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The Bitcoin (BTC) thread
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CaptainChardonnay Away
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Post: #2626
RE: The Bitcoin thread
I have a question for all you bitcoin experts on the forum. I got into a discussion with a friend of mine who argued against bitcoin.

My question is, how do people buy products using bitcoin if the prices are always changing. For example I know you use to be able to buy drugs off silk road. So if you were to buy a gram which is $10 where I am, how would the seller on silk road set the price to reflect $10 and how would you know what the bitcoin price was set at?

Another example would be roosh's books. I know he plans on selling his books for bitcoin, how would he set the price if the value of a bitcoin is always changing

The argument he gave was that, if Walmart were to start accepting bitcoin, they would be doing it as a gimmick that benefits them. Say they price things and you go to checkout and it is priced to reflect the value of an actual good. So if you got a widget and it cost $10, Walmart would spot the bitcoin price at its equivalent value in USD but then add their own fee of converting the bitcoin to USD. He says Walmart would never hold bitcoin as it is a volatile currency and that means they would never be able to record a bitcoin value on their books.

Essentially he argues that with credit and debit cards, the merchant pays the fee per transaction but with bitcoin it would be the consumer.

I've tried to google the answer but haven't found something good yet. Best info has been from here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comment...ging_then/

Quote:everything is valued in the local fiat and converted to bitcoin at the point of sale.

How does that work if the value of a bitcoin jumps from say $10 to $1000 within the span of a day continuously as it was when I first saw this thread.

It seems like if you want to buy a widget that was say $100USD you could buy 10 BTC and then wait for its equivalent value to go up until it hits the equivalent value of $100USD and then buy the widget

Another comment
Quote:The same way you set a price in Dollars, Euros, Pesos or any other currency.
Nearly every time you buy something you pay a different price. Consider gasoline, eggs or milk.
If you don't pay the same price in your local currency for basic items like gas, eggs and milk, then the value of your local currency is continuously changing too.
You've come to believe that your currency is stable, and that price of everything else changes. This not not true!
Have you ever heard an old person describe how inexpensive things used to be? Did the value of those things go up, or did the value of the currency go down?
Considering this question is the Matrix-equivalent of taking the red pill. You will probably never consider fiat currency in the same way again...

This is true that prices change but a carton of eggs isn't jumping for 50 cents to 100 dollars in the US, it sticks at say 5 dollars. So if i wanted to buy a carton of eggs with bitcoin am i suppose to go to the store and then wait for the price to jump around until it hits 5 equivalent us dollars and then buy the product?
04-28-2016 01:02 AM
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JayJuanGee Offline
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Post: #2627
RE: The Bitcoin thread
You raise a few decent points, and others can chime in here too, hopefully, to the extent that they may have their own experiences using bitcoin.

(04-28-2016 01:02 AM)CaptainChardonnay Wrote:  I have a question for all you bitcoin experts on the forum. I got into a discussion with a friend of mine who argued against bitcoin.

There is a lot of misinformation and generalizing... and surely, the bitcoin space continues to evolve too, so there are applications and services that may vary in terms of fees or options for either the consumer or merchant.

I doubt that we should be attempting to make an argument for or against bitcoin based on a variety of user-friendly complications or even confusion within generalizations.. each of us should be able to consider ways in which we may want to use bitcoin.. I don't personally use bitcoin very much in terms of making small purchases, and if I do use it for some kind of a purchase, I replace whatever i use (at least these days, I am attempting to maintain and accumulate bitcoins).

(04-28-2016 01:02 AM)CaptainChardonnay Wrote:  My question is, how do people buy products using bitcoin if the prices are always changing. For example I know you use to be able to buy drugs off silk road. So if you were to buy a gram which is $10 where I am, how would the seller on silk road set the price to reflect $10 and how would you know what the bitcoin price was set at?

Most services will show the price in terms of both dollars and bitcoins, so you can figure out what the conversion rate is and whether you are being charged over or under the current exchange rate. I personally like to use Bitstamp as my measure of current bitcoin price, but some services may peg their rate to another exchange or some conglomerate of exchanges (like an index).


(04-28-2016 01:02 AM)CaptainChardonnay Wrote:  Another example would be roosh's books. I know he plans on selling his books for bitcoin, how would he set the price if the value of a bitcoin is always changing

depending on the service that he uses, he only would have to state the price in dollars and the service will automatically adjust the price according to the current exchange rate with whatever index it uses.


(04-28-2016 01:02 AM)CaptainChardonnay Wrote:  The argument he gave was that, if Walmart were to start accepting bitcoin, they would be doing it as a gimmick that benefits them. Say they price things and you go to checkout and it is priced to reflect the value of an actual good.


Whether you or your friend is adopting this "gimmick" language, the choice of words seem a bit loaded and jaded.

