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How ALEC Took Florida's 'License to Kill' Law National
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jariel Offline
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Post: #226
RE: How ALEC Took Florida's 'License to Kill' Law National
(03-29-2012 02:06 PM)assman Wrote:  
(03-29-2012 01:56 PM)jariel Wrote:  Your comments on Richard Kurtz, who has years of experience working with the bodies of individuals who have been victims of homicide, are not worth rebutting.
Oh really?

He can't determine where a bullet entered the body, but he can definitively say that there was no trauma to the hands. And that's not worth questioning???

Every piece of data that supports jariel's and JayMillz' views is trumpted as 'aha! Zimmerman is guilty!' and every piece of evidence that goes the other way is fabricated by the police/Zimmerman/his friends. I figure everyone reading this thread can make up their own minds about who is being objective and who is jumping to conclusions.

Why is a mortician supposed to be able to identify entry and exit points?

All he could say was that there was a bullet wound in his chest.

Because he can't do something that would be unexpected anyway, he's disqualified from being able to observe trauma on his hands?

You and several of the other guys have never responded to the stories about the police wanting to charge him or any of the other really serious information that has been presented that does not go along with Zimmerman's story, yet you continue to peddle his story as if it's gospel.

If the police release pictures of Zimmerman's busted lip, broken nose, etc. that would change some things around, but they haven't done that.

There isn't any evidence that has been presented thus far that makes me believe that this thing happened the way he said it happened.

The man's friends and father going on TV to say things that he's told them are not evidence, they are not even admissible in a court of law.
03-29-2012 02:13 PM
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JayMillz Offline
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Post: #227
RE: How ALEC Took Florida's 'License to Kill' Law National
(03-29-2012 02:06 PM)assman Wrote:  Every piece of data that supports JayMillz' views is trumpted as 'aha! Zimmerman is guilty!'

At this point, we don't have enough information to decide one way or the other. Perhaps as more information becomes available, for instance the trajectory of the bullet, we can make a more informed decision about culpability. However, right now, I have some skepticism about Zimmerman.
03-29-2012 02:25 PM
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assman Offline
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Post: #228
RE: How ALEC Took Florida's 'License to Kill' Law National
(03-29-2012 02:13 PM)jariel Wrote:  You and several of the other guys have never responded to the stories about the police wanting to charge him or any of the other really serious information that has been presented that does not go along with Zimmerman's story, yet you continue to peddle his story as if it's gospel.
Someone already explained here that charging someone with a crime is the prosecutor's job, not the police's. So while there was an officer that wanted the DA to file charge, the initial prosecutor looked at the totality of the evidence and decided against. Now I can't say that that was definitely because the evidence didn't warrant charges, or because the lead prosecutor is a racist. But the latter is kinda hard to fathom, b/c there are multiple people in the DA's office who will have access to the info, so an obviously racially motivated decision to decline prosecution would be detected, I would think. But in any event, there is a specially appointed prosecutor who is going through the case.

So why not wait and see?
(This post was last modified: 03-29-2012 02:28 PM by assman.)
03-29-2012 02:27 PM
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assman Offline
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Post: #229
RE: How ALEC Took Florida's 'License to Kill' Law National
(03-29-2012 02:25 PM)JayMillz Wrote:  
(03-29-2012 02:06 PM)assman Wrote:  Every piece of data that supports JayMillz' views is trumpted as 'aha! Zimmerman is guilty!'

At this point, we don't have enough information to decide one way or the other. Perhaps as more information becomes available, for instance the trajectory of the bullet, we can make a more informed decision about culpability. However, right now, I have some skepticism about Zimmerman.
LOL, every time I think it's not possible to have a reasonable discussion with you about this, you surprise me.

I agree. And I don't blame you for being skeptical about Zimmerman's claim.
03-29-2012 02:32 PM
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Blackhawk Offline
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Post: #230
RE: How ALEC Took Florida's 'License to Kill' Law National
>no legitimate excuse for not contacting them.

It's called "not tampering with evidence".

