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The Richard Spencer and alt-right thread - Roosh - 11-23-2016 02:17 PM

So it looks like the alt right and "alt light" are divorcing for good.

Alt right leader Richard Spencer had some controversy at his latest conference:





Mike Cernovich called him controlled opposition and got a lot of hate from the alt right because of it:

http://www.dangerandplay.com/2016/11/21/this-is-what-controlled-opposition-looks-like/

Paul Joseph Watson, Stephen Molyneux, Vox Day made statements on Twitter to support Mike's call:

https://twitter.com/PrisonPlanet/status/801179724768825345
https://twitter.com/PrisonPlanet/status/801230742164557824
https://twitter.com/StefanMolyneux/status/801163773075722240

I understand both points of view:

https://www.periscope.tv/rooshv/1zqKVNlXdPaKB

The fallout from this seems to be a new "alt light" because the new conservatism and then the alt right focusing on the white ethnostate.


RE: Schism in the alt right - Vicious - 11-23-2016 02:31 PM

In every subculture, from organized religion to Norwegian Black Metal there will be factions fighting over who is most "true". They will consume enormous resources battling each other and do damage accordingly unlike anything their real opposition could ever amount to accomplishing m


RE: Schism in the alt right - rotekz - 11-23-2016 02:39 PM

Vox was not entirely in agreement with Mike. http://voxday.blogspot.co.uk/2016/11/controlled-opposition-or-media.html

[Image: 2TYBYbI.jpg]


RE: Schism in the alt right - Truth Teller - 11-23-2016 02:44 PM

A schism was fairly inevitable. The alt-right is comprised of a lot of normal folks who've been marginalized by the Obama administration and feel as though their country couldn't care less. For example, white working class men. These groups are going to form a new type of conservatism focusing on protectionism, American nationalism (not white nationalism), etc.

Other parts of the alt-right are comprised of white nationalists, anti-Semites, and outright racists. That is, fringe groups and people whom political parties don't want to be associated with. The media unduly focuses on the more unsavory side of the alt-right while ignoring that a huge number of the alt-right couldn't give less of a fuck about white nationalism or anti-Semitism.


RE: Schism in the alt right - I DIDN'T KILL MY WIFE - 11-23-2016 02:48 PM

What the alt-light can't quite grasp is that demography is destiny. It really doesn't matter if you invite the best crop, the creme de la creme, the upstanding, the good willed, the intelligent, the law abiding into your country... if you invite too many, you'll eventually be replacing yourself. It's not hating others, it's about loving and preserving your own people. Of course many on the alt-right go completely overboard LARPing about the Third Reich etc. but the main point on which all other considerations should be based is about preserving your people.

The ironic thing is that the alt-right people would be just as vocal and fight just as hard to keep Africa for Africans, Japan for the Japanese and oppose colonialism. It's about providing a homeland for EVERY people. Demography is destiny, it's simple statistics. Over a long enough timeline, if you don't focus on preserving yourself, you're commiting suicide. Slow, mellow, passive, quiet and very painless... but still suicide.


RE: Schism in the alt right - Comte De St. Germain - 11-23-2016 02:58 PM

(11-23-2016 02:48 PM)I DIDNT KILL MY WIFE Wrote:  What the alt-light can't quite grasp is that demography is destiny. It really doesn't matter if you invite the best crop, the creme de la creme, the upstanding, the good willed, the intelligent, the law abiding into your country... if you invite to many, you'll eventually be replacing yourself. It's not hating others, it's about loving your preserving your own people. Of course many on the alt-right go completely overboard LARPing about the Third Reich etc. but the main point on which all other considerations should be based it about preserving your people.

The ironic thing is that the alt-right people would be just as vocal and fight just as hard to keep Africa for Africans, Japan for the Japanese and oppose colonianism. It's about providing a homeland for EVERY people. Demography is destiny, it's simple statistics. Over a long enough timeline, if you don't focus on preserving yourself, you're commiting suicide. Slow, mellow, passive, quiet and very painless... but still suicide.

With Europe this mentality works fine, but if you want to try to deport every non-white person from the U.S. . I dare you to try and see what happens, and if we are truly going by that logic those Natives holed up in the reservation should atleast get a nice chunk if not all of a good portion of the U.S.


