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The Old Testament thread
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infowarrior1 Offline
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RE: The Old Testament thread
(05-22-2015 10:04 PM)memcpy Wrote:  
(05-22-2015 09:28 PM)Zelcorpion Wrote:  Frankly the God of the Old Testament resembles Satan of the New Testament.

The jump in consciousness is so stark to what Jesus taught or Paul who created the church later on, that one would wonder what the two books had in common at all - except a joint origin.

They should literally not be mentioned together at all.

Christ and God were together in the Old Testament and it was Christ who spoke to Abraham, then later to Moses to for the Ten Commandments.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made" (John 1:1–3).

"Word" is "logos" in Greek and has a different meaning.

The Greek word for spokesman is Logos. Jesus was the Logos of God.

A better translation might be:

"In the beginning was the spokesman, and the spokesman was with God, and the spokesman was a god."
Quote:Jesus, as God's Word and Wisdom, was and is eternally an attribute of God the Father.

Just as our own words and thoughts come from us and cannot be separated from us, so it is that Jesus cannot be completely separate from the Father. But there is more to this explanation that is related to the distinction between functional subordination and ontological equality.

We speak of Christ as the "Word" of God, God's "speech" in living form. In Hebrew and Ancient Near Eastern thought, words were not merely sounds, or letters on a page; words were things that "had an independent existence and which actually did things."

Throughout the Old Testament and in the Jewish intertestamental Wisdom literature, the power of God's spoken word is emphasized (Ps. 33:6, 107:20; Is. 55:11; Jer. 23:29; 2 Esd. 6:38; Wisdom 9:1). "Judaism understood God's Word to have almost autonomous powers and substance once spoken; to be, in fact, 'a concrete reality, a veritable cause.'" (Richard N. Longenecker, The Christology of Early Jewish Christianity , 145.)

But a word did not need to be uttered or written to be alive. A word was defined as "an articulate unit of thought, capable of intelligible utterance." (C. H. Dodd, Interpretation of the Fourth Gospel, 263. It cannot therefore be argued that Christ attained existence as the Word only "after" he was "uttered" by God. Some of the second-century church apologists followed a similar line of thinking, supposing that Christ the Word was unrealized potential within the mind of the Father prior to Creation.)

This agrees with Christ's identity as God's living Word, and points to Christ's functional subordination (just as our words and speech are subordinate to ourselves) and his ontological equality (just as our words represent our authority and our essential nature) with the Father. A subordination in roles is within acceptable Biblical and creedal parameters, but a subordination in position or essence (the "ontological" aspect) is a heretical view called subordinationism.

It is not sufficient to object that because Jesus is a person, he cannot be an "attribute" of the Father. Personhood is not incompatible with being an attribute of another person. Moreover, we should not presume that our inability as humans to have a personal attribute also means that God cannot have one.

A good article about the reason Christ was called the Logos.