Yeah, I understand that there are a lot of bad players, bad companies and even misleading and deceptive companies, but I doubt that there is any real practical reason to start out with some kind of presumption that businesses are trying to trick you in order to make more profits with bitcoin versus what they would make with fiat or credit cards.

In the end, really you should be able to determine by looking at the price whether you are paying more or less when you use bitcoin, and whether you have an incentive to use bitcoin for your own personal reasons. Like I said, if I ever buy anything with bitcoin, I tend to replace within a short-period of time.

For some of the reasons that you suggest in your posting including bitcoin's volatility, a large number of merchants tend to cash out of bitcoin as soon as they receive it. Accordingly, they have no volatility risk because the payment is converted to fiat right away. That is the choice of the merchant, and there will be some merchants who will choose to hold bitcoin or at least a certain percentage of bitcoin (and some bitcoin merchant services allow for merchants to set the amount of bitcoin that they want to convert immediately to fiat (and along the same line keep in bitcoin). You are also correct for accounting purposes, it is likely a whole hell of a lot easier for merchants to convert 100% to fiat...




(04-28-2016 01:02 AM)CaptainChardonnay Wrote:  So if you got a widget and it cost $10, Walmart would spot the bitcoin price at its equivalent value in USD but then add their own fee of converting the bitcoin to USD.

Whether there is a fee, this is going to vary. Some merchants offer several percentage points discount... so I would not believe any blanket statement regarding some kind of hidden fee, because you can figure out means to check the rate yourself and determine whether you are getting a better deal with bitcoin, an equal deal or a worse deal and if it is still worth it to you to use bitcoin, as opposed to some other payment method.

(04-28-2016 01:02 AM)CaptainChardonnay Wrote:  He says Walmart would never hold bitcoin as it is a volatile currency and that means they would never be able to record a bitcoin value on their books.

I suspect anyone who talks in absolutes. Some merchants do choose to hold some of their bitcoin. I think Overstock is public about holding a certain percentage of their bitcoin proceeds in bitcoin (maybe 10% or something like that, at least they did at one time in the recent past).

(04-28-2016 01:02 AM)CaptainChardonnay Wrote:  Essentially he argues that with credit and debit cards, the merchant pays the fee per transaction but with bitcoin it would be the consumer.

I don't necessarily disagreed that there may be many cases in which accepting bitcoin is better for the merchant than for the consumer, but that does not make bitcoin a bad thing, and each of us should be able to determine the extent to which we may want to hold some bitcoin, in case we want to use it for consumption purposes. Like I said, I don't, but some people do chose to use bitcoin for various consumption purposes.

(04-28-2016 01:02 AM)CaptainChardonnay Wrote:  I've tried to google the answer but haven't found something good yet. Best info has been from here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comment...ging_then/

Quote:everything is valued in the local fiat and converted to bitcoin at the point of sale.

How does that work if the value of a bitcoin jumps from say $10 to $1000 within the span of a day continuously as it was when I first saw this thread.

You are being a bit extreme with your volatility description. Bitcoin did jump from $100 to $1,200 in a couple of months, but not a day. Anyhow volatility could affect your transaction, and possibly each of us needs to get used to measures that we can take to off-set some of the volatility that is likely to continue for many years into the future.






(04-28-2016 01:02 AM)CaptainChardonnay Wrote:  It seems like if you want to buy a widget that was say $100USD you could buy 10 BTC and then wait for its equivalent value to go up until it hits the equivalent value of $100USD and then buy the widget

Again each of us choses how much bitcoin we want to hold, and to determine the extent to which we believe it may appreciate in value. I personally believe that it is going to continue to appreciate in value, but my belief does not mean that it is going to appreciate in value. It could also depreciate in value, and one of the risks of volatility is the asset can go either direction.

One way to consider investing in bitcoin is to start slowly and invest $10 a week or some other amount that you are comfortable with, and then learn more about it as you continue to accumulate some of it and continue to consider whether you should continue to accumulate or disinvest... those are personal choices that depend on a lot of factors including your own risk profile, your income stream, your timeline, and other financial investments, amongst other factors..



(04-28-2016 01:02 AM)CaptainChardonnay Wrote:  Another comment
Quote:The same way you set a price in Dollars, Euros, Pesos or any other currency.
Nearly every time you buy something you pay a different price. Consider gasoline, eggs or milk.
If you don't pay the same price in your local currency for basic items like gas, eggs and milk, then the value of your local currency is continuously changing too.
You've come to believe that your currency is stable, and that price of everything else changes. This not not true!
Have you ever heard an old person describe how inexpensive things used to be? Did the value of those things go up, or did the value of the currency go down?

The value of lots of things are constantly in flux, and a basket of goods is a kind of fiction that evolves over time, but items in that basket are going to appreciate and depreciate at different rates..... accordingly, bitcoin is likely a good thing to accumulate because it will likely have an interesting relationship to the various items in our future basket of goods.

