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Living like Hugh Heffner
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Lumiere Offline
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Post: #51
RE: Living like Hugh Heffner
(03-04-2012 11:38 AM)thegmanifesto Wrote:  Is Beta the new Alpha?™

This is how and why the whole beta / alpha debate is pointless.

A lot of guys think if you are getting laid and getting hot chicks = alpha

Women have two imperatives. The need for a dominant man and the need for a provider (which is the root cause of hypergamy).

If you get laid because you meet the 2nd one you are very likely beta.

If she fucks you just because you are a fuckable guy and you aint throwing coin at her then you are likely alpha

If a dude thinks that he is a fuckable dominant guy but is throwing coin around too then the question you need to ask is what would happen if he stopped?

Girls leave? beta. Girls stay and bang him anyway? alpha
(This post was last modified: 03-31-2012 03:45 PM by Lumiere.)
03-31-2012 03:45 PM
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joehoya Offline
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Post: #52
RE: Living like Hugh Heffner
(03-31-2012 03:45 PM)Lumiere Wrote:  
(03-04-2012 11:38 AM)thegmanifesto Wrote:  Is Beta the new Alpha?™

This is how and why the whole beta / alpha debate is pointless.

A lot of guys think if you are getting laid and getting hot chicks = alpha

Women have two imperatives. The need for a dominant man and the need for a provider (which is the root cause of hypergamy).

If you get laid because you meet the 2nd one you are very likely beta.

If she fucks you just because you are a fuckable guy and you aint throwing coin at her then you are likely alpha

If a dude thinks that he is a fuckable dominant guy but is throwing coin around too then the question you need to ask is what would happen if he stopped?

Girls leave? beta. Girls stay and bang him anyway? alpha

So what happens when the girl who was with you "just because you are a fuckable guy" leaves you for a dude with cash? Does that mean that you got out alpha'd by a beta?

While I understand the point you are trying to make, I think that a lot of dudes use this argument as an excuse for being broke. They then try to assert that any guy who flashes money around is being beta. In your post, it seems that you are claiming that if you couldn't get the girl without having money then that means you are beta.

The problem with that logic is that, using your definition, it essentially means that a HUGE swath of the premium women out there will only go out with "betas", since they would not date a broke dude.

The fact is that having financial means is EXTREMELY attractive to women, particularly when those means are significantly higher than that of the average male. It is one of the clearest symbols of power/status we have in our society. I equate money with looks. You can be filthy rich and be beta, and you can be really good looking and be beta. However the guy with money AND game, or the guy with looks AND game, absolutely monkey stomps the broke/average looking guy with game.

The key distinction between Alpha and Beta isn't whether you are flashing cash or just being cocky/funny. It is about CHOICE. Remember that the Alpha male in the pack has his CHOICE of females, while the beta males fight over what is left.

So how does this apply to money? Lets take a Beta millionaire and an Alpha millionaire. The beta millionaire approaches a woman with the mentality of supplication and approval seeking. He thinks "If I show this girl how much money I have and how much stuff I will give her, maybe she will like me." In effect, he offers up his resources to the woman FOR HER TO CHOSE whether she will accept them in exchange for her pussy.

The Alpha millionaire, on the other hand, KNOWS THAT HE HAS MANY OPTIONS. He doesn't supplicate to a woman. He has a great lifestyle and HE CHOOSES which women he allows to experience that lifestyle with him. If a particular woman isn't interested he doesn't care because THERE IS AN ABUNDANCE OF WOMEN FOR HIM TO CHOSE FROM.

From a woman's perspective this results in completely different behavior when dealing with the alpha and beta millionaires. In the case of the beta millionaire, the woman demands more and more things from him, because he has demonstrated that HE VALUES HER OVER HIS WEALTH. In the case of the alpha millionaire, the woman is in a constant competition to keep his attention because HIS WEALTH MAKES HER EASILY REPLACEABLE BY ANOTHER YOUNGER/BETTER LOOKING FEMALE. She is a queen to the beta millionaire but merely a commodity to the alpha millionaire.
(This post was last modified: 03-31-2012 11:59 PM by joehoya.)
03-31-2012 11:58 PM
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xsplat Offline
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Post: #53
RE: Living like Hugh Heffner
(03-31-2012 11:58 PM)joehoya Wrote:  
(03-31-2012 03:45 PM)Lumiere Wrote:  
(03-04-2012 11:38 AM)thegmanifesto Wrote:  Is Beta the new Alpha?™

This is how and why the whole beta / alpha debate is pointless.

