Read The Forum Rules: We have a clear set of rules to keep the forum running smoothly. Click here to review them.

Post Reply 
The Old Testament thread
Author Message
Truth Teller Offline
Ostrich
****

Posts: 1,821
Joined: Dec 2013
Reputation: 15
Post: #102
RE: The Old Testament thread
(07-05-2015 05:58 PM)Lumbre Wrote:  As I've already explained succintly, the Unmoved Mover of the ancient Pagan world is nothing like the highly interventionalist biblical god Yahweh in that he is merely an intelligent designer of nature who set everything into motion and doesn't involve himself in the affairs of the world. There is no election of a chosen people, no commandments for a certain group to invade or massacre foreign nations, no concept of a fall and no plan of salvation. Those are all purely abrahamic concepts and couldn't be any further from the classical concept of the Prime Move /First Cause. Just because some medieval Christian philosophers attempted to blend or conflate biblical theology with the classical European philosophical concept of the Unmoved Mover doesn't mean that the two concepts are the same thing. The truth is that they couldn't be anymore disimilar.

And you would be very, very wrong. The distinction between the Unmoved Mover and the Christian God does not exist. Aquinas is very convincing on this point.

Quote:In fact, it is generally understood in biblical scholarship that Yahweh was once one god among many, the preferred deity of the Hebrew people, and that it was only much later that he was afforded the status of sole creator god. Early (pre-exilic) manuscripts of Deuteronomy such as the Song of Moses indicate that Yahweh, the Hebrew god, was originally one of 70 gods or Elohim (plural) and possibly a second-tier junior deity, one of the many deities who received an earthly inheritance from the then highest deity Elyon who was once a separate and distinct god. Later in the exilic period, the Hebrew priesthood adopted an ideology of strict monotheism, began to edit out the numerous pre-existing polytheistic references and rewrite history for their own ideological motives. In other words, the monotheistic Bible was actually a late Hebrew con-job/falsification whose motive was to raise their own tribal deity to the level of universal creator and justify their own fantasy of being the one-and-only "Chosen People" of that now promoted "king of the whole universe". So this created being El-Yahweh is lifted up to the status of Unmoved Mover on the whim of his priesthood.

You don't need to educate me in Biblical scholarship. I know more about it than 99.9% of people, and I'm considering a graduate degree in it. Elohim can be singular or plural, and knowing what we know about Deuteronomy, your claim is very questionable. There are no pre-exilic manuscripts in existence. Josiah's priests wrote Deuteronomy, as we have reason to believe. Josiah also had a monotheistic (or henotheistic) program. He would not have sanctioned the creation of a book that suggested YHWH as anything but the high god. The ancient Israelites were, as I suggested on page 3, henotheistic. They may have been polytheists, but that's questionable. We have some evidence suggesting henotheism, and not a lot suggesting polytheism.

The transfer from henotheism to strict monotheism has a lot to do with the exile, but that's beyond the scope of my reply.
Quote:You accept that the Pagan religions are much older. Good. Now one may logically ask: If all those more ancient and primordial Pagan cultures had similar mythological narratives and said pretty much similar things, then why should anybody believe this one later anomalous and reactionary Hebrew version of theology and history to be true? Logically there is no reason to believe that the many diverse polytheistic/pantheistic Pagan cultures (Sumerians, Akkadians, Babylonians, Hittites, Egyptians, Canaanites, Greeks, Hindus and earlier Indo-Europeans) were all wrong and that only the much later Hebrew religion was right. The only reason that Christians can give is simply because they want to believe it that way and it is evident that they already have a strong emotional investment in their own belief system. Any reasonable person would be curious and wish to look into all the earlier Pagan traditions and philosophies, but it is clear that most Christians only close their minds to one particular system and become hellbent on slandering and attacking all other religions.

Untrue. Logically, there are very good reasons to suppose that Thor/Zeus/Odin/Prometheus do not exist. All of them are crude, anthropomorphic deities who exist inside time, space, etc. They all have cosmogonies, or births. They all have very human emotions and desires (i.e. Zeus railing a variety of Greek women). These gods are also used to plug the holes in human and scientific ignorance. They are what is often called the "God of the Gaps." Once you figure out how lightning works, you don't need to invoke Thor or Zeus. On the other hand, the Judeo-Christian God creates in an orderly fashion and acts through the creation. There's no use of God (at least among philosophically and scientifically literate believers) as a stop gap for our scientific ignorance.

