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The Official Presidential Election Thread
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T and A Man Offline
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Post: #276
RE: The Official Presidential Election Thread
Erhh Obama won, so it can be stated outright it's not even a majority position.... and unlike my country, it's not compulsory to vote in the U.S.

Now, there may be a legacy against African-Americans, but African-Americans are not all non-white races. East Asian and Indian immigrant groups (i.e. non-white) have forged reasonably successful lives for themselves and in terms of migratory waves, a short amount of time. For a so-called powerful and widespread racial supremacy point of view, this can not happen.

Now while I believe in some degree of socialised healthcare, its a policy outcome that has traditionally been far off the radar for the U.S., even probably in the Reagan era was unmentionable. When Clinton tried to make mention of it when first elected, it went a long way to him losing the house in 94. Socialised medicine has been the prime mandate Obama has been seeking and it has always been tied to the spectre of socialism, and THAT is what has virulent opposition in the U.S.

Maybe, just maybe, its the large socialist that sees him as the anti-christ... not the extra melanin.

I can assume with great confidence that if Hilary Clinton won in 2008, and introduced socilised medicine, she would have been equally attacked, and then we'd be debating 'gender supremacy', and my sane voice would equally be dismissing them.
(This post was last modified: 11-09-2012 01:35 AM by T and A Man.)
11-09-2012 01:34 AM
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Excelsior Offline
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RE: The Official Presidential Election Thread
(11-09-2012 01:11 AM)T and A Man Wrote:  lol

No fairies are not real, and neither is white supremacy being a powerful force.

Sure, bro. Racism is irrelevant in the United States and we're clearly all making much ado about nothing.

Quote:You do not know real racial oppresion if you nominate what occurs in the U.S. as amongst the worst.

Are those your words, or ours?

I recall dragnet stating that white supremacy is a powerful force in American society. I concurred (this is obvious to the vast majority of minorities who live here).
I don't recall him making a value judgement as to it being more powerful relative to other instances of racial supremacy around the globe. I don't think he touched on that particular tangent.

Would you like to point out where this value judgment was made?

Quote:Buminputra in the Malaysia is much worse on all toher classes by orders of magnitudes.

Irrelevant to the argument (we never implied that it wasn't), but ok, sure.

Quote:Racial supremacy is virulent and aggressive.

You've named two sufficient conditions for the existence of racial supremacy. They are not necessary conditions. Not all instances of racial supremacy involve stereotypical gun-toting, violent KKK-esque behavior (although we do have those guys too). Violence is, by definition, not required for the expression of white supremacy.

That reality would perhaps be a bit clearer to you if you lived here (or read a bit more before you spoke).

Quote:That does not occur in the U.S.

Really? Not even a little?

Tell me more about my experience in the country I've spent most of my life in, bro.

Quote:In fact the most outward display of dogmatic racial hatred..... not indifference, disrespect or antipathy, but sheer violence-on-plain-sight HATRED is directed from blacks towards whites. Any outsider, of which I am one, can see that.

You're right. Whites are a truly downtrodden, oppressed group within the United States, victims of black, asian and latino supremacism.

Quote:Erhh Obama won, so it can be stated outright it's not even a majority position

Weren't we talking about white supremacy here?

You do realize that Obama garnered only 39% of the white vote, right?

If you'd like to claim that a vote for Obama is a sign that this is not a "majority position" among whites, this election wouldn't be useful to you. You'll need a bit more than that.

I'm not claiming that, by virtue of not supporting Obama, 61% of whites are white supremacists (I'm sure many had other reasons for disliking Obama). I am claiming that the electoral numbers can't be used to claim colorblindness "outright", as you have claimed.

Quote:Now, there may be a legacy against African-Americans

And Latinos...and Native Americans...and Asians...

But no, go on. You clearly know what you're talking about.

Quote:East Asian and Indian immigrant groups (i.e. non-white) have forged reasonably successful lives for themselves and in terms of migratory waves, a short amount of time. For a so-called powerful and widespread racial supremacy point of view, this can not happen.

I'm a Caribbean American. We're part of a model minority. We've had levels of success quite similar to those of Asian Americans. I attend an Ivy League school (filled with many other black immigrants and plenty of asians), and am not the first in my family to do so.

In spite of all this, we're not ignorant to racism here and, frankly, neither are the majority of Asian-Americans in this country, and we have all "forged reasonably successful lives" for ourselves (for that matter, so have Jews across the globe and history). Success does not preclude the possibility of the existence of obstacles (and a system supporting/uplifting them) that should otherwise not be present. Just because we overcame them does not mean the obstacles weren't there and/or shouldn't be acknowledged.

Your entire argument is based upon a false (and, to be frank, extremely misguided) premise and is fully divorced from reality.

Quote:Maybe, just maybe, its the large socialist that sees him as the anti-christ... not the extra melanin.

The evidence points to the answer being some combination of these two things.

You lose money chasing women, but you never lose women chasing money.
(This post was last modified: 11-09-2012 02:08 AM by Excelsior.)
11-09-2012 02:05 AM
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T and A Man Offline
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Post: #278
RE: The Official Presidential Election Thread
(11-09-2012 02:05 AM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  Sure, bro. Racism is irrelevant in the United States and we're clearly all making much ado about nothing

I didn't say that, nice way to knock down a strawman.

I didn't say it didn't exist, I'm asserting it's not a powerful force.

It's not a force that wins elections, it's not a force that is broadcast across the mainstream media. it's not a force that see hundreds of oppressed people ending up dead, with authorities turning a blind eye to it.

It may exist, I don't deny that. I'm saying it's not powerful, I'm saying it's marginalised to a non-powerful entity.

Quote:Are those your words, or ours?

I'm saying they're mine, as I've witnessed differing scales of racial oppression across the planet.

Quote:I recall dragnet stating that white supremacy is a powerful force in American society. I concurred (this is obvious to the vast majority of minorities who live here).

And?

