Post: #26

(04-16-2016 06:54 PM)Que enspastic Wrote:  I was taught to read at 3 years of age and went to a top academic school and university. At age 5 I used to think it was weird that kids at school needed their parents to read to them - why didn't they just read by themselves? At dinner I was expected to discuss political and philosophical ideas, leaders and events with my parents and their friends who were academics and top business people - this was from the age of at least 13/14 years old. I was given books as presents and had access to my parents large library of reading material.

I was expected to win academic prizes at school - that was seen as normal. And it was seen as cool to win because people wanted to scoop up those prizes at the end of year award ceremony held in a big music auditorium. At university my peers were all extremely smart and competitive and intellectually curious about almost everything. They all took on prestigious jobs after graduating.

I never really considered any of this as out of the ordinary until I joined the workforce around age 23/24. I had grown up with the quote "small minds talk about people, greater minds talk about events, and the best minds talk about ideas". Suddenly everyone seemed to be in the first category and I found it really difficult to join in on the chat as I wasn't used to conversations on this level. I'd never watched reality TV or soaps and felt completely stumped - why is any of this even of interest to anyone ?

Great post, and my ideal.

My family is firmly middle-class, and mostly philistines. But my parents taught me reading, writing, and arithmetic before I started grade 1. I spent most of grades 1 and 2 in the library, because the teachers figured it was pointless to keep me in class. Similar thing happened in grade 9, and also 11 and 12.

But I always hated school. Hated and dreaded going there. Hated authority. All the teachers (barring very few exceptions) were small-minded fools, and it was apparent even as a child. Most of them were politically leftist, and tried to force their viewpoints on us, even when it had nothing to do with the subject at hand.

Anyway, once I asked my friend from Quebec what it was like going to a private school. He was from a wealthy family. He said (echoing Que's words above) that the only difference, he could tell, was EXPECTATION.

He said there were just as many jerk students and jerk teachers. Just as much wasted time.

But they were told every day that they were expected to make something of their lives. That they had every advantage, and so should be getting ahead.

Expected to know about things. Expected to be successful.

The thirst for knowledge has to come from within. Some people have it more than others. But I figure most every child has a lot more of it when they enter school than when they leave.

The two most important things to focus on, when cultivating the education of others, would be:
1. Do not kill their natural curiosity with mindless busywork and rote.
2. Articulate high expectations.

Post: #27

Am I the only one who questions why the basic school curriculum society has agreed upon is so impractical? I'm speaking on the most fundamental level here; why is it so settled that literature, history, math, science, a second language, and phys ed are the most crucial subjects for kids to be educated on? Math and science I agree with, but the others...

Literature- Could be good in theory for developing critical thinking skills, but in practice it's never taught that way. In my experience it ranges anywhere from rote memorization of the plot of a few books (dumb teacher) to mindless indoctrination of liberal viewpoints (leftist teacher).
History- It's good to understand how colossally brutal and fucked up the world has been, so as to make people vigilant about how nasty human nature can be under the right conditions. It's fucking pointless to memorize (and promptly forget) every last battle, famous person, rebellion, etc.
Second language- 99% of people in English speaking countries who learn a second language will never use it. Those who do use it will have forgotten most of what they learned in school by the time they need it.
Phys ed- Also known as changing clothes, half-assedly playing a sport for 16 minutes, and changing back class. Seriously, that article is no exaggeration; modern gym class is an utter fucking waste and they're not even trying anymore. In a sane world, gym class would consist of some real exercise, and kids who play a varsity sport would receive a study hall in its place. What the fuck is the point of a kid who runs hours of suicides at basketball practice every evening having a period in school dedicated to changing clothes, does a few jumping jacks, and taking a swing at a softball pitch?

After having their time wasted ad nauseum with the pointless bullshit described above, most kids graduate high school (and college and grad school) with little or no knowledge of the following:
-how to maintain and fix a car
-how to maintain and fix a home
-how to invest and save
-how to file a tax return
-how to lift weights
-how to see through propaganda
-how to form business relationships
-how to be a leader
-how to attract the opposite sex

Could anyone in their right mind tell me that these things aren't as important as knowing the plot of "Moby Dick"?

Everyone is poorly educated, because school as we know it is broken on the very most fundamental level.

Post: #28

Quote:Am I the only one who questions why the basic school curriculum society has agreed upon is so impractical? I'm speaking on the most fundamental level here; why is it so settled that literature, history, math, science, a second language, and phys ed are the most crucial subjects for kids to be educated on? Math and science I agree with, but the others...

