, why would anybody choose a place like New York to live as a location independent person is beyond me. New York is good for two categories or people: those who make good money and those who live on government benefits. If you are anywhere in between, you're better off elsewhere.

I could live even on 1K/month in today's dollars in many places in SEA. This kind of life would be quite boring and monotonous, but better than the life of some poor soul who is struggling in New York on say 50K/year.


RE: How much is enough? At what passive income level would you stop working? - Parzival - 01-31-2016 07:18 PM

(01-31-2016 06:36 PM)Peregrine Wrote:  
Quote:40-50 K is almost baller status for a single male in southern Spain.

Thanks for sharing. I had no idea. I'm assuming it's because of the rampant unemployment? What's stopping financially independent people from moving there and driving up the prices?

When you earn this even in germany, you are not top but above average. Then you should just care about your retirement plan, inflation and stuff like that.

http://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/164047/umfrage/jahresarbeitslohn-in-deutschland-seit-1960/

The average salary in Germany in 2014 is 31,981 €


RE: How much is enough? At what passive income level would you stop working? - CleanSlate - 01-31-2016 07:53 PM

I picked 80k a year because I think you can live almost anywhere in the world on that income. It might be tight in the most expensive cities like NYC, Tokyo, etc but outside of those few wallet busting cities, there's an entire world and a whole bunch of poosy paradises where you can live on a fraction of that income and save big.

40k might limit your options to maybe 50-70% of the world, whereas increasing that to 80k might give you access to 99% where you can live comfortably. Plus that works in your favor if you ever want to start a family, or smooth over emergencies and medical mishaps.


RE: How much is enough? At what passive income level would you stop working? - samsamsam - 01-31-2016 08:14 PM

(01-31-2016 07:18 PM)Parzival Wrote:  When you earn this even in germany, you are not top but above average. Then you should just care about your retirement plan, inflation and stuff like that.

http://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/164047/umfrage/jahresarbeitslohn-in-deutschland-seit-1960/

The average salary in Germany in 2014 is 31,981 €

I bet refugees get bigger checks than the Germans who work hard for a living.


RE: How much is enough? At what passive income level would you stop working? - Pyrrhic victory - 01-31-2016 10:18 PM

160k/4m

Real estate combined with aggressive savings worked for me. I am in my mid 30s and am at this level Now and am contemplating an early retirement. I live a very simple life and drive a used pickup with minimal expenses. I eat out twice a week , pack my own lunch and don't give a damn about what anyone says or thinks.

The whole reason of getting into real estate was My family Purchased a couple of properties in NYC 30 years ago. I would help them while I was young with cleaning the properties , painting and collecting rent. I took an immediate liking to real estate and memorized the art of the deal by trump at a young age.

The NYC market in mid 90s was shit. And if you were sitting on capital could have purchased properties for 5 to 10 percent of what the market price is now.

The key is to talk to the old timers about the ups and downs of the business cycles they experienced in addition to market research. Talk to people who live and own businesses in the area you are looking to invest. I make it a point to only eat and shop in areas where I'm looking to invest. I talk to the cashiers , janitors To get real time street knowledge. I want to know about families , school performance , police Etc.

Either way, I wanted to make it on my own and went through the 80 - 90 hour work weeks to accomplish it. I don't count my families money as mine as I did not work for it. Therefore, I will not spend it while I can work.

I worked in finance for about 10 years and saved a large percentage of my earnings while cutting back on expenses. I then purchased small apartment complexes in blue collar areas that rent roll with reasonable returns to qualified cash tenants or subsidized / low income housing.

The learning curve was building a good team while setting up acquisitions / renovations. That has been the most arduous task I have ever accomplished. There is a balance point that is necessary in order to scale the business accordingly. It is a very fine line that can easily be overlooked. You may encounter great property value but not have the resources to renovate them quickly and enough staff to handle the back end.

Over the last few years I have build a very tough office management and field personnel team. I pay them well to help coordinate repairs , rentals , collections Etc.

If you are a newbie with real estate you must be very careful as this is what I call a standard 5 facet business. If one of these pillars is compromised the whole damn thing will collapse.

5 facets:
Acquisition
Renovation / maintenance
Tenant placement
Collection
Filing tax returns properly

Example 1:
You could be the guy who finds the best deals and have Holmes on homes quality renovations but end up renting to the wrong tenants and not having an aggressive collection team and you will fail.

