Read The Forum Rules: We have a clear set of rules to keep the forum running smoothly. Click here to review them.

Post Reply 
Olympic Lifts
Author Message
reaper23 Offline
Banned

Posts: 1,108
Joined: Feb 2012
Post: #26
RE: Olympic Lifts
if you "DO" olympic lifts, i.e. train for them there are many other lifts and protocols that go into it other than simply snatching and cleaning all day.

accessory lifts such as deadlift, powerclean, front squat, overhead squat, push jerks to name a few all build the strength necessary to perform olympic lifts.

for most folks here, performing a clean is going to get them stronger.

i just dont get how cleaning a weight off the ground and then standing up with it isnt going to get you stronger. do it with a heavy enough weight and there you go you're getting stronger.

and by the way, there are plenty of well known professionals would argue more eloquently than i would about the sport carry over from oly lifts.
07-21-2012 12:51 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
the chef Offline
Woodpecker
**

Posts: 491
Joined: Nov 2011
Reputation: 7
Post: #27
RE: Olympic Lifts
It's been well documented that Kobe's weight training routine revolves around Olympic lifts. Olympic lifts are also used heavily in the mma community in conjunction with high intensity cardio, roadwork, core work, calisthenics, etc.

How do they not make you stronger from a functional standpoint? If anything a typical bodybuilding routine just makes you good at bodybuilding... I mean that's the purpose of bodybuilding right? To train just for (primarily) aesthetics...

Why should an MMA fighter focus on bicep curls when he could be working on explosive strength with Olympic lifts?
07-21-2012 01:40 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Zeus Offline
Robin
*

Posts: 128
Joined: Feb 2012
Reputation: 6
Post: #28
RE: Olympic Lifts
(07-21-2012 10:57 AM)velkrum Wrote:  Perfecting your olympic lifts makes you a better olympic lifter.
  • It does little to improve your physique
  • it does little to improve strength
  • it does little to improve power, except for becoming a more powerful olympic lifter.
If you want to develop strong powerful legs
you would not prioritize box jumping over
squatting, lunging and doing various traditional strength exercises.

If you NEVER did an olympic lift and only trained like a traditional bodybuilder / powerlifter there would be no consequences or negative effects for that decision.
  • Are they fun to do ? yes
  • Are they necessary for developing an aesthetically balanced physique ? no
  • Will they make you stronger ? no
  • Do they carry over to improve sport performance ? no
  • Do they carry over to improve bench pressing / squatting / deadlifting performance ? no
  • Are they good for rehabilitation ? no

Olympic lifts do little to help anything other than getting good at olympic lifting.


This is all false information.

Reaper has more than pointed out how olympic lifters are the strongest people in the world. More than powerlifter because they don't use aids.

The olympic lifts develop all your nueral pathways. This means, you actually grow nerves to every single muscle fibre in your body. This is why they are so strong. The average person fires ~30% of their muscle fibres. OLY lifters develop and fire 100%.

Here is a picture of Josh Everett. He is the Strength and conditioning coach for UC Riverside not to mention finishing in the top 3 at the Crossfit games 3 years in a row. http://goo.gl/YrsNS Looks like a great physique

Strength. Being able to put 250kg over your head is strength. I don't know how you can dispute this.

Sport: Here's a study on the effects of Olympic lifting in sport. Cindy Schreyer introduced OLY lifting to her routine and she plays GOLF!. This was the only thing she changed. She increased her drive by 40yrds and won her first PGA tourny.
http://goo.gl/VHT31

There is so much more. I don't know where you're getting your info. It is ALL WRONG! Doing a simple search brings of studies upon studies. It's crazy!

Here's the downside to oly lifting. It is highly technical.

I would never allow anyone to do the snatch. Too hard to learn on your own, although the most beneficial. I would only do cleans and jerks. Front squats and deadlifts.
(This post was last modified: 07-21-2012 03:13 PM by Zeus.)
07-21-2012 03:11 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[-] The following 1 user Likes Zeus's post:
Laser
Roosh Offline
Eagle
*******

Posts: 19,309
Joined: Aug 2008
Reputation: 421
Post: #29
RE: Olympic Lifts
I got turned off a bit on squats after sustaining a groin injury that took me out for about 3 months. I never had that type of injury with machine style lifting. Though squats did make my thighs huge.