Literature, or more specifically reading books with better than average word usage, narrative structure, and sentence structure, grows your verbal intelligence. Growing your verbal intelligence, as it implies, makes you permanently smarter. The words available to you create your mental map of reality and thus improve your problem solving ability. It expands your perception of the world.

History teaches you what happened in the past so that it does not repeat or that it can be repeated. History teaches you that you aren't as smart as you think that you are. History teaches culture. History teaches heritage. History teaches philosophy. History teaches theology. History also teaches politics (or at least gives you the basis for learning it). Politics is how you stay free. Like literature, history also expands your perception of the world.

A second language, and especially French or Latin, will greatly expand your understanding of Western language in general and thus expand your "map" and thus, theoretically, your verbal intelligence. It's also good cognitive exercise in my opinion.

Phys ed should be supplanted by mandatory sports participation to the tune of at least two sports per year. Many sports improve reaction time, which is directly correlated to intelligence. Sports build character, make you well-rounded, and the physical exertion is great for brain development.

Quote:-how to maintain and fix a car
-how to maintain and fix a home
-how to invest and save
-how to file a tax return
-how to lift weights
-how to see through propaganda
-how to form business relationships
-how to be a leader
-how to attract the opposite sex

I agree that these are good practical skills, but an education in the other things is what enables us to solve most higher level problems of civilization.

Quote:Could anyone in their right mind tell me that these things aren't as important as knowing the plot of "Moby Dick"?

I agree that Moby Dick isn't great.

Quote:School is broken on the very most fundamental level.

We are where we are because of classical education, or an approximation of it, not in spite of it (in my opinion).

But I feel your frustration.

Post: #29

Car repair is overrated as a practical skill unless your life circumstances require frequent, regular long drives.

Post: #30

(04-16-2016 11:02 PM)hydrogonian Wrote:  Literature, or more specifically reading books with better than average word usage, narrative structure, and sentence structure, grows your verbal intelligence. Growing your verbal intelligence, as it implies, makes you permanently smarter. The words available to you create your mental map of reality and thus improve your problem solving ability. It expands your perception of the world.

That's fantastic reason to casually read intelligent material you enjoy, not to painstakingly memorize details of old literature you couldn't give two shits about. Heartiste's blog, notwithstanding the KKK material he's been emphasizing lately, has enriched me more than every book I've ever read combined. I was the Sparknotes kid in high school and have hardly read any fictional literature since; I still believe I'm pretty articulate.

Quote:History teaches you what happened in the past so that it does not repeat or that it can be repeated. History teaches you that you aren't as smart as you think that you are. History teaches culture. History teaches heritage. History teaches philosophy. History teaches theology. History also teaches politics (or at least gives you the basis for learning it). Politics is how you stay free. Like literature, history also expands your perception of the world.

I agree with history's importance on a big-picture level. Again, the amount of detail memorization in school history class is outrageous and pointless.

Quote:A second language, and especially French or Latin, will greatly expand your understanding of Western language in general and thus expand your "map" and thus, theoretically, your verbal intelligence. It's also good cognitive exercise in my opinion.

Maybe to some degree, but there are far better cognitive exercises in my opinion.

Quote:Phys ed should be supplanted by mandatory sports participation to the tune of at least two sports per year. Many sports improve reaction time, which is directly correlated to intelligence. Sports build character, make you well-rounded, and the physical exertion is great for brain development.

I assume you mean for boys only, but even so not everyone is a sports person, nor is there room for everyone to be a sports person. The soccer team can't have 200 kids on it. Sports are absolutely beneficial, but as long as every student is doing something to stay in shape, I think that's the best we can ask for.

Post: #31

You cannot teach someone who does not want to learn. Further to this, if you want to learn you will & you will teach yourself.

I blamed a few teachers for shitty teaching sure, but ultimately I let that be an excuse for my poor grades in that area.

I have learnt more about the world around me & beyond in the last 4 years than I have in the 30 odd preceding that. It's all comes down to attitude & personal responsibility. Especially now that the Internet is a thing.

Post: #32

I believe 90% of actual life skills are not taught in schools.

Sadly you're either lucky enough to be born with strong parents or role models, or you're left to 'figure it all out' on your own, which is pretty sad. Thankfully the internet makes this easier.

I won't completely negate the merits of education, but knowing about the writings of Edgar Allen Poe, how to perform algebra, or the names of all the capital cities in East Asia is not going to do much in terms of helping you find a job, deal with people, meet girls, etc

If anything, sports should be mandatory and everything else should be electives; I think a young man would probably learn more from team sports than he would from any amount homework assignments or mid-term exams.

Post: #33

I would say yes, I had a very bad education. I'm from the New York City area, I was just a kid from the projects that didn't know any better.