Quote:I don't recall him making a value judgement as to it being more powerful relative to other instances of racial supremacy around the globe. I don't think he touched on that particular tangent.

Would you like to point out where this value judgment was made?

yeah, when the word 'powerful' was introduced.

I'm saying racial supremacy has no power at all in the U.S. The real positions of power do not express racial supremacy, the laws do do favour one race over another.

Racial supremacy may exist, but it is devoid of power.

Quote:Irrelevant to the argument (we never implied that it wasn't), but ok, sure.

No it is not irrelevant, it is completely relevant, and you have to have a deficit in logic to state such.

With Bumniputra laws, there racial supremacy actually has power.

It has gerrymander over the electorate.

It has power over who you can marry, and rights issued to those that you marry.

It has power in quotas on company boardrooms, allocation of new housing, share ownership, welfare benefits, schools and the interest rate you receive for your mortgage.

It can change places of worship with impunity and alter penalties for crime.

These are entrenched and legislated.

This is real racial supremacy of real power.

Quote:
Quote:Racial supremacy is virulent and aggressive.

You've named two sufficient conditions for the existence of racial supremacy. They are not necessary conditions. Not all instances of racial supremacy involve stereotypical gun-toting, violent KKK-esque behavior (although we do have those guystoo). Violence is, by definition, not required for the expression of white supremacy.

At least one of those conditions has to exist if it has any power. None of these conditions exist in the U.S., that is why any racial supremacy dogma has no power in the U.S.

Quote:That reality would perhaps be a bit clearer to you if you lived here (or read a bit more before you spoke).

or had lived there, or read more.... yeah?

Quote:Really? Not even a little?

Nope.

Tell me the last time any significant areas of non-whites was ethnically cleaned by violence?

Tell me of any legislation introduced that saw whites given large scale privilege.

Tell me any real, endearing and enduring power structurally given to whites.

My experience, and my reading doesn't point to any.

Sounds like a vacuum of power to me.

Quote:Tell me more about my experience in the country I've spent most of my life in, bro.

Falacious.

I don't need to relate to your anecdotes, especially when you've got a chip on your shoulder.

Getting called pejorative names and having white women grab their purse when you enter the same elevator isn't power.

It may be unpleasant, it may be belittling, but it isn't power.

Quote:You're right. Whites are a truly downtrodden, oppressed,

You're not good at this debating thing without introducing strawmen are you?

Do you deny that the most outward expression of unprovoked violence in the U.S is blacks towards whites?

Quote:group within the United States, victims of

So now you side with this, some many here rally against?

This is a symptom of white women, with their gender being the prime issue.

Quote:asian and latino supremacism.

Now you conflate issues of violence with power? You're supposed to be educated in an institute that awards only to intelligent people, yet you can't debate without strawmen.

This originates from the inference that whites, as a majority and as a hegemonic group, have an irrational hatred of non-whites. Violence figures, and more broadly structures of power, would support that if that was the case.

That doesn't occur.

The most visible instances of irrational, hate fueled bouts of violence involve blacks attacking whites.

If the race of the victims here is the trigger, then these are racially motivated attacks.

Do you deny this occurs?

Quote:Weren't we talking about white supremacy here?

No, we were talking about the power inherant to white supremacy in the U.S.

But your logical capacity seems to have deserted you long ago when it comes to race relations.

If white racial supremacy had real power, it'd be hard to imagine a non-white would win his second bid for president.

Would a non-bumniputra win prime minister of malaysia? I highly doubt it, and I doubt it because racial supremacy actually exists there.

Quote:You do realize that Obama garnered only 39% of the white vote, right?

No, he garnered 39% of whites who voted.

Quote:If you'd like to claim that a vote for Obama is a sign that this is not a "majority position" among whites, this election wouldn't be useful to you. You'll need a bit more than that.

No, you need more than "I feel like being treated better" to assert you're living in a country where racial supremacy oppresses you.

Quote:I'm not claiming that, by virtue of not supporting Obama, 61% of whites are white supremacists (I'm sure many had other reasons for disliking Obama). I am claiming that the electoral numbers can't be used to claim colorblindness "outright", as you have claimed.

erhh yes it can.

Gerrymanders.

Racially aligned immigration policies.

racially motivated welfare policies.

Pogroms.

I.e. real power.

Some dude winning 206 electoral college votes in a 2 horse race isn't power.

Quote:Latinos...and Native Americans...and Asians

But no, go on. You clearly know what you're talking about.

Yes I do, and that makes one of us.

Quote:
Quote:East Asian and Indian immigrant groups (i.e. non-white) have forged reasonably successful lives for themselves and in terms of migratory waves, a short amount of time. For a so-called powerful and widespread racial supremacy point of view, this can not happen.

I'm a Caribbean American. We're part of a model minority. We've had levels of success quite similar to those of Asian Americans. I attend an Ivy League school (filled with many other black immigrants and plenty of asians), and am not the first in my family to do so.

So racial supremacists dogma didn't prevent that?

Doesn't sounds like they had real power to begin with.

See how that works?

Quote:In spite of all this, we're not ignorant to racism here and, frankly, neither are the majority of Asian-Americans in this country, and we have all "forged reasonably successful lives" for ourselves (for that matter, so have Jews across the globe and history). Success does not preclude the possibility of the existence of obstacles (and a system supporting/uplifting them) that should otherwise not be present. Just because we overcame them does not mean the obstacles weren't there and/or shouldn't be acknowledged.

There is a VAST difference between latent racism, which is a globale phemonenom, and the the 'real power' of racial supremacy, which the latter statement is.. off with the fairies.

Quote:Your entire argument is based upon a false (and, to be frank, extremely misguided) premise and is fully divorced from reality.

Says the guy with access to the highest quality institute of learning in his country, who had the opportunity to vote 3 days ago, who is treated with protection under the laws of his country....

No, you're still a kid.. you have no idea of the REALITY... of real racially motivated power.

Quote:The evidence points to the answer being some combination of these two things.