If you got the form down, you're set, but easier said than done.

Roosh
http://www.rooshv.com
07-21-2012 03:32 PM
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Brian Offline
Banned

Posts: 1,368
Joined: Jun 2009
Post: #30
RE: Olympic Lifts
(07-21-2012 03:32 PM)Roosh Wrote:  I got turned off a bit on squats after sustaining a groin injury that took me out for about 3 months. I never had that type of injury with machine style lifting. Though squats did make my thighs huge.

If you got the form down, you're set, but easier said than done.

how did you hurt your groin doing squats? groin injuries are usually from sports that involve running and changing directions. i've heard of lots of injuries from squats but they are usually back related.
07-21-2012 07:36 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Hencredible Casanova Offline
Banned

Posts: 3,852
Joined: Nov 2011
Post: #31
RE: Olympic Lifts
I like to clean, squat and deadlift but once i get my fix, I like to lay off the weights a bit and focus on calisthenics. That core strength is becoming increasingly important to me.
07-21-2012 07:48 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Roark Offline
Sparrow

Posts: 61
Joined: Aug 2011
Reputation: 0
Post: #32
RE: Olympic Lifts
(07-19-2012 10:03 PM)the chef Wrote:  As someone who enjoys sports I found olympic lifts to be more useful than the typical bodybuilding routine (not saying that athletes don't do bicep curls cause they do), but I feel as if Olympic lifts give you more bang for your buck. Learning these lifts with proper technique was definitely challenging but I definitely feel myself getting stronger.

What are your guys takes on Olympic lifts? Do you incorporate them into your workouts? Do you shy away from them? And if so, why?

Used to when I was wrestling. Now I'm not wrestling and do not do them. Keep in mind that when I was wrestling I was doing a lot more wrestling skills training and conditioning training than Olympic lifting.

If you are doing a sport, it might pay off in your sport to learn them properly and train them. You did not mention what sports you do and what your sport training routine is like. Most people are actually better off spending more time learning the technical skills of their sport and training other capacities such as endurance, metabolic conditioning, coordination, or whatever else your sport entails than spending time learning to do the Olympic lifts.

If you are not doing a sport, you should not be training them for physique reasons. You should train them purely because you like the sport of Olympic lifting. There are better ways to achieve the physique you're after.
07-22-2012 03:09 AM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Roark Offline
Sparrow

Posts: 61
Joined: Aug 2011
Reputation: 0
Post: #33
RE: Olympic Lifts
(07-21-2012 03:11 PM)Zeus Wrote:  Here is a picture of Josh Everett. He is the Strength and conditioning coach for UC Riverside not to mention finishing in the top 3 at the Crossfit games 3 years in a row. http://goo.gl/YrsNS Looks like a great physique

Here is an Olympic Sprinter http://doubleyourgains.com/wp-content/up...rinter.jpg

See him? Look. Therefore if you train like him you're going to look like him.

Another argument that certainly follows is that if you want a body like he has, the best thing for you to do to achieve his body as quick as possible would be to train like him.

If he trains his body to be as fast as possible at the 100m, and you want a body that looks like his, the worst thing you could would be to optimize your training to gain muscle and get a body like his. The best thing you could do would be to emulate his training which is aimed at getting faster. Training to get your body faster will give you the physique you want but training to get the physique you want will not get you the physique you want.

Sorry, I didn't do well at logic in school. Somebody please tell me this line of reasoning is correct.
07-22-2012 03:19 AM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Roosh Offline
Eagle
*******

Posts: 19,309
Joined: Aug 2008
Reputation: 421
Post: #34
RE: Olympic Lifts
(07-21-2012 07:36 PM)Brian Wrote:  
(07-21-2012 03:32 PM)Roosh Wrote:  I got turned off a bit on squats after sustaining a groin injury that took me out for about 3 months. I never had that type of injury with machine style lifting. Though squats did make my thighs huge.