http://www.tektonics.org/jesusclaims/trinitydefense.php
06-07-2015 12:08 AM
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Messages In This Thread
The Old Testament thread - Roosh - 05-20-2015, 10:46 AM
RE: The Old Testament thread - kbell - 05-20-2015, 11:13 AM
RE: The Old Testament thread - MMM - 05-20-2015, 12:26 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - seneca - 05-20-2015, 12:47 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - h3ltrsk3ltr - 05-20-2015, 12:56 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - h3ltrsk3ltr - 05-20-2015, 06:06 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - N°6 - 05-20-2015, 02:46 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - Atlantic - 05-20-2015, 03:31 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - alexdagr81 - 05-20-2015, 05:45 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - lskdfjldsf - 05-20-2015, 07:13 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - memcpy - 05-20-2015, 11:06 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - RawGod - 05-21-2015, 06:50 AM
RE: The Old Testament thread - SunW - 05-21-2015, 10:31 AM
RE: The Old Testament thread - Socrates - 05-21-2015, 01:22 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - heavy - 05-21-2015, 02:15 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - SunW - 05-21-2015, 02:36 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - Teedub - 05-21-2015, 04:05 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - Dr. Howard - 05-21-2015, 04:30 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - Roosh - 05-21-2015, 04:31 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - RockHard - 05-22-2015, 07:29 AM
RE: The Old Testament thread - memcpy - 05-22-2015, 10:04 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - infowarrior1 - 06-07-2015 12:08 AM
RE: The Old Testament thread - Atlantic - 05-22-2015, 10:23 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - memcpy - 05-22-2015, 11:44 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - Samseau - 05-23-2015, 01:02 AM
RE: The Old Testament thread - Samseau - 05-23-2015, 01:04 AM
RE: The Old Testament thread - Sooth - 05-22-2015, 10:43 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - h3ltrsk3ltr - 05-23-2015, 11:26 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - N°6 - 05-24-2015, 05:02 AM
RE: The Old Testament thread - Roosh - 05-24-2015, 12:05 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - ricroc - 05-24-2015, 01:28 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - Mage - 05-25-2015, 05:52 AM
RE: The Old Testament thread - raliv - 05-26-2015, 11:03 AM
RE: The Old Testament thread - SunW - 05-26-2015, 03:17 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - didaskalos - 06-05-2015, 07:21 AM
RE: The Old Testament thread - N°6 - 06-22-2015, 11:42 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - kbell - 06-26-2015, 07:45 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - Ambicatus - 06-28-2015, 03:17 AM
RE: The Old Testament thread - Roosh - 07-03-2015, 06:07 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - Samseau - 07-03-2015, 06:21 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - SunW - 07-04-2015, 08:47 AM
RE: The Old Testament thread - Socrates - 07-06-2015, 04:55 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - scorpion - 04-22-2016, 08:19 AM
RE: The Old Testament thread - Roosh - 07-03-2015, 07:03 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - N°6 - 07-04-2015, 01:08 AM
RE: The Old Testament thread - SunW - 07-04-2015, 08:23 AM
RE: The Old Testament thread - N°6 - 07-04-2015, 09:11 AM
The Old Testament thread - SunW - 07-04-2015, 04:31 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - Samseau - 07-04-2015, 10:54 AM
RE: The Old Testament thread - Lumbre - 07-03-2015, 07:49 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - johhny - 07-04-2015, 10:44 AM
RE: The Old Testament thread - Samseau - 07-04-2015, 11:48 AM
RE: The Old Testament thread - Sherman - 07-03-2015, 10:42 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - N°6 - 07-04-2015, 01:26 AM
RE: The Old Testament thread - Ambicatus - 07-04-2015, 04:26 AM
RE: The Old Testament thread - Lumbre - 07-04-2015, 05:57 AM
RE: The Old Testament thread - Ambicatus - 07-04-2015, 06:45 AM
RE: The Old Testament thread - Lumbre - 07-04-2015, 08:18 AM
RE: The Old Testament thread - Lumbre - 07-04-2015, 08:42 AM
RE: The Old Testament thread - SunW - 07-04-2015, 08:57 AM
RE: The Old Testament thread - Lumbre - 07-04-2015, 11:48 AM
RE: The Old Testament thread - Lumbre - 07-04-2015, 12:07 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - Lumbre - 07-04-2015, 12:22 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - Samseau - 07-04-2015, 01:21 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - Lumbre - 07-04-2015, 03:30 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - Lumbre - 07-05-2015, 05:58 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - Samseau - 07-05-2015, 07:05 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - Phoenix - 07-05-2015, 07:12 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - Samseau - 07-05-2015, 08:39 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - johhny - 07-05-2015, 09:24 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - johhny - 07-05-2015, 08:31 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - johhny - 07-05-2015, 08:55 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - scorpion - 07-06-2015, 03:43 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - Paracelsus - 07-14-2015, 02:31 AM
RE: The Old Testament thread - Roosh - 07-14-2015, 01:18 AM
RE: The Old Testament thread - JDog212 - 04-23-2016, 01:06 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - SirTimothy - 04-23-2016, 01:51 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - N°6 - 08-12-2019, 01:14 AM
RE: The Old Testament thread - Wutang - 10-29-2015, 10:26 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - Wutang - 10-30-2015, 01:27 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - Ambicatus - 11-09-2015, 01:24 AM
RE: The Old Testament thread - Wutang - 11-09-2015, 05:47 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - Roosh - 04-19-2016, 04:31 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - debeguiled - 04-19-2016, 04:59 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - Clockwerk - 04-19-2016, 10:32 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - Helaman - 04-20-2016, 10:06 AM
RE: The Old Testament thread - Samseau - 04-20-2016, 04:57 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - syrianguy - 04-22-2016, 02:08 AM
RE: The Old Testament thread - TheMost - 04-23-2016, 08:43 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - Kid Twist - 05-02-2016, 02:07 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - da_zeb - 05-11-2016, 05:11 AM
RE: The Old Testament thread - Kid Twist - 05-03-2016, 12:54 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - Orion - 05-08-2016, 06:57 AM
RE: The Old Testament thread - scrambled - 05-09-2016, 02:42 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - da_zeb - 05-11-2016, 06:47 AM
RE: The Old Testament thread - Kid Twist - 05-03-2016, 01:00 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - Kid Twist - 05-09-2016, 09:24 AM
RE: The Old Testament thread - Kid Twist - 05-11-2016, 08:47 AM
RE: The Old Testament thread - dnx - 08-06-2016, 04:35 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - Garuda - 07-09-2019, 12:50 AM
RE: The Old Testament thread - HB2 - 07-12-2019, 06:17 AM
RE: The Old Testament thread - N°6 - 08-12-2019, 01:01 AM
The Old Testament Thread - Truth Teller - 06-22-2015, 05:16 PM

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