Quote:Christianity had to resort to violence in order to establish itself. That is because in it there was no worthy truth. Christian churches and mobs took it upon themselves to slay rival religious groups such as the Gnostics and destroy Pagan libraries and manuscripts be fire. They had to destroy all that stood in their way to keep their falsehood alive.

The Gnostics may have risen as a reaction to Christianity or may have been a completely separate group that then ended up somehow co-opting Christianity. Scholars differ. The destruction of pagan libraries is a historically questionable point at best.

Quote:I studied the Bible and the Apocrypha for years, first as a believing Christian and then as a deconverted non-Christian. I have beheld the subject from both sides. I do not look to debunk the biblical worldview for some secular agenda like New Age author Archarya S with whom you compare me for some strange reason (kneejerk defensive emotional reaction), I simply read the biblical stories as they are and call a spade a spade.

I've studied them as well, and I can read the original Hebrew. I'm learning the Greek now. I was not born a Christian, and I was an agnostic until about 18 or so months ago. You and Acharya seem to argue in a very similar way, with the notable exception that you haven't claimed that Jesus never existed. So you're about 1 billion steps ahead of her.


Quote:When I read in Yahweh's people's own words that Yahweh ordered the Israelites to ransack a rival town and brutally slaughter defenseless women and children, I believe what it says. When I read that Yahweh incites horrific genocides against other nations, I accept the text at face value. When I read that Yahweh enjoys the aroma of the burning flesh of sacrificed animals and commands his people to immolate and burn multitudes of living creatures on his blood-drenched altars, I believe what I am reading. I draw my conclusions on the sickening immorality of the biblical god based on the clear and objective information that the Bible itself gives its readers. When the New Testament scriptures say that the Nazarene's brutal execution on the cross was an ultimate blood sacrifice for people's sins, a sacrifice to end all previous sacrifies, I simply hear what the doctrine is saying and conclude that by its own admission the most basic foundation of the Christian religion is a celebration of the sacrifice of a sentient being who had to shed his blood for the appeasement of the biblical god. I just ready what the Bible itself says about its god!

Because you read with wooden literalism. Your comments above make it obvious. The issue is that the Bible is not supposed to be read in such a literal way, and until Martin Luther, literalism was pretty much non-existent. You're committing the sin of presentism as well.

Quote:So that is why I can only conclude that the biblical religion and its god are immoral and evil. As a moral and sensitive being, I cannot accept such obscene wickedness and perversion. I cannot follow such religion. It is really that simple. The Bible shows Yahweh to be cruel, evil, perverse, warlike, psychopathic, bloodthirsty and genocidal, so I accept that description as it is and realize that I must distance myself as far as possible from that psychotic and perverted belief system. I don't try to make every possible excuse for the evil actions of Yahweh as Christians do, I simply look at the objective reality and accept that Yahweh is evil as the Bible makes it abundantly clear. I have no hidden agenda or anything like that; I just let the Bible do the talking and just accept things as they are.

Wooden literalism and poor understanding of context.

Quote:Most human beings know instinctively that killing and steeling are wrong from an early stage of their development. Such morality is innate. Only mentally sick people like psychopaths don't understand such basic ethical values and it seems that such psychopathic people were the ones who wrote the incredibly twisted and bloodcurdling Hebrew Bible.

Wooden literalism and tearing it out of context again.

Christianity is completely useless. It is a really shitty and pathetic way of viewing the world. It is a doctrine which teaches that the follower must submit to its sacrificed savior Jesus and accept his bloody sacrifice on the cross in order to be free of the sin of a supposed fallen world, a pathetic and miserable cult of bloodshed for exoneration. That is just so lowly and obscene.[/quote]

Submit? Hardly. Look at my signature. Again, you seem to see Christianity as a moralistic, therapeutic form of deism. That's what the huge majority of so-called "Christianity" teaches today, and they wonder why people find the message unappealing.