If you got the form down, you're set, but easier said than done.

how did you hurt your groin doing squats? groin injuries are usually from sports that involve running and changing directions. i've heard of lots of injuries from squats but they are usually back related.

It's the inside of my thigh. I figure that's the groin.

What happened is that in gym A I didn't go all the way down with my squats, then in gym B I did because of the way the equipment was set up. Well I was going farther down on big weight, and there are muscles that only activate when you go low. Those muscles couldn't take the weight since they weren't getting trained in gym A.

It's like training to go halfway down on the bench press, and then with 300 pounds one day you decide to go all the way down. There is going to be a muscle that doesn't like that.

Roosh
http://www.rooshv.com
07-22-2012 08:14 AM
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
reaper23 Offline
Banned

Posts: 1,108
Joined: Feb 2012
Post: #35
RE: Olympic Lifts
(07-22-2012 08:14 AM)Roosh Wrote:  
(07-21-2012 07:36 PM)Brian Wrote:  
(07-21-2012 03:32 PM)Roosh Wrote:  I got turned off a bit on squats after sustaining a groin injury that took me out for about 3 months. I never had that type of injury with machine style lifting. Though squats did make my thighs huge.

If you got the form down, you're set, but easier said than done.

how did you hurt your groin doing squats? groin injuries are usually from sports that involve running and changing directions. i've heard of lots of injuries from squats but they are usually back related.

It's the inside of my thigh. I figure that's the groin.

What happened is that in gym A I didn't go all the way down with my squats, then in gym B I did because of the way the equipment was set up. Well I was going farther down on big weight, and there are muscles that only activate when you go low. Those muscles couldn't take the weight since they weren't getting trained in gym A.

It's like training to go halfway down on the bench press, and then with 300 pounds one day you decide to go all the way down. There is going to be a muscle that doesn't like that.

how do you mean, "how the equipment was set up" ?

the only thing you need for a squat is a rack to get it off of and clear space all around you.

you can always dump a squat off your back, no need for a spotter or smith machine or something

full depth is also critical for maintaining knee health
07-22-2012 08:41 AM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
ElJefe Offline
Pelican
****

Posts: 1,682
Joined: Aug 2011
Reputation: 25
Post: #36
RE: Olympic Lifts
(07-22-2012 08:41 AM)reaper23 Wrote:  
(07-22-2012 08:14 AM)Roosh Wrote:  It's the inside of my thigh. I figure that's the groin.

What happened is that in gym A I didn't go all the way down with my squats, then in gym B I did because of the way the equipment was set up. Well I was going farther down on big weight, and there are muscles that only activate when you go low. Those muscles couldn't take the weight since they weren't getting trained in gym A.

It's like training to go halfway down on the bench press, and then with 300 pounds one day you decide to go all the way down. There is going to be a muscle that doesn't like that.

how do you mean, "how the equipment was set up" ?

the only thing you need for a squat is a rack to get it off of and clear space all around you.

you can always dump a squat off your back, no need for a spotter or smith machine or something

full depth is also critical for maintaining knee health

The stress on the knees is greatest at the ninety-degree angle. You don't want to support heavy weight at that angle for very long.

As for squats, I'm willing to bet big bucks Roosh lacked some kind of mobility. Either hip or ankle. I'm struggling with squats as well. The problem is not the muscle - the muscle will repair itself pronto (given ample nutrition). The problem is the ligaments and lack of flexibility.

I only recently tuned into this. I feel like a total dork squatting with plates under my ankles, but it's totally necessary for me in order to maintain form.

In addition, I am starting to do various flexibility exercises to improve ankle and hip-mobility.

What I really like about this process it the learning curve. The rigourous demands of crossfit and olympic lifting require a more serious attitudeand respect towards your body's actual abilites and current limits.

I am incredibly inflexible in ways I never imagined. I have gone down in weight to address this and I can't wait to work my way back up, knowing I can do the weight all I need to practice is the "skill".

As for agility, I'm following DeFranco's "Agile-8". Simple and basic but effective.