(04-28-2016 01:02 AM)CaptainChardonnay Wrote:  Considering this question is the Matrix-equivalent of taking the red pill. You will probably never consider fiat currency in the same way again...

I don't know if red pill is a good analogy, here, but yeah, anytime you learn about interesting things, your view of the world will likely change forever in ways that you could not previously had imagined.



(04-28-2016 01:02 AM)CaptainChardonnay Wrote:  This is true that prices change but a carton of eggs isn't jumping for 50 cents to 100 dollars in the US, it sticks at say 5 dollars. So if i wanted to buy a carton of eggs with bitcoin am i suppose to go to the store and then wait for the price to jump around until it hits 5 equivalent us dollars and then buy the product?

I don't think you need to wait for anything. If you choose to use bitcoin, then you go to the store and you see the price and decide if you want to use bitcoin or not.

It may well be cheaper and more convenient to use fiat or a credit card rather than bitcoin. I think part of the reason not to spend bitcoin yet, is because there are a lot of immature bitcoin systems, and I would not advocate that currently it is a great system for many micro payments. I would rather spend my depreciating cash first or use a credit card and get some points or rebate or miles... and hold onto my bitcoin for other reasons (storage of value and travel and speculation, etc).
(This post was last modified: 04-28-2016 01:57 AM by JayJuanGee.)
04-28-2016 01:55 AM
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Post: #2628
RE: The Bitcoin thread
Here are a couple recent status update articles that I read today.



1) http://cryptohustle.com/bitcoins-consume...tion-phase

Talks about various bitcoin phases, and emphasizes discussion of the consumer adoption phase.... Brings up a lot of good issues, even though there seems a long way to go in each of the earlier phases (that the article suggests have been somewhat completed)


2) http://cryptohustle.com/10-reasons-why-b...-of-crypto


Provides 10 reasons why bitcoin is king of cryptos. Seems a bit repetitive, but nonetheless, provides a good outline of basic reason why bitcoin is number one and other cryptos are likely not to catch up any time soon. I could elaborate on some other examples including the power of the computing infrastructure and the difficulties in changing governance as being two additional bitcoin positives... but anyhow the article does a pretty good job of outlining it's 10 asserted reasons.
05-01-2016 12:37 AM
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Post: #2629
RE: The Bitcoin thread
This guy has come out today and claimed that he is Satoshi:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/video_and_audi...s/36185265

A quick glance at the Bitcoin subreddit suggests they're all a bit skeptical to say the least. Thoughts gentlemen?

As an aside I've been chipping away and buying approx 0.25 BC every month for the last couple of years. When I started I had a figure of 10 BC in my mind, and when I reach that point I'll think I'll just hold on to them and watch what happens rather than keep buying.
(This post was last modified: 05-02-2016 01:36 PM by Rain.)
05-02-2016 01:35 PM
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RE: The Bitcoin thread
(05-02-2016 01:35 PM)Rain Wrote:  This guy has come out today and claimed that he is Satoshi:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/video_and_audi...s/36185265

A quick glance at the Bitcoin subreddit suggests they're all a bit skeptical to say the least. Thoughts gentlemen?

Yeah... initially the BTC market seemed to have reacted negatively to this news because it brought a lot of potential uncertainty, and then dumping coins becomes kind of contagious in attempting to figure out whether the news is correct or not.

Within hours the news had been fairly clearly debunked based on the lack of evidence and the extraordinary claims. For example, a question really remains why anyone with such an important claim, would provide non-proveable, indirect "evidence" rather than more simple evidence that he would surely have access to, if Wright's claim of being Satoshi were really true.

It ends up being a bit of a sham on the bitcoin community, and likely will further tarnish Gavin's reputation. Gavin corroborated Wright's flimsy evidence, and then had some of his github commit privileges tentatively removed based on such outrageous claims (probably especially since Gavin had already appeared to have been engaging in a kind of bitcoin coupe with his proposed hardfork changes in bitcoin's governance through XT and Classic and this kind of undermining of bitcoin could help to prop up some of those coupe terms of XT and Classic). It's likely that Gavin's credibility in the bitcoin community is going to go to shit as and after this plays out.


(05-02-2016 01:35 PM)Rain Wrote:  As an aside I've been chipping away and buying approx 0.25 BC every month for the last couple of years. When I started I had a figure of 10 BC in my mind, and when I reach that point I'll think I'll just hold on to them and watch what happens rather than keep buying.

Each of us has to decide the extent to which we feel sufficiently invested in order to have a sufficient stake in BTC. Maybe after you have achieved your 10BTC goal, you may want to reconsider your plan in another way at that point.

