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How ALEC Took Florida's 'License to Kill' Law National
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JayMillz Offline
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Post: #201
RE: How ALEC Took Florida's 'License to Kill' Law National
NO BLOOD OR BRUISES ON ZIMMERMAN!

http://abcnews.go.com/WN/trayvon-martin-...3PBHXgqM02
03-28-2012 08:57 PM
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jariel Offline
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Post: #202
RE: How ALEC Took Florida's 'License to Kill' Law National
(03-28-2012 08:57 PM)JayMillz Wrote:  NO BLOOD OR BRUISES ON ZIMMERMAN!

http://abcnews.go.com/WN/trayvon-martin-...3PBHXgqM02

The funeral director who prepared Trayvon's body also stated today that there wasn't any sign of physical trauma on his hands.

http://nancygrace.blogs.cnn.com/2012/03/...hpt=ng_mid
03-28-2012 09:21 PM
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Excelsior Offline
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Post: #203
RE: How ALEC Took Florida's 'License to Kill' Law National
(03-28-2012 01:58 PM)Brian Wrote:  All of that is heresay. How would Trayvon know he was armed? Was he open carrying? Nope. Are you in a position to describe the mood of Zimmerman at the time of the encounter? Nope. And if he ran, at what point when he was running did he break his nose, mount him, and slam his head into the concrete?

Honestly, what do you think gives you the right to go on about hearsay? 90% of what you've said in this thread has also been hearsay, including the last sentence in this post.

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03-28-2012 11:58 PM
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Excelsior Offline
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Post: #204
RE: How ALEC Took Florida's 'License to Kill' Law National
(03-28-2012 09:21 PM)jariel Wrote:  
(03-28-2012 08:57 PM)JayMillz Wrote:  NO BLOOD OR BRUISES ON ZIMMERMAN!

http://abcnews.go.com/WN/trayvon-martin-...3PBHXgqM02

The funeral director who prepared Trayvon's body also stated today that there wasn't any sign of physical trauma on his hands.

http://nancygrace.blogs.cnn.com/2012/03/...hpt=ng_mid

(03-28-2012 08:57 PM)JayMillz Wrote:  NO BLOOD OR BRUISES ON ZIMMERMAN!

http://abcnews.go.com/WN/trayvon-martin-...3PBHXgqM02

And yet many were very quick to buy into the notion that Trayvon was, in fact, a no-good thug who did instigate violence against Zimmerman for no reason, and somehow managed to beat him the up with no provocation. Hell, our friend Brian here seemed quite thoroughly convinced of this unsubstantiated scenario, even as he went on accusing everyone else of hearsay. He wasn't the only one, here or elsewhere.

I wonder why folks were so quick to come to that conclusion? Dodgy

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03-29-2012 12:11 AM
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Brian Offline
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Post: #205
RE: How ALEC Took Florida's 'License to Kill' Law National
I dont really think those videos proved anything. From the time he first got hit to the time he got to the station he had been treated by the Fire Dept. its not that hard to stop a cut from bleeding. id be curiuos to see if there are xrays taken of the broken nose. but if they guy was taking a brief, but brutal ass kicking before firing its possible all the cosmetic damage of that ass kicking was treated at the scene before/while/during he was under arrest. i'd be curious to hear more about his nose and if it was really fractured and they can prove that then that will be the clincher in my opinion.
03-29-2012 12:34 AM
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Brian Offline
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Post: #206
RE: How ALEC Took Florida's 'License to Kill' Law National
(03-28-2012 11:58 PM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  
(03-28-2012 01:58 PM)Brian Wrote:  All of that is heresay. How would Trayvon know he was armed? Was he open carrying? Nope. Are you in a position to describe the mood of Zimmerman at the time of the encounter? Nope. And if he ran, at what point when he was running did he break his nose, mount him, and slam his head into the concrete?