Hmm, white racial 'power' can't prevent a non-white president for the second election in a row.

Doesn't sounds like power to me.

I think you can strike that off as evidence.
(This post was last modified: 11-09-2012 03:02 AM by T and A Man.)
11-09-2012 02:54 AM
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RE: The Official Presidential Election Thread
The presidential thread is now a racism thread. Unbelievable. Maybe we can start a racism debate in the G Manifesto Response thread just to keep the action going.
11-09-2012 02:57 AM
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RE: The Official Presidential Election Thread
Quote:Maybe, just maybe, its the large socialist that sees him as the anti-christ... not the extra melanin.

The evidence points to the answer being some combination of these two things.

Somebody didn't get the memo that socialism is code for taking money away from hard-working real (read white) Americans who earned it and giving it to some undeserving character-flawed others who didn't earn it, and of course happen to have that extra melanin, never mind the fact that the majority of people who receive these types of benefits have always been and still are, white. See also: welfare reform, Rush Limbaugh's welfare queens, and Ronald Reagan states' rights Philadelphia, Mississippi. Google that last phrase if you don't hear the dog whistle loud and clear. A large part of the political will to fight socialism came from couching it in these "darkies are coming to take your shit" terms.

Nobody in America is still pissed at the Russians for being communists back in the day, that's because they're white and they're our friends now. That's why Mitt Romney looked so ridiculous calling the Russians our most dangerous geopolitical foe or whatever it was that he said during that debate. Even the most virulent John Birchers have given up the ghost on hating the Russians. But mention New Black Panthers going to polling places to any Fox News watcher you know and watch them get all worked up...Kenyan Muslim Socialist Marxist...whatever.

The backbone of Obamacare, the individual mandate, is a brainchild of the Heritage Foundation, a right-wing think tank. It was supported by all of the republican hoi polloi for many years as their alternative to the more aggressive Clinton reforms. But now that this Heritage Foundation baby is the law of the land, are they tooting their horn about it ushering in a new era of bi-partisanship? Hell no...they're cutting ads full of demogoguery like this one. A future of managed decline? Cap and tax? That sounds like Obama's gonna give us all free cell phones, health care, and electrical power from windmills and solar panels and that will be the end of capitalism as we know it.

OF COURSE there is a racial element to all this Obama hate. Kenyan Muslim Socialist Marxist is still code for black people coming to take all your shit and white people all over this country know this viscerally if not intellectually, and even if they're not introspective enough to admit to themselves that they're racist, that's what a lot of them are. I'm white, so they usually feel free to tell me about it in polite company.

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(This post was last modified: 11-09-2012 03:52 AM by Capitán Peligroso.)
11-09-2012 03:46 AM
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speakeasy Offline
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RE: The Official Presidential Election Thread
Did you guys see the epic Donald Trump meltdown on Twitter? He has since deleted the posts, but here they are:

[Image: donald-trump-2.jpg]
(This post was last modified: 11-09-2012 04:52 AM by speakeasy.)
11-09-2012 04:44 AM
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Excelsior Offline
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RE: The Official Presidential Election Thread
(11-09-2012 02:54 AM)T and A Man Wrote:  I didn't say that, nice way to knock down a strawman.

I didn't say it didn't exist, I'm asserting it's not a powerful force.

It may exist, I don't deny that. I'm saying it's not powerful, I'm saying it's marginalised to a non-powerful entity.

Racism impacts ones ability to gain employment.

It impacts ones susceptibility to the justice system.

It impacts ones ability to own a home.

It is a force in this country that touches millions of lives in one way or another, shaping their social and economic futures in profound ways.
That, to me, is a "powerful force". You can call it whatever you want.

Quote:
Quote:Are those your words, or ours?

I'm saying they're mine, as I've witnessed differing scales of racial oppression across the planet.

Quote:I don't recall him making a value judgement as to it being more powerful relative to other instances of racial supremacy around the globe. I don't think he touched on that particular tangent.

Would you like to point out where this value judgment was made?

yeah, when the word 'powerful' was introduced.

So you're putting words in our mouths?

Nobody here has tried to play the comparative racial supremacy meme-I'm not in the business of playing the "we suffer more than you" game.
If you'd like to have that discussion, then you can own that point yourself. Don't attribute it to me and create one of the "strawmen" you want to accuse me of fraternizing with.

Quote:I'm saying racial supremacy has no power at all in the U.S. The real positions of power do not express racial supremacy, the laws do do favour one race over another.

...that's not at all attributable to racial supremacy?

Quote:No it is not irrelevant, it is completely relevant, and you have to have a deficit in logic to state such.

On the contrary, it is the deficit of logic that forces one not to make such a statement. To make this clear, I'll post your statement again:

Quote:Buminputra in the Malaysia is much worse on all toher classes by orders of magnitudes.

I'll happily concede this point, because it has nothing to do with my argument. I am claiming that racial supremacy is a powerful force within American society. Bumniputra may very well be "worse" (a value judgment you introduced, not me) or it may not be, but that is irrelevant to the point at hand. Assuming Bumniputra is more severe than current forms of discrimination in the USA, the fact that discrimination in the USA is still a powerful force would remain unchanged, as it exists independently of Bumniputra.

In other words, the existence of a harsh form of discrimination in one area does preclude the existence of a powerful form of discrimination within another. You can debate as to which form is "more powerful" (again, a debate I wish not to engage in and a point I'll happily cede to you), but that does not preclude the possibility that both are still powerful (albeit to different extents)

If you'd like to claim that racial supremacy is not a powerful force in the USA, you'll need to do more than merely point out another form of discrimination that exists elsewhere.

Quote: With Bumniputra laws, there racial supremacy actually has power.

It has gerrymander over the electorate.

It has power over who you can marry, and rights issued to those that you marry.

It has power in quotas on company boardrooms, allocation of new housing, share ownership, welfare benefits, schools and the interest rate you receive for your mortgage.