I would recommend considering your goal in terms of fiat rather than BTC. In that regard, maybe investing on a weekly basis of approximately $25 a week or some other convenient amount that is priced in dollars rather than BTC. Accordingly, you measure it up with your fiat cash flow, and if prices are high you buy less and if prices are low, you buy more... and you continue to accumulate. At the same time, you can consider that if we get a 2x, 5x or 10x price upsurge, you may want to consider pulling out some of your fiat.. and possibly holding some of it for reinvestment and some of it to take out completely. Each of us has to decide for our own situation how exactly to accumulate and then from time to time reallocate in accordance with all of our various investments and the extent to which to include BTC in such investment mix.
05-02-2016 03:24 PM
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Post: #2631
RE: The Bitcoin thread
Here's a couple of decent links on the topic of Wright claiming to be Satoshi, again.



This Forbes article shows that the claims seem fantastical and the scam had happened previously.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/thomasbrewst...1d084f708f


Andreas Antonopolis posted that he had been contacted to verify the identity of Satoshi and to sign a non-disclosure agreement. He was sceptical regarding the need to verify Satoshi through appeals to status, rather than actual proof (and whether any such need is present in bitcoin to appeal to authority... so who cares?)


https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comment...two_weeks/
05-02-2016 05:11 PM
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Post: #2632
RE: The Bitcoin thread
(05-02-2016 03:24 PM)JayJuanGee Wrote:  Each of us has to decide the extent to which we feel sufficiently invested in order to have a sufficient stake in BTC. Maybe after you have achieved your 10BTC goal, you may want to reconsider your plan in another way at that point.

I would recommend considering your goal in terms of fiat rather than BTC. In that regard, maybe investing on a weekly basis of approximately $25 a week or some other convenient amount that is priced in dollars rather than BTC. Accordingly, you measure it up with your fiat cash flow, and if prices are high you buy less and if prices are low, you buy more... and you continue to accumulate. At the same time, you can consider that if we get a 2x, 5x or 10x price upsurge, you may want to consider pulling out some of your fiat.. and possibly holding some of it for reinvestment and some of it to take out completely. Each of us has to decide for our own situation how exactly to accumulate and then from time to time reallocate in accordance with all of our various investments and the extent to which to include BTC in such investment mix.

Understand entirely. The only reason I picked an arbitrary 10 BC amount was simply to be involved in the event that another huge price spike occurs again. When I finally digested how Bitcoin actually works, there were all sorts of wild predictions being made online about them going up to USD 10k per coin in the future and possibly even higher, so I just wanted to invest a bit of loose change every month at current pricing levels to see what happens in a few years. At USD 1k per coin, if that ever happens again, I'll suspend buying and watch with interest.

I just don't know enough about it and all its underlying volatility factors to make a more scientific investment strategy than that, but I'll follow this thread with interest. Thanks for the advice.
05-03-2016 01:00 PM
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Post: #2633
RE: The Bitcoin thread
(05-03-2016 01:00 PM)Rain Wrote:  
(05-02-2016 03:24 PM)JayJuanGee Wrote:  Each of us has to decide the extent to which we feel sufficiently invested in order to have a sufficient stake in BTC. Maybe after you have achieved your 10BTC goal, you may want to reconsider your plan in another way at that point.

I would recommend considering your goal in terms of fiat rather than BTC. In that regard, maybe investing on a weekly basis of approximately $25 a week or some other convenient amount that is priced in dollars rather than BTC. Accordingly, you measure it up with your fiat cash flow, and if prices are high you buy less and if prices are low, you buy more... and you continue to accumulate. At the same time, you can consider that if we get a 2x, 5x or 10x price upsurge, you may want to consider pulling out some of your fiat.. and possibly holding some of it for reinvestment and some of it to take out completely. Each of us has to decide for our own situation how exactly to accumulate and then from time to time reallocate in accordance with all of our various investments and the extent to which to include BTC in such investment mix.

Understand entirely. The only reason I picked an arbitrary 10 BC amount was simply to be involved in the event that another huge price spike occurs again. When I finally digested how Bitcoin actually works, there were all sorts of wild predictions being made online about them going up to USD 10k per coin in the future and possibly even higher, so I just wanted to invest a bit of loose change every month at current pricing levels to see what happens in a few years. At USD 1k per coin, if that ever happens again, I'll suspend buying and watch with interest.

I just don't know enough about it and all its underlying volatility factors to make a more scientific investment strategy than that, but I'll follow this thread with interest. Thanks for the advice.

Thanks for the response. Surely, I am considerably invested in bitcoin, and that's part of the explanation why I participate in this thread with such regularity and adding quite a bit of ongoing snapshots to the thread for the past 2.5 years - and attempting to engage to the extent that RVF guys are interested in the subject.