Quote:When I speak of Yoguic practices and meditation, I mean full-blown occultism. I mean working with the Kundalini serpent energy within, I mean tantric practices, I mean raising that serpent up through the spine and up to the crown, I mean awakening the dormant occult faculties of the mind and unlocking psychic abilities (Siddhis in yoguic terms). I mean the very practices that people like you would call "satanic". If we were in medieval Italy, you and your people would want to burn me at the stake like your religion did to Giordiano Bruno.

I would certainly call those practices mystical. Others would likely call them Satanic, but I'm not qualified to decide on that either way. Bruno was burned for several reasons, some of which had to do with his really odd mysticism, and some of which had to do with his denial of certain doctrines.

Quote:Upon researching the ancient mythologies, I noticed that there are two opposed mythological divine factions: One that wishes for the enlightenment of mankind (the Serpent Enki-Prometheus and his Pagan gods, the "angels" who revealed divine knowledge to mankind during the antediluvian Golden Age/Satya Yuga) and another that only wishes to impose upon humanity a policy of obscurantism and brutality (Yahweh and his "angels").

I find that to be a very rough dichotomy. Much of the so-called "obscurantism and brutality" inspired modern science. The idea that God had created in an orderly fashion was inspired some of the founders of modern science. As Merton (and C.S. Lewis) put it, men became scientific because they expected laws in nature. Why did they expect law? Because they believed in a law giver.

"For you yourselves are aware that the Day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night" (1 Thess. 5:2)
07-06-2015 12:07 AM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[-] The following 8 users Like Truth Teller's post:
Samseau, Bear Hands, gosh, Wutang, MiscBrah, Ambicatus, Seth_Rose, infowarrior1
Post Reply 