A lot of guys think if you are getting laid and getting hot chicks = alpha

Women have two imperatives. The need for a dominant man and the need for a provider (which is the root cause of hypergamy).

If you get laid because you meet the 2nd one you are very likely beta.

If she fucks you just because you are a fuckable guy and you aint throwing coin at her then you are likely alpha

If a dude thinks that he is a fuckable dominant guy but is throwing coin around too then the question you need to ask is what would happen if he stopped?

Girls leave? beta. Girls stay and bang him anyway? alpha

So what happens when the girl who was with you "just because you are a fuckable guy" leaves you for a dude with cash? Does that mean that you got out alpha'd by a beta?

While I understand the point you are trying to make, I think that a lot of dudes use this argument as an excuse for being broke. They then try to assert that any guy who flashes money around is being beta. In your post, it seems that you are claiming that if you couldn't get the girl without having money then that means you are beta.

The problem with that logic is that, using your definition, it essentially means that a HUGE swath of the premium women out there will only go out with "betas", since they would not date a broke dude.

The fact is that having financial means is EXTREMELY attractive to women, particularly when those means are significantly higher than that of the average male. It is one of the clearest symbols of power/status we have in our society. I equate money with looks. You can be filthy rich and be beta, and you can be really good looking and be beta. However the guy with money AND game, or the guy with looks AND game, absolutely monkey stomps the broke/average looking guy with game.

The key distinction between Alpha and Beta isn't whether you are flashing cash or just being cocky/funny. It is about CHOICE. Remember that the Alpha male in the pack has his CHOICE of females, while the beta males fight over what is left.

So how does this apply to money? Lets take a Beta millionaire and an Alpha millionaire. The beta millionaire approaches a woman with the mentality of supplication and approval seeking. He thinks "If I show this girl how much money I have and how much stuff I will give her, maybe she will like me." In effect, he offers up his resources to the woman FOR HER TO CHOSE whether she will accept them in exchange for her pussy.

The Alpha millionaire, on the other hand, KNOWS THAT HE HAS MANY OPTIONS. He doesn't supplicate to a woman. He has a great lifestyle and HE CHOOSES which women he allows to experience that lifestyle with him. If a particular woman isn't interested he doesn't care because THERE IS AN ABUNDANCE OF WOMEN FOR HIM TO CHOSE FROM.

From a woman's perspective this results in completely different behavior when dealing with the alpha and beta millionaires. In the case of the beta millionaire, the woman demands more and more things from him, because he has demonstrated that HE VALUES HER OVER HIS WEALTH. In the case of the alpha millionaire, the woman is in a constant competition to keep his attention because HIS WEALTH MAKES HER EASILY REPLACEABLE BY ANOTHER YOUNGER/BETTER LOOKING FEMALE. She is a queen to the beta millionaire but merely a commodity to the alpha millionaire.

I agree with your take Jehoya.

I know that a lot of men are very precise in their demand that a woman love him for the “real me”. The news is that women don’t love in the same way that men do. Inexperienced men tend to project our masculine notions of intimacy onto females. Men are not more attracted to rich women, and so must strain to imagine that wealth can be felt to be a personality trait. To see women clearly requires a leap out from male solipsism. Females don’t untangle your finances from your deep personal essence, and love your ineffable wonder. They see a whole picture. If you’ve worked on your whole picture, you will still be lovable without cash. But cash is always additive. It is beta to be embarrassed to add to an already good thing.
04-01-2012 04:41 AM
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Lumiere Offline
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Post: #54
RE: Living like Hugh Heffner
(03-31-2012 11:58 PM)joehoya Wrote:  So what happens when the girl who was with you "just because you are a fuckable guy" leaves you for a dude with cash? Does that mean that you got out alpha'd by a beta?

No it means you were banging a gold digger for free.

(03-31-2012 11:58 PM)joehoya Wrote:  While I understand the point you are trying to make, I think that a lot of dudes use this argument as an excuse for being broke. They then try to assert that any guy who flashes money around is being beta.

Flashing money around is beta. Guys who rely on "bling" are implicitly saying that they would be worthless without it. Dudes who are billionaires don't go around wearing chunky gold necklaces and drive around in cars that bounce up and down.