Personally, I think the bitcoin topic should be extremely interesting to RVF guys because there is a pretty high ratio of RVF guys who like to travel internationally, are engaged in international travel, and aspire towards travel. I think that international travel was part of my original interest in bitcoin to figure out how to hold some value and be able to control that value while traveling. Some of my travel plans have been temporarily delayed due to some business complications, but I am still thinking that I am going to be able to travel within the coming years as soon as I am able to resolve some of my recent personal obstacles.

My initial goal was to attempt to acquire something like 30 BTC within about a year (or maybe less) starting in late 2013, while I continued to research into the matter.. Since prices went down considerably, I learned quite a bit more about BTC, and there has been more passage of time, I have tweaked my plans through the passage of time.

From your framing of your personal situation, it sounds as if you are probably getting pretty close to (if not already there) achieving your 10 BTC initial goal... So, yeah, I cannot disagree with your plan to hold and continue to watch.

I don't really consider myself as someone to give advice, but whenever I do learn about the financial circumstances of people based on discussions of such, I do attempt to suggest ways that they can incorporate bitcoin into their personal investment plans (to the extent that they are receptive to such).. which I find in the real world, a large majority of people that I meet remain as considerable skeptics... hahahahahaha so my success in introducing and also witnessing actual investment is a pretty low percentage.

Actually, did not say too much about my own bitcoin investment or even attempt to steer folks in such direction until about late 2014 when the price was in the $375 territory, and then I engaged in a fairly broad e-mailing of friends, relatives and acquaintances to inform them of such bitcoin situation, and to say bitcoin is a great investment.... but it was their choice. We know what happened from there... hahahahaha.. price went further down and then stayed stagnant for nearly a year, etc etc etc. However, a couple people that I know invested and hung on and they did pretty well in their portfolio but was a scary time when prices were hovering mostly in the lower $200s for about 9 months (long enough for a baby). Scary for me, too, but I held and continued to buy to the extent that I had any available cashflow during that period... which was kind of during the period that some of my own business shenanigans was going down and putting a cramp on my cashflow.

I think about leading a horse to water, and the rest is up to them... which sometimes they choose not to even take a small stake in spite my outlining the matter fairly clearly and rationally... tard hahahahaha
05-03-2016 03:00 PM
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Post: #2634
RE: The Bitcoin thread
Actually, one additional point related to my above post and regarding whether we consider bitcoin as a means to “get rich” or to have some other purpose.

Not planning to get rich with bitcoin could be a decent investment mindset... yet we likely realize that we prefer to have any of our invested earnings to have a competitive storage of value.. and to attempt to at least equal other investment vehicles


Bitcoin is in no way a stable investment vehicle.. but with that lack of stability and accompanied risk comes the possibility that if it does appreciate, it will appreciate in value much greater than other assets (repeat, that is if it does appreciate)... Accordingly, many of us, including myself, begin to think that it is possible to become rich (or at least richer than we already are) with the possibility of considerable appreciation by taking a decent stake in bitcoin.

We could lose 100% of our investment; however, it remains possible to 2x, 5x, 10x, 100x or even 1000x within 1-10 years... ....

Anyhow, because of the risk/reward of bitcoin as an investment, I placed as much money into it as I thought would be feasible in the event that bitcoin were to go to either zero or to appreciate. I would still be able to survive o.k. if bitcoin were to go to zero; however, because I am taking a chance that it could exponentially increase in value, I remain fairly content when my investment into bitcoin at least retains the original value of the investment.

I consider appreciation of value beyond my initial investment to be icing on my investment cake... In other words, I am not counting on getting rich from bitcoin, but I have enough stake in the game that if it were to exponentially increase in value, I would do very well with a large number of appreciation scenarios.. and I would consider myself to have become fairly rich with anywhere above 10x increase in value. Another question remains regarding whether BTC would be able to retain such a 10x increase in value, and some profits will likely need to be taken off the table at that point (and points along the way to prepare for the likelihood that there are going to be ups and downs in bitcoin's ongoing price performance).
05-03-2016 05:25 PM
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Post: #2635
RE: The Bitcoin thread
(05-03-2016 05:25 PM)JayJuanGee Wrote:  We could lose 100% of our investment; however, it remains possible to 2x, 5x, 10x, 100x or even 1000x within 1-10 years... ....

Sure it's possible. Angel
05-04-2016 05:01 AM
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RE: The Bitcoin thread
(05-04-2016 05:01 AM)Satoshi Wrote:  
(05-03-2016 05:25 PM)JayJuanGee Wrote:  We could lose 100% of our investment; however, it remains possible to 2x, 5x, 10x, 100x or even 1000x within 1-10 years... ....

Sure it's possible. Angel

Where's your elaboration Satoshi?