Always be KISS'ing (keeping it simple, stupid)

A year from now you'll wish you started today
07-22-2012 09:31 AM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Brian Offline
Banned

Posts: 1,368
Joined: Jun 2009
Post: #37
RE: Olympic Lifts
(07-22-2012 08:14 AM)Roosh Wrote:  
(07-21-2012 07:36 PM)Brian Wrote:  
(07-21-2012 03:32 PM)Roosh Wrote:  I got turned off a bit on squats after sustaining a groin injury that took me out for about 3 months. I never had that type of injury with machine style lifting. Though squats did make my thighs huge.

If you got the form down, you're set, but easier said than done.

how did you hurt your groin doing squats? groin injuries are usually from sports that involve running and changing directions. i've heard of lots of injuries from squats but they are usually back related.

It's the inside of my thigh. I figure that's the groin.

What happened is that in gym A I didn't go all the way down with my squats, then in gym B I did because of the way the equipment was set up. Well I was going farther down on big weight, and there are muscles that only activate when you go low. Those muscles couldn't take the weight since they weren't getting trained in gym A.

It's like training to go halfway down on the bench press, and then with 300 pounds one day you decide to go all the way down. There is going to be a muscle that doesn't like that.

depends how high up the thigh. the groin is pretty far up - almost where leg starts
07-22-2012 11:26 AM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
velkrum Offline
Woodpecker
**

Posts: 491
Joined: Aug 2011
Reputation: 11
Post: #38
RE: Olympic Lifts
Groin injuries from squatting is caused by
improper hip warm ups.
07-22-2012 01:28 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
MikeCF Offline
Crow
*****
Gold Member

Posts: 4,116
Joined: Aug 2011
Reputation: 176
Post: #39
RE: Olympic Lifts
Wear compression shorts/underarmor to keep your hips warm and tight.

Those "runners tights" work great, too.

They keep your joints warm when doing legs.
07-22-2012 04:20 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[-] The following 2 users Like MikeCF's post:
NuMbEr7, Built to Fade
Sebastian Offline
Pelican
****

Posts: 1,447
Joined: Feb 2012
Reputation: 4
Post: #40
RE: Olympic Lifts
I want to work out this way. To me, it looks very basic form of workout (no machine, just barbell and plates) and manly.

You can't do this at the regular gym though.

I was thinking about joining crossfit since they do this kind of workout a lot.
I am not sure if it's worth to pay $120 a month so I can use their barbell and plates.....
07-22-2012 05:29 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
reaper23 Offline
Banned

Posts: 1,108
Joined: Feb 2012
Post: #41
RE: Olympic Lifts
(07-22-2012 05:29 PM)Sebastian Wrote:  I want to work out this way. To me, it looks very basic form of workout (no machine, just barbell and plates) and manly.

You can't do this at the regular gym though.

I was thinking about joining crossfit since they do this kind of workout a lot.
I am not sure if it's worth to pay $120 a month so I can use their barbell and plates.....

let me describe my crossfit gym to give you an idea what excellent is.

first of all, you have to attend 6 sessions of foundations, observe two sessions and pass a written exam to allowed into the main sessions.

then, every session has extensive warm up, mobility, and stretching.

if we're doing a lift that day the lift is reexplained set by step.

if it is cleans that day, then the warm up (bar only) involves each step with reps at each phase:
1) 5 reps of hips and shrug
2) 5 reps of high elbows
3) 5 reps of muscle clean
4) 5 reps of power clean
5) 5 reps power catch
6) 5 reps of squat catch
7) 5 reps full movement
all that two times through.

then you start with light weights and progress heavier.

each and every single rep is watched and coached. technique is paramount. you can not progress with weight unless your technique is perfect.

again, each and every rep is watched and coached.

and this is in a session with 20 people...there are at least two coaches on the floor and sometimes three.

then after the main lifts there is a short sprint work out like:
2000M on the rower
or 4 x 400M sprints
or some other high rep multi movement workout

and after all that a quick cool down and nightly stretching/mobility homework is assigned.

they record every rep, keep track of every weight you move, miss or fail. they know your maxes on every movement and keep track of every time in every workout.

It is $250/month and worth every single penny.

