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Holocaust fact finding thread
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Gorgiass Offline
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Post: #124
RE: The Holocaust (Holohoax?) Thread
I'm going to steal a page from the denialist playbook and take the quote out of order to set the frame, but this is a good one.

(01-01-2017 10:33 AM)scorpion Wrote:  Unfortunately for your case, we have ever-reliable eyewitness testimony from the Gerstein report that contradicts what you're saying:

Quote:The text which follows is a portion of the Gerstein statement as given in the English translation of Harvest of Hate by Leon Poliakov. Aside from a rather brazen "error" on the part of Poliakov, namely the claim that 700 to 800 bodies were crowded into 93 square meters instead of only 25 square meters (which is the way the original documents actually read) it is probably no worse a translation than any of the other versions which can be found. (fn. 6)

SS men pushed the men into the chambers. "Fill it up," Wirth ordered, 700-800 people in 93 [sic] square meters. The doors closed. Then I understood the reason for the "Heckenholt" sign. Heckenholt was the driver of the Diesel, whose exhaust was to kill these poor unfortunates. SS Unterscharführer Heckenholt tried to start the motor. It wouldn't start! Captain Wirth came up. You could see he was afraid because I was there to see the disaster. Yes, I saw everything and waited. My stopwatch clocked it all: 50 minutes, 70 minutes, and the Diesel still would not start! The men were waiting in the gas chambers. You could hear them weeping "as though in a synagogue," said Professor Pfannenstiel, his eyes glued to the window in the wooden door. Captain Wirth, furious, struck with his whip the Ukrainian who helped Heckenholt - The Diesel started up after 2 hours and 49 minutes, by my stopwatch. Twenty-five minutes passed. You could see through the window that many were already dead, for an electric light illuminated the interior of the room. All were dead after thirty-two minutes! Jewish workers on the other side opened the wooden doors. They had been promised their lives in return for doing this horrible work, plus a small percentage of the money and valuables collected. The men were still standing, like columns of stone, with no room to fall or lean. Even in death you could tell the families, all holding hands. It was difficult to separate them while emptying the room for the next batch. The bodies were tossed out, blue, wet with sweat and urine, the legs smeared with excrement and menstrual blood. (fn. 7)

It was not a peephole through which Prof. Pfannenstiel supposedly looked into the gas chamber-it was a window. And it was a window in a wooden door-not a steel, gas-tight door as one might expect. Apparently, there were wooden doors on two sides of at least one of the gas chambers. We are told that the intended victims were still alive after almost three hours in the gas chambers before the Diesel even started. Surely, there must have been many air leaks into the chambers or else the Jews would have been asphyxiated without the aid of any Diesel.

From here:

The reality is this: if these alleged gas chambers were used at anywhere near the capacity the eyewitness accounts and alleged victim numbers propose, poison gas would not have been necessary at all. These people were allegedly crammed in like sardines with standing room only. The Nazis could have done away entirely with all the logistical, operational and safety problems associated with the use of poison gas. They could have simply sped the asphyxiation process along by pumping inert gas (such as helium or argon) into the chamber. The people inside would be dead within minutes.

Your article deals with a completely different gas methodology, so different as to be nearly irrelevant; clearly however, the very text you quoted indicates that suffocation alone isn't an ideal option, as the Jews survived several hours in the chamber (albeit a non-hermetically sealed one) before the engine started.

However, I'm glad you brought that site to my attention, as I happen to know my way around an engine. Again, several glaring falsehoods jumped out, and on further reading the volume of lies in that single piece is truly staggering - a prime example of the sort of misleading denialist literature I already mentioned. Your article takes 17 pages attempting to explain why diesel exhaust couldn't be used for execution (and therefore the Holocaust couldn't have happened), I will explain in just a few paragraphs why it can.

Ideal burn (stochiometric) ratio for gas and diesel engines is nearly identical, approx 14.5:1, there is no diesel engine which runs at 200:1. A diesel engine is not “nothing more than an unusual kind of blower” it is the original internal combustion engine. Every single phrase like this in that article is designed with an end goal in mind - to set a false frame and deliberately mislead the readership into falling for their lies.

A running engine consumes several hundred cubic feet per minute of ambient air and expels several times this volume in heated exhaust. According to your quote the room was 1883 cubic feet. If the other translation is correct, the room was 7000 sqft. Either way, it's pretty obvious that in virtually no time at all, every bit of ambient air in this room will be displaced by exhaust. At these volumes, as soon as exhaust is vented into this room every air leak becomes an exhaust point in itself and becomes irrelevant, thus the lack of need for hermetic sealing.