Honestly, what do you think gives you the right to go on about hearsay? 90% of what you've said in this thread has also been hearsay, including the last sentence in this post.

most (if not all) of what i'm saying has been taken from police reports or witness statements.
03-29-2012 12:35 AM
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Brian Offline
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Post: #207
RE: How ALEC Took Florida's 'License to Kill' Law National
(03-28-2012 09:21 PM)jariel Wrote:  
(03-28-2012 08:57 PM)JayMillz Wrote:  NO BLOOD OR BRUISES ON ZIMMERMAN!

http://abcnews.go.com/WN/trayvon-martin-...3PBHXgqM02

The funeral director who prepared Trayvon's body also stated today that there wasn't any sign of physical trauma on his hands.

http://nancygrace.blogs.cnn.com/2012/03/...hpt=ng_mid

i really wouldnt expect there to be. he landed one good clean punch to the nose/face are of zimmerman, knocked him down, then started trying to smash his head into the concrete like a monkey opening a coconut. that one good clean punch landed properly w/the right part of the fist in the nose area of the face wont mark your hands up.
03-29-2012 12:38 AM
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El Rey Offline
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Post: #208
RE: How ALEC Took Florida's 'License to Kill' Law National
(03-29-2012 12:38 AM)Brian Wrote:  
(03-28-2012 09:21 PM)jariel Wrote:  
(03-28-2012 08:57 PM)JayMillz Wrote:  NO BLOOD OR BRUISES ON ZIMMERMAN!

http://abcnews.go.com/WN/trayvon-martin-...3PBHXgqM02

The funeral director who prepared Trayvon's body also stated today that there wasn't any sign of physical trauma on his hands.

http://nancygrace.blogs.cnn.com/2012/03/...hpt=ng_mid

i really wouldnt expect there to be. he landed one good clean punch to the nose/face are of zimmerman, knocked him down, then started trying to smash his head into the concrete like a monkey opening a coconut. that one good clean punch landed properly w/the right part of the fist in the nose area of the face wont mark your hands up.

'Like a monkey opening a coconut...' We all see what you did there. Shitty troll is shitty troll
03-29-2012 01:44 AM
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JayMillz Offline
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Post: #209
RE: How ALEC Took Florida's 'License to Kill' Law National
(03-29-2012 12:34 AM)Brian Wrote:  I dont really think those videos proved anything. From the time he first got hit to the time he got to the station he had been treated by the Fire Dept. its not that hard to stop a cut from bleeding. id be curiuos to see if there are xrays taken of the broken nose. but if they guy was taking a brief, but brutal ass kicking before firing its possible all the cosmetic damage of that ass kicking was treated at the scene before/while/during he was under arrest.

Ideologues like you wouldn't admit to seeing anything beyond what suits your agenda.

That being said, the video doesn't show any blood stains on his shirt. The video also shows the cop searching him without gloves on, which wouldn't make sense if there ever was blood present and is also contaminating the DNA evidence, which just further shows incompetence by these officers.

Zimmerman doesn't look like he has been in serious fight. For instance, he casually gets out of the police car unassisted which is unusual and on top of that he has his shirt tucked in his pants. For someone that just stalked, hunted down, and killed someone, and was in a life threatening scuffle this looks unusual.

If you buy any of Zimmerman's story, one might wonder if he misperceived the threat, which could be a fundamental problem with his defense. None of this evidence corroborates Zimmerman's story.
03-29-2012 05:30 AM
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assman Offline
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Post: #210
RE: How ALEC Took Florida's 'License to Kill' Law National
(03-29-2012 12:11 AM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  Hell, our friend Brian here seemed quite thoroughly convinced of this unsubstantiated scenario, even as he went on accusing everyone else of hearsay. He wasn't the only one, here or elsewhere.
Really? Who else?

Seems like a few of us have been arguing don't jump to conclusions because we just don't know all the facts. I acknowledged that it's possible this was a totally unjustified shooting.

And you really can't blame people, including Brian, for relying on evidence released by the police (grass stains, blood on the back of his head, etc.).

Anyway, back on topic, I would agree that from that video, Zimmerman doesn't look very injured, but as Brian points out, this could be due to on the scene treatment. Given how clues and evidence are being released/discovered bit by bit in this case, jumping on every single piece of new info to conclude guilt or innocence seems a bit silly, IMO.

I would remind everyone about Tawana Brawley and the Duke rape case as two prominent examples of cases where the media came out with very slanted stories that all but proclaimed the accuseds' guilt and that promptly blew up in everyone's face. Not saying that's going to happen here, but until we know all the facts, seems a bit silly to go 'all in' on either side.
03-29-2012 07:31 AM
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assman Offline
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RE: How ALEC Took Florida's 'License to Kill' Law National
Yet another example for the anti-carry crowd; from yesterday: http://www.wistv.com/story/17268833/fair...charleston

This kind of thing happens every single day, but doesn't get a lot of media attention. And instances where the armed, law abiding citizen uses his/her firearm to scare off the would-be criminal with no shots fired are even more common, and get little or no media attention at all. The anti-carry crowd would place law abiding citizens at the mercy of the criminals.
(This post was last modified: 03-29-2012 09:35 AM by assman.)
03-29-2012 09:16 AM
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Samseau Offline
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Post: #212
RE: How ALEC Took Florida's 'License to Kill' Law National
It would be a shame if they banned guns because of one crazy asshole who shot an innocent man.



