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Holocaust fact finding thread
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TravelerKai Offline
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Post: #333
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread
(09-05-2017 11:43 PM)Fisto Wrote:  
(09-05-2017 11:02 PM)Truth Teller Wrote:  
(09-05-2017 09:12 PM)nomadbrah Wrote:  Note, I pointed out the Wannsee conference protocols in detail here, and TT has not responded. The Wannsee protocols are claimed to be where the nazis planned the Holocaust but few people read it. Then when you actually read it, it's nothing like historians would have you think.

You're getting to a good issue and one that I'd like to discuss. In Holocaust studies (which is a subfield of history), there are two broad camps, called functionalism and intentionalism. Intentionalism supposes that the process was "top down," Hitler gave orders to the SS/SA/Wehrmacht generals, they gave orders down the hierarchy and then the killings started. This was a very popular view between (roughly) 1945 and the 1970s/early 80s. This is where a lot of the question of "was there a specific written order?" comes from, and that's why that question (of specific documentary evidence) was pursued for so long, apparently to no avail.

The other view is that of functionalism, that the process was basically bottom up. So far as I can tell (this is not my subfield; my subfield is something else, actually), this is the majority view today. This view supposes that the process really didn't start with Hitler and the Nazis, it started at the grassroots level, as many anti-Semitic movements have throughout the ages.

Wikipedia is not a good source, but the article is actually decently referenced. If I were forced to classify myself, I'm between the synthetic view and the moderate intentionalist view.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functional...#Synthesis

The Wannsee conference minutes are known to be misleading, as there was a desire to avoid putting references to mass genocide in it.

What primary sources do you want to see? 99% of them are available online.

Two fields of study trying to make a narrative without evidence work is all i'm reading here. "Since there's no evidence of a top down order then let's see if we can make a bottom up narrative work". Then just say "Ze germans were being careful not to note their genocidal plans formally". You can't prove a negative so of course this unprobvable claim is the cornerstone of the reasoning.

Sounds to me like an academic thesis created because it's a slam dunk for getting a Ph.d

Subfields of Holocaust study? Give me a break. This gets more absurd by the minute.

History is like that if you did not know. Because there is simply too much subject matter to research and become a "Subject Matter Expert", people specialize in a particular area(s).

If you meet one, that is not a generalist that teaches grade school, you typically ask them for what area they specialize in. A historian of Japanese history likely is not a subject matter expert on every period. They probably know one or two periods extremely well, with perhaps a general overview of the rest.

There is alot of nuance to this stuff, not because people want to be pretentious assholes, but because the amount of work required to investigate and research can be enormous for what most think is just a small matter.

For example, if you asked me about the California Gold Rush for an overview, I would not really be able to break that down much or not at all. Ask me about Reconstruction or the Antebellum South? Then yes. The time periods are not much different or the same with some overlap, but the two events have tremendous amounts of facts and information within them. For example I know an Alamo historian, who is a beast on all things Alamo. He could not tell you anything about the Mexican Border Wars or what Mexican California was like. I probably know just as much as him about the rest of the war, but nowhere near the same as him on Alamo.

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09-06-2017 02:40 PM
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Messages In This Thread
Holocaust fact finding thread - Valentine - 12-31-2016, 01:57 AM
RE: The Holocaust (Holohoax?) Thread - Sp5 - 01-01-2017, 10:14 PM
RE: The Holocaust (Holohoax?) Thread - Sp5 - 01-02-2017, 04:05 AM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - Delta - 01-02-2017, 12:37 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - Zep - 01-02-2017, 10:21 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - Zep - 01-03-2017, 08:56 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - atlant - 01-03-2017, 12:33 AM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - atlant - 01-03-2017, 01:17 AM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - Kona - 01-03-2017, 03:32 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - Kona - 01-03-2017, 06:10 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - XPQ22 - 01-07-2017, 10:11 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - XPQ22 - 01-07-2017, 10:55 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - Delta - 01-17-2017, 07:25 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - Teedub - 01-17-2017, 02:23 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - amity - 02-20-2017, 11:44 AM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - amity - 03-01-2017, 10:54 AM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - Menace - 04-12-2017, 09:32 AM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - Teedub - 04-12-2017, 02:33 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - amity - 09-01-2017, 01:08 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - Kona - 09-02-2017, 11:06 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - Kona - 09-03-2017, 01:43 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - Zep - 09-03-2017, 01:54 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - amity - 09-03-2017, 12:21 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - Zep - 09-03-2017, 01:35 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - Kona - 09-03-2017, 02:00 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - Laska - 09-05-2017, 06:14 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - Zep - 09-05-2017, 11:43 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - Laska - 09-05-2017, 08:35 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - Laska - 09-05-2017, 09:10 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - TravelerKai - 09-06-2017 02:40 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - Laska - 09-05-2017, 09:21 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - Kona - 09-06-2017, 12:25 AM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - Laska - 09-06-2017, 12:42 AM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - Teedub - 09-06-2017, 12:33 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - Nowak - 09-11-2017, 02:07 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - 911 - 01-28-2018, 05:07 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - Kona - 01-27-2018, 06:20 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - Teedub - 01-29-2018, 12:39 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - Ruslan - 01-29-2018, 04:53 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - rotekz - 04-11-2018, 03:05 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - amity - 04-11-2018, 02:04 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - rotekz - 04-11-2018, 03:20 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - Dusty - 04-12-2018, 07:42 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - Suits - 04-12-2018, 10:56 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - Kona - 04-13-2018, 07:44 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - Kona - 04-14-2018, 07:17 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - rotekz - 04-13-2018, 11:45 AM
RE: Holohoax - blck - 05-24-2018, 02:01 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - Teedub - 04-15-2018, 06:00 AM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - Teedub - 04-15-2018, 01:50 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - Teedub - 04-15-2018, 01:56 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - Kona - 04-15-2018, 03:59 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - Teedub - 04-17-2018, 03:12 AM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - amity - 04-19-2018, 12:55 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - Suits - 05-02-2018, 09:35 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - kamoz - 05-19-2018, 07:52 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - Lika - 05-23-2018, 03:15 AM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - fokker - 05-20-2018, 04:04 AM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - nola - 05-23-2018, 04:22 AM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - rotekz - 07-26-2018, 03:06 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - rotekz - 07-26-2018, 03:55 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - rotekz - 08-02-2018, 01:06 AM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - storm - 10-22-2018, 04:56 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - rotekz - 10-23-2018, 01:34 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - Teedub - 10-24-2018, 01:54 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - Teedub - 10-24-2018, 02:56 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - 911 - 10-25-2018, 10:15 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - rotekz - 10-27-2018, 04:00 AM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - 911 - 10-25-2018, 10:24 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - amity - 11-08-2018, 08:33 AM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - 911 - 11-08-2018, 09:00 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - 911 - 04-06-2019, 04:48 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - 911 - 04-07-2019, 01:11 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - rotekz - 01-27-2020, 04:27 PM
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread - Goni - 01-28-2020, 04:45 AM

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