(03-31-2012 11:58 PM)joehoya Wrote:  In your post, it seems that you are claiming that if you couldn't get the girl without having money then that means you are beta.

No, this is where you misunderstood my post. I said if you could not get the girl without using the money then you are beta. You can be alpha and still have money. Lots of alpha guys are rich.

Some rich guys are beta. If what has been said about Hefner, that he pays he girlfriends thousands of dollars a week just to be his girlfriends, then he is hiring hookers / goldiggers to hang around him and its fucking pathetic.

(03-31-2012 11:58 PM)joehoya Wrote:  The problem with that logic is that, using your definition, it essentially means that a HUGE swath of the premium women out there will only go out with "betas", since they would not date a broke dude.

Nope, you misunderstood again.

Nowhere did I say poor = alpha and rich = beta.

Read my post again. I said women have 2 imperatives. If you cannot satisfy the first one (regardless of your wealth) you are very likely beta.
04-01-2012 07:16 AM
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Lumiere Offline
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Post: #55
RE: Living like Hugh Heffner
Would also say that if you want to live like Hefner, go to UPI or thailand.

For one tenth of what he pays them you would not be able to handle of the applications you would get from women who want to be your girlfriend.
04-01-2012 07:19 AM
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Moma Offline
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Post: #56
RE: Living like Hugh Heffner
(04-01-2012 07:19 AM)Lumiere Wrote:  Would also say that if you want to live like Hefner, go to UPI or thailand.

For one tenth of what he pays them you would not be able to handle of the applications you would get from women who want to be your girlfriend.

Lumiere on your grounds, then if one uses his looks to get lizards then he is BETA. To prove you are alpha, you shouldn't shower, wear fresh garms and you should have a crappy face and you should be overweight.

If you continue to score new lizards looking like this, then you are truly ALPHA.

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04-02-2012 10:14 PM
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JofSuperman Offline
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Post: #57
RE: Living like Hugh Heffner
The new Hugh Hefner



04-28-2012 01:01 PM
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bacan Offline
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Post: #58
RE: Living like Hugh Heffner
In that first video on the playboy mansion party, that's super impressive that some guy fucked that playmate in a taxi cab... tight game!

Also, I would pick Bill Gates life over Hugh Hefner's life.. Bill Gates is a truly great man and is going to be remembered in history books for his work with Microsoft and the Gates foundation... Hefner.. not so much

Honestly, I like fucking hot girls, but being free from the urges and insecurities and desires that lead me to invest time and energy in girls instead of becoming a great man like Bill Gates is might lead to some wonderful things as well
(This post was last modified: 04-30-2012 07:23 AM by bacan.)
04-30-2012 07:21 AM
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Post: #59
RE: Living like Hugh Heffner
(04-30-2012 07:21 AM)bacan Wrote:  In that first video on the playboy mansion party, that's super impressive that some guy fucked that playmate in a taxi cab... tight game!

Also, I would pick Bill Gates life over Hugh Hefner's life.. Bill Gates is a truly great man and is going to be remembered in history books for his work with Microsoft and the Gates foundation... Hefner.. not so much

Honestly, I like fucking hot girls, but being free from the urges and insecurities and desires that lead me to invest time and energy in girls instead of becoming a great man like Bill Gates is might lead to some wonderful things as well


Yea he had some game to pull that off, but the cards where also in his favor. Not just any guy gets invited to the mansion parties, either you're famous and are some sort of celebrity, or you're rich out the ass! Add the supposed 10 women for every 1 guy ratio at the parties, and you're in good shape.

Hugh Hefner is known for being one of the figure heads for the sexual revolution...at least in the US.

I like and respect Bill Gates as well, being a tech entrepreneur myself, but his not really in with the ladies haha.
04-30-2012 10:10 AM
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Post: #60
RE: Living like Hugh Heffner
Great video, thanks for posting.

Charlie Sheen has spectacular inner game.

Some of his throwaway lines in that video are genius DHV. I'm taking notes.

After showing off his cigar collection at 0:46: Cool, they're there if you need one.

Talking about ex-wives and his daughters at 7:10: They'll wake up one day and realize how cool dad is. You know, who signs all the checks on the front, not the back.
04-30-2012 10:28 AM
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ABDada Offline
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Post: #61
RE: Living like Hugh Heffner
As you get older, the value of money becomes second to the value of time.