Adding a bunch of fingerprints to a phone so you can call contacts immediately ...is tampering with evidence.
Adding a bunch of fingerprints to a phone so you can scroll through their contact list and look people up ...is tampering with evidence.
Making calls with that phone after the event, altering the call log, ...is tampering with evidence.
Moving a phone while its on so the carrier adds additional cell phone tower connections after the incident showing more movement than actually was done ...is tampering with evidence.'
Moving a smart phone while its on so the wireless network connection log gets altered and you lose valuable locality info ...is tampering with evidence.

A few wrong taps, and a thick thumbed cop will erase a lot of valuable evidence.

You get on the gloves, turn it off, bag the phone, and leave it to the specialists.

You do not tamper with evidence. You let the specialists collect the info. And that takes weeks if done correctly.

"Alpha children wear grey. They work much harder than we do, because they're so frightfully clever. I'm awfully glad I'm a Beta, because I don't work so hard. And then we are much better than the Gammas and Deltas. Gammas are stupid. They all wear green, and Delta children wear khaki. Oh no, I don't want to play with Delta children. And Epsilons are still worse. They're too stupid to be able to read or write. Besides they wear black, which is such a beastly color. I'm so glad I'm a Beta."
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(This post was last modified: 03-29-2012 02:38 PM by Blackhawk.)
03-29-2012 02:34 PM
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jariel Offline
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Post: #231
RE: How ALEC Took Florida's 'License to Kill' Law National
(03-29-2012 02:27 PM)assman Wrote:  
(03-29-2012 02:13 PM)jariel Wrote:  You and several of the other guys have never responded to the stories about the police wanting to charge him or any of the other really serious information that has been presented that does not go along with Zimmerman's story, yet you continue to peddle his story as if it's gospel.
Someone already explained here that charging someone with a crime is the prosecutor's job, not the police's. So while there was an officer that wanted the DA to file charge, the initial prosecutor looked at the totality of the evidence and decided against. Now I can't say that that was definitely because the evidence didn't warrant charges, or because the lead prosecutor is a racist. But the latter is kinda hard to fathom, b/c there are multiple people in the DA's office who will have access to the info, so an obviously racially motivated decision to decline prosecution would be detected, I would think. But in any event, there is a specially appointed prosecutor who is going through the case.

So why not wait and see?

I think you and I can mutually agree that out of everybody involved in this situation, Zimmerman has the greatest incentive to lie.

I see some people being more critical of the testimonies of people who have absolutely no incentive to lie than they are of Zimmerman.

If anything comes out that supports Zimmerman's story, I'll be more than happy to acknowledge it, but at this point, it hasn't been presented -- what Papa says, what his buddies say, and Trayvon's suspensions are not exculpatory evidence.

The problem here is that we're debating information and witness testimony that a jury should be taking a look at.

It appears to most people that at least an arrest is in order, ultimately whether or not there's a conviction is for a jury to decide.
(This post was last modified: 03-29-2012 02:51 PM by jariel.)
03-29-2012 02:42 PM
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jariel Offline
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Post: #232
RE: How ALEC Took Florida's 'License to Kill' Law National
(03-29-2012 02:34 PM)Blackhawk Wrote:  >no legitimate excuse for not contacting them.

It's called "not tampering with evidence".

Adding a bunch of fingerprints to a phone so you can call contacts immediately ...is tampering with evidence.
Adding a bunch of fingerprints to a phone so you can scroll through their contact list and look people up ...is tampering with evidence.
Making calls with that phone after the event, altering the call log, ...is tampering with evidence.
Moving a phone while its on so the carrier adds additional cell phone tower connections after the incident showing more movement than actually was done ...is tampering with evidence.'
Moving a smart phone while its on so the wireless network connection log gets altered and you lose valuable locality info ...is tampering with evidence.

A few wrong taps, and a thick thumbed cop will erase a lot of valuable evidence.

You get on the gloves, turn it off, bag the phone, and leave it to the specialists.

You do not tamper with evidence. You let the specialists collect the info. And that takes weeks if done correctly.

Your explanation sounds valid, and if that's in fact the case, I can understand why they didn't go through the phone.

However, in this case, the police actually answered a burglary suspect's cell phone to catch him:
Quote:The victim gave the suspect's phone to police. When the suspect called his own phone to try to get it back, an officer answered.

"The suspect gave a bogus name and said his phone had been stolen," DeSpain said.

The officer gave a bogus name back to the suspect, said he found his phone, and made arrangements to meet.