The United States has already been compromised if you want an entire white nation. Your best hope is racemixing until a Latin American type hybrid comes about.

And if all works out you have a nice little homeland on another continent as it is.


RE: Schism in the alt right - I DIDN'T KILL MY WIFE - 11-23-2016 03:05 PM

(11-23-2016 02:58 PM)Comte De St. Germain Wrote:  
(11-23-2016 02:48 PM)I DIDNT KILL MY WIFE Wrote:  What the alt-light can't quite grasp is that demography is destiny. It really doesn't matter if you invite the best crop, the creme de la creme, the upstanding, the good willed, the intelligent, the law abiding into your country... if you invite to many, you'll eventually be replacing yourself. It's not hating others, it's about loving your preserving your own people. Of course many on the alt-right go completely overboard LARPing about the Third Reich etc. but the main point on which all other considerations should be based it about preserving your people.

The ironic thing is that the alt-right people would be just as vocal and fight just as hard to keep Africa for Africans, Japan for the Japanese and oppose colonianism. It's about providing a homeland for EVERY people. Demography is destiny, it's simple statistics. Over a long enough timeline, if you don't focus on preserving yourself, you're commiting suicide. Slow, mellow, passive, quiet and very painless... but still suicide.

With Europe this mentality works fine, but if you want to try to deport every non-white person from the U.S. . I dare you to try and see what happens, and if we are truly going by that logic those Natives holed up in the reservation should atleast get a nice chunk if not all of a good portion of the U.S.


The United States has already been compromised if you want an entire white nation. Your best hope is racemixing until a Latin American type hybrid comes about.

And if all works out you have a nice little homeland on another continent as it is.

America is for better or for worse how it is, no one is saying anything about deporting every single non-white. As I said, some Hitler LARPers have this pipe dream, keep on dreaming but it's ridiculous. What America was however is it had certain demographics that allowed it to function. Nowadays demographics are shifting in the wrong direction, birth rates are dropping in the middle class because of the whole YOU GO GURRRL feminism brainwashing into working fertile women into a dried out husk while the jobless lower classes breed like rabbits. What is needed right now is to equalize the demographics and things might have a chance of righting themselves all on their on. But first the politicians and the people have to actually get the realization in what directions things are moving and how things are changing to stop the decline. Gotta consciously realize and acknowledge the problem before you can tackle it.

The best example of demographic decline is Detroit.


RE: Schism in the alt right - Samseau - 11-23-2016 03:06 PM

I'd say these racists make up 1/10 of actual alt-righters.

Their entire worldview is premised on the idea of racial purity, which is actually a Talmudic idea Hitler copied for his own political ends.

These people claim to hate Jews yet copy them like tools.

It looks like I'll need to create The Master Race Thread sooner than I thought. All supremacy movements are intellectually bankrupt, especially White nationalism. The empirical and historical evidence is stacked against them.

I'm going to pull apart their racial purity premises and watch the whole thing fall apart this year. They had a fun ride but now it's time to unbrainwash them.


RE: Schism in the alt right - Fast Eddie - 11-23-2016 03:11 PM

(11-23-2016 02:44 PM)Truth Teller Wrote:  A schism was fairly inevitable. The alt-right is comprised of a lot of normal folks who've been marginalized by the Obama administration and feel as though their country couldn't care less. For example, white working class men. These groups are going to form a new type of conservatism focusing on protectionism, American nationalism (not white nationalism), etc.

Other parts of the alt-right are comprised of white nationalists, anti-Semites, and outright racists. That is, fringe groups and people whom political parties don't want to be associated with. The media unduly focuses on the more unsavory side of the alt-right while ignoring that a huge number of the alt-right couldn't give less of a fuck about white nationalism or anti-Semitism.

The question is can the "more savory" faction with its focus on ideology survive in face of the demographic calamity that awaits it in the long run? I don't like the term "white nationalist" because of the unsavory connotations it conjures, but like it or not, white people need to up their identity politics game and with a quickness.