I have more than a handful of clients that fit the "sugar daddy" role just fine and they don't give a shit about it -- they're in their 60s, they have tons of disposable incomes, their kids are self sufficient, and they still like pretty young things on their laps. What they don't have is time -- their attitude is still 100% player gamer, but their futures are counted in years, not decades.

I know personally, as I get closer to 40, I dismiss women faster and faster if they're obviously playing hard to get. As my income has gone up and my ability to maintain my standard of living has gotten easier (with reputation, and with skill), I care less and less about where my money goes than I did just 5 years ago. I have enough to life a decade without income, so I don't care if I toss $500 to cover a gal's weekend in Costa Rica with me versus going down there to attempt to game a local or a tourist. It's all the same to me, based on the limit time I have to play player like I did when I was 22.

That being said, I don't sugar daddy anyone, ever. If I flip $500 for a gal to join me on a weekend getaway, she's already earned it by proving that she's fun as hell, loves to fuck (me), and doesn't give me shit. I'd never take a gold digger on a weekend business trip, just the sweet and fun low maintenance gals who don't expect surprises.
04-30-2012 03:22 PM
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JofSuperman Offline
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Post: #62
RE: Living like Hugh Heffner
(04-30-2012 03:22 PM)ABDada Wrote:  As you get older, the value of money becomes second to the value of time.

I have more than a handful of clients that fit the "sugar daddy" role just fine and they don't give a shit about it -- they're in their 60s, they have tons of disposable incomes, their kids are self sufficient, and they still like pretty young things on their laps. What they don't have is time -- their attitude is still 100% player gamer, but their futures are counted in years, not decades.

I know personally, as I get closer to 40, I dismiss women faster and faster if they're obviously playing hard to get. As my income has gone up and my ability to maintain my standard of living has gotten easier (with reputation, and with skill), I care less and less about where my money goes than I did just 5 years ago. I have enough to life a decade without income, so I don't care if I toss $500 to cover a gal's weekend in Costa Rica with me versus going down there to attempt to game a local or a tourist. It's all the same to me, based on the limit time I have to play player like I did when I was 22.

That being said, I don't sugar daddy anyone, ever. If I flip $500 for a gal to join me on a weekend getaway, she's already earned it by proving that she's fun as hell, loves to fuck (me), and doesn't give me shit. I'd never take a gold digger on a weekend business trip, just the sweet and fun low maintenance gals who don't expect surprises.

Damn, I'm a young cat but I have come around to the same thinking, time is everything, and cutting through the bullshit whenever I can is my mindset...well most of the time lol.
05-01-2012 12:33 AM
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RASER Offline
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Post: #63
RE: Living like Hugh Heffner
HH claims " I've slept with over a thousand women"

I would have thought he would and should have done more, he has 9 and 10's on tap!

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/enterta...6607421714

"Lifes about, shooting your load"
(This post was last modified: 03-27-2013 03:34 PM by RASER.)
03-27-2013 03:34 PM
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thegmanifesto Offline
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RE: Living like Hugh Heffner
(04-30-2012 07:21 AM)bacan Wrote:  In that first video on the playboy mansion party, that's super impressive that some guy fucked that playmate in a taxi cab... tight game!

Also, I would pick Bill Gates life over Hugh Hefner's life.. Bill Gates is a truly great man and is going to be remembered in history books for his work with Microsoft and the Gates foundation... Hefner.. not so much

Honestly, I like fucking hot girls, but being free from the urges and insecurities and desires that lead me to invest time and energy in girls instead of becoming a great man like Bill Gates is might lead to some wonderful things as well

You are probably not aware of all the things Hefner did for Civil Rights and Racial Equality.

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(This post was last modified: 03-27-2013 04:07 PM by thegmanifesto.)
03-27-2013 04:06 PM
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RE: Living like Hugh Heffner
(04-28-2012 01:01 PM)JofSuperman Wrote:  The new Hugh Hefner




Charlie Sheen is such a goon. A friend of mine is family. The things she tells me are worse than the things you hear on TV.
03-27-2013 04:23 PM
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Giovonny Offline
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Post: #66
RE: Living like Hugh Heffner
(03-27-2013 04:23 PM)InternationPlayboy Wrote:  Charlie Sheen is such a goon. A friend of mine is family. The things she tells me are worse than the things you hear on TV.