But what is diesel exhaust?
[Image: v2n4a3i5.jpg]

Nearly all of your article focuses on CO, this is an attempt at misdirection (more on that later). But what does it say about CO2? (While reading below, note the weasel words and deliberately misleading verbiage - “not really any more” poisonous, “harmless” stimulant, “gradually” increases). Wrote:Carbon dioxide is not really any more poisonous than ordinary water. Wrote:Carbon dioxide can be beneficial and therapeutic. 2-5 It is commonly used in clinical medicine as a harmless stimulant for respiration, for which purpose it is supplied under pressure in cylinders Wrote:Levels of 3% carbon dioxide are quite tolerable for exposures lasting several days. For example, in the 1950s the U.S. Navy experimented with gas mixtures containing 3% carbon dioxide and 15% oxygen Wrote:For Diesel engines, the carbon dioxide level at or near idle is only about 2% and gradually increases to about 12% at full load as shown in Figure 6. A carbon dioxide level of 12% may cause cardiac irregularity and may, therefore, be dangerous for people with weak hearts.

What do Wikipedia, scientists, and health professionals say about CO2?
Quote:Concentrations of 7% to 10% (70,000 to 100,000 ppm) may cause suffocation, even in the presence of sufficient oxygen, manifesting as dizziness, headache, visual and hearing dysfunction, and unconsciousness within a few minutes to an hour.
Quote:The OSHA's maximum safe level is 3% (30,000 ppm); lethal concentration (death in 30 minutes) is 10% (100,000 ppm).

Truly an incredible example of deception, even by denialist standards. But wait - note that all these examples I've given so far have dealt with diesels running above stochiometric. Although IHR tells you that diesels can run up to ratios of 200:1, they don't tell you that they can run well under stochiometric ratios as well, and when they do the lethality of the exhaust gas increases exponentially, including levels of CO they spent 17 pages trying to debunk.

This is what the denialist literature is – shills with no qualms about lying to people about things which could kill them (Oh, I read on that I don't need to open the garage door while I preheat my car if it's a diesel!) as long as they successfully manipulate their reader's opinions, objective truth be damned.

(01-01-2017 10:33 AM)scorpion Wrote:  Mainstream Holocaust scholars (aka non-revisionists) will tell you that the camps liberated by the Americans were NOT "death camps" and did NOT contain gas chambers. So no, those pictures do not show anyone who died from Zyklon B gassing. Those are clearly prisoners who were suffering from starvation and/or Typhus. Also, according to the official Holocaust narrative, prisoners at death camps were led directly off trains into showers and gas chambers. They would not have time to starve and become emaciated as seen in those pictures. The very evidence you present as supposedly showing gas chamber victims shows the exact opposite: these were prisoners who had been at the camps for an extended period of time.

I never claimed anyone in the earlier images did or didn't die from gas, just that those were the conditions greeting liberators. When a man marches hundred of miles in ripped boots, on poor rations, over the bodies of his friends, and arrives at a sight like that with the enemy just over the horizon he doesn't sit down and schedule autopsies and call in CSI to dust for fingerprints. This was war first, a crime scene second

(01-01-2017 10:33 AM)scorpion Wrote:  This is one of those answers that satisfies people on the surface, but which falls apart when you actually think about it. "Oh, they just wore gas masks. Easy." The problem is that there is conflicting testimony regarding the wearing of gas masks. In fact, the most credible "eyewitness" to the gas chambers whose testimony was cited as evidence in the Irving trial by Deborah Lipstadt makes no mention of gas masks worn by Sonderkommados at all:

Quote:Let us begin with van Pelt's omission. In his book van Pelt published some of Olere's more important sketches regarding the structure and operation of the alleged gas chambers, but failed to include one of his most important drawings. It is the painting showing the Sonderkommmandos opening the gas chamber door and pulling the bodies out after a mass gassing. In the painting, the inmates are shirtless, and they are not wearing any gas masks, rubber gloves or protective suits.

Taken from:

Also, a gas mask is not a magical device. They are clumsy, uncomfortable, easy to use improperly, and difficult to wear for long periods of time, especially while engaging in physical labor. The idea that men would just easily put on gas masks then walk into a highly poisonous room and engage in rough physical labor (lifting and carrying hundreds of bodies) for months on end without any difficulty or incident defies belief.

You're attempting to create a straw man, and using rhetorical tools. Note the incredulous phrasing and adjectives to sway readers - “easily” put on a mask, “highly” poisonous (not with a mask), “rough” physical labor (as opposed to gentle?). No one has said it was easy or without risk, but it's certainly no incredible feat to put on a gas mask and drag bodies up some stairs. Neither has anyone said it was without incident – they were disposable slave labor so worker's comp claims weren't a concern. I have worn a gas mask before. It's cumbersome but not much more so than a good P95 respirator. I wore a respirator regularly for several years for work, and I performed plenty of physical labor while wearing it. Not a problem at all, and I had a choice. Regardless, on further reading I also learned that the chambers were power ventilated (and in fact there are existing letters from the manufacturer of Zyklon B detailing ventilation requirements), gas masks were only worn if there was a backup of those awaiting execution.