As for those videos: The quality of the film is so low you can't make out shit. It would be impossible to see any abrasions on Zimmerman.


Also: I thought he wasn't arrested? Turns out he was arrested and brought into the station?


Seriously, what the fuck is going on? This is as bad the Duke lacrosse case. It's all bullshit.

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03-29-2012 09:20 AM
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Brian Offline
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Post: #213
RE: How ALEC Took Florida's 'License to Kill' Law National
that Charleston case was ridiculous and another good reason why you need to be able to protect yourself - the criminals dont respect gun laws.

Samseau - he was arrested and brought to the station where he was questioned but never actually charged because the evidence matches up w/his story, and his story was w/in the rule of law.
03-29-2012 09:27 AM
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jariel Offline
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Post: #214
RE: How ALEC Took Florida's 'License to Kill' Law National
(03-29-2012 07:31 AM)assman Wrote:  Anyway, back on topic, I would agree that from that video, Zimmerman doesn't look very injured, but as Brian points out, this could be due to on the scene treatment. Given how clues and evidence are being released/discovered bit by bit in this case, jumping on every single piece of new info to conclude guilt or innocence seems a bit silly, IMO.

On the scene treatment in the back of a police cruiser is not performed by a plastic surgeon.

He claimed to have injuries that you just can't clean up with some soap and a wet rag, and there are no signs of injury, moreover, there are no signs of treatment, i.e. bandages, gauze pads, etc. which would be necessary to contain the bleeding from any injuries.

How is there nothing on his nose or lip even though he claimed the former was broken and the latter was busted?

JayMillz made the very astute observation of the tucked-in shirt. This guy looks like he just came back from Olive Garden. He doesn't in any way, shape, or form look like a man who's just been in a fight for his life, and he's awfully calm for someone who just took another person's life.

I think some people are trying to rationalize all this information so that it continues to fit their desired view of this incident, but what's really happening here is that his version of the events just don't add up.

This man potentially committed murder, why would anyone believe his tale of the events -- without corroboration of independent evidence -- when out of anyone in this situation, he has the greatest incentive to be dishonest?
03-29-2012 09:31 AM
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Brian Offline
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Post: #215
RE: How ALEC Took Florida's 'License to Kill' Law National
(03-29-2012 09:31 AM)jariel Wrote:  
(03-29-2012 07:31 AM)assman Wrote:  Anyway, back on topic, I would agree that from that video, Zimmerman doesn't look very injured, but as Brian points out, this could be due to on the scene treatment. Given how clues and evidence are being released/discovered bit by bit in this case, jumping on every single piece of new info to conclude guilt or innocence seems a bit silly, IMO.

I think some people are trying to rationalize all this information so that it continues to fit their desired view of this incident, but what's really happening here is that his version of the events just don't add up.

Yes - you, Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, etc. Unless you can zoom in on his face you really dont know whether his nose was broken or not. And he received treatment from the paramedics at the scene for his cuts so getting the bleeding stopped was no big accomplishment.
03-29-2012 09:37 AM
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Kaizen Offline
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Post: #216
RE: How ALEC Took Florida's 'License to Kill' Law National
Zims lawyer be taking some ish...said his 'wounds' healed quickly so he didnt need to go the hospital. WTF

My guess is his version is entirely made up. he likely stepped up to him got scared and started firing
03-29-2012 12:02 PM
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Blackhawk Offline
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Post: #217
RE: How ALEC Took Florida's 'License to Kill' Law National
(03-28-2012 09:21 PM)jariel Wrote:  The funeral director who prepared Trayvon's body also stated today that there wasn't any sign of physical trauma on his hands.

http://nancygrace.blogs.cnn.com/2012/03/...hpt=ng_mid

[Image: 1c.jpg]

I wouldn't call Richard Kurtz eagle eyed. He couldn't see trauma on the hands, but he also couldn't even tell where the bullet was:

"Richard Kurtz of Roy Mizell and Kurtz Funeral Home in Fort Lauderdale said there appeared to be a gunshot wound in Martin’s upper chest area, but he received the body after the autopsy was completed so it was difficult to tell whether he had other injuries. He also could not determine the bullet’s entry or exit point." (source)

Although in Kurtz defense, Trayvon's body was pretty old by the time it got to him. It was autopsied, then sat in a city morgue tagged as John Doe for three days before it was even identified and claimed by the family. Trayvon left home without any ID. Or wallet. Or anything. Strange, since Florida grants drivers permits at age 15. And yet no drivers license or permit, no student ID, no ATM card, not even a library card. He had nothing with his name printed on it on his entire person. As if he was planning that if he were arrested he didn't want the police to be able to identify him in any way.