Like what?

What does she say about him???

Just curious..

(03-27-2013 04:06 PM)thegmanifesto Wrote:  You are probably not aware of all the things Hefner did for Civil Rights and Racial Equality.

And Sexual Rights!!!

And Playboy Rights!!!

Heff helped take sex out of the closet and make it less taboo.

The man is a revolutionary!
(This post was last modified: 03-27-2013 04:57 PM by Giovonny.)
03-27-2013 04:52 PM
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RE: Living like Hugh Heffner
I like Hefner's stay-at-home approach. Going to a bar alone dressed as a peacock sucks.

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03-27-2013 09:21 PM
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Post: #68
RE: Living like Hugh Heffner
(03-04-2012 11:04 PM)P Dog Wrote:  
(03-04-2012 10:04 PM)Hooligan Harry Wrote:  I guess the point I am making is that when you look at cold hard numbers only, unashamed hedonism is not only cheaper, it comes with very little social shaming.

I think people judge Hef and Charlie Sheen a lot more lightly than Tiger Woods because the former two never tried to hide who they are, they're upfront and honest about it. Meanwhile Tiger Woods played happy family to the public and the media, and when everyone found out it was a lie they slaughtered him for it because it destroyed the perceptions that they held of him.

JFK is another example, it was an open secret that he was a womanizer, and whether or not he had been assassinated people still would not have judged him as harshly as they did Bill Clinton for letting Monica Lewinsky suck his dick, even though JFK was fucking around on his wife far far more than Clinton ever did.

JFK also had better taste than Clinton. His wife was hotter and he fucked around with Monroe. Clinton married Shrillary and fucked a fattie on the side.

Re: Hefner: I wonder how much more wealth he controls that is in his company's name?
03-28-2013 05:20 AM
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RE: Living like Hugh Heffner
(03-28-2013 05:20 AM)Lazarus Wrote:  
(03-04-2012 11:04 PM)P Dog Wrote:  
(03-04-2012 10:04 PM)Hooligan Harry Wrote:  I guess the point I am making is that when you look at cold hard numbers only, unashamed hedonism is not only cheaper, it comes with very little social shaming.

I think people judge Hef and Charlie Sheen a lot more lightly than Tiger Woods because the former two never tried to hide who they are, they're upfront and honest about it. Meanwhile Tiger Woods played happy family to the public and the media, and when everyone found out it was a lie they slaughtered him for it because it destroyed the perceptions that they held of him.

JFK is another example, it was an open secret that he was a womanizer, and whether or not he had been assassinated people still would not have judged him as harshly as they did Bill Clinton for letting Monica Lewinsky suck his dick, even though JFK was fucking around on his wife far far more than Clinton ever did.

JFK also had better taste than Clinton. His wife was hotter and he fucked around with Monroe. Clinton married Shrillary and fucked a fattie on the side.

Re: Hefner: I wonder how much more wealth he controls that is in his company's name?

This is what we know about.

Unless you guys where in both Clinton's and JFK's bedrooms as well every night, there is know way to know for sure.

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03-28-2013 07:33 AM
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Post: #70
RE: Living like Hugh Heffner
You can argue about whether you would do the same as Hef given his resources, if you want. Thing is, he does whatever the fuck he wants, and has done for 60 years.

You gonna argue with that?

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03-28-2013 08:00 AM
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RE: Living like Hugh Heffner
(03-04-2012 11:06 AM)Jalouse Wrote:  Playboy stock was worth much more in the 90's so you could probably put his net worth at over a hundred million back then. Very recently they have bought out all remaining stock so it's no longer a public company and it seems profits are in decline in the Playboy biz so he's probably making less than stated in those figures which were from 2009.

Another interesting fact is that he doesn't own the playboy mansion, it's owned by the company and it's only listed as $1.3 million on the companys balance sheet when obviously it is worth far in excess of this.

LOL, at he Playboy Mansion only being wirth 1.3. Mil! The scene of some of the most legendary Hollywood parties ever.
03-28-2013 12:16 PM
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RE: Living like Hugh Heffner
(03-28-2013 12:16 PM)DarkTriad Wrote:  
(03-04-2012 11:06 AM)Jalouse Wrote:  Playboy stock was worth much more in the 90's so you could probably put his net worth at over a hundred million back then. Very recently they have bought out all remaining stock so it's no longer a public company and it seems profits are in decline in the Playboy biz so he's probably making less than stated in those figures which were from 2009.