But this is another interesting link you have here which we should explore. The misdirection is more subtle than the last one but still present throughout, using weasel words and selective phrasing to paint any contradiction between thousands of accounts as something sinister. For example, the image in question, drawn by a survivor with no explanation given as to artistic license -


becomes evidence of a “lie” because an alleged expert, Leuchter, says that they would need full biohazard suits. This expert's theories, it turn out, were the basis for the entire other link you gave, which was one gigantic lie. So who is this Leuchter, aside from a proven liar?

Quote:In 1988 Leuchter was hired by Ernst Zündel, who was being tried in Canada for publishing works of Holocaust denial, to investigate and testify as an expert witness at his trial, for a fee of $30,000.

Quote:Lab manager James Roth testified under oath to the results at the trial. It was only after he got off the stand that Roth learned what the trial was about. In an interview for Morris' film, Roth states that cyanide would have formed an extremely fine layer on the walls, to the depth of one-tenth of a human hair. Leuchter had taken samples of indeterminate thickness (he is seen in Morris' film hammering at the bricks with a rock hammer). Not informed of this, Roth had pulverized the entire samples, thus severely diluting the cyanide-containing layer of each sample with an indeterminate amount of brick, varying for each sample. Roth offers the analogy that the tests were like "analyzing paint on a wall by analyzing the timber that's behind it."[14]
Leuchter did not examine the walls of the gas chambers until 50 years after they had been used; his critics note that it would have been virtually impossible to discover any cyanide at all using his method. In fact, tests conducted on ventilation grates immediately after the end of the war showed substantial amounts of cyanide. The chambers were demolished by the Nazis when they abandoned Auschwitz, and the facilities Leuchter examined were, in fact, partially reconstructed. Leuchter was unaware that part of the camp and chambers were reconstructed, so he had no way of knowing if the bricks he was scraping were actually part of the original gas chamber.
Many of Leuchter's conclusions are based on the assumption that it would take 20 to 30 hours to air a room disinfected with Zyklon-B; since far lower concentrations are required when gassing people than for delousing, it would take only 20 to 30 minutes to air out the room. Therefore, the forced ventilation systems used would be more than adequate to allow the gas chambers to be operated without endangering the executioners. When questioned in court, Leuchter admitted he had not seen a document by the Waffen SS Commandant for construction issued when the gas chambers were constructed, which estimated they had a 24-hour capacity of 4756 people, more than 30 times Leuchter's estimate of 156.
Leuchter's opposition to the possibility of gas chambers rests on the relatively low concentration of cyanide residue measured in his sample of the remains of the gas chambers in Auschwitz, compared to his sample of the "delousing chambers" in which clothes were deloused using the same gas, hydrogen cyanide. However, his report contains the assumption that lower concentrations are required for delousing than to kill humans and other warm blooded creatures; in fact, with their simpler structures and slower metabolisms, insects are more resistant to such gross metabolic poisons than mammals. Both toxicological study and practical experience demonstrate that it takes a much higher concentration of cyanide (16,000 parts per million) to kill insects than to kill humans (300 PPM), as well as an exposure time of many hours rather than only minutes. Leuchter also fails to explain his belief that Zyklon-B was used for delousing, in view of his belief that the product would present technical difficulties in ventilating and decontaminating such as to make it impractical for use in a gas chamber. Nor has he ever explained why such large chambers would be needed for delousing clothes.

I learned about this guy earlier tonight, and spent some time reading about him and others in this book - Deniers of the Holocaust: Who the are, What they do, Why they do it Have you read it? I'm guessing not, but if you're only interested in the truth, as you said, then it would make an eye-opening read.

(01-01-2017 10:33 AM)scorpion Wrote:  What if you're wrong? Have you ever even considered the possibility? What sort of evidence (or more accurately, what lack of evidence) would it take for you to entertain the possibility that the Nazis never employed gas chambers as a means for the mass murder of Jews? Remember, this is a historical inquiry, not a test of religious dogma. If the events actually took place, we should have ample historical evidence to settle the debate one way or another. No sane person questions whether or not the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor on December 7th, 1941. Nor is it illegal to question that fact. There is no question that the event occurred. Yet in the case of the gas chambers, we have no similar evidence despite the massive scale of the operation, and the events are illegal to question. Don't you see something wrong with that picture?