It can change places of worship with impunity and alter penalties for crime.

These are entrenched and legislated.

This is real racial supremacy of real power.

That's all noted. This does not preclude racial discrimination in the USA from itself being a powerful force.

All you've proven thus far is that racial discrimination in Malaysia is more severe and/or more powerful. You have not proved the claim that racial discrimination in the USA is not powerful at all.

Quote:At least one of those conditions has to exist if it has any power.

I'm not aware of where this standard was set. Want to point me to a definition for justification?

Quote:None of these conditions exist in the U.S., that is why any racial supremacy dogma has no power in the U.S.

Virulent:
Quote:intensely bitter, spiteful, or malicious;
violently or spitefully hostile

Racism in the USA most certainly harbors these features (a fact obvious to most here), so I'm not going to buy that.

Aggressive:
Quote:characterized by or tending toward unprovoked offensives, attacks, invasions, or the like; militantly forward or menacing

I'd call this aggressive. And this. And this.This too, maybe. I suppose I could also add this...and maybe this...

Quote:or had lived there, or read more.... yeah?

Yeah.

Quote:Nope.

Tell me the last time any significant areas of non-whites was ethnically cleaned by violence?

Addressed above-not required for racial supremacy to remain a powerful force.

Quote:Tell me of any legislation introduced that saw whites given large scale privilege.

Start with this, this and this.

Other government action that has worked to create racial discrepancies can be found here and here. This too.

Quote:Tell me any real, endearing and enduring power structurally given to whites.

That wealth differential I keep talking about?

Caused largely by this (more info on this dynamic can be found here, here and here).

Quote:My experience, and my reading doesn't point to any.

I question the quality of your experience and your reading.

Quote:
Quote:Tell me more about my experience in the country I've spent most of my life in, bro.

Falacious.

I don't need to relate to your anecdotes, especially when you've got a chip on your shoulder.

Getting called pejorative names and having white women grab their purse when you enter the same elevator isn't power.

It may be unpleasant, it may be belittling, but it isn't power.

Assuming that that's all there really is to racism in the USA.

Bad assumption.

Quote:Do you deny that the most outward expression of unprovoked violence in the U.S is blacks towards whites?

Yes.

Quote:This originates from the inference that whites, as a majority and as a hegemonic group, have an irrational hatred of non-whites. Violence figures, and more broadly structures of power, would support that if that was the case.

That doesn't occur.

Yes it does (evidence above).

Quote:
Quote:Weren't we talking about white supremacy here?

No, we were talking about the power inherant to white supremacy in the U.S.

...so we're still talking about white supremacy. Right.

Quote:But your logical capacity seems to have deserted you long ago when it comes to race relations.

If white racial supremacy had real power, it'd be hard to imagine a non-white would win his second bid for president.

This is interesting.

Your argument is entirely illogical. It presupposes that, because an obstacle can be overcome, that it doesn't actually exist and/or exert any real influence.
Yet, following your use of this absurd argument, you insist on calling me illogical. Fascinating.

Barack Obama has ascended to the highest office in this land. Before him, some blacks had achieved similar feats, reaching the Presidential Cabinet and the Supreme Court (among other lofty destinations).

That does not mean that white racial supremacy has no real power. It means that its power (which has been in hand for centuries now) is beginning to fade (a phenomenon that dragnet alluded to in the post that kicked off this whole discussion).

It is entirely possible for a powerful phenomenon to exist, exert real power and then be overcome as it begins to lose that power, remaining a legitimately powerful force in its twilight but declining over time. This is a possibility you seem unable to account for.

And yet you call me illogical...

Quote:No, you need more than "I feel like being treated better" to assert you're living in a country where racial supremacy oppresses you.

Cool.

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:East Asian and Indian immigrant groups (i.e. non-white) have forged reasonably successful lives for themselves and in terms of migratory waves, a short amount of time. For a so-called powerful and widespread racial supremacy point of view, this can not happen.

I'm a Caribbean American. We're part of a model minority. We've had levels of success quite similar to those of Asian Americans. I attend an Ivy League school (filled with many other black immigrants and plenty of asians), and am not the first in my family to do so.

So racial supremacists dogma didn't prevent that?

Doesn't sounds like they had real power to begin with.

The answer to your question is no, the "racial supremacist dogma" did not prevent that.

How you then proceed to make the logical leap to the second statement is mind boggling.

Racial supremacist dogma did not prevent the ANC from establishing its "non-racial democracy" in 1994 after apartheid. Are you going to claim, then, that the proponents of apartheid "had no real power to begin with"?

Or would you instead claim that they in fact had real power, but that power was successfully challenged, overcome and eventually whittled away (a process that dragnet claimed is beginning here in the USA)?

In 1948, "racial supremacist dogma" in the United States failed to prevent the integration of the military. Are you going to claim that the proponents of segregations "had no real power to begin with" as a result of this?

Or are you instead going to claim that they had real power, would maintain it for quite some time going forward but face a gradual decline in said power over time (a decline that, again, dragnet has estimated to be accelerating into a new stage)?

Are you going to acknowledge the very real possibility that one can lose a few battles and/or lose ground and still maintain real power in a some (possibly diminished, if not merely reshaped) form? Or are you going to continue to pretend that any failed exertion of power in any one case is a complete surrender of power?

Quote:See how that works?

It doesn't work.

Quote:
Quote:Your entire argument is based upon a false (and, to be frank, extremely misguided) premise and is fully divorced from reality.

Says the guy with access to the highest quality institute of learning in his country, who had the opportunity to vote 3 days ago, who is treated with protection under the laws of his country....

No, you're still a kid.. you have no idea of the REALITY... of real racially motivated power.

Mostly ad-hominem here, but I'll address it anyway: none of what you said here precludes the possibility that racial supremacy maintains real power in the USA. It is entirely possible for someone targeted by said power to succeed in spite of the existence of that power.