Another interesting fact is that he doesn't own the playboy mansion, it's owned by the company and it's only listed as $1.3 million on the companys balance sheet when obviously it is worth far in excess of this.

LOL, at he Playboy Mansion only being wirth 1.3. Mil! The scene of some of the most legendary Hollywood parties ever.

Its a dated heap of shag carpet and wood. The land it sits on is maybe worth a heap of cash but the house its self is not all that amazing in comparison to what is in the neighbourhood.

A lot of people gassing Big man Hugh up but I've never really been a big fan of the guy. I respected his business hustle back in the day more then his "pimping", because his "pimp" game is nothing more then him shelling out cash to bang whores. I've read and hear to many dodgy stories about those scheduled romps, and having fucked up types of porn streaming on his big screen while he's piping these broads. Its not really some mega glamorous life and as many have stated you can live the same lifestyle abroad for cheaper with women whom actually have a stake in making sure you are happy. These bitches just use Heff as a ATM.

He let his Playboy Empire fall into weak hands and the company is going ass up real quick. Dude was at the forefront of TV when the market was for adult entertainment was just about to blow up, and he did have a leg into the Internet first also but things in the last 10 years or so went weird and the company has been in a coma since. All his main competition like Hustler and Vivid have completely kicked Playboys ass as far as Internet presence goes. Playboy is barley on the radar, it got a small boost from product merchandise but that flamed out too.

I am probably in the minority but a dude does not get my automatic default respect just because he fucks a lot of chicks.

That reality show with the three blondes is what sour'd me on Heff. Dude was a old geezer and his broads especially that broad from Sand Diego you KNOW was riding Alpha's on the side and just spending Heffs money. Jeff Garcia was with his other Bunny Bridgette the whole damn time she was on Playboy's payroll, shit is a joke.

Yea he gets sex from them on whatever day they are scheduled but dude is not getting any respect from them females. If your females don't respect you ...you ain't running game.
03-28-2013 12:37 PM
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Giovonny Offline
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Post: #73
RE: Living like Hugh Heffner
(03-28-2013 12:37 PM)kosko Wrote:  Its a dated heap of shag carpet and wood. The land it sits on is maybe worth a heap of cash but the house its self is not all that amazing in comparison to what is in the neighbourhood.

A lot of people gassing Big man Hugh up but I've never really been a big fan of the guy. I respected his business hustle back in the day more then his "pimping", because his "pimp" game is nothing more then him shelling out cash to bang whores. I've read and hear to many dodgy stories about those scheduled romps, and having fucked up types of porn streaming on his big screen while he's piping these broads. Its not really some mega glamorous life and as many have stated you can live the same lifestyle abroad for cheaper with women whom actually have a stake in making sure you are happy. These bitches just use Heff as a ATM.

He let his Playboy Empire fall into weak hands and the company is going ass up real quick. Dude was at the forefront of TV when the market was for adult entertainment was just about to blow up, and he did have a leg into the Internet first also but things in the last 10 years or so went weird and the company has been in a coma since. All his main competition like Hustler and Vivid have completely kicked Playboys ass as far as Internet presence goes. Playboy is barley on the radar, it got a small boost from product merchandise but that flamed out too.

I am probably in the minority but a dude does not get my automatic default respect just because he fucks a lot of chicks.

That reality show with the three blondes is what sour'd me on Heff. Dude was a old geezer and his broads especially that broad from Sand Diego you KNOW was riding Alpha's on the side and just spending Heffs money. Jeff Garcia was with his other Bunny Bridgette the whole damn time she was on Playboy's payroll, shit is a joke.

Yea he gets sex from them on whatever day they are scheduled but dude is not getting any respect from them females. If your females don't respect you ...you ain't running game.

I agree with everything you said.

I still respect Heff for his accomplishments and his lifestyle.

It's not about Game. It's about Lifestyle Design.

It's not about banging chicks. It's about living the life that you want. That's way more important then p*ssy. That's why I respect him.
(This post was last modified: 03-28-2013 12:54 PM by Giovonny.)
03-28-2013 12:50 PM
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