I ask you the same question. How many of your links do I need to factually debunk before you entertain any other possibilities? Crushed testicles and torture was a lie. Your major source for your post above was proven to be lying through their teeth. Your second source relies primarily on a man who was paid $30,000 to gather evidence to exonerate a Holocaust denier who used methods so unscientific my elementary science teacher would be rolling over in her grave. There is overwhelming evidence, it comes down to whether a person want to accept it or let their personal biases lead them astray. Critical thinking doesn't mean only attempting to see the other side of an issue when presented with a mainstream view, it also means considering the mainstream view when presented with an alternate.

For me? My belief requirements are somewhat simpler - I require sources which don't spend 17 straight pages lying to me.

(01-01-2017 09:35 PM)scorpion Wrote:  Rather unfortunate example you chose there....

It turns out many if not most of the famous Nazi atrocity photos were faked.

The "fake" image is not the famous one, the "fake" is the one in NYTM. It was retouched for publication to get rid of the mostly nude man front and center. People were prudes in 1945 - http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.c...amous.html
(This post was last modified: 01-02-2017 02:09 AM by Gorgiass.)
01-02-2017 01:59 AM
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Messages In This Thread
Holocaust fact finding thread - Valentine - 12-31-2016, 01:57 AM
RE: The Holocaust (Holohoax?) Thread - Gorgiass - 01-02-2017 01:59 AM
RE: The Holocaust (Holohoax?) Thread - Sp5 - 01-01-2017, 10:14 PM
RE: The Holocaust (Holohoax?) Thread - Sp5 - 01-02-2017, 04:05 AM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - Delta - 01-02-2017, 12:37 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - Zep - 01-02-2017, 10:21 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - Zep - 01-03-2017, 08:56 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - atlant - 01-03-2017, 12:33 AM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - atlant - 01-03-2017, 01:17 AM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - Kona - 01-03-2017, 03:32 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - Kona - 01-03-2017, 06:10 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - XPQ22 - 01-07-2017, 10:11 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - XPQ22 - 01-07-2017, 10:55 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - Delta - 01-17-2017, 07:25 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - Teedub - 01-17-2017, 02:23 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - amity - 02-20-2017, 11:44 AM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - amity - 03-01-2017, 10:54 AM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - Menace - 04-12-2017, 09:32 AM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - Teedub - 04-12-2017, 02:33 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - amity - 09-01-2017, 01:08 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - Kona - 09-02-2017, 11:06 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - Kona - 09-03-2017, 01:43 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - Zep - 09-03-2017, 01:54 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - amity - 09-03-2017, 12:21 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - Zep - 09-03-2017, 01:35 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - Kona - 09-03-2017, 02:00 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - Laska - 09-05-2017, 06:14 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - Zep - 09-05-2017, 11:43 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - Laska - 09-05-2017, 08:35 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - Laska - 09-05-2017, 09:10 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - Laska - 09-05-2017, 09:21 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - Kona - 09-06-2017, 12:25 AM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - Laska - 09-06-2017, 12:42 AM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - Teedub - 09-06-2017, 12:33 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - Nowak - 09-11-2017, 02:07 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - 911 - 01-28-2018, 05:07 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - Kona - 01-27-2018, 06:20 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - Teedub - 01-29-2018, 12:39 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - Ruslan - 01-29-2018, 04:53 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - rotekz - 04-11-2018, 03:05 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - amity - 04-11-2018, 02:04 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - rotekz - 04-11-2018, 03:20 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - Dusty - 04-12-2018, 07:42 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - Suits - 04-12-2018, 10:56 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - Kona - 04-13-2018, 07:44 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - Kona - 04-14-2018, 07:17 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - rotekz - 04-13-2018, 11:45 AM
RE: Holohoax - blck - 05-24-2018, 02:01 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - Teedub - 04-15-2018, 06:00 AM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - Teedub - 04-15-2018, 01:50 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - Teedub - 04-15-2018, 01:56 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - Kona - 04-15-2018, 03:59 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - Teedub - 04-17-2018, 03:12 AM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - amity - 04-19-2018, 12:55 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - Suits - 05-02-2018, 09:35 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - kamoz - 05-19-2018, 07:52 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - Lika - 05-23-2018, 03:15 AM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - fokker - 05-20-2018, 04:04 AM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - nola - 05-23-2018, 04:22 AM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - rotekz - 07-26-2018, 03:06 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - rotekz - 07-26-2018, 03:55 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - rotekz - 08-02-2018, 01:06 AM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - storm - 10-22-2018, 04:56 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - rotekz - 10-23-2018, 01:34 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - Teedub - 10-24-2018, 01:54 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - Teedub - 10-24-2018, 02:56 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - 911 - 10-25-2018, 10:15 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - rotekz - 10-27-2018, 04:00 AM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - 911 - 10-25-2018, 10:24 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - amity - 11-08-2018, 08:33 AM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - 911 - 11-08-2018, 09:00 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - 911 - 04-06-2019, 04:48 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - 911 - 04-07-2019, 01:11 PM

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