You have yet to address this logical reality. Real power does not necessarily = absolute power and absolute victory in every circumstance. It is entirely possible for one to exert real power and fail in at least some of their efforts. If this begins to occur with greater frequency, that can indicate a gradual decline in real power, and is not necessarily a sign that all vestiges of that power have yet disappeared (though that could happen soon, as dragnet noted) or (even more absurdly) that said power never existed to begin with.

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11-09-2012 06:09 AM
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Post: #283
RE: The Official Presidential Election Thread
This tumblr blog about the reaction of white Romney supporters is pretty funny. Lots of drama queens out there.

http://whitepeoplemourningromney.tumblr.com/
11-09-2012 07:18 AM
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RE: The Official Presidential Election Thread
(11-09-2012 07:18 AM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  This tumblr blog about the reaction of white Romney supporters is pretty funny. Lots of drama queens out there.

http://whitepeoplemourningromney.tumblr.com/

Like I said in an earlier post, I didn't think anyone liked Rmoney so much except his family, and I'm still not so sure about them. Hopefully, once they're done wiping away the tears they can use that energy for something useful, borrow money from their parents to start a business and save capitalism. Or America. Or something.

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11-09-2012 12:33 PM
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RE: The Official Presidential Election Thread
Athlone's arguments ultimately fail because do not take into context any sort of international comparisons.

T and A refers to actual racism that involves large scale oppression of a minority class with violence and repression, such as mass murders and slave labor, not just silly things like worse access to education and jobs.


The simple fact of the matter is that blacks are treated better in Westernized countries than any other country on the planet. Westernized whites treat blacks better than blacks in Africa treat each other (who have the lowest standard of living in the world). Westernized whites treat blacks better than Eastern whites (there are no hate crime laws in Russia) do. Westernized whites treat blacks better than Asians, such as the Chinese, do (see how China exploits Africa with slave labor). Westernized whites treat blacks better than Latino's in South America do, given the insanely high poverty rates of blacks in these areas, as well as the cultural preferences for lighter skin in countries like Brazil.

Athlone's version of racism closely resembles the kinds of arguments feminists use to claim that women do not receive the same jobs and opportunities men do, which of course are terribly weak arguments, while ignoring the fact that westernized women have the highest standards of living in the entire world compared to what non-western women receive.


Athlone, you should stop blindly following your university professors and do some more international research on racism in other parts of the world and then compare it to the "racism" in the USA. Things are so tame in comparison there's no way to take your arguments seriously.


I find it very telling that people with international perspectives, such as Hooligan Harry and T and A man, find all of Athlone's arguments to be false, but that guys in the USA don't even question Athlone because they lack the relevant experience.

As per usual, people in America are fed lies their entire life and need only to travel to see how the liberal elite feeds bullshit to them during their schooling years.
(This post was last modified: 11-09-2012 01:12 PM by Samseau.)
11-09-2012 01:08 PM
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RE: The Official Presidential Election Thread
In their own way I think both Athlone and Samseau are right. I don't think they really even contradict each other. They are just looking at the same issue from a different point of view.
11-09-2012 01:26 PM
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RE: The Official Presidential Election Thread
(11-09-2012 01:08 PM)Samseau Wrote:  Athlone's arguments ultimately fail because do not take into context any sort of international comparisons.

T and A refers to actual racism that involves large scale oppression of a minority class with violence and repression, such as mass murders and slave labor, not just silly things like worse access to education and jobs.


The simple fact of the matter is that blacks are treated better in Westernized countries than any other country on the planet. Westernized whites treat blacks better than blacks in Africa treat each other (who have the lowest standard of living in the world). Westernized whites treat blacks better than Eastern whites (there are no hate crime laws in Russia) do. Westernized whites treat blacks better than Asians, such as the Chinese, do (see how China exploits Africa with slave labor). Westernized whites treat blacks better than Latino's in South America do, given the insanely high poverty rates of blacks in these areas, as well as the cultural preferences for lighter skin in countries like Brazil.

Athlone's version of racism closely resembles the kinds of arguments feminists use to claim that women do not receive the same jobs and opportunities men do, which of course are terribly weak arguments, while ignoring the fact that westernized women have the highest standards of living in the entire world compared to what non-western women receive.


Athlone, you should stop blindly following your university professors and do some more international research on racism in other parts of the world and then compare it to the "racism" in the USA. Things are so tame in comparison there's no way to take your arguments seriously.


I find it very telling that people with international perspectives, such as Hooligan Harry and T and A man, find all of Athlone's arguments to be false, but that guys in the USA don't even question Athlone because they lack the relevant experience.

As per usual, people in America are fed lies their entire life and need only to travel to see how the liberal elite feeds bullshit to them during their schooling years.

To recap--

American racism isn't real because blacks are treated worse in other places.

By this "logic"--

American homophobia isn't real because gays are treated worse in other places.

American xenophobia isn't real because undocumented immigrants are treated worse in other countries.

American misandry isn't real because men are treated even more harshly in other places.

American women aren't sluts because some women in other countries give it up even quicker.

The American obsession with work and money aren't real because some countries have even more extreme cultures in this regard.

Infringements on civil liberties in America aren't real because it's even worse in other countries.

European anti-Semitism isn't real because Jews are treated worse in Arab countries.

Etc.

I'm not sure what's worse---the obvious wrong-headedness of this "logic" or the fact that you are completely unashamed to be publicly associated with it.
(This post was last modified: 11-09-2012 03:10 PM by dragnet.)
11-09-2012 02:52 PM
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RE: The Official Presidential Election Thread
(11-09-2012 01:08 PM)Samseau Wrote:  Athlone's arguments ultimately fail because do not take into context any sort of international comparisons.

T and A refers to actual racism that involves large scale oppression of a minority class with violence and repression, such as mass murders and slave labor,


You're making the same foolish mistake that T and A is making: you're attempting to claim that any actual expression of racism must require mass murder or some similarly extreme form of violence.
Expressions of racism do not require slavery and/or mass murder to actually be expressions of racism.