"The officer in plain clothes had uniformed officers set up a perimeter, and the suspect walked right into it," DeSpain said.

http://m.host.madison.com/mobile/article...03286.html
03-29-2012 02:50 PM
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jariel Offline
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Post: #233
RE: How ALEC Took Florida's 'License to Kill' Law National
Zimmerman At The Police Station



03-29-2012 03:16 PM
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assman Offline
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Post: #234
RE: How ALEC Took Florida's 'License to Kill' Law National
(03-29-2012 02:42 PM)jariel Wrote:  I think you and I can mutually agree that out of everybody involved in this situation, Zimmerman has the greatest incentive to lie.
Sure, I agree with that.

But that doesn't necessarily mean he is lying or that those with lesser incentives to lie are not lying. All I'm saying is that we shouldn't rush to judgment. The entire thing is a tragedy, from Trayvon's death, to the fact that a man who hasn't even been charged is living in fear for his and his family's life (and if he gets off either by virtue of no charges pressed or a not guilty verdict, he will have to live in fear the rest of his life).

Look, my biggest issue here is the media, and secondarily, the so-called black leadership (who I happen to think do a huge disservice to the black community, but that's the black community's fight, not mine). I just don't want to see the anti-gun koolaid drinkers use the public's emotional reaction to sweep through bad legislation that encroaches on law abiding citizens' right to self-defense.
(This post was last modified: 03-29-2012 03:48 PM by assman.)
03-29-2012 03:44 PM
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jariel Offline
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Post: #235
RE: How ALEC Took Florida's 'License to Kill' Law National
I understand your point of view, and agree that some parties in this clearly have agendas.

On another note:

Quote:The racist smear campaign against Trayvon Martin, the unarmed black teen shot to death last month in Florida, has reached a new level of ghoulishness. A white supremacist hacker says he's broken into Martin's email and social networking accounts, and leaked his private Facebook messages. We've been able to confirm that at least one email account that belonged to Martin was cracked.

The hacker, who goes by the name Klanklannon, posted what he said were Martin's private Facebook messages to the politics section (NSFW) of the anarchic message board 4chan—called "/pol/"—Tuesday afternoon at around noon. The messages were posted on four slides, strategically arranged to back up the insane racist argument that Trayvon was a Scary Black Teenager and so somehow deserved to be killed by neighborhood watch captain George Zimmerman that night.

http://gawker.com/5897485/white-supremac...ges-online

I called this out several days ago when individuals were posting fake pictures and other information they had found on other websites.
03-29-2012 03:57 PM
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JayMillz Offline
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Post: #236
RE: How ALEC Took Florida's 'License to Kill' Law National
(03-29-2012 01:06 PM)Blackhawk Wrote:  [Image: Zimmerman-ABC-video-enhanced-caption.jpg]

The above pic is clearly doctored. The ceiling lights look like they are shinning on his head. Software is used to accentuate this. The source of the pic is a conservative website, which may have an agenda. http://dailycaller.com/

The video you posted doesn't seem to show anything serious. However, an officer does check his head for something, but there is no indication of what it is or if it is something related or serious.
03-29-2012 04:06 PM
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jariel Offline
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Post: #237
RE: How ALEC Took Florida's 'License to Kill' Law National
(03-29-2012 04:06 PM)JayMillz Wrote:  
(03-29-2012 01:06 PM)Blackhawk Wrote:  [Image: Zimmerman-ABC-video-enhanced-caption.jpg]

The above pic is clearly doctored. The ceiling lights look like they are shinning on his head. Software is used to accentuate this. The source of the pic is a conservative website, which may have an agenda. http://dailycaller.com/

The video you posted doesn't seem to show anything serious. However, an officer does check his head for something, but there is no indication of what it is or if it is something related or serious.

Based off the time stamp on the video, he was at the police station 35 minutes after the shooting, for him to be in the condition he appears to be in less than an hour after the incident is definitely head-scratching.
03-29-2012 04:13 PM
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JayMillz Offline
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Post: #238
RE: How ALEC Took Florida's 'License to Kill' Law National
(03-29-2012 04:13 PM)jariel Wrote:  Based off the time stamp on the video, he was at the police station 35 minutes after the shooting, for him to be in the condition he appears to be in less than an hour after the incident is definitely head-scratching.

