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Colombia Datasheet (Bogota & Cartagena)
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thegameoflife Offline
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Colombia Datasheet (Bogota & Cartagena)
Yes! Another datasheet for Colombia!

INTRODUCTION

Background: I am in my mid 20s and have been very limited in traveling (Canada, USA, Mexico) so this was a big trip for me. In my previous travels to Montreal/Quebec City I did well getting bangs with limited French so I was confident that the same would be true in Colombia even though I have very very limited Spanish (was I ever wrong haha). I am fairly good looking, over 6 ft tall and have decent game. I have no approach anxiety and am able to engage women in conversation well (provided I can speak the language).

I planned to stay in Bogota for 2 weeks before heading to Cartagena for a week although I was open to splitting up my time in Bogota to see Medellin, Cali etc. if I wanted. The following datasheet contains a lot of information and personal stories mixed in from the trip so it is very long. I hope that it can be useful.

BOGOTA

GENERAL
Airport: As I mentioned in previous threads, I pipelined really hard on ColombianCupid to the point where I had contacts in every major city in Colombia and, more importantly, had a chica offer to meet me at the airport in Bogota. I was very nervous getting off the plane in Bogota and was shocked when I saw that massive crowd of people being restrained by a barrier just outside of the airport.

My ColombianCupid contact was able to find me through the mayhem. We got a cab and were on our way. The dynamic was very strange since I hardly knew this chica but had all trust in her during the infant stages of the trip. She was the first Colombian chica I met and would be my only Colombian bang (more below).

Prices: The three Cs (Cabs, Clothing, Cocaine) area all much cheaper than the comparable prices in North America. Taking cabs in Bogota is great because the cab rides are all metered so there is no negotiation required. I didn't take the Transmilenio (bus) but can't really see a reason to given that cab rides take you directly to your destination and are so cheap. I also purchased a tailored suit for $400 which is unbelievable compared to the prices that we pay in North America.

Women: Contrary to what some people claim, walking around my area (Chapinero) you didn't see hot women everywhere. There were a lot of hipster, metalheads as Scotian has highlighted in his Bogota datasheet here. There were a couple women that were absolutely stunning though. There was an English school across the street from my apartment. One of the managers looked like Catherine Zeta Jones. Due to this lack of targets and my poor Spanish my day game was almost non existent with the exception of hitting on a chica at the front desk. Days were spent plotting out nights and doing sight seeing for the most part.


CLUB AREAS
Zona Rosa: Zona Rosa is THE big club spot in Bogota. Many may argue that it is expensive and filled with Gringos and that you should avoid it. However, it has some great clubs and is the place where the most intellectual (english speaking), hottest women go on the weekends so I think you have to go stop by Zona Rosa at least once if you are in Bogota. The drinks are more expensive (up to 10,000 Colombian Pesos ~ $5.00 USD) than anywhere else in Bogota so be prepared to pay North American prices.

Another great time to head to Zona Rosa is for 'Gringo Tuesdays' at La Villa. The organizers welcome people from all over the world to La Villa and have a 'meet and greet' before the partying really begins. I missed the meet and greet (if I was to do it again I would definitely go as I think this would be a great networking opportunity) but arrived around 10:00pm. There were probably about 80 people in the discotech with 45-50 chicas. My Canadian friend decided to leave early from La Villa but I stayed alone which turned out to be one of my best decisions of the trip. I normally never go to clubs alone so it was a little strange at first but eventually I started chatting with a couple of chicas (6, 7.5) about the club, life in Bogota, life in Canada etc. Their english was very limited so the conversation was slow and frustrating. Then I was introduced to a couple of Colombian guys who spoke great english. They had purchased a bottle and started pouring me drinks. At one point, one of the guys asked me what girl in the club I most wanted to dance with. I pointed out the hottest chica on the dancefloor (9.5) and my new friend went and talked with her dance partner (another local) before I went in. I danced with her all night and had a small make out session before she pulled away and said in Spanish ‘I don’t even know you!’ I attempted to get her to join me and my new Colombian compradres after the club was closing down but her and male escort/dancepartner told me she had to work and to call her. Although I got in touch with her later on in my trip I would never see her again.