Quote:not just silly things like worse access to education and jobs.

In a society where one's education and employment largely determine one's standard of living, dynamics that limit access to said things cannot really be dismissed as "silly". They would be considered quite serious to the groups impacted by them, whose potential incarceration could depend on it.

This argument is just another rehash of the "our negroes are treated better than your negroes" argument. Racism does not require explicit genocide to be considered a serious offense.

Quote:The simple fact of the matter is that blacks are treated better in Westernized countries than any other country on the planet.

We're talking specifically about the United States.

Quote:Westernized whites treat blacks better than blacks in Africa treat each other (who have the lowest standard of living in the world).

Look, our standard of living is higher here than it is in Africa for people we have nothing to do with.
Let's ignore the fact the instances of discrimination in our society, then. Yeah, these instances of discrimination in the USA may yield serious inequality between us and whites within our society in spite of that culture's stated legal committment to equality, but that's ok, because somewhere someone is doing worse.

Yes, so whites (male and female-I'll get to your daft feminism tangent in a bit) are given significant advantages over other groups in terms their educational, social and economic success in this society. No, there doesn't seem to be a good reason for this (they're not superior to us or anything). But hey, who cares? Other people halfway across the globe have it worse, so that makes our situation very fair and decent.

Quote:Westernized whites treat blacks better than Eastern whites (there are no hate crime laws in Russia) do.

Look, guys. Let's stop complaining about rampant discrimination within our justice system. Yes, so it does result in our being thrown in jail at a pretty ridiculous and highly disproportionate rate, an outcome that in turn damages our economic, political and social power. And yes, there is no good reason for us to see such a dire situation relative to our white peers (male and female-I'll get to your daft feminism tangent in a bit), who commit the same crimes. Prison also sucks, and I know you're concerned for your children and their potential to get sucked into this prison-industrial complex for no good reason.

But hey, somewhere halfway around the world, there are eastern European people that we don't know and have nothing to do with, and in their society (where we do not live) there are no hate crime laws. So why bother getting angry at the fact that your white peers receive better treatment from the justice system than you will simply because of their race? If you lived in Eastern Europe (which you don't and likely never will), it might be worse! So this makes things fair here.

Quote:Westernized whites treat blacks better than Asians, such as the Chinese, do (see how China exploits Africa with slave labor).

Hey guys, let's stop complaining about discrimination in employment here in the USA. Yes, I know why you're concerned: you need to make a living, and sometimes you're frustrated by the fact that your white counterparts seem to get a leg up on you in the job hunt simply because they are white (male and female). You're annoyed by the fact that your name impacts this job hunt, regardless of your own qualifications.

But hey, don't despair. Somewhere halfway across the world in lands we know little about filled with people we have nothing to do with, there are harsher labor laws.
So sure, the advantage whites may have over you in employment here in the USA might seem unfair (not like it was earned or anything), but its ok and acceptable, because someone somewhere else has/had it worse. That makes it fair and tolerable, guys!

Quote:Westernized whites treat blacks better than Latino's in South America do, given the insanely high poverty rates of blacks in these areas, as well as the cultural preferences for lighter skin in countries like Brazil.

The bolded exists in the USA as well.

Quote:Athlone's version of racism closely resembles the kinds of arguments feminists use to claim that women do not receive the same jobs and opportunities men do, which of course are terribly weak arguments, while ignoring the fact that westernized women have the highest standards of living in the entire world compared to what non-western women receive.

Are we going to use this bullshit "Athlone is a feminist" argument again? The racialists here seem to love this tactic, which is odd because it does them no good. Why?

Feminism is merely an extension of the very white privilege I've been complaining about, a tool that has benefited white women more than just about anybody else. Feminism, as it has been practiced, is primarily the weapon of the entitled, well-to-do white middle/upper class woman who, quite frankly, doesn't have many of the problems I've been trying to bring attention to above and is actually a beneficiary of the discriminatory dynamics I've been outlining.

It is one thing for these white feminists (who, let's be honest, make up about 90+% of the outwardly feminist population), who have benefited more than just about anybody else in this country from post civil-rights era developments (yes, more than ANY minority group of any gender) and who actually enjoy sky-high employment rates and a host of other advantages over their minority peers, to complain.

It is another things for a group that lacks just about all of those things (higher unemployment rates, higher poverty rates, discrimination, etc) to do the same. When a white female public figure gets called a cunt, feminism rushes to her aid. When a white female is kidnapped or otherwise harmed, society puts plenty of focus on it.

Black, hispanic, and native american women don't get these benefits.

So, no, none of what I'm saying is analogous to feminist complaints. The women who make up most of the feminist body-politic are actually some of the most privileged people in our society-they don't have any of the concrete problems relating to employment, education, and legal discrimination that I've been harping about in this entire post (your argument would only have a point if they did). They benefit more from the minority civil rights movement than the minorities themselves.

I've spent this entire debate harping on the fact that many minorities are benefiting unevenly in many social, economic and legal indicators relative to whites, and how this has been a problem and is (hopefully) changing. I then provided a wealth of evidence to back these claims up. You can't say the same for white women (read: the group feminism is mainly designed to serve). These aren't natural allies to any argument I'm making-they're direct opponents to the argument I'm making, beneficiaries of the same legal, social and economic advantages I've been going on about.

Quote:Athlone, you should stop blindly following your university professors

I'm not. You can quit trying to apply this meme. It is tired, and you clearly don't know me well enough to accurately determine how my opinions are formed.

Quote:and do some more international research on racism in other parts of the world and then compare it to the "racism" in the USA.

"International research"?

Dude, I've done more "international research" than you've done in your entire life. I'm a citizen of multiple continents. My concentration is history at an institution with one of the most extensive library collections on Earth. I have sat down and conversed with intellectuals from across the planet.
You vastly underestimate the depth and scope of my knowledge. You and your like minded-forumers can continue to test me if you'd like with this faulty assumption in hand, but I doubt you'll get the result you want.