Trayvon's phone call contradicts Zimmerman's claim.
(This post was last modified: 03-29-2012 04:39 PM by JayMillz.)
03-29-2012 04:30 PM
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Hotwheels Offline
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Post: #239
RE: How ALEC Took Florida's 'License to Kill' Law National
(03-29-2012 04:06 PM)JayMillz Wrote:  
(03-29-2012 01:06 PM)Blackhawk Wrote:  [Image: Zimmerman-ABC-video-enhanced-caption.jpg]

The above pic is clearly doctored. The ceiling lights look like they are shinning on his head. Software is used to accentuate this. The source of the pic is a conservative website, which may have an agenda. http://dailycaller.com/

The video you posted doesn't seem to show anything serious. However, an officer does check his head for something, but there is no indication of what it is or if it is something related or serious.

Yet Nancy Grace and the funeral director (not a medical examiner btw) hired by the family are to be considered above reproach? I think not.

In looking at the two photos it appears to me that all they did was lighten the photo overall. Everything in the pic is brighter, not just his head.

Saying that, I have always been amazed at the low quality cameras used for video surveillance as it's often difficult to even ID someone from the images they put out.

Also, concerning the varying accounts of who was shouting for help answer this; One guy has a broken nose, a laceration to the back of his head, grass stains on his back, etc while one has a single bullet hole in his chest.

Who is more likely to be screaming for help?

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03-29-2012 04:56 PM
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Brian Offline
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Post: #240
RE: How ALEC Took Florida's 'License to Kill' Law National
Its gotten to the point where you could show some guys on this forum a FBI certified video of Trayvon ambushing him, knocking him down, and slamming his head into the concrete and they would claim the video was racist and its Zimmermans fault for getting out of bed that day and having the nerve to leave the house.
03-29-2012 06:04 PM
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Hotwheels Offline
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RE: How ALEC Took Florida's 'License to Kill' Law National
If not for the forum I wouldn't even know about this incident and really don't give two shits about who did what. People kill each other every day. Whites, blacks, yellows, reds, greens, purples. Color doesn't matter until certain people and the media decide it helps their cause and/or income.

It is clear from reading this thread however that some place more importance on the color of a persons skin than the facts as presented. The sad fact of that is all it does is perpetrate the racist actions and stereotypes they purportedly want to squash.

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03-29-2012 06:37 PM
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jariel Offline
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Post: #242
RE: How ALEC Took Florida's 'License to Kill' Law National
A new witness has come forward and was interviewed on CNN a few minutes ago by Anderson Cooper.

This witness establishes that entire incident took place in a grass area. He also noted that afterwards Zimmerman casually walked away and didn't appear to be injured or anything of the sort.

It's not looking good for Zimmerman's story.
03-29-2012 07:26 PM
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JayMillz Offline
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RE: How ALEC Took Florida's 'License to Kill' Law National
I don't know about other people, but I've been in street fights and I've seen people get their ass kicked in street fights. In a serious street fight its very rare to see someone look so composed and unscathed as Z. In addition, as jariel posted out, it seems to make no sense for this kid to want to kill Z, out of the blue - and then Z looks pretty normal within an hour after killing someone. Just doesn't make sense.
03-29-2012 07:29 PM
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jariel Offline
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RE: How ALEC Took Florida's 'License to Kill' Law National
(03-29-2012 07:29 PM)JayMillz Wrote:  I don't know about other people, but I've been in street fights and I've seen people get their ass kicked in street fights. In a serious street fight its very rare to see someone look so composed and unscathed as Z. In addition, as jariel posted out, it seems to make no sense for this kid to want to kill Z, out of the blue - and then Z looks pretty normal within an hour after killing someone. Just doesn't make sense.

Some of the quotes Zimmerman alleges that came from Trayvon:

In response to Zimmerman's response as to whether or not he has a problem:
"Well you do now."

In response to seeing Zimmerman's gun:
"You're going to die tonight." or "You're going to die now."

In response to being shot (his final words):
"You got me."