Of course, Bitcoin is a hell-of-a lot less likely to 1000x in the shortest of the period of time that I listed in my earlier post (which was 1 year)... and that possibility would be like a very small fraction of one percentage to occur so suddenly, and even stretching out in the longer of the frame work the possibility is probably still below 1%... depends on who you ask, and surely there is some speculation and better-case-scenarios that would have to evolve.

1000x by the way, would put bitcoin's at about $450k each and market cap at about $7 trillion, which is about 2x of gold's current market cap around $3.5 trillion. 1000x is not a total pie in the sky scenario for bitcoin to reach such an evaluation, and part of my point in listing that 1000x as a possibility is to say just that. It's possible... and probably even more possible than aliens. There are actual threads on the topic, too including some theoretical models for $1 million BTC or even $2million BTC. Timelines for such, do definitely vary and assume a considerably high level of BTC adoption.
05-04-2016 07:28 AM
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RE: The Bitcoin thread
I don't know what to make of the below linked article, exactly, but the author is fairly bullish about bitcoin, and claims that he had predicted Bitcoin's 2013 rise to above $1,000 and it's subsequent fall. I take any self-proclaimed soothsayers with a grain of salt; however, currently, he is predicting $1,000+ in 2016 and $3,000+ in 2017.

His numbers are a bit similar to mine; however, I'm kind of thinking that once BTC prices go passed $800-ish, then they will likely shoot well passed $1,000 into the $3k to $5k territory and then settle back into the $1,000s.. and then possibly have another run at a later date to go passed $5k into the $10k-ish territory.

But, yeah, when my actual prediction occurs (if it does) is difficult to predict with any precision or to know because first of all we gotta get out of the $400s first, if we can?.. which getting out of the $400s will likely take us into the $600s.. and then maybe a correction back to the $500s or even $400s, and thereafter, it could take a while to get out of the $500 to $800 price range.

Anyhow, the below linked article is a decent read:


http://www.coindesk.com/2016%E2%80%8A-br...awakening/
05-07-2016 02:47 PM
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Post: #2638
RE: The Bitcoin thread
JJG, is there an investment vehicle that lets an investor gain exposure to bitcoin without actually owning bitcoin? Basically does something like GLD exist for bitcoin? Enjoy your commentary.
05-07-2016 07:47 PM
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Post: #2639
RE: The Bitcoin thread
(05-07-2016 07:47 PM)PartManPartMonkey Wrote:  JJG, is there an investment vehicle that lets an investor gain exposure to bitcoin without actually owning bitcoin? Basically does something like GLD exist for bitcoin? Enjoy your commentary.


I believe that the only one currently is GBTC. There were some RVF guys (at least one) that claims to have bought into this (and possibly sold too?)...

The investment fund has been around for nearly two years (I believe), and it was started by one of the companies funded by Barry Silbert. Over the last several years, Silbert has been instrumental in funding quite a few bitcoin companies.

I believe that the fund has various restrictions regarding in and out time frames and also like minimum investment quantities, unless I suppose if you go through some kind of either employer group or investment group, then you may be able to buy in smaller initial quantities.

At some point, the GBTC should have some competitor funds, but I don't know about any others, except I believe COIN by the Winkelvoss brothers is supposed to be an ETF that may be a kind of competitor. COIN has not been approved yet, and has been pending application to be an ETF for more than 2 years.

If you look at GBTC's performance compared with bitcoin, you will see that it has been a bit more volatile, and mostly on the upside.. For example, currently it's running at about $749 per BTC while it costs only about $457 to buy BTC directly.

If anyone knows about other BTC investment funds, then please chime in.
05-07-2016 08:42 PM
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Post: #2640
RE: The Bitcoin thread
I may have posted the below link earlier; however, even if so, I believe that it is worth repeating the posting of such link in order to show the relatively small size of bitcoin compared with the sizes of net worth of rich individuals, various money supplies, other assets, debt and derivatives.

http://money.visualcapitalist.com/all-of...alization/

By implication, the relative smallness of bitcoin shows how much room remains for it's growth to double triple or even to 10x in size and still remain relatively small in comparison with some of the other assets depicted in that linked website.
05-08-2016 10:25 PM
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Post: #2641
RE: The Bitcoin thread
For illustrative purposes, this one is good, too in order to make a decent point about the relative size of bitcoin compared with money supply.



[Image: ?u=https%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FKA8CuED.p...NQDR6y7_bQ]
(This post was last modified: 05-08-2016 11:26 PM by JayJuanGee.)
05-08-2016 11:09 PM
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Post: #2642
RE: The Bitcoin thread
Waiting for a stupid bitcoin block and just seeing myself losing money minute by minute.
05-10-2016 10:02 AM
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Post: #2643
RE: The Bitcoin thread
(05-10-2016 10:02 AM)Satoshi Wrote:  Waiting for a stupid bitcoin block and just seeing myself losing money minute by minute.