My understanding of these developments is not inferior to that of anyone here, and I'll not be spoken down to as though it is. My conclusions are formed on a solid basis.
Either deconstruct them logically or quit talking about it.

Quote:I find it very telling that people with international perspectives,

...assuming I lack an "international perspecitve" with the knowledge to back it up.
False assumption.

Quote:such as Hooligan Harry and T and A man, find all of Athlone's arguments to be false,

Hooligan Harry? The guy who thought Apartheid was cool, and didn't even understand the forces that stood against it?

Or T and A man, the guy whose logic would claim that the defeat of apartheid in 1994 meant that apartheid never had any "real power" to begin with?

Real credible roster you've got there. Two guys who've proven themselves thusfar to be incapable of logically counteracting anything I say.
You want to run with that? Suit yourself.

Quote:As per usual, people in America are fed lies their entire life and need only to travel

...assuming again that I have not done this.

I've made my own conclusions. You can continue to toss out red herrings and ad-hominems implying their being "fed" to me by professors, the "liberal elite", and other mysterious forces supposedly divorced from reason that, all in all, have nothing to do with the actual merits of my argument.
The actual strength of my argument won't be harmed by logical fallacy.

Also: I co-sign dragnet's post above.

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11-09-2012 03:57 PM
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RE: The Official Presidential Election Thread



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11-10-2012 01:48 AM
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RE: The Official Presidential Election Thread
Dragnet Wrote:To recap--

American racism isn't real because blacks are treated worse in other places.

That's not my argument. My argument is that "racism isn't a serious issue in westernized countries when compared to non-western countries."

It's for the same reasons T and A listed above:

Quote:I didn't say it didn't exist, I'm asserting it's not a powerful force.

It's not a force that wins elections, it's not a force that is broadcast across the mainstream media. it's not a force that see hundreds of oppressed people ending up dead, with authorities turning a blind eye to it.

And my point is not that racial discrimination does not exist in America, but instead that racial discrimination

a.) Shouldn't be called racism, because racism has far more serious connotations other than job preferences - racism involves the denial of basic human rights, none of which occur for Black Americans.

b.) Isn't serious enough to be prioritized over other issues in America, such as the theft major banks and corporations perform every day with Quantitative Easing, or the loss of liberties with the expansion of the police state, the gutting of the economy and off shoring of jobs, etc (insert 10 other issues here).



Athlone Wrote:Expressions of racism do not require slavery and/or mass murder to actually be expressions of racism.

Nonsense. You're like the feminist who tries to claim everything is rape. Real racism involves the denial of basic human rights. Blacks are denied jobs? So what, that's not a right - no one has a right to a job. Jobs are important but the solution isn't get rid of basic racial discrimination (which will always exist) but instead to get the economy moving so there are more jobs in the first place.

Quote:Let's ignore the fact the instances of discrimination in our society, then. Yeah, these instances of discrimination in the USA may yield serious inequality between us and whites within our society in spite of that culture's stated legal committment to equality, but that's ok, because somewhere someone is doing worse.

Quote:Let's stop complaining about rampant discrimination within our justice system. Yes, so it does result in our being thrown in jail at a pretty ridiculous and highly disproportionate rate, an outcome that in turn damages our economic, political and social power.

Quote:Hey guys, let's stop complaining about discrimination in employment here in the USA. Yes, I know why you're concerned: you need to make a living, and sometimes you're frustrated by the fact that your white counterparts seem to get a leg up on you in the job hunt simply because they are white (male and female). You're annoyed by the fact that your name impacts this job hunt, regardless of your own qualifications.


See, you don't get it. You can't see your own ideological trappings, even though they are right in front of you.

All of these arguments make two fatal assumptions:

1. That human nature can be changed.
2. There can exist a world where one race doesn't discriminate against another.


You think you're well read? Name one historical instance where a culture didn't prefer it's own, or a culture that harbored no racial preferences.

You obviously get these dogmas from your professors. I couldn't help but notice that none of my professors believed in human nature, and that's why they were feminists.

You assume that somehow whites are the problem. If whites were no longer in power there would no longer be any racial discrimination? A ridiculous assertion. If Asians rose to power, they would favor Asians over non-Asians. If Blacks rose to power, they would favor Blacks over non-Blacks (as the takeover in South Africa or Zimbabwe illustrates).

The reason I bring up the fact that Blacks have it best in Westernized countries is to illustrate a very simple point:

Who treats the black man better than the white man?

The best countries for a black man to live are all white countries. And what we can infer from this fact is that without white people, blacks wouldn't have the high standard of living that they currently do.


Without white people, everyone's standard of living would surely decline, since it is white people who make anti-racism policies possible in the first place.

Thus trying to change America into a place where there is even less discrimination can only backfire, since racial politics are zero-sum - one race can only profit at the expense of another. There can be no truly "equal" state of affairs, it will always result with winners and losers.

There will always be a limited amount of jobs, one race will always get the majority of them.

Criminals will always be prosecuted, and the prosecutors will always have racial preferences reflective of their own race that will result in unfair punishments for other races.

You cannot eliminate human bias because it is human to be biased.

Eliminate whites as the rulers of the free world, and it will be replaced by some other dominant race - do you think the next dominant race will be better than white rule? Especially given that whites have done more to advance non-racist policies more than any other race in the history of the world?


Whether the dominant race is white or not won't change the basic facts of human nature. Yet - Whites have shown the best track record out of any race in the history of man when it comes to promoting the interests of races outside of their own. Whites have demonstrated more tolerance than any other race by a landslide.

But total removal of all forms of racial discrimination? Can't be done. There's no such thing as a perfect world. Utopia doesn't exist.

There are far bigger issues to tackle than discrimination in America.
11-10-2012 01:53 AM
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RE: The Official Presidential Election Thread
(11-09-2012 01:08 PM)Samseau Wrote:  T and A refers to actual racism that involves large scale oppression of a minority class with violence and repression, such as mass murders and slave labor,not just silly things like worse access to education and jobs.