Also, why did they use a funeral parlor in Fort Lauderdale, FL? That's 233 miles away from Sanford, FL.

But no one expects funeral directors to be unbiased. They're paid by the family. Of course he's going to parrot whatever the family tells him.

Meanwhile, the police video may show head injury after all. Hard to tell with low res video like this.

[Image: Zimmerman-ABC-video-enhanced-caption.jpg]

"Alpha children wear grey. They work much harder than we do, because they're so frightfully clever. I'm awfully glad I'm a Beta, because I don't work so hard. And then we are much better than the Gammas and Deltas. Gammas are stupid. They all wear green, and Delta children wear khaki. Oh no, I don't want to play with Delta children. And Epsilons are still worse. They're too stupid to be able to read or write. Besides they wear black, which is such a beastly color. I'm so glad I'm a Beta."
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(This post was last modified: 03-29-2012 01:23 PM by Blackhawk.)
03-29-2012 01:06 PM
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Beyond Borders Away
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Post: #218
RE: How ALEC Took Florida's 'License to Kill' Law National
(03-29-2012 12:11 AM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  And yet many were very quick to buy into the notion that Trayvon was, in fact, a no-good thug who did instigate violence against Zimmerman for no reason, and somehow managed to beat him the up with no provocation.

There's far too much "us vs. them" mentality involved in this issue.

I didn't see a lot of people saying that. I don't think there were too many people in this thread saying Zimmerman was definitely innocent aside from one and possibly two.

There were a lot of people here, however, arguing for clarity and waiting for the facts before jumping to conclusions. There were a lot of people saying that baby-faced photographs do not an innocent make and that there was a lot more to this case than met the eye - including what was said in those police reports that may or may not have been misleading.

I still stand by my insistence that people shouldn't be so quick to judge about something they don't know about. And here's the thing, no matter who is right or wrong in this case, that still stands true. I personally don't have a dog in this fight whatsoever.

I do have a dog in the fight for justice.

It's human nature to band together and hurt people based on hasty assumptions, rumours, and all-together pack mentality. And no matter what happened that night, it's important keep that in check so innocent people don't get hurt by our society.

And as far as facts, we still don't have them all yet. I would say the same whether they were portraying Zimmerman as guilty or innocent, as racist or not. As the guy mentioned above, evidence will be released bit by bit (and doesn't that work awesome in the media's agenda to get the most bang for their buck), so the public has a lot more to learn.

Obviously, they will eventually come out. So just wait and see is all I'm saying. None of us were there, none of us have talked with the police or anyone involved, and none of us know what the hell really went down.

I predict the coverage of this case will include a lot of back and forth and playing on people's emotions. Those of you who are going to post a verdict every time a new twist emerges have a lot of work ahead of you this year...

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(This post was last modified: 03-29-2012 01:20 PM by Beyond Borders.)
03-29-2012 01:09 PM
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Beyond Borders Away
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Post: #219
RE: How ALEC Took Florida's 'License to Kill' Law National
duplicate post

Beyond All Seas

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.
To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes
frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Kipling
(This post was last modified: 03-29-2012 01:23 PM by Beyond Borders.)
03-29-2012 01:22 PM
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JayMillz Offline
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Post: #220
RE: How ALEC Took Florida's 'License to Kill' Law National
(03-29-2012 01:06 PM)Blackhawk Wrote:  It was autopsied, then sat in a city morgue tagged as John Doe for three days before it was even identified and claimed by the family. Trayvon left home without any ID. Or wallet. Or anything. Strange, since Florida grants drivers permits at age 15. And yet no drivers license or permit, no student ID, no ATM card, not even a library card. He had nothing with his name printed on it on his entire person. As if he was planning that if he were arrested he didn't want the police to be able to identify him in any way.

Is this the propaganda being put out by Fox News and the Koch Brothers?

One thing we do know is that Trayvon had his cell phone with him, which is just one of the easy ways I could think of for the police to identify him. Why he sat around as a John Doe for 3 days may raise more questions about police incompetence than it does about why Trayvon didn't have his YMCA card with him when he was murdered.