Example 2:
You are great with paperwork and can harass people to collect money but don't have the construction knowledge to know driveway , electric , plumbing repairs / price points.
You end up getting overcharged on renovation cost and may even get persuaded to buy a home in an area that renters do not like by the typical pushy realtor looking for a commission

Example 3:
Slumlord scenario. Push for money and rent out units that are not in good condition while avoiding maintenance. Then deal with the turnover and garbage tenants that a dilapidated property only seems to attract. Maybe you are a total shit landlord and cover up a bunch of black mold with new dryeall and the tenants then get sick exposing you to lawsuits.

Either way , real estate is not for everyone.
Just like I never touched the stock market. I like the feeling of upside. The feeling of buying an undervalued asset that sold for 3x or 4x what i paid for it several years ago.

I want to build something and see a level of progression. I also prefer a steady drop in the bucket that has the potential to build up into a waterfall versus the one big inconsistent payout.

That is why I am contemplating an early retirement that may only last a couple of months before Boredom and lack of accomplishment despair sets in.


RE: How much is enough? At what passive income level would you stop working? - WestIndianArchie - 01-31-2016 10:24 PM

(01-30-2016 03:09 PM)The Black Knight Wrote:  I much rather be 35 living on 60k/year (or whatever 120k USA equivalent is) surrounded by hot latinas and maybe even starting a family somewhere in South America or doing whatever I want pursuing a purpose vs being 55 but having 3.5 million/year but having lost a lot of younger years to simply chasing money.

Post Of The Day

Agreed with all of the above.

Unless, I was trying to "save the planet", I wouldn't need much more.

....But part of me wants to save the planet.

WIA


RE: How much is enough? At what passive income level would you stop working? - DVY - 01-31-2016 11:47 PM

Never enough because work will make your play more enjoyable.

Hell just got done w a vacation in which my goal was to network at the highest levels, connect ppl and take a slice.

So much fun.

I had vacations in which it was eat, drink, fk, sleep and I got tired of that in a week flat.


RE: How much is enough? At what passive income level would you stop working? - Off The Reservation - 02-01-2016 12:04 AM

(01-31-2016 06:26 PM)captain_shane Wrote:  
(01-31-2016 06:03 PM)offthereservation Wrote:  One million USD per month passive income for me.

[Image: 55MWqhs.png]

regardless of how cheap it is to live somewhere


RE: How much is enough? At what passive income level would you stop working? - captain_shane - 02-01-2016 02:19 AM

(02-01-2016 12:04 AM)offthereservation Wrote:  
(01-31-2016 06:26 PM)captain_shane Wrote:  [quote='offthereservation' pid='1207395' dateline='1454281431']
One million USD per month passive income for me.
regardless of how cheap it is to live somewhere

Yes. You can live like even more of a king in cheap countries.

Thailand, 7.75 million:
[Image: frtkfwwbs8774va8q602cf9jh6i&idcl...amp;w=1600]
4.65 million:
[Image: Property-9df20000000000cf000454166cc4-13628061.jpg]
1.88 million:
[Image: Property-214200000000017900015669510b-24724001.jpg]


RE: How much is enough? At what passive income level would you stop working? - VolandoVengoVolandoVoy - 02-01-2016 02:58 AM

(01-31-2016 10:18 PM)Pyrrhic victory Wrote:  160k/4m

Real estate combined with aggressive savings worked for me. I am in my mid 30s and am at this level Now and am contemplating an early retirement. I live a very simple life and drive a used pickup with minimal expenses. I eat out twice a week , pack my own lunch and don't give a damn about what anyone says or thinks.

The whole reason of getting into real estate was My family Purchased a couple of properties in NYC 30 years ago. I would help them while I was young with cleaning the properties , painting and collecting rent. I took an immediate liking to real estate and memorized the art of the deal by trump at a young age.

The NYC market in mid 90s was shit. And if you were sitting on capital could have purchased properties for 5 to 10 percent of what the market price is now.

The key is to talk to the old timers about the ups and downs of the business cycles they experienced in addition to market research. Talk to people who live and own businesses in the area you are looking to invest. I make it a point to only eat and shop in areas where I'm looking to invest. I talk to the cashiers , janitors To get real time street knowledge. I want to know about families , school performance , police Etc.

Either way, I wanted to make it on my own and went through the 80 - 90 hour work weeks to accomplish it. I don't count my families money as mine as I did not work for it. Therefore, I will not spend it while I can work.

I worked in finance for about 10 years and saved a large percentage of my earnings while cutting back on expenses. I then purchased small apartment complexes in blue collar areas that rent roll with reasonable returns to qualified cash tenants or subsidized / low income housing.