I went to La Villa at another point on my trip with my friends on a Saturday. When we arrived in Zona Rosa the place was packed with beautiful women. I have honestly not seen anything like it before. It was so different than taking a walk down Chapinero during the day in that the entire population was between 18-30 years old and more than half were hot chicas dressed very well. We did not plan to hit up La Villa at first but this is where we ended up. My friend knew the chica putting the event on so we were able to get in without paying cover and she was very eager to introduce me to her friends….which was great.

I got a little too hammered on this night and ended up taking an American (yes American ☹) woman home who was just ending her South American tour through Argentina and Brazil. The funniest part was I treated her like absolute shit at the bar but she bought me beer and then got very aggressive and I couldn’t say no. As I blew my load all over her Texas Longhorns tramp stamp I made a personal vow NEVER to sleep with a North American woman again.

Southeast Chapinero (Calle 51 and Septima): There is a pocket of discotechs and lounges in southeast Chapinero that does very well on Fridays in particular. There are a couple of Universities in the area so I was told that on Fridays people start drinking at 4:00pm and keep going all night. The clubs are not as high end as Zona Rosa and the women are not as attractive but there are still some great areas. The top discotech in the area is Saloon. It has a dancefloor that is surrounded by a wide set of stairs that people will dance on. The stairs overlook the dancefloor which makes a great vantage point. I did a great approach that started on the stairs where I identified my target dancing (8), established eye contact and then walked towards her keeping my eyes directly on her. I spoke with her in Spanish introducing myself and where I was from and danced for a while before my Colombian friend gave her further details that I was unable to express. We decided to go to Zona Rosa and leave the girls but I took her number and started walking out. Immediately after stepping outside of the club I heard my name called behind me. The chica had followed us. She grabbed me and pushed me against the wall and started passionately kissing me. After about 10-15 seconds she looked at me in the eyes and said in broken english 'call me' before turning around and going back into the club.

Park 93: This is another collection of higher end clubs/lounges. It is basically a smaller Zona Rosa. I would strongly suggest going to Zona Rosa over this area unless you are looking to go to a specific club.

FINAL THOUGHTS

Bogota is a very cool place. Monserrate and the Gold Museum are world class tourist destinations, there is great nightlife and the city was very safe. I read before going that you should dress down whenever you go out but I did just the opposite (especially when going to Zona Rosa) often wearing my watch, a sport coat etc. It has been said over and over again….if you are smart and don’t put yourself in bad decisions you will be alright.

I was somewhat disappointed I didn’t split my time between Bogota and Medellin but I think it gives me an excuse to go back for another 2 or 3 week trip in the near future after my Spanish is a little more advanced.

CARTAGENA

GENERAL

After my time in Bogota it was time to head north to the beautiful Cartagena. The temperature is noticeably different than Bogota. For my entire stay in Cartagena the temperature was between 25 and 35C. I never saw a cloud in the sky. Unbelievable beaches. Unbelievable architecture. There is a wall around the entire city that was built in the 1500s by the Spanish which is very cool. At night people hang out and partake in some drinking and herb smoking. There are different outdoor lounges all over the wall which are incredible at night (especially if you are into electronic music and herb)

THE BEACH

My second day in Cartagena I convinced an 18 year old from Colombian Cupid to make the trip from Barranquilla down to Cartagena to meet with me. While I was waiting I walked around the old city. Watch out for guys trying to get you to go into their jewelry store. I almost got talked into following a guy who spoke English. When the chica arrived I was surprised to see her with her sister…..and then I thought about the situation a little more and it made perfect sense considering we had never met before.

Her sister went swimming at the beach while I sat under one of the removable shade tents with her. This may have been one of my most entertaining days in Colombia because this girl was beautiful, passionate and showed a lot of interest in me. We practiced Spanish and kissed all day until the sun started going down. Good Times! We went for pizza and she started getting more and more sexual…..at one point grabbing my junk. When I made a move to get her to stay in Cartagena for the night she seemed interested but said she had to leave. I attempted to orchestrate something but my efforts were futile. Her and her sister had to take a taxi to catch the bus back to Barranquilla (or so they told me). This was probably my most frustrating night in Colombia.

I am still keeping in touch with her post trip.

MR. BABILLA

A couple of days later I went to Mr. Babilla…which was the best club I went to in Colombia. It only had three rooms but the atmosphere was amazing. Women were very friendly and approachable (at one point I am 100% sure I was dancing with a prostitute haha), the place had hired professional dancers on the bar and there was the strangest horse costume I have ever seen in my life. The guy had fake legs over an extremely realistic looking horse and he walked around in the same fashion that a slightly scared horse would. He was even able to control the eyes and ears. If someone came up behind him suddenly he would kick like a horse. It was unbelievable.