I explain all of this because there are a lot of SHIT Crossfit boxes out there (most in fact).

Be choosey with your money.
(This post was last modified: 07-22-2012 07:08 PM by reaper23.)
07-22-2012 07:06 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
dog24 Offline
Kingfisher
***

Posts: 538
Joined: Dec 2011
Reputation: 14
Post: #42
RE: Olympic Lifts
Anyone ever bought VS athletics shoes? Looks like a piece of crap but its the cheapest ive found will they be good enough for training?...... Also if anyone is really into weightlifting how come usa is so shitty at weightlifting but dominates every other sport? Is usada really that strict on their testing? Do olympians cycle on and off all the time? What do they commonly use?
07-22-2013 05:34 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
TheKantian Offline
Robin
*

Posts: 217
Joined: Jan 2013
Reputation: 1
Post: #43
RE: Olympic Lifts
(07-22-2013 05:34 PM)dog24 Wrote:  Anyone ever bought VS athletics shoes? Looks like a piece of crap but its the cheapest ive found will they be good enough for training?...... Also if anyone is really into weightlifting how come usa is so shitty at weightlifting but dominates every other sport? Is usada really that strict on their testing? Do olympians cycle on and off all the time? What do they commonly use?
Just buy do-win or adidas. I have a pair of adidas that I've been using for 8+ years and they are fine.
07-22-2013 05:45 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Ensam Offline
Ostrich
****
Gold Member

Posts: 1,917
Joined: Jan 2013
Reputation: 23
Post: #44
RE: Olympic Lifts
Yes, I have a pair of VSs - I've had them for years and I've never had a problem. They're pretty much only good for platform work but they've never let me down.

My old roommate went to olympic trials a few cycles ago. He said the main reason the US sucks is that we have a poor pipeline. Most olympic lifters come from other sports - there are a lot of ex-gymnasts and track athletes. In other countries olympic lifting is something kids get pipelined into in their early teens or younger. It also tends to draw the kinds of athletes who are also good at other sports that pay better and have more prestige. I wouldn't be surprised if a few NFLers couldn't put up numbers that were in world record territory.
07-22-2013 06:00 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
TheKantian Offline
Robin
*

Posts: 217
Joined: Jan 2013
Reputation: 1
Post: #45
RE: Olympic Lifts
(07-22-2013 06:00 PM)Ensam Wrote:  Yes, I have a pair of VSs - I've had them for years and I've never had a problem. They're pretty much only good for platform work but they've never let me down.

My old roommate went to olympic trials a few cycles ago. He said the main reason the US sucks is that we have a poor pipeline. Most olympic lifters come from other sports - there are a lot of ex-gymnasts and track athletes. In other countries olympic lifting is something kids get pipelined into in their early teens or younger. It also tends to draw the kinds of athletes who are also good at other sports that pay better and have more prestige. I wouldn't be surprised if a few NFLers couldn't put up numbers that were in world record territory.
I don't think any NFLer would come close to being a world record terrority.

The problem with olympic weightlifting is that it's a speciality sport and so it has a higher barrier of entry. You need the right equipment, and the right gym, and the right people around you. Other sports, like basketball, do not have such a high barrier of entry.
07-22-2013 06:18 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Ensam Offline
Ostrich
****
Gold Member

Posts: 1,917
Joined: Jan 2013
Reputation: 23
Post: #46
RE: Olympic Lifts
The equipment is pretty minimal, but I agree that you need the right people around you.

I should have clarified, I don't mean that an NFL guy could put up good numbers today, but if they'd started training olympic lifting in high school they'd be better than most of our current crop of lifters. Tell me that this guy wouldn't be on an offensive line if he'd gone to high school in the US:



07-22-2013 06:29 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
dog24 Offline
Kingfisher
***

Posts: 538
Joined: Dec 2011
Reputation: 14
Post: #47
RE: Olympic Lifts
I would buy adidas if i had the money... Thekantian thats a lot of time, what are your numbers? Also if you dont mind me asking whay does a regular routine look like? A lot of accesory work on the off season and bulgarian method before a comp? Porcentage training all the time? I was barely learning the basics before i got injured, but ive following the sport for some time now
07-22-2013 06:42 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
TheCaptainPower Offline
Banned

Posts: 668
Joined: Nov 2012
Post: #48
RE: Olympic Lifts
I just to do powerlifting competitions, and I was always taught that powerlifting started because it combined some bodybuilding with lifting heavy weights, compared to the olympic weigh lifting that didn't really develop your body.