Your beloved "new conservatism" will last only as long as there are enough people voting for it. To put it bluntly, it will last only as long as white people retain their electoral majority, because every other racial group votes along "black nationalist" and "Asian nationalist" and "latino nationalist" lines and couldn't give less of a fuck about ideology. They (rightly) view politics in a multicultural society in a purely tribal manner as a competition for territory/power between rival groups.

So if you're white and you enjoy a certain conservative ideology, it behooves you to start thinking along "white nationalist" lines even if the idea of "white nationalism" is abhorrent to you. The reason for it is simple: in order to safeguard the future of your conservative ideology, you need to safeguard the future of the only group of people who will be voting for it, white people. You may want to hold your nose shut with disgust while you're doing it, but the "Prime Directive" of the Alt Right has to be attacking the demographic situation, either via preserving the white majority in current nation states or carving new nation states from existing ones, because only nations with white majorities will be run under the conservatism that you like.

The moment your faction loses its political power as a result of no longer being the majority, your political system will change from "Alt Light" to "Gimmedat!" as your new masters implement their favorite ideology: taking your shit cause they can!


RE: Schism in the alt right - Silver_Tube - 11-23-2016 03:15 PM

I was so out of the loop with this, I was wondering why people were splitting into factions about the danger and play guy. Thanks for doing a summary.

I still have a couple more questions if anyone could clear them up:
Are we forum members, masculinity enthusiasts, traditionalists, etc part of the 'alt-right'?
I feel like that was put on us by the Hillary campaign to paint us as racists. I'd consider myself more a white survivalist than a white supremacist, was this alt right stuff coined recently or was it a pre-existing movement?

How did Mike get from dangerandplay's game and lifestyle advice to being a nationwide politics celebrity? What happened there? I think it's really cool but it feels like it happened overnight.


RE: Schism in the alt right - I DIDN'T KILL MY WIFE - 11-23-2016 03:19 PM

(11-23-2016 03:15 PM)Silver_Tube Wrote:  I was so out of the loop with this, I was wondering why people were splitting into factions about the danger and play guy. Thanks for doing a summary.

I still have a couple more questions if anyone could clear them up:
Are we forum members, masculinity enthusiasts, traditionalists, etc part of the 'alt-right'?
I feel like that was put on us by the Hillary campaign to paint us as racists. I'd consider myself more a white survivalist than a white supremacist, was this alt right stuff coined recently or was it a pre-existing movement?

How did Mike get from dangerandplay's game and lifestyle advice to being a nationwide politics celebrity? What happened there? I think it's really cool but it feels like it happened overnight.

Not overnight but during the election. The Alt-Right existed before the election, but before that they had no big platform to present their views, it was too easy for the usual suspects and the media to handwave away any legitimate concerns and arguments with a "lol you're a nazi lmao" dismissive gesture. The election galvanized people for the first time not just along party lines but along their identities, gave a platform for the Alt-Right to present themselves and so some people realized "hey wait I have some more identities" ... which of course the elites detested because as a I said, the first step before you can take action is to consciously REALIZE something, notice something. And the usual (((experts))) are very much afraid of you stopping and noticing things


RE: Schism in the alt right - Il Bersagliere - 11-23-2016 03:19 PM

I hope they realize that Trump is basically a Jew. Are they trolling?


RE: Schism in the alt right - 262 - 11-23-2016 03:26 PM

^ That reminds me that Ivanka converted to Modern Orthodox Judaism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivanka_Trump


RE: Schism in the alt right - Truth Teller - 11-23-2016 03:31 PM

(11-23-2016 03:06 PM)Samseau Wrote:  I'd say these racists make up 1/10 of actual alt-righters.

Their entire worldview is premised on the idea of racial purity, which is actually a Talmudic idea Hitler copied for his own political ends.

These people claim to hate Jews yet copy them like tools.

I seriously question how well versed you actually are in the Talmud.

The idea of "race" is an Enlightenment idea.


RE: Schism in the alt right - Slim Shady - 11-23-2016 03:34 PM

I don't like "Alt-Lite". The only "lite" I want to be associated with is Keystone Light.

I prefer "Alt-West", or "New Right".

The following are some stream of consciousness thoughts. Being non-white, and an immigrant naturalized citizen of the US, I may just be rationalizing to preserve my own self interest.