[b]POST COLOMBIA[/b]

My trip to Colombia has had a significant impact on my game and outlook on life. Although I didn’t get nearly as much action in Colombia as I would have liked I learned a lot and hope that I can return soon with a better knowledge of the culture and language and bang some very hot chicas.

I have had a Colombia hangover since my arrival back in North America. I went to a couple of clubs this past weekend and couldn't help but feel like I was surrounded by complete white trash.

Fairly attractive female friends (that I know through other people but haven't banged) were more friendly than usual and very interested in hearing about my trip. Pre-Colombia I would really like the attention and would make a strong effort to bang them but I feel apathetic and it was quite noticeable. One made the statement 'for someone who has your reputation you sure aren’t trying hard.’ I am uncertain how I would react to such a statement pre trip but I was not too impressed and basically just left.

My first night at a club I actually found myself acting like a complete asshole to most women for the entertainment aspect. At one point a girl put out her had to introduce herself and started saying her name before I interrupted her and claimed 'don't worry about introducing yourself. i probably won't remember you anyways'. I have NEVER done something like this before. Toward the end of the night I did spot one attractive chica I was interested in and after speaking with her I found out she was Mexican and was fluent in Spanish. I may not have approached this girl pre-Colombia and we wouldn't have hit it off as well as we did if I didn't know any Spanish.

I wanted to thank some of the key members of this forum for the inspiration and information. It truly was a life changing experience.
(This post was last modified: 02-09-2012 01:56 AM by thegameoflife.)
02-09-2012 01:55 AM
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RE: Colombia Datasheet (Bogota & Cartagena)
(02-09-2012 01:55 AM)thegameoflife Wrote:  I made a personal vow NEVER to sleep with a North American woman again.

Except for Mexicanas you mean!
+1 from me - good report!
02-09-2012 06:23 AM
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Amsterdao! Offline
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RE: Colombia Datasheet (Bogota & Cartagena)
MR. BABILLA

A couple of days later I went to Mr. Babilla…which was the best club I went to in Colombia. It only had three rooms but the atmosphere was amazing. Women were very friendly and approachable (at one point I am 100% sure I was dancing with a prostitute haha), the place had hired professional dancers on the bar and there was the strangest horse costume I have ever seen in my life. The guy had fake legs over an extremely realistic looking horse and he walked around in the same fashion that a slightly scared horse would. He was even able to control the eyes and ears. If someone came up behind him suddenly he would kick like a horse. It was unbelievable.

[quote]

My first and only night in Mr Babillas went horrible wrong. It was a saturday night and my local amiga cancelled a night of going out because she had a bady day whatever....Some of my hostel friends didn't want to go out because they had to wake up early. So...i ran out options at that moment and decided to go out alone anyway.

Later that evening i arrived already pretty drunk in Mr Babillas and i saw all those groups of pretty girls with guys. I had to befriend some guys to get to the girls. I bought a bottle of Old parr and the little cups and offered this guy with two girls a drink. One of those girls was his fiancee and the other one seems to be her sister. This girl grabbed my hand instantly to dance......so we had fun and drinking all the time. This guy was telling me all the time: treat the girl with respect etcetc...so i did. A couple drinks later this guy became a little angry and hostile.. Maybe a had a bad drunk, but he wasn't really happy with me there anymore. This girl i was dancing with was all over me and kissed me once shortly (that guy told we could not kiss). After a while he was really drunk and angry and he was obvious i did not give him the respect he deserved. He told me he was a high end criminal or whatever....so at the end he want me to go outside and have a fight. He already walked his way out with the girls and i took a shortcut..walked out of Mr babillas alone straight to Tu Candela.

I was not afraid of this guy, but i don't know him and i didn't want to make more problems after all....so i walked away without a having a fight. I was alone...so not the moment to take a risk
02-09-2012 07:28 AM
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rinestone Offline
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RE: Colombia Datasheet (Bogota & Cartagena)
All the girls you mentioned sound like prepagos or best case, gringo hunters. Drinking out of a stranger s bottle is very, very risky and i wouldnt recommend it for anybody, especially at a gringo night. Given both, I would say while you may have 'gotten lucky' only once, you got lucky.
02-09-2012 08:04 AM
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MiXX Offline
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RE: Colombia Datasheet (Bogota & Cartagena)
Guys Mr. Babillas has been known to Colombian locals an Colombia travel experts as a prepago (escort) hangout.