I really gained my education by getting a job in the public library when I was a teenager. I was a page, so I'd have to pick up the books off the tables when people left them there. One night there was a Bertolt Brecht book that caught my eye. I didn't know who the hell he was but I took the book home and started reading it. I was hooked, after that night I started to work my way through all the sections of the library, learning about literature, philosophy, travel, electronics.

I also gained a few mentors, a lot of them were homeless men who came to stay in the library during daytime hours. I didn't know what caused them to become homeless but some of these guys were former engineers, professors, musicians etc. One man in particular was a Latvian man who taught me German grammar/foundation. I remember that he was going to teach me Russian next but he had died before we could get started.

Another wild thing is that they would throw out books at this library. Sometimes it was because the director was clearly a fan of censorship or they were just old. I gained a massive collection that I still have to this day

I eventually went on to get some non STEM degrees but I attribute the best part of my education and development to those times.

Post: #34

(04-16-2016 10:30 PM)Delta Wrote:  ...
History- It's good to understand how colossally brutal and fucked up the world has been, so as to make people vigilant about how nasty human nature can be under the right conditions. It's fucking pointless to memorize (and promptly forget) every last battle, famous person, rebellion, etc....

History in school should be renamed "How socialism destroys societies and kills millions" and be taught as such.

You're very right about the rest of it too. It never made sense to me that in high school we did one hour of each lesson per day.

Go to a different class. Get out your books/get changed (p.e.). Wait for the stragglers. Start. Run out of time. Pack up your books/get changed. Go to a different class.

Why not do Maths on Monday. Science on Tuesday. P.E on Wednesday. etc etc.

Why is everyone dragged along at the same pace? What's the point of failing a kid at maths from years 8 through 12? Why not dump them back in the class they failed with the younger kids so that by the time they get to age 17 they at least have a pass on year 9 maths. And who knows, maybe the mere threat of being dropped in with the younger kids will compel them to lift their game.

A person could get the strange impression that our education system is designed specifically to fail, or at very least it's designed to cater to the teachers union rather than the student's needs.

Post: #35

Unfortunately, it's a fact that schooling gets in the way of education. Self-learning done after school is where I learned at least 90% of my most important skills and knowledge. I get people who ask me "did you study history? or "did you study ____" and when I say no, they ask me "then why do you know so much about [topic]?". Then I have to reply with something like "I don't know, how does somebody learn something."

Post: #36

(04-16-2016 10:30 PM)Delta Wrote:  most kids graduate high school (and college and grad school) with little or no knowledge of the following:
-how to maintain and fix a car
-how to maintain and fix a home
-how to invest and save
-how to file a tax return
-how to lift weights
-how to see through propaganda
-how to form business relationships
-how to be a leader
-how to attract the opposite sex

Could anyone in their right mind tell me that these things aren't as important as knowing the plot of "Moby Dick"?

Fixing a car and filing a tax return can easily be farmed out, and there is no reason to know how to do them.

Yes, I'd much rather have the patience to read and comprehend Moby Dick. I'd argue that this would go hand in hand with seeing through propaganda, forming business relationships, being a leader, and attracting the opposite sex. It's not necessary, but it helps.

Of course, one only needs practical things to get tangible results in life. But where is the pizzaz and savor of living?

Moby Dick and War & Peace and all the other great books that have stood the test of time are not meant to be easy to read (just like lifting heavy weight is not easy). They are enlightening. They facilitate self-knowledge.

Anyway, the problem here is factory schools. Most people I know hate literature because it was forced on them at school, and "decoded" by some moron who presumed to know what each artist "really" meant by each word, as if all a great thinker can do is create thick crossword puzzles.

Post: #37

(04-16-2016 05:50 PM)Merenguero Wrote:  

(04-16-2016 05:48 PM)R_Niko Wrote:  But yeah, almost everyone I know that was educated in North America post 1970s is a fuckin retard compared to anyone that wasn't.

I'm guessing that you don't know many people from Latin America, particularly people from places other than Cuba, Argentina, and Puerto Rico.

Don't know a lot about the rest but have met a lot of affluent Argentinians in Europe. Both the men and women were retarded and racist. Surprising & disappointing considering they come from the richest country in SA.

I'd day White Brazilians are the smartest Latinos I've met.

Post: #38

@TooFineAPoint-

School cannot give one the patience to read Moby Dick. All school does is tell you to read 30 pages a night when you have a million other things you'd rather be doing, then make sure you know what happened in those pages, wielding grades to reward you for knowing and penalize you for not knowing. It feels so pointless at the time. And being an adult now, I still feel like it was pointless. No epiphany or enlightenment comes of being forcefed something you're not into. 0% of my "pizzaz and savor of living" is derived from things I studied in grade school.