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11-10-2012 02:09 AM
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RE: The Official Presidential Election Thread
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11-10-2012 02:10 AM
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RE: The Official Presidential Election Thread
(11-10-2012 01:53 AM)Samseau Wrote:  And my point is not that racial discrimination does not exist in America, but instead that racial discrimination

a.) Shouldn't be called racism, because racism has far more serious connotations other than job preferences - racism involves the denial of basic human rights, none of which occur for Black Americans.

Racism:
Quote:Definition of RACISM

1: a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
2: racial prejudice or discrimination

Racism:
Quote:rac·ism   [rey-siz-uhm]
noun
1.a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2.a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3.hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.

Quote:b.) Isn't serious enough to be prioritized over other issues in America,

The folks who actually deal with it disagree with you.

Quote:Nonsense. You're like the feminist who tries to claim everything is rape. Real racism involves the denial of basic human rights.

Not really-established definitions of racism back me up on that. Discrimination = racism.

I would also contend that the maintenance of a system designed to promote the mass incarceration of a certain group of people on a less-than-fair basis could constitute a denial of rights (liberty, justice, the pursuit of happiness, etc).
Maybe that's just me, though.

Quote:Blacks are denied jobs? So what, that's not a right - no one has a right to a job.

Strawman-the jobs are not the right. The equal consideration is the right, as is the right to be looked upon and treated as more than second class citizens. When you have a consistent trend that involves equally qualified minorities losing out to equally qualified whites for no good reason, we have a problem.

You'll say "so what", and I get that-this reality doesn't impact you. Minorities, on the other hand, have their livelihoods to think about. They're not going to take kindly to the notion that they should be ok with being denied the opportunity to earn a living simply because of their race/ethnicity, a notion you're promoting here. Second class citizenship isn't ok for them.

Quote:Jobs are important but the solution isn't get rid of basic racial discrimination (which will always exist) but instead to get the economy moving so there are more jobs in the first place.

Can't do that when you have in place a system that excludes certain people at a greater rate solely on the basis of their ethnicity. There will be more jobs around, but those people who were excluded to begin with still won't be getting them because their race/ethnicity hasn't changed.


Quote:All of these arguments make two fatal assumptions:

1. That human nature can be changed.

None of what I ask for requires a change in human nature. Levels of discrimination seen within the United States are not immutable and/or insurmountable. That's a mere excuse, and a poor one at that.

Quote:2. There can exist a world where one race doesn't discriminate against another.

Not necessary either. Discrimination may always exist and, by extension, racism may always exist. That doesn't mean that discrimination and its impacts can't be further minimized, or that further actions should not be taken to do so. It certainly doesn't establish the notion that nothing more can be done to attack discrimination in the United States.

Quote:You obviously get these dogmas from your professors.

You obvious like to make presumptions without any factual basis at all.
My school is not a bastion of "tolerance".

Quote:You assume that somehow whites are the problem.

No, I assume that racist whites are the problem.

Not all whites are racist.

Quote:If whites were no longer in power there would no longer be any racial discrimination? A ridiculous assertion.

I agree.

Good thing I didn't make it.

Quote:Thus trying to change America into a place where there is even less discrimination can only backfire, since racial politics are zero-sum - one race can only profit at the expense of another.

Bullshit.

This entire running "get rid of whites" strawman you're fighting is crap. Nobody made that suggestion, and it isn't required to tackle discrimination. Attacking white supremacy =/= the elimination of white people. That's a tired white nationalist meme.

Quote:There will always be a limited amount of jobs, one race will always get the majority of them.

The fact that the majority of jobs are held by whites is quite irrelevant. The fact that two equally qualified candidates (one white, one a minority) can enter a job hunt and reliably face entirely different standards/realities is the actual issue. You can tackle this issue and still see the majority of jobs going to whites-making whites a minority in the workplace is not the goal.
Giving qualified candidates a fair shot at the job market is.

Quote:Criminals will always be prosecuted, and the prosecutors will always have racial preferences reflective of their own race that will result in unfair punishments for other races.

And there is no indication that the current state of racial discrimination in prosecution is immutable.

Quote:You cannot eliminate human bias because it is human to be biased.

You don't need to.

Quote:Eliminate whites as the rulers of the free world, and it will be replaced by some other dominant race - do you think the next dominant race will be better than white rule?

Well, given the fact that nobody here suggested the elimination of whites in general (as opposed to the elimination of white supremacy/racism), I have to say that I don't really care. Your question (and the rest of your pro-white, white nationalist-esque rant) is entirely irrelevant to the argument at hand.

Quote:But total removal of all forms of racial discrimination? Can't be done. There's no such thing as a perfect world. Utopia doesn't exist.

Good. Nobody is asking for it.

Quote:There are far bigger issues to tackle than discrimination in America.

Not for minorities.

(11-10-2012 02:09 AM)P Dog Wrote:  
(11-09-2012 01:08 PM)Samseau Wrote:  T and A refers to actual racism that involves large scale oppression of a minority class with violence and repression, such as mass murders and slave labor,not just silly things like worse access to education and jobs.

[Image: 34rc5tz.jpg]

Oh, he's quite serious.

Welcome to America, P-Dog.

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11-10-2012 03:30 AM
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RE: The Official Presidential Election Thread
(11-09-2012 06:09 AM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  Racism impacts ones ability to gain education

Yes that's true, but in my case-- in graduate school it works the opposite from the effects in , say, poor public elementary schools.

I got higher GREs than the average accepted score in all the doctoral programs in my field in the country except MIT. Higher than Harvard, Yale, etc. 1560 out of possible 1600 V+M. With my grades I didn't deserve to get into a famous school, but I was obviously competitive in some ways.

I'm a white male, I didn't get in anywhere prestigious or even funded.

I'm convinced I would have gotten into a significantly better school had I been black or maybe even female. It's possible I'm wrong, but that