The "Alt-White" is flawed when it comes to their vision for the USA, but not necessarily when it comes to Europe.

It is correct to try to keep the USA culturally homogeneous (or at 80/90%) but not ethnically so. In Europe the ethnic philosophy makes more sense because that is the traditional homeland of the "White People".

Yes, it is true that the Europeans conquered America - there was a fight and the natives lost. However, even though the USA may have been built by white people, and you can say it was built to be for white people, that's not what the Constitution says. Even many centuries ago non-whites were made into Christians and "civilized" to be then accepted into society, because culturally they assimilated. If you are comprehensively against invaders, and for returning lands to their native people, then white people should also leave the USA. If you are against ethnic invaders in Europe, you should go back to Europe too. You can't have it both ways. (You are allowed to be against muslim invaders, however, because that is cultural and ideological exclusion, not race based).

You are even allowed to be against "race mixing" without being a hypocrite. Conservative Indian families are extremely protective of "race mixing". I know my own family is. (Personally I don't care, evidenced by the fact that I'm a member of this forum - but my family doesn't know my views.)

Now you can have the argument that non-white people can never be "civilized" or assimilate - 'Race Realist' argument. Well, then all you still have to do is have a cultural barrier for membership into the USA and only the "right" races will be included. If "unwanted" races end up entering through this barrier, then your base premise was wrong to begin with.

Anyway, it seems very clear to me that Spencer either committed a huge error (didn't recognize the bait as he was suddenly taken off the media blackout list) or is indeed colluding. The problem is that any kind of extreme race based identity politics in the USA comes off as insecure and doesn't maximize your economic utility functions to begin with - it simply isn't logical. Culture/ideology based identity politics doesn't necessarily have this deficiency. Allowing weak minded and insecure individuals to be part of your movement will ensure that your movement fails. Diversity+Proximity = War is more true with culture today than it is with race. A white Islamist, a white Christian, and a white feminist are more likely to fight, and have fewer things in common, than me (brown), a black forum member, and a white forum member.

So bigger picture, this hurts us a bit short term since the media and regular anti Trump people are saying "see this is exactly what we feared, Trump is a Nazi". But long term, who cares. They have been calling us all Nazis for a while now. Trump is going to be a great President, and the Nazi Tourette's is all they will have.

Ofcourse, this opens the door for false flags, or actual hate crimes by one or two dumbcunts. If you are dumb enough to do Seig Heil's in front of the media, you may be dumb enough to be baited into an actual crime. Remember that college students can already be expelled and get into serious trouble for doing this stuff. Something like that would be a bigger problem. I was surprised a few days ago - surprised for the first time by something in a very long time - by how many 1488 types there were in the Alt Right. Mike received more hate for that Periscope than he did from the Hillary people during the worst of the campaign. These people have fucking turned on Ramzpaul!


RE: Schism in the alt right - Enigma - 11-23-2016 03:43 PM

(11-23-2016 02:48 PM)I DIDNT KILL MY WIFE Wrote:  What the alt-light can't quite grasp is that demography is destiny. It really doesn't matter if you invite the best crop, the creme de la creme, the upstanding, the good willed, the intelligent, the law abiding into your country... if you invite too many, you'll eventually be replacing yourself. It's not hating others, it's about loving and preserving your own people. Of course many on the alt-right go completely overboard LARPing about the Third Reich etc. but the main point on which all other considerations should be based is about preserving your people.

The ironic thing is that the alt-right people would be just as vocal and fight just as hard to keep Africa for Africans, Japan for the Japanese and oppose colonialism. It's about providing a homeland for EVERY people. Demography is destiny, it's simple statistics. Over a long enough timeline, if you don't focus on preserving yourself, you're commiting suicide. Slow, mellow, passive, quiet and very painless... but still suicide.

Except Vox Day blogs about demographics on a daily basis, Mike Cernovich dedicated an entire section of his new book to denouncing the concept of "white guilt", and Stefan Molyneux has created hours of video explaining the demographic problems.

The ironic thing is that one of Cernovich's last big Twitter controversies was calling Reagan a shit president for passing amnesty laws in California.

What the alt-right can't grasp is reality.

They campaigned for a man with Jewish children and grandchildren yet hate Jews and attack Cernovich (whose middle name is Christian) because they think he's a subversive Jew.