The learning curve was building a good team while setting up acquisitions / renovations. That has been the most arduous task I have ever accomplished. There is a balance point that is necessary in order to scale the business accordingly. It is a very fine line that can easily be overlooked. You may encounter great property value but not have the resources to renovate them quickly and enough staff to handle the back end.

Over the last few years I have build a very tough office management and field personnel team. I pay them well to help coordinate repairs , rentals , collections Etc.

If you are a newbie with real estate you must be very careful as this is what I call a standard 5 facet business. If one of these pillars is compromised the whole damn thing will collapse.

5 facets:
Acquisition
Renovation / maintenance
Tenant placement
Collection
Filing tax returns properly

Example 1:
You could be the guy who finds the best deals and have Holmes on homes quality renovations but end up renting to the wrong tenants and not having an aggressive collection team and you will fail.

Example 2:
You are great with paperwork and can harass people to collect money but don't have the construction knowledge to know driveway , electric , plumbing repairs / price points.
You end up getting overcharged on renovation cost and may even get persuaded to buy a home in an area that renters do not like by the typical pushy realtor looking for a commission

Example 3:
Slumlord scenario. Push for money and rent out units that are not in good condition while avoiding maintenance. Then deal with the turnover and garbage tenants that a dilapidated property only seems to attract. Maybe you are a total shit landlord and cover up a bunch of black mold with new dryeall and the tenants then get sick exposing you to lawsuits.

Either way , real estate is not for everyone.
Just like I never touched the stock market. I like the feeling of upside. The feeling of buying an undervalued asset that sold for 3x or 4x what i paid for it several years ago.

I want to build something and see a level of progression. I also prefer a steady drop in the bucket that has the potential to build up into a waterfall versus the one big inconsistent payout.

That is why I am contemplating an early retirement that may only last a couple of months before Boredom and lack of accomplishment despair sets in.

Fantastic post. +1 from me.

I think you should consider expanding it into a data sheet and making a separate thread.


RE: How much is enough? At what passive income level would you stop working? - VolandoVengoVolandoVoy - 02-01-2016 03:08 AM

(01-31-2016 06:36 PM)Peregrine Wrote:  
Quote:40-50 K is almost baller status for a single male in southern Spain.

Thanks for sharing. I had no idea. I'm assuming it's because of the rampant unemployment? What's stopping financially independent people from moving there and driving up the prices?

Yes, unemployment in southern Spain is about 30% overall and close to 50% for young people.

The population of Andalusia as a whole is over 8 million, Seville has close to a million.

For prices to get driven up you would need a massive influx of foreigners.

There is one place, Marbella, with a population of 200,000 that is very expensive. It is a fashionable destination for Russian mobsters and rich Arabs. It has a Ferrari dealership.

That said, there are a ton of people doing what I do. Lots of expats living in Seville.


RE: How much is enough? At what passive income level would you stop working? - VolandoVengoVolandoVoy - 02-01-2016 03:59 AM

I just want to thank all of the thoughtful posters who have been contributing to this thread.

The reason I started it is because I am in a phase right now where I am trying to figure out which path to take.

I always knew that at some point I would inherit. I just didn't think it would be until I was much older, in my 50s or 60s. That changed last year - when my Grandmother passed away most of the family wealth went to my mother, but a substantial generation skipping trust fund that benefits me and my siblings became active. I knew nothing of this until a letter came in the mail one day.

The last time I actually wanted to do something in terms of career, was when I was 17 and wanted to go to Annapolis and become a naval aviator as that had the highest % chance of becoming an astronaut. Unfortunately I did not have 20/20 vision so that was impossible. At the time there was no LASIK waiver, and being a helicopter pilot or sub or surface officer didn't interest me.

Since then, with one exception, my choices were based on prestige. Go to the best university and graduate school, get the best job. I worked in finance in NYC, as a manager in a large industrial supply company on the west coast, and then in real estate development in NYC. The only thing in common that these jobs had, besides high pay, was that I thoroughly hated them. I hated being told what to do and having to be places at a certain time, often with people I didn't like, all to make someone else a little bit richer. My job and life dissatisfaction almost killed me on multiple occasions, it was a big factor behind repeated problems I had throughout my 20s and early 30s with severe alcoholism/drug addiction and clinical depression. I'm now almost 2 years sober and medication free (besides Antabuse), and at 35 I'd like to think that shit will never happen again.

The exception to my quest for prestige was a journey I did right after college back in 2001. I bought a rusty 1988 Toyota 4Runner, left it looking like crap on the outside for security reasons, made it nice and new mechanically on the inside, and drove it from the USA to Tierra del Fuego, and then sold it in Paraguay. 8 months and 25,000 miles. I definitely felt alive then, and took insane risks all throughout the journey.