Recently, you seem to be hitting on a large number of the butt hurt bitcoin troll talking points, without providing any details... and likely either exaggerating, making things up or having unrealistic expectations.

Oh, poor Satoshi, what's going on with your transaction delay? Did you use fees? Oh, you found that $.04 was too much, so you tried to send without fees, because it's your "right." Oh, Poor guy, expects bitcoin to function like visa...., except completely free because $.04 is too much to pay... tard
(This post was last modified: 05-10-2016 02:57 PM by JayJuanGee.)
05-10-2016 02:55 PM
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Post: #2644
RE: The Bitcoin thread
(05-10-2016 02:55 PM)JayJuanGee Wrote:  
(05-10-2016 10:02 AM)Satoshi Wrote:  Waiting for a stupid bitcoin block and just seeing myself losing money minute by minute.

Recently, you seem to be hitting on a large number of the butt hurt bitcoin troll talking points, without providing any details... and likely either exaggerating, making things up or having unrealistic expectations.

Oh, poor Satoshi, what's going on with your transaction delay? Did you use fees? Oh, you found that $.04 was too much, so you tried to send without fees, because it's your "right." Oh, Poor guy, expects bitcoin to function like visa...., except completely free because $.04 is too much to pay... tard


By the way, less than an hour ago, I sent about 3.15 BTC (nearly $1,500) through my Blockchain.info wallet, and the current app on my Iphone dynamically chose the fee to be .0000727 (less than $.03), and the transaction showed up within seconds unconfirmed, and it took 5 minutes to confirm with three confirmations.

Even though we likely need to experience several more user-friendly innovations in the bitcoin space, I'm frequently impressed with the control that I have over my money in using blockchain.info, for example, and also the speed and low fees with the transactions.

I may have mentioned that I did have one problem a few months ago in that I sent some bitcoins to a person, and he paid me dollars through Venmo... I actually received the Venmo dollars, and transferred them to my bank through the app, and thereafter, I sent the guy the bitcoins... Yeah right..

The next day, Venmo reversed the dollar/bank transmittal, even though their statement said that transactions were not reversible... so yeah, a problem with bitcoin is that transactions are not reversible when dealing with people who want to scam you, and apparently the guy did not have the dollars in his venmo account, even though it appeared that he had sent them to me.... Accordingly, I'm not sending bitcoin's to people no more unless for sure I have the cash in hand.... and probably, we need to figure out some better systems for the various scams that rely on bitcoin's irreversibility.
05-10-2016 07:23 PM
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Post: #2645
RE: The Bitcoin thread
Actually there was a fee in the transaction. 0.00024495 BTC to be exact which is about 11 cents. And for me a transaction with visa in a foreign currency comes at a cost at a 1.25% foreign currency fee. So you're wrong again JJG. But at least a visa transaction goes through immidetly. With the new revolutionary technology called bitcoin one has to wait for a so called block which could be anytime from instant to an hour away.
(This post was last modified: 05-10-2016 07:26 PM by Satoshi.)
05-10-2016 07:24 PM
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Post: #2646
RE: The Bitcoin thread
(05-10-2016 07:24 PM)Satoshi Wrote:  Actually there was a fee in the transaction. 0.00024495 BTC to be exact which is about 11 cents. And for me a transaction with visa in a foreign currency comes at a cost at a 1.25% foreign currency fee. So you're wrong again JJG. But at least a visa transaction goes through immidetly. With the new revolutionary technology called bitcoin one has to wait for a so called block which could be anytime from instant to an hour away.


You are becoming more combative and self-righteous over stupid shit. You post some vague statement about a delayed transaction without details, and then I describe my some of my own recent experiences, and then you argue that I am wrong about your circumstances, apparently, because I didn't guess your details correctly?

Anyhow, I thought that you were getting out of bitcoin at $250 because you believed it had no future.. so now, for some reason you are back, and you want to use the crippled coin, AKA bitcoin?

Regarding comparing credit card payment systems and bitcoin, we seem to be comparing too different things.. bitcoin is much more than a payment system, even though that part of what it can do, and you should know that by now....

I don't really see any need to respond more substantively to you because really you should know better regarding what bitcoin has to offer as compared to a lot of centralized systems, yet sure you are apparently bearish about bitcoin, but a bit of a lost bear because you are still likely dabbling in other cryptos attempting to find the next best one in order to speculate and to profit from it... I have no problems with that, but in the end, bitcoin remains the most solid of any of the cryptos, and there are no recent developments changing that in recent times.

You, or anyone else considering whether they are bitcoin sceptics, may want to consider whether they want to get some skin in the game, because things are looking really good for bitcoin in the coming year or two. Whether we get one or two more 10x price performances out of bitcoin in the coming years is still to be seen, and my personal position (stake in bitcoin) is not dependent on any exponential price rise (so icing on the cake for me, if it were to occur).
05-10-2016 11:28 PM
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Post: #2647
RE: The Bitcoin thread
Think about where bitcoin fits into a pattern like the below graft of innovative introductions.