They call for a white ethnostate in a country that hasn't even managed to stop illegal immigration.

They can't even come out from behind their anonymous Pepe avatars but think we're anywhere close to the pie-in-the-sky ideas that they won't shut up about.


RE: Schism in the alt right - Slim Shady - 11-23-2016 03:46 PM

The second thing is that a lot of these guys are completely blue pilled when it comes to women, and gender dynamics. Game saves lives, and having bad game only leads to frustration and insecurity - which leads to more poorly thought out ideas.

Blaming everything on other races and not indulging in self improvement...sounds like SJWs/BLM to me.


RE: Schism in the alt right - Going strong - 11-23-2016 03:46 PM

(11-23-2016 03:34 PM)Slim Shady Wrote:  I don't like "Alt-Lite". The only "lite" I want to be associated with is Keystone Light.

I prefer "Alt-West", or "New Right".

The French have coined the term "Strong Right" or "Popular Right" (or, People's Right - Droite Populaire), for the traditional, Conservative (but not quite ultra-nationalist) Right.
Myself I think the terminology Strong Right (as opposed to cucked Right, weak Right) is quite perfect (better than Alt-Right), we should use it. Or, Masculine Right, for, specifically, the RVF? Yes, I think maybe Roosh should now present himself as the leader of the Masculine Right!


RE: Schism in the alt right - Truth Teller - 11-23-2016 03:56 PM

(11-23-2016 03:46 PM)Slim Shady Wrote:  Blaming everything on other races and not indulging in self improvement...sounds like SJWs/BLM to me.

I completely agree. This has been my criticism of the "manosphere" for years. If you don't actually improve yourself, how do you expect to have the best job, the most attractive women, etc.?

You're not a fucking victim. I wish more men would take that idea to heart.


RE: Schism in the alt right - I DIDN'T KILL MY WIFE - 11-23-2016 04:04 PM

"Just improve yourself bro!" must be the most tired catch-all argument on RVF and manosphere forums. Self-improvement is great and all should strive for it, but there's a limit what you can achieve just by self-improvement alone, gotta also have a stable and sane society. Try to self-improve yourself back into your IT job when your company lays you off to hire a H1B Indian who does it for 50% of your wage. Supporting yourself by writing e-books and living on the cheap in Ukraine is nice, but a country can't function on self-help inspirational books alone, you need your average blue collar factory worker and farmers


RE: Schism in the alt right - Slim Shady - 11-23-2016 04:16 PM

What is the relationship between blue collar workers and farmers, and H1Bs?

(11-23-2016 04:04 PM)I DIDNT KILL MY WIFE Wrote:  "Just improve yourself bro!" must be the most tired catch-all argument on RVF and manosphere forums. Self-improvement is great and all should strive for it, but there's a limit what you can achieve just by self-improvement alone, gotta also have a stable and sane society. Try to self-improve yourself back into your IT job when your company lays you off to hire a H1B Indian who does it for 50% of your wage. Supporting yourself by writing e-books and living on the cheap in Ukraine is nice, but a country can't function on self-help inspirational books alone, you need your average blue collar factory worker and farmers



RE: Schism in the alt right - Rhyme or Reason - 11-23-2016 04:18 PM

If these guy's wanna get together and LARP for the cameras, I could not give a shit less. Was it smart? Probably not.

Are they going to "damage our movement"? That's assuming there's a cohesive movement which there is not. As has been pointed out before on RVF and elsewhere the "Alt right" and it's associated ideologies do not represent a singular worldview. A schism was inevitable and already actually happened before the election.

Don't forget the alt right (big umbrella) triggered the left into submission via meme's and humor. So let's not take them too seriously.

I just don't have time to worry about what a collective of LARPing dorks are up to.


RE: Schism in the alt right - I DIDN'T KILL MY WIFE - 11-23-2016 04:20 PM

(11-23-2016 04:16 PM)Slim Shady Wrote:  What is the relationship between blue collar workers and farmers, and H1Bs?