Fast forward to today, and I find myself at a crossroads. The answer for me is not work, at least not in the traditional sense. I really did hate all the jobs I had.

Over the past few months, I've started to put together a lifestyle that may or may not be enough. I'm focusing a lot on self improvement, and taking things a day at a time.

One of my thoughts in moving back to Spain was that getting back together with a Spanish ex girlfriend of mine and starting a family would be a major part of my new life. She is beautiful, loyal, a traditional "good girl" from a small village, and would make an excellent mother. But all that glitters is not gold. Her libido is lower than mine, and unless I complain, she is fine with sex being a once or twice a week thing. She is also not a risk taker or adrenaline junky (when I recently bought us passes to go skydiving, she looked at me like I was suggesting a visit to the dentist, and told me that life is already dangerous enough, no need to go looking for trouble). Lastly, I've got very mixed feelings on whether or not I want to start a family right now. While I'm 35, and can easily put it off for 5 or 6 years or more, she is 36, and biology is biology.

So, that's my situation. I rambled a bit, but maybe someone out there will have some insight, RVF is an amazing community.


RE: How much is enough? At what passive income level would you stop working? - pitt - 02-01-2016 05:45 AM

I am not trying to knock on you but why would you plan to start a family with a woman who is older than you (36), when you are a high value guy and you could easily start a family with a woman who is in her early 20's. I doubt traditional women in Sevilla is something rare.

I have had sex with lots of older women (I am 29) but I have never considered starting a family with a woman who is older than me.

Remember that the older they get, they become better at playing the game of artifice and dissimulation. What makes you think that she was not a hoe in her earlier days? Maybe she was not, I am sure you know it better than me.

I also don't like the fact that she is not too sexual, if she is already like that, be sure that the older she gets, the more prude she will be. I have a very high libido and I could not date a woman for too long who has very low libido. My new girl was sick the whole weekend and we were still fucking like crazy. If she can't match my sexual needs, I am out.


Just one more thing, do you think having all this money made you happier comparing to when you had less? Is the difference that obvious in terms of your personal happiness?

Thanks for sharing your experiences.


RE: How much is enough? At what passive income level would you stop working? - DrugAdvisor - 02-01-2016 07:44 AM

80K passive a year is a good safety net to shoot for.

Since I live in SEA anyways, it will also enable me to invest in small businesses. Probably provide some consulting on the side in my own field.

it will still be work, but the kind that pays you in reputation rather than dollars.


RE: How much is enough? At what passive income level would you stop working? - VolandoVengoVolandoVoy - 02-01-2016 07:59 AM

(02-01-2016 05:45 AM)pitt Wrote:  I am not trying to knock on you but why would you plan to start a family with a woman who is older than you (36), when you are a high value guy and you could easily start a family with a woman who is in her early 20's. I doubt traditional women in Sevilla is something rare.

I have had sex with lots of older women (I am 29) but I have never considered starting a family with a woman who is older than me.

Remember that the older they get, they become better at playing the game of artifice and dissimulation. What makes you think that she was not a hoe in her earlier days? Maybe she was not, I am sure you know it better than me.

I also don't like the fact that she is not too sexual, if she is already like that, be sure that the older she gets, the more prude she will be. I have a very high libido and I could not date a woman for too long who has very low libido. My new girl was sick the whole weekend and we were still fucking like crazy. If she can't match my sexual needs, I am out.


Just one more thing, do you think having all this money made you happier comparing to when you had less? Is the difference that obvious in terms of your personal happiness?

Thanks for sharing your experiences.

I think more or less the same as you.

The reason I have broken the rules with this girl is that we met 15 years ago when I was 20 studying abroad in Spain and she was only 21. She was also a virgin when we met. We had an intense young love that I have never felt again. I'm sure to a certain extent I'm just like a heroin addict trying to get that first high again, chasing the dragon, wanting to feel young and high and free.

Several times we have gotten back together and broken up again.

So there is a lot of history there. I also trust her, which is a rare thing for me.

She is so sweet, and her family is so nice to me, that I'm very tempted to just ignore the problems and try to make them a little bit better and just largely settle for the way things are and enjoy the positives.

But here I am, writing this.

As for the money, in my case - yes, absolutely. There is a definite increase in my happiness knowing that no one else can ever tell me what to do ever again. In the past I also had some nice things and good apartments, but rarely got to enjoy them. Now my time belongs to me, nobody else.

Now, that may not be the case for everyone. I know some well off people who are miserable fucks. But that's probably a personal failing/characteristic.