You know what class from high school I still call upon to this day and am really glad I took? Typing. Was I super into typing at the time? No. But that's the beauty of menial, practical classes; you don't need to have a passion for them to get something useful out of them. These are the things best suited to a classroom environment.

Of course it's important for society to have deep, critical thinkers. But school is the last place in the world I'd realistically expect such minds to be developed.

Post: #39

(04-16-2016 11:28 PM)Delta Wrote:  

(04-16-2016 11:02 PM)hydrogonian Wrote:  Literature, or more specifically reading books with better than average word usage, narrative structure, and sentence structure, grows your verbal intelligence. Growing your verbal intelligence, as it implies, makes you permanently smarter. The words available to you create your mental map of reality and thus improve your problem solving ability. It expands your perception of the world.

That's fantastic reason to casually read intelligent material you enjoy, not to painstakingly memorize details of old literature you couldn't give two shits about. Heartiste's blog, notwithstanding the KKK material he's been emphasizing lately, has enriched me more than every book I've ever read combined. I was the Sparknotes kid in high school and have hardly read any fictional literature since; I still believe I'm pretty articulate.

The internet is changing everything. Before the internet age, we definitely needed formal education to this end. Not only is blogging, etc. replacing the need to study literature in school, but also politics, history, philosophy, economics, etc. Even MIT makes all their course materials available online for free.

Literature still has value, because literature is art. Why read literature, why not just read whatever the fuck you feel like... why listen to classical music, study sculpture or painting, etc. It's part of being a well-rounded human. Though just because it needs to be studied, doesn't mean we necessarily need academia.

Post: #40

Yes with a caveat.

I was homeschooled early on with a very classical education. While there was some pro church bias this education included some basic Latin, an extensive reading od classical texts(the whole things, not excerpts), a healthy dose of redpill history, and math/scienxr classes about four levels above my "grade"( Algebr 2 completed at 13 years old).

Having that early prep meant that I was acutely aware of how shitty public and private education is. It's one thing to know more than your classmated but something else entirely when your correcting the textbook the teacher is using.


Also note that there is no"epiphany" or higher consciousness involved. The main benefit of being highly educated in classic liberal arts is that you become very good at spotting bullshit....e.g people forget that socialists have killed many more jews than Hitler did.

Post: #41

My upbringing was a solid one in my opinion ,
Lower middle class with a very smart father and a hard headed mother. It was easy to see the difference in my two parents and see which ones was smarter. As time continued so did there results, There still together but my dads manager of close to 100 employees and my mom still runs a small business just as she did 14 years ago. I've learned alot from my dad however there are good quality in my mother that I respect also.

The only lack of education I was brought up on was condoms . Its a shame like I had natural instincts in high school and getting girls naked was easy. Just I never sleep with none of them because my dad put the fear of teenage pregnancy into me(just fingerfucked and bjs ). I was never taught how to put on or where to buy a condom. I thought growing up that I had to be over 18 to buy it.....

Post: #42

(04-17-2016 08:41 PM)Delta Wrote:  @TooFineAPoint-

School cannot give one the patience to read Moby Dick. All school does is tell you to read 30 pages a night when you have a million other things you'd rather be doing, then make sure you know what happened in those pages, wielding grades to reward you for knowing and penalize you for not knowing. It feels so pointless at the time. And being an adult now, I still feel like it was pointless. No epiphany or enlightenment comes of being forcefed something you're not into. 0% of my "pizzaz and savor of living" is derived from things I studied in grade school.

You know what class from high school I still call upon to this day and am really glad I took? Typing. Was I super into typing at the time? No. But that's the beauty of menial, practical classes; you don't need to have a passion for them to get something useful out of them. These are the things best suited to a classroom environment.

Of course it's important for society to have deep, critical thinkers. But school is the last place in the world I'd realistically expect such minds to be developed.

Absolutely agree with you.

Please don't imagine I was saying that school is the place to enjoy reading Moby Dick.

I think I misunderstood; I read it as a list of things worth learning vs something not worth learning. You meant it in the context of classroom learning only. Fair play.

Post: #43

My education sucked arse. Still managed to get into Med school but that was mainly because I was aware that most teachers don't give a damn about their students. This public school taught us for the exam and not how to learn. Now I'm 25 and remember the day I passed my exit exam thinking, " now my education begins." It's funny. After graduation, a lot of my boys lost their hunger and seem helpless. It's as if they're waiting for someone to give them direction- a syllabus. It seems - to me at least- that a lot of people learn only to earn money. To hell with curiosity and mental discipline.