   



Bitcoin remains less than 1% of the US population even knowing about it in any kind of meaningful way.. and world-wide the percentage probably is even lower...
(This post was last modified: 05-10-2016 11:49 PM by JayJuanGee.)
05-10-2016 11:46 PM
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Post: #2648
RE: The Bitcoin thread
We cannot deny that there is some relation in the price performance of ETH and BTC because, even though there are a variety of additional liquidation avenues opening up for BTC (people definitely want to profit on ETH's increased trade volume); nonetheless, it is gonna be interesting how this interplay develops...

How long can ETH keep up the artificial hype because there is not any real tangible value there, beyond the actual pumping of it? Almost all of these ETH value propositions (in the sense of utility, rather than monetization) can be fairly easily absorbed into being secured on through bitcoin... which as we should realize is thousands of times more secure.

It will be interesting to see how much longer this ETH pump can be sustained because, for example, when 185k ETH disappears from Gatecoin (hacked), that should have actually caused a decrease in value for ETH, but instead we see a pump of ETH and likely those folks holding the stolen 185k ETH are going to be able to cash out through such pump. But maybe no real dent to ETH,because ETH generates about an additional million ETH per month, too..? The ETH price just seems destined to end badly, and yet I continue to wonder whether there is going to be some correlation (possibly inverse correlation) with Bitcoin's price - at some point in the fairly near future?

I don't really know, but kind of speculating regarding some current happenings in the BTC/ETH price scene.
05-17-2016 02:14 PM
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Post: #2649
RE: The Bitcoin thread
I thought this topic was for BTC only since you made me create new thread for discussion of another crypto currency which I find interesting. You said that there is "no real tangible value there" in ETH however I disagree and think the smart contracts are very cool and that's something BTC can't do. In my opinion ETH is also the second one to be big enough to actually have a USD market. LTC used to be that big but isn't anymore.
05-17-2016 07:11 PM
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RE: The Bitcoin thread
(05-17-2016 07:11 PM)Satoshi Wrote:  I thought this topic was for BTC only since you made me create new thread for discussion of another crypto currency which I find interesting. You said that there is "no real tangible value there" in ETH however I disagree and think the smart contracts are very cool and that's something BTC can't do. In my opinion ETH is also the second one to be big enough to actually have a USD market. LTC used to be that big but isn't anymore.


By the title of this thread, we all should recognize that this is the bitcoin thread, so posts should be somehow be connected with BTC issues - or at least attempting to make some kind of meaningful connection to BTC, no?

Regarding your claim that I made you do something... hahahahahaha... I am not sure how I could make you do anything, unless you may have already been persuaded to do whatever I was suggesting... I mean really???

But to give you some benefit of the doubt, if you had come into this thread pumping various other alts without even attempting to make any meaningful connection to BTC, then likely you would have been off topic, no?

Regarding your other thread, where is it? give us a link. There are some arguments that various other cryptos could be interesting to follow, though most of them seem to be pump and dumps, but there are likely some that can add some value to the whole space, including adding potential value to bitcoin at some point down the road. Some guys who are looking at bitcoin may also have some interests in looking at the contents of such an RVF thread that relates to other cryptos, too. If there is such a thread.

Regarding any necessity to back up my claims concerning the lack of value of various other crypto's including ETH, I think that I have sufficiently stated my claim to the extent that it is relevant to this BTC thread. If you think that either ETH or any other crypto is going to surplant BTC because of some kind of killer value that it adds, then the burden is likely on you rather than me to persuade regarding any such extraordinary claim, if any such claim exists... beyond some evidence of short term pump and dump price movements.

By the way, I get the sense that you remain a bit butt hurt about selling your BTC at $250 and denigrating the whole BTC matter, when the evidence seems quite contrary to your previous assertions, and this is not just about BTC's subsequent upward price movements but ongoing developments in the BTC space and likely resolution of a lot of the issues surrounding the XT/Classic fearmongering.

Anyhow, when you got out of bitcoin at $250, you seemed to be making claims that investing in Maidsafe and Mastercoin could be better ways to go because largely you considered bitcoin to be ded.. and now, suddenly you seem to be suggesting ETH benefits over BTC or are you just merely on the same train of butthurt thoughts to engage in further attempts at BTC bashing?


What a world? what a world? You seem to get more and more resentful about this whole BTC prediction matter with the passage of time, no? And, you won't back down, for some reason you still consider bitcoin dead? Seems a bit contrary to logic and actual on the ground facts, no?
(This post was last modified: 05-17-2016 08:23 PM by JayJuanGee.)
05-17-2016 07:59 PM
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