Sounds like a cheesy Steven Segal movie, not the words of a young kid who just walked to 7-11 for some candy and a iced tea, and has been approached in the middle of the night by a stranger with gun while talking to his girlfriend on the phone.
(This post was last modified: 03-29-2012 07:43 PM by jariel.)
03-29-2012 07:41 PM
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jariel Offline
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Post: #245
RE: How ALEC Took Florida's 'License to Kill' Law National
(03-29-2012 06:37 PM)Hotwheels Wrote:  If not for the forum I wouldn't even know about this incident and really don't give two shits about who did what. People kill each other every day. Whites, blacks, yellows, reds, greens, purples. Color doesn't matter until certain people and the media decide it helps their cause and/or income.

Such a cynical attitude can only come from a person who doesn't have to deal with racism in this country.

This story is important because Black people have to deal with the reality that they can get shot by the police during a routine traffic stop if they reach for their wallet too fast and nobody will give a damn.

The last thing that is needed for their collective psyche is the feeling that now they can get murdered by regular non-black citizens and still no one will give a damn.

People are fighting daily just to seek justice for Trayvon. This effort is not needed for the JonBenet Ramseys and Lacey Petersons of this society. You sir don't have to protest all over the country just to ensure there's at least a proper, thorough investigation when your sisters, mothers, etc. fall victim to heinous crimes.

I respect your right to not care about this case, but other people who understand that they could find themselves in the same situation as Trayvon have the right to do so.
(This post was last modified: 03-29-2012 07:58 PM by jariel.)
03-29-2012 07:55 PM
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Hotwheels Offline
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Post: #246
RE: How ALEC Took Florida's 'License to Kill' Law National
I'm leaving this thread for the same reason I was hesitant for so long to join it; I don't care to be called or implied a racist because I am white and refuse to jump to conclusions based solely on the race of the victims involved in the crime, helped along by the pot stirring media.

btw Jariel, I've had a cop pull a gun on me during a routine traffic stop.

It doesn't only happen to "minorities", no matter what you may think.

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03-29-2012 08:46 PM
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Screwston Offline
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Post: #247
RE: How ALEC Took Florida's 'License to Kill' Law National
Did they arrest that damn mexican yet
03-29-2012 08:51 PM
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Mr.GM Offline
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RE: How ALEC Took Florida's 'License to Kill' Law National
Looking from the outside, it is crystal clear that the media\politics is trying to divide the US in a election year. Sad thing to see.

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03-29-2012 09:39 PM
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Brian Offline
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Post: #249
RE: How ALEC Took Florida's 'License to Kill' Law National
Maybe Zimmerman was scared because he remembered hearing about this case...

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03-29-2012 10:29 PM
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Brian Offline
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RE: How ALEC Took Florida's 'License to Kill' Law National
(03-29-2012 07:41 PM)jariel Wrote:  
(03-29-2012 07:29 PM)JayMillz Wrote:  I don't know about other people, but I've been in street fights and I've seen people get their ass kicked in street fights. In a serious street fight its very rare to see someone look so composed and unscathed as Z. In addition, as jariel posted out, it seems to make no sense for this kid to want to kill Z, out of the blue - and then Z looks pretty normal within an hour after killing someone. Just doesn't make sense.

Some of the quotes Zimmerman alleges that came from Trayvon:

In response to Zimmerman's response as to whether or not he has a problem:
"Well you do now."

In response to seeing Zimmerman's gun:
"You're going to die tonight." or "You're going to die now."

In response to being shot (his final words):
"You got me."

Sounds like a cheesy Steven Segal movie, not the words of a young kid who just walked to 7-11 for some candy and a iced tea, and has been approached in the middle of the night by a stranger with gun while talking to his girlfriend on the phone.

considering his twitter name was "NO_LIMIT_NIGGA" i could completely imagine those things coming out of his little gangster wanna be mouth. face it - the kid was a fucking hoodlum. you can change his background from black kid from miami to white kid from arkansas to mexican from SoCal or Asian from wherever and it really doesnt matter. the kid was a fucking punk because he was a fucking punk, not because he was black, and if you really think he was some sweet innocent kid minding his own business out for an iced tea you're in denial. if we've gotten to the point you call a fucking punk a fucking punk and you are deemed racist its a lost cause. unfortunately thats what its come to.
03-29-2012 10:36 PM
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