TDK

Post: #44

I would say I had a piss poor education.

I've mentioned this in another thread but a big reason for the low standard of education is the credentialing process most teachers have to go through. In order for teachers to be board certified they need to spend 1-2 years in teacher's college. This creates a self-selecting process where only mediocre people who lack talent and lack ambition will pursue teaching as a job.

If I had a say in this I would completely scrap the credentialing process and instead put more weight on real world industry experience. Very few, if any, of the people teaching high school level physics, chemistry, computer science have ever worked in the engineering field or in the IT sector. None of them have ever produced anything, or gotten their hands dirty doing real work. I think we need to give students some credit, they know that their teachers are talentless hacks and they quickly learn to tune them out. In fact, my senior year physics teacher admitted in one of his classes that he barely passed first year calculus.

In elementary school the situation is even worse - teachers with a social science and humanities background are tasked with introducing the next generation to critical thinking, science, arithmetic, and other technical skills. This is just a complete recipe for disaster.

The problem with the education system isn't a lack of funding. The rot goes far deeper. If you just increase funding to education, the current crop of teachers will just squander it on useless shit, worthless new textbooks, give more arts & crafts assignments to their students, and not to mention a hefty raise for themselves which they no doubt feel they deserve.

Post: #45

I want my 17 years back that was wasted in school.

One of the main reason I dont want kids because I dont want them to go through that hell called "school".

Post: #46

The point of education is to learn how to learn and develop a love for learning. In other words, an ideal college graduate should be able to, within a reasonable time frame and given adequate resources, be able to pick up almost any subject. Our education system in the U.S. does not instill this in us. I went to a top public school in my state and have a degree in a hard science, and I feel like I got stupider between the ages of 16-21. High school AP English classes killed my love of reading, which I'm slowly redeveloping now. College taught me nothing except that I am very good at pulling all nighters without going to class to get adequate scores on exams.

I have goals and ambitions in my life, and I realize I've never been taught the skills needed to actually realize these goals. In other words, discipline, perseverance, and organization. Instead we are encouraged to memorize a bunch of facts for a test that we forget immediately afterwards. I'm not complaining about it, instead I'm slowly working on unwinding these shit habits I've developed as a result of my environment and never knowing any better.

That said, my goal is to have my future kids entirely home schooled.

Post: #47

Perhaps I'm biased, but I believe a wonderful education matters tremendously, possibly more than anything else will in your life. How your mind is shaped, and the people it is exposed to in those highly formative years, has an incredible impact on your ability to think, learn, and understand the world around you. Some people, through sheer weight of intelligence, are able to overcome the disadvantages of poor, or even moderate schooling, and excel despite those challenges. I think many people here on this forum are excellent examples of that, and it makes the spirit soar to see so many people who have not succumbed to the mental stagnation that most schooling encourages. However, exceptionally intelligent children, placed in an environment where the other children are also rigorously selected for their rare natural intelligence and exposed exclusively to brilliant adult minds, excel beyond all meaningful comparison with their peers - even those who have had good schooling. Those children who leave aged 18 and kick on from there with rigorous academic pursuits are simply too far ahead to be caught up by their direct peers.

The opportunities such a child has had simply can't be replicated. As bright as any one person may be, it cannot compensate for the sustained and sincere effect of many mature and brilliant minds acting on an already talented student. A remarkable child, if left alone to educate himself, may well do better than he otherwise would have had he been exposed to the dull and corrosive minds of average teachers, and over time may well become an exceptional man. However, there is a particular energy inherent in bright minds that craves interest and understanding; and like all energies it is best served by correct direction and specific, targeted application. This is what a truly exceptional education does. You can only think it doesn't matter if you've never had it.

Post: #48

Horrific education. The teachers I had through middle school and high school were worse than hot garbage. I honestly can't think of one teacher I had that was any decent at all. I ended up feeling patronized as fuck for having to listen to people that I knew were complete dipshits. This lead to me having a fuck it attitude and I eventually stopped doing any homework and dropped out of highschool at 16. Disillusioned by highschool and the retards that were in it caused me to make even more bad decisions like not getting my GED until I was about 22-23, thinking I could live without it. Luckily I've always been a self learner and have turned my life into some success. There are maybe a handful of successful people from my highschool. Everyone else is working for less than 15$ an hour.

I absolutely loathe public school, and if I ever have a kid, they'll never step foot inside one. Private school or homeschooling.

Take a look at this school and compare it to any shitty public school in this country. The cost is worth it in my opinion.

http://www.aa.edu/page

Post: #49

I believe it was Mark Twain that said "I never let my schooling interfere with my education."

I wish I had taken that route.