90% of girls you see there (alone or in groups with no men) are friendly because they are pros, and they won't directly tell you this up front, until your pants are down, and your cock is in your hand in a hotel room. This is the typical swoop fro a pro, they count that you are more likely to pay for sex (or help her with school money) when your dick is hard, and your pants are down, than telling you up-front in the venue.

Colombian non-pro women who go out at night always have at least 1 Male in the group, always.

+1 for the data sheet game of life, could you be cool enough to add to the MOntreal thread your thoughts on banging local women there? I will be spending the entire summer in Montreal from July to Sept.


Mixx
(This post was last modified: 02-09-2012 10:36 AM by MiXX.)
02-09-2012 10:33 AM
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RE: Colombia Datasheet (Bogota & Cartagena)
Solid trip report, 'life.

(02-09-2012 01:55 AM)thegameoflife Wrote:  I read before going that you should dress down whenever you go out but I did just the opposite (especially when going to Zona Rosa) often wearing my watch, a sport coat etc. It has been said over and over again….if you are smart and don’t put yourself in bad decisions you will be alright.

So are you saying that you were dressed more or less casual than the general crowd in Zona Rosa? (I'm packing as we speak, and trying to decide what to bring.) You recommend suited-down at all?

Thanks.
02-09-2012 12:25 PM
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RE: Colombia Datasheet (Bogota & Cartagena)
(02-09-2012 08:04 AM)rinestone Wrote:  Drinking out of a stranger s bottle is very, very risky and i wouldnt recommend it for anybody, especially at a gringo night. Given both, I would say while you may have 'gotten lucky' only once, you got lucky.

I agree 100% but I made the point of watching them pour themselves drinks from the same bottle. I think I was very lucky on this trip....the same night I shared a cab back to my Colombian friends place and had beer and herb with them until 7:00am the next morning. I got a good feeling from them and they were a couple of years younger than me so I just rolled with it. At one point they poured a shot that I didn't see them pour so I declined saying I was too drunk.

I took a couple of chances while I was in Colombia and managed to come out alive whether it was a case of luck, skill on my part or that Colombia is not as dangerous as people perceive....I am not sure.
02-09-2012 06:18 PM
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RE: Colombia Datasheet (Bogota & Cartagena)
(02-09-2012 12:25 PM)PDX Wrote:  Solid trip report, 'life.

(02-09-2012 01:55 AM)thegameoflife Wrote:  I read before going that you should dress down whenever you go out but I did just the opposite (especially when going to Zona Rosa) often wearing my watch, a sport coat etc. It has been said over and over again….if you are smart and don’t put yourself in bad decisions you will be alright.

So are you saying that you were dressed more or less casual than the general crowd in Zona Rosa? (I'm packing as we speak, and trying to decide what to bring.) You recommend suited-down at all?

Thanks.

I was consistently better dressed (less casual) than the general crowd. In Zona Rosa everyone is pretty well dressed. I would recommend taking a variety of clothes depending on where you are going. If I was going to go on a 'ghetto tour' I made sure to dress my worst. hahaha.

If you have anymore questions feel free to PM me.
02-09-2012 06:26 PM
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RE: Colombia Datasheet (Bogota & Cartagena)
Colombia is not a place to be trifled with certainly in the wrong parts of town.

But other than that it really isn't as bad as some people make out.

In parts of Bogota I felt like I was in Europe and it's completely safe. But these are more in the Northern richer areas, i.e. Parque 93 etc.

La Candelaria is not a place to be fucking around when it gets dark.

I was more cautious in lots of places and I think it saved my ass on a few occassions.

I was walking around the street in Cartagena late at night, supposedly one of the safest cities especially for a gringo. Some guys were handing out flyers I refused and walked around the corner and saw about 7 guys suddenly appear..sheeet. So I go for the nearest exit and get a cab back to my hotel.