The “Partial Report Only” that was completed at 3:07 a.m. on Feb. 27 lists Trayvon’s full name, city of birth, address and phone number. How did police get that information if they didn't know who he was? http://www.washingtonpost.com/r/2010-201...Report.pdf
(This post was last modified: 03-29-2012 01:40 PM by JayMillz.)
03-29-2012 01:22 PM
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Blackhawk Offline
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Post: #221
RE: How ALEC Took Florida's 'License to Kill' Law National
>Is this the propaganda being put out by Fox News and the Koch Brothers?

Show some respect. That kind of personal attack against another forum member is both unwanted here and boring.

>One thing we do know is that Trayvon had his cell phone with him

SPD did contact T-mobile to pull the phone records. But pulling phone records less than 180 days old takes probable cause and a warrant from a judge. Which takes a long time to do. It's called having a right to privacy.

When I've seen phone records pulled, it generally takes 2-4 weeks for the phone provider to respond, depending on which provider it is. And the phone provider's legal staff are very, very picky that all the paperwork is filled out completely and correctly. There's been too breeches of personal privacy in the past by people pretending to have warrants that didn't, or people using a "friend in the police department" to check up on a spouse they thought was fooling around on them. So now they don't care if you're the police, or the President of the United States. If you can't document your paper trail of having probable cause and a legal warrant issued, you get nothing. Which is exactly how it should be.

>The “Partial Report Only”

The print date on that report was March 6 2012 at 13:45pm, well after they had his identify finally established. It appears they revised the report once they had his identity established sometime before March 6 2012.

"Alpha children wear grey. They work much harder than we do, because they're so frightfully clever. I'm awfully glad I'm a Beta, because I don't work so hard. And then we are much better than the Gammas and Deltas. Gammas are stupid. They all wear green, and Delta children wear khaki. Oh no, I don't want to play with Delta children. And Epsilons are still worse. They're too stupid to be able to read or write. Besides they wear black, which is such a beastly color. I'm so glad I'm a Beta."
--Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
(This post was last modified: 03-29-2012 01:59 PM by Blackhawk.)
03-29-2012 01:41 PM
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Brian Offline
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Post: #222
RE: How ALEC Took Florida's 'License to Kill' Law National
damn, thats a nasty gash on the back of his head. do you know people have died in fights from going down and having their head hit concrete? its obvious his life was in danger.
03-29-2012 01:48 PM
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jariel Offline
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Post: #223
RE: How ALEC Took Florida's 'License to Kill' Law National
(03-29-2012 01:41 PM)Blackhawk Wrote:  Good catch! Why couldn't they find the address of his family?

You're analyzing without even a basic understanding of facts.

Trayvon is from Miami.

The funeral was here, so obviously a funeral parlor close to home would be used.

Depending on where you live in Miami, Ft. Lauderdale could be anything from a 5-40 minute trip away.

Also as to his cellphone, he had "Mom", "Dad", and "Auntie" programmed into his phone, maybe there is a legal procedure the police had to go through to actually get into his phone, but if not, there is no legitimate excuse for not contacting them.

Your comments on Richard Kurtz, who has years of experience working with the bodies of individuals who have been victims of homicide, are not worth rebutting.
(This post was last modified: 03-29-2012 01:58 PM by jariel.)
03-29-2012 01:56 PM
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assman Offline
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RE: How ALEC Took Florida's 'License to Kill' Law National
(03-29-2012 01:56 PM)jariel Wrote:  Your comments on Richard Kurtz, who has years of experience working with the bodies of individuals who have been victims of homicide, are not worth rebutting.
Oh really?

He can't determine where a bullet entered the body, but he can definitively say that there was no trauma to the hands. And that's not worth questioning???

Every piece of data that supports jariel's and JayMillz' views is trumpted as 'aha! Zimmerman is guilty!' and every piece of evidence that goes the other way is fabricated by the police/Zimmerman/his friends. I figure everyone reading this thread can make up their own minds about who is being objective and who is jumping to conclusions.
(This post was last modified: 03-29-2012 02:07 PM by assman.)
03-29-2012 02:06 PM
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assman Offline
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Post: #225
RE: How ALEC Took Florida's 'License to Kill' Law National
Seneca police arrest 6 accused of beating NC man
http://www.foxcarolina.com/story/1728489...ing-nc-man

Possible hate crime. Do we even need to ask how much noise this case would be making if the races were reversed?

Does pointing this out make me a racist?
03-29-2012 02:10 PM
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