Money helps with a lot of things, and makes some parts of life easier. It gives you options. But it is not a magic answer to life, the earth, and everything.


RE: How much is enough? At what passive income level would you stop working? - The Black Knight - 02-01-2016 11:47 AM

(01-31-2016 10:24 PM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  
(01-30-2016 03:09 PM)The Black Knight Wrote:  I much rather be 35 living on 60k/year (or whatever 120k USA equivalent is) surrounded by hot latinas and maybe even starting a family somewhere in South America or doing whatever I want pursuing a purpose vs being 55 but having 3.5 million/year but having lost a lot of younger years to simply chasing money.

Post Of The Day

Agreed with all of the above.

Unless, I was trying to "save the planet", I wouldn't need much more.

....But part of me wants to save the planet.

WIA

I hear ya on the "save the planet" bit. I have always had the thought in the back of my mind of pulling a Trump before Trump did it (i.e. run for office with so much money no one could fuck with me).

Anyhow...getting the Post of the Day badge from a great RVF contributor such as yourself? Time to celebrate!

[Image: ZVrKsFGdr3K9y.gif]


RE: How much is enough? At what passive income level would you stop working? - DVY - 02-01-2016 01:14 PM

Do what you want and be happy BUT realize that the past is the past. You can't relive the past.

Id recommend you take a vacation alone and take stock of your life. 2-3 weeks away will give you perspective

Is this really the course of action you would like...

Go with eyes open and then make your decision away from the heat of the moment.


RE: How much is enough? At what passive income level would you stop working? - Ibagemyoutagem - 02-01-2016 02:27 PM

I believe 10,000,000 which equates to 500k a year or 20k a month after taxes basically would be enough to live out my dreams. It would be traveling between Cambodia, japan, and Australia. Each with a home in the capital . This all while doing my dream of drifting in the mountains of japan and raising a family. Right now in the process to start a small business in Cambodia just to get some experience, and starting learning to read, speak, write Japanese. I look forward to the big adventure though business to make 10 mil .


RE: How much is enough? At what passive income level would you stop working? - booshala - 02-01-2016 11:41 PM

Great thread, been thinking about this a lot as I'm doing the lifestyle construction right now to early retire. For me, I'm planning on getting it around $50k annually, but really trying to make most of that money in my pocket using some advance tax planning and stratagems.


RE: How much is enough? At what passive income level would you stop working? - TheFinalEpic - 02-02-2016 12:01 AM

25k per day, which I truly think is possible via Internet business and a combination of investment vehicles.


RE: How much is enough? At what passive income level would you stop working? - captain_shane - 02-02-2016 12:46 AM

(02-02-2016 12:01 AM)TheFinalEpic Wrote:  25k per day, which I truly think is possible via Internet business and a combination of investment vehicles.

Lets get a data sheet on internet businesses brotha.


RE: How much is enough? At what passive income level would you stop working? - TheFinalEpic - 02-02-2016 12:58 AM

(02-02-2016 12:46 AM)captain_shane Wrote:  
(02-02-2016 12:01 AM)TheFinalEpic Wrote:  25k per day, which I truly think is possible via Internet business and a combination of investment vehicles.

Lets get a data sheet on internet businesses brotha.

PM me, I could definitely write a dedicated thread about building online businesses but there are better resources that I've come across in regards to marketing, SEO and generating traffic, design, and niche selection.


RE: How much is enough? At what passive income level would you stop working? - Rush87 - 02-02-2016 02:33 AM

I would never stop working - But I would prioritise a very loose, very relaxed schedule if I had around 3 million. I.E: Enough to invest in multiple properties and survive off the rental.


RE: How much is enough? At what passive income level would you stop working? - VolandoVengoVolandoVoy - 02-02-2016 08:20 AM

(02-02-2016 12:01 AM)TheFinalEpic Wrote:  25k per day, which I truly think is possible via Internet business and a combination of investment vehicles.

25K per day? What's your lifestyle? Live in a top notch hotel suite in Paris/London/NYC? Eat steaks of critically endangered species for lunch? Travel by helicopter and private jet?


RE: How much is enough? At what passive income level would you stop working? - DVY - 02-02-2016 11:35 AM

My personal goal is 1MM/year semi-passive (phone calls, managing investments, connecting ppl and getting commish).

Nowhere close to this but I know that 100k/year passive is more than enough to survive almost anywhere.

Still aways from even this goal but it will come.

Part of the fun is not seeing the bank account $, its enjoying the hunt of making more $....just like part of the fun of swooping girls is the hunt.

Everybody is different but that is my current viewpoint on it.