Messages In This Thread
The Old Testament thread - Roosh - 05-20-2015, 10:46 AM
RE: The Old Testament thread - kbell - 05-20-2015, 11:13 AM
RE: The Old Testament thread - MMM - 05-20-2015, 12:26 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - seneca - 05-20-2015, 12:47 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - h3ltrsk3ltr - 05-20-2015, 12:56 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - h3ltrsk3ltr - 05-20-2015, 06:06 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - N°6 - 05-20-2015, 02:46 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - Atlantic - 05-20-2015, 03:31 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - alexdagr81 - 05-20-2015, 05:45 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - lskdfjldsf - 05-20-2015, 07:13 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - memcpy - 05-20-2015, 11:06 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - RawGod - 05-21-2015, 06:50 AM
RE: The Old Testament thread - SunW - 05-21-2015, 10:31 AM
RE: The Old Testament thread - Socrates - 05-21-2015, 01:22 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - heavy - 05-21-2015, 02:15 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - SunW - 05-21-2015, 02:36 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - Teedub - 05-21-2015, 04:05 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - Dr. Howard - 05-21-2015, 04:30 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - Roosh - 05-21-2015, 04:31 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - RockHard - 05-22-2015, 07:29 AM
RE: The Old Testament thread - memcpy - 05-22-2015, 10:04 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - Atlantic - 05-22-2015, 10:23 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - memcpy - 05-22-2015, 11:44 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - Samseau - 05-23-2015, 01:02 AM
RE: The Old Testament thread - Samseau - 05-23-2015, 01:04 AM
RE: The Old Testament thread - Sooth - 05-22-2015, 10:43 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - h3ltrsk3ltr - 05-23-2015, 11:26 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - N°6 - 05-24-2015, 05:02 AM
RE: The Old Testament thread - Roosh - 05-24-2015, 12:05 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - ricroc - 05-24-2015, 01:28 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - Mage - 05-25-2015, 05:52 AM
RE: The Old Testament thread - raliv - 05-26-2015, 11:03 AM
RE: The Old Testament thread - SunW - 05-26-2015, 03:17 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - didaskalos - 06-05-2015, 07:21 AM
RE: The Old Testament thread - N°6 - 06-22-2015, 11:42 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - kbell - 06-26-2015, 07:45 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - Ambicatus - 06-28-2015, 03:17 AM
RE: The Old Testament thread - Roosh - 07-03-2015, 06:07 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - Samseau - 07-03-2015, 06:21 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - SunW - 07-04-2015, 08:47 AM
RE: The Old Testament thread - Socrates - 07-06-2015, 04:55 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - scorpion - 04-22-2016, 08:19 AM
RE: The Old Testament thread - Roosh - 07-03-2015, 07:03 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - N°6 - 07-04-2015, 01:08 AM
RE: The Old Testament thread - SunW - 07-04-2015, 08:23 AM
RE: The Old Testament thread - N°6 - 07-04-2015, 09:11 AM
The Old Testament thread - SunW - 07-04-2015, 04:31 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - Samseau - 07-04-2015, 10:54 AM
RE: The Old Testament thread - Lumbre - 07-03-2015, 07:49 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - johhny - 07-04-2015, 10:44 AM
RE: The Old Testament thread - Samseau - 07-04-2015, 11:48 AM
RE: The Old Testament thread - Sherman - 07-03-2015, 10:42 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - N°6 - 07-04-2015, 01:26 AM
RE: The Old Testament thread - Ambicatus - 07-04-2015, 04:26 AM
RE: The Old Testament thread - Lumbre - 07-04-2015, 05:57 AM
RE: The Old Testament thread - Ambicatus - 07-04-2015, 06:45 AM
RE: The Old Testament thread - Lumbre - 07-04-2015, 08:18 AM
RE: The Old Testament thread - Lumbre - 07-04-2015, 08:42 AM
RE: The Old Testament thread - SunW - 07-04-2015, 08:57 AM
RE: The Old Testament thread - Lumbre - 07-04-2015, 11:48 AM
RE: The Old Testament thread - Lumbre - 07-04-2015, 12:07 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - Lumbre - 07-04-2015, 12:22 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - Samseau - 07-04-2015, 01:21 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - Lumbre - 07-04-2015, 03:30 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - Lumbre - 07-05-2015, 05:58 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - Truth Teller - 07-06-2015 12:07 AM
RE: The Old Testament thread - Samseau - 07-05-2015, 07:05 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - Phoenix - 07-05-2015, 07:12 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - Samseau - 07-05-2015, 08:39 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - johhny - 07-05-2015, 09:24 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - johhny - 07-05-2015, 08:31 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - johhny - 07-05-2015, 08:55 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - scorpion - 07-06-2015, 03:43 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - Paracelsus - 07-14-2015, 02:31 AM
RE: The Old Testament thread - Roosh - 07-14-2015, 01:18 AM
RE: The Old Testament thread - JDog212 - 04-23-2016, 01:06 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - SirTimothy - 04-23-2016, 01:51 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - N°6 - 08-12-2019, 01:14 AM
RE: The Old Testament thread - Wutang - 10-29-2015, 10:26 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - Wutang - 10-30-2015, 01:27 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - Ambicatus - 11-09-2015, 01:24 AM
RE: The Old Testament thread - Wutang - 11-09-2015, 05:47 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - Roosh - 04-19-2016, 04:31 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - debeguiled - 04-19-2016, 04:59 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - Clockwerk - 04-19-2016, 10:32 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - Helaman - 04-20-2016, 10:06 AM
RE: The Old Testament thread - Samseau - 04-20-2016, 04:57 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - syrianguy - 04-22-2016, 02:08 AM
RE: The Old Testament thread - TheMost - 04-23-2016, 08:43 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - Kid Twist - 05-02-2016, 02:07 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - da_zeb - 05-11-2016, 05:11 AM
RE: The Old Testament thread - Kid Twist - 05-03-2016, 12:54 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - Orion - 05-08-2016, 06:57 AM
RE: The Old Testament thread - scrambled - 05-09-2016, 02:42 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - da_zeb - 05-11-2016, 06:47 AM
RE: The Old Testament thread - Kid Twist - 05-03-2016, 01:00 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - Kid Twist - 05-09-2016, 09:24 AM
RE: The Old Testament thread - Kid Twist - 05-11-2016, 08:47 AM
RE: The Old Testament thread - dnx - 08-06-2016, 04:35 PM
RE: The Old Testament thread - Garuda - 07-09-2019, 12:50 AM
RE: The Old Testament thread - HB2 - 07-12-2019, 06:17 AM
RE: The Old Testament thread - N°6 - 08-12-2019, 01:01 AM
The Old Testament Thread - Truth Teller - 06-22-2015, 05:16 PM

Forum Jump:


User(s) browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)

Contact Us | RooshV.com | Return to Top | Return to Content | Mobile Version | RSS Syndication