(11-23-2016 04:04 PM)I DIDNT KILL MY WIFE Wrote:  "Just improve yourself bro!" must be the most tired catch-all argument on RVF and manosphere forums. Self-improvement is great and all should strive for it, but there's a limit what you can achieve just by self-improvement alone, gotta also have a stable and sane society. Try to self-improve yourself back into your IT job when your company lays you off to hire a H1B Indian who does it for 50% of your wage. Supporting yourself by writing e-books and living on the cheap in Ukraine is nice, but a country can't function on self-help inspirational books alone, you need your average blue collar factory worker and farmers

With H1B? Not a big one. With hordes of illegals coming in and globalists outsourcing industry? A big one.

My point wasn't about H1B and blue collars workers but that "Just bright light therapy and game yourself into a stable job" has its limits and living the Roosh/Cernovich lifestyle is not for everyone, not even desirable for everyone.


RE: Schism in the alt right - Enigma - 11-23-2016 04:23 PM

(11-23-2016 03:34 PM)Slim Shady Wrote:  Now you can have the argument that non-white people can never be "civilized" or assimilate - 'Race Realist' argument. Well, then all you still have to do is have a cultural barrier for membership into the USA and only the "right" races will be included. If "unwanted" races end up entering through this barrier, then your base premise was wrong to begin with.

The problem is that Europeans and non-Europeans tend to vote for different types of government, whether it's in America, Europe, Japan, or Argentina. You also see social breakdown when there's no clear ethnic majority. This isn't a recent occurrence, it goes back thousands of years.

It has nothing to do with one race being superior or inferior to the other.

The main difference between the "Alt-Light" and "Alt-Right" is, as far as I can tell, that the former wants the US to stay majority white, but isn't opposed to minority groups living here in reasonable numbers. Whereas someone like Richard Spencer thinks we should create an all-white ethnostate in the Northwest, where no non-whites or Jews are allowed.


RE: Schism in the alt right - Slim Shady - 11-23-2016 04:28 PM

Quote:With H1B? Not a big one. With hordes of illegals coming in and globalists outsourcing industry? A big one.

My point wasn't about H1B and blue collars workers but that "Just bright light therapy and game yourself into a stable job" has its limits and living the Roosh/Cernovich lifestyle is not for everyone, not even desirable for everyone.

I think everyone here is against hoards of illegals coming into the country and globalists outsourcing jobs en masse. That's not exclusively an "alt right" or "alt white" idea.

You have to realize that USCIS is completely fucked. There is a huge problem with quotas on different countries, mismanagement, etc. - Trump needs to clean up USCIS bigly!

You have people taking those very blue collar and farming jobs coming in en masse very easily, while skilled people from countries that would better assimilate have a very difficult time getting into the country, or becoming citizens. An engineer from China or India has a harder time getting a Green Card than a Mexican unskilled laborer.

If you are worried about economics and jobs (which again, I think everyone on here is) then you have to be against people coming into the country from Russia, Poland, Germany, and England as well.

From an Economics standpoint, you can not discriminate between the two (Europeans and non-European immigration).

If you want to discriminate on a cultural assimilation basis, then you can't discriminate against the Japanese/Indians/Chinese and Europeans.

If you want to discriminate based on race alone, then we can have a conversation. I have already laid out my argument for that a few posts above.

(11-23-2016 04:23 PM)Enigma Wrote:  The problem is that Europeans and non-Europeans tend to vote for different types of government, whether it's in America, Europe, Japan, or Argentina. You also see social breakdown when there's no clear ethnic majority. This isn't a recent occurrence, it goes back thousands of years.

It has nothing to do with one race being superior or inferior to the other.

The main difference between the "Alt-Light" and "Alt-Right" is, as far as I can tell, that the former wants the US to stay majority white, but isn't opposed to minority groups living here in reasonable numbers. Whereas someone like Richard Spencer thinks we should create an all-white ethnostate in the Northwest, where no non-whites or Jews are allowed.

I have no problem having the USA be a majority White nation. I think this will be a natural consequence of "Alt-West" or "New Right" principles. Curbing illegal immigration, and controlling and better managing immigration from other countries than it is currently done will keep the USA at a white majority.

More importantly however, winning the culture war will ensure that we have a "pro Conservative" or "pro American" majority in the USA, and within the immigrant population. That is more important in my opinion.