I used to get cabs back with older guys, I just couldn't trust younger drivers, especially when they try and hustle you so much. One tried to take the scenic route with me one time in Bogota, thanks to my American friend talking to me in English in the back. The cab drivers obviously thought we were mugs..little did he know we lived there and we both spoke Spanish, he got a rude awakening!
02-09-2012 06:27 PM
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RE: Colombia Datasheet (Bogota & Cartagena)
(02-09-2012 10:33 AM)MiXX Wrote:  Guys Mr. Babillas has been known to Colombian locals an Colombia travel experts as a prepago (escort) hangout.

90% of girls you see there (alone or in groups with no men) are friendly because they are pros, and they won't directly tell you this up front, until your pants are down, and your cock is in your hand in a hotel room. This is the typical swoop fro a pro, they count that you are more likely to pay for sex (or help her with school money) when your dick is hard, and your pants are down, than telling you up-front in the venue.

Colombian non-pro women who go out at night always have at least 1 Male in the group, always.

+1 for the data sheet game of life, could you be cool enough to add to the MOntreal thread your thoughts on banging local women there? I will be spending the entire summer in Montreal from July to Sept.


Mixx

Absolutely Mixx. You indirectly helped me find a decent apartment so I owe you. If you check out threads I have posted on I already put up a couple of comments about closing 2 bangs in Montreal. I will give more details shortly.
02-09-2012 06:27 PM
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RE: Colombia Datasheet (Bogota & Cartagena)
(02-09-2012 06:18 PM)thegameoflife Wrote:  
(02-09-2012 08:04 AM)rinestone Wrote:  Drinking out of a stranger s bottle is very, very risky and i wouldnt recommend it for anybody, especially at a gringo night. Given both, I would say while you may have 'gotten lucky' only once, you got lucky.

I agree 100% but I made the point of watching them pour themselves drinks from the same bottle. I think I was very lucky on this trip....the same night I shared a cab back to my Colombian friends place and had beer and herb with them until 7:00am the next morning. I got a good feeling from them and they were a couple of years younger than me so I just rolled with it. At one point they poured a shot that I didn't see them pour so I declined saying I was too drunk.

I took a couple of chances while I was in Colombia and managed to come out alive whether it was a case of luck, skill on my part or that Colombia is not as dangerous as people perceive....I am not sure.

It's definitely safer then the perception and glad it worked out. Having said that, at one point I got too comfortable here, let my guard up, and was drugged and robbed. My fault though. While others have been more careless and more fortunate, I got waaaaaaaaay too comfortable.

Silly as it sounds, there s something to be said for the impression or vibe you got from people. Anyone who has read 'blink' by Malcolm Gladwell can tell you that.

Again, it's common sense but to all those out there enjoying zona rosa and thinking it has a European feel (and it does), remember that you're not the only one who thinks that. Nice areas bring in more money and more money brings in people looking to take it. Keep your guard up.
02-10-2012 04:56 AM
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RE: Colombia Datasheet (Bogota & Cartagena)
Great data sheet GOL, it was nice to link up with you in Bogota man, we had some good times there, you definitely should have quit your job though and stayed here with me for the rest of the winter, how cold is it in Winnipeg today?

I hope you're practicing your Spanish and salsa moves for the next time you come here, you'll definitely have to hit up Cali next time, very good times to be had here.

I think your experience in Bogota, really highlights what Roosh wrote in his Colombia book about how guys on a short trip really have to hit the streets hard and use all available avenues to meet women, then there's the guys like me who are here for an extended period and end up slacking at first.

The night we went to Andres DC in Zona Rose was comical, guys, GOL is a text book case of how being a tall, well dressed gringo draws women. I remember chillin at the bar just watching this guy approach like a mad man, he got shut down a couple of times but its didn't phase him, later in the night he had Colombian GUYS coming up to him to ask him to dance with THEIR women! After the bar, we were hanging outside Andres and waiting for a taxi, I can't remember how women came up to GOL and gave him their numbers, that one from Armenia was a stunner GOL! Then we me a proverbial "ugly American", I"ll let GOL elaborate on that one.

Other funny moments included walking down carrera 11 in Chapinero and watching the homos damn near trip over themselves while eyeballing GOL and when you came knocking on my door at 3am with that Texan scallywag, "Scotian, I need some weed man" lol.....anyway, I gotta go catch this bus from Cali to St. Cipriano (close to Buenaventura), hope to see you again in Colombia sometime bro!
02-10-2012 11:53 AM
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RE: Colombia Datasheet (Bogota & Cartagena)
I spent 5 weeks in Bogota, and a great 5 weeks it was! I was pretty deep in my studies while there so I don't feel I was out and about enough to make a new thread for a datasheet, but I'll add a few observations below that you guys might find useful.