Don't get me wrong, olympic lifting can get you into really good shape, but looks-wise I would stick with powerlifting. Bench press, squats, deadlifts, along with all your other exercises. Olympic lifters usually have decent legs and sometimes back, but it neglects too many bodyparts.
07-22-2013 06:47 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
RichieP Offline
Pelican
****

Posts: 1,449
Joined: Nov 2011
Reputation: 23
Post: #49
RE: Olympic Lifts
(07-20-2012 05:20 PM)MikeCF Wrote:  Even with good form injuries are inevitable.

I used to do 'em.

Then I looked around the gym at the old guys.

How many old guys do o lifts?

That shit wrecks your body.

I use hammer strength machines as much as possible.

I've been injury free for at least three years (since I stopped going oly lifts).

Tend to agree with this.

Heavy progressive barbell lifting - for strength or power - just isn't good for you. I know that's a pretty unpopular opinion among lifters, but having run the gamut of a decade of lifting covering heavy strength training and oly lifts, all with great attention to form, I just can't back them any more.

I want a body that's still strong and functional 50 years from now, not with another bag of injuries after just five-ten.

Even standard strength lifts like Squat and the Bench - they are just not good for you. Google Bill DeSimeone and congruent exercise if you really want to understand the why - i.e. the actual biomechanics.

Deadlift is a little kinder. Get to 1.5x BW deadlift for a couple of reps if you must, then leave it there - it's plenty enough to be "strong". Something thats kind to your scaffolding.

Do yourselves a favour and switch to bodyweight stuff and kettlebell swings (which incidentally build good ham and glute strength and size, despite the high reps/ low weight ).

You can also build a huge amount of posterior chain strength with exercises like glute-ham raises and natural leg curls - all of which save your scaffolding. Many gymnasts do only these for legs and then pick up a 3-400lb barbell on their first deadlift attempt, and these are small guys.

Finally, bodyweight pushups in particular are much better for your shoulders than all forms of bench press, because they allow proper scapula rotation - and there are variations you can do to make them taxing enough to gain size and strength with. Just google "pseudo-planche pushups" for starters.

Well, I'm sure that will irk some people *hides*. But if it saves one person from injuries then I'll be glad.
(This post was last modified: 07-22-2013 07:17 PM by RichieP.)
07-22-2013 07:10 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[-] The following 1 user Likes RichieP's post:
NuMbEr7
LeBeau Offline
Ostrich
****
Gold Member

Posts: 1,825
Joined: Jun 2013
Reputation: 37
Post: #50
RE: Olympic Lifts
(07-21-2012 03:11 PM)Zeus Wrote:  Reaper has more than pointed out how olympic lifters are the strongest people in the world.

This is up for debate, I would argue it would actually be gymnasts.

However, that all hinges on how you define strength, and what methods/exercises you use to test it, and what areas of the body you focus on.

That said, obviously Olympic lifters are in the top tier when it comes to ability to generate explosiveness, and total strength.
07-22-2013 07:12 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[-] The following 2 users Like LeBeau's post:
RichieP, Built to Fade
Post Reply 


Possibly Related Threads...
Thread: Author Replies: Views: Last Post
  Heavy Lifts + Muay Thai + BJJ joost 20 11,085 07-02-2017 03:08 PM
Last Post: birthday cat
  Olympic lifting or 5*5? Atom89 29 13,233 08-08-2016 12:44 AM
Last Post: Truth Teller
  What non-powerlifting activities have increased your lifts? VincentVinturi 21 7,160 04-07-2016 12:00 PM
Last Post: General Stalin

Forum Jump:


User(s) browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)

Contact Us | RooshV.com | Return to Top | Return to Content | Mobile Version | RSS Syndication