Bangs: 5 in 5 weeks. 3 from online game (ColombianCupid) and 2 from nightgame.

Where to stay: Rent an apartment if you can. Chapinero is good (although it gets a little shady after 10pm), Zona Rosa would be even better but was unfortunately a bit beyond my budget. If I went back I would probably bring enough cash to rent in Zona Rosa.

Nightgame: Zona Rosa (or Zona T as most locals call it) is the place to go out. Loads of bars, clubs and restaurants. A lot of Salsa places which are pretty daunting if you're salsa skills aren't so great (my case), but also a handful of places where the emphasis is more on drinking and socializing. The best places I was in were:

La Villa - always a few gringo hunters and usually at least a couple of hot girls in here. Gringo night on Tuesday is good fun, and although cock-heavy at times, if you dig through and persist enough you can turn out some good results. Tenerife had the perfect style for this place: go hard, drag the girl outside, try and get her in a cab back to your place "for 20 minutes", and repeat. I think he banged 5 girls in a week form there (?) or something crazy like that. It'd be interesting if he wrote a post breaking down the process. If you are looking to get a Colombian girl in the shortest time, this is probably the best place to go.

Armando Records - A somewhat classier crowd than La Villa, and slightly less friendly (and a little older) to go with it. Laid out over a couple of floors, there's definite potential here but I was never able to make anything stick here at the same time. I would say your game and Spanish (and style) need to be pretty tight to give you a good chance of pulling from here. PrettySmooth had some joy here, maybe he will elaborate more.

Daygame: There are a few malls in Zona T, all of which were pretty good for daygaming. I didn't really have much time to devote to daygaming, but the few times I went it was pretty easy to game and get numbers but flakiness was pretty high thereafter: girls would keep in contact but it was hard to get them to commit to a meet.

Internet Game: I am generally not the biggest fan of internet game, but it's really really good in Bogota. I used Colombian Cupid (I dabbled with OkCupid a little too, but the quality was far inferior so I quit it pretty soon). It was pretty easy to arrange meeting with girls, they always showed up, they were happy to come meet in my neighborhood and I banged 3 of the 4 girls that I met on the first meeting. All were around 7s (imo). One was down for me to arrange a threesome if I could find another willing candidate, but unfortunately that never came to pass.

Game: Colombian girls are very sexual and have no hang-ups about sex. Basically your job is to just facilitate it happening. I spent quite a lot of time dealing with LMR in Colombia (perhaps because I was trying to bang the girls pretty fast). The key is to just keep pushing (in a non-rapey way of course) while giving her ample opportunities to voice her objections. Once you allow her to get all her questions / reservations off her chest, and once you handle them ok, she will have sex with you. This can take quite a long time, so just be patient. I had over 2 hours of LMR with pretty much every Colombian I banged. Then again I banged 2 on the Day1 and 2 on the Day2, so if you're taking things a bit slower and dating a few more times before taking them back to your place you may experience less. But honestly, the girls are usually down to bang pretty quickly, so why wait? Girls are also pretty keen to meet up with you multiple times too, it's pretty easy to get a rotation going if you organize things well.

Safety: Daytime feels fine in Chapinero / Zona Rosa. Once 10pm hits it can feel a little sinister at times. Be sensible, take taxis after 10 and be aware of your surroundings and you should be ok. Zona Rosa felt safe to walk in any time of day or night.

Overall: Bogota is a cool place with very fun girls that are open to foreigners. The city itself is a bit gray and polluted which did annoy me after a while. That added to the safety aspect meant that I was quite happy to leave when the time came. Internet game is some of the best I have ever experienced. Night game is pretty good in terms of potential/results but not really as much fun as Brazil unless you're a Salsa lover. I would definitely come back and visit Colombia, but I would probably spend just a few days in Bogota and most of my time in Medellin on a subsequent visit. And I would think very seriously about learning salsa in that case.

P.S. A quick thank you to those that wrote datasheets for Bogota before and made the place a bit easier to navigate - especially Scotian who gave me some really good info and help.
04-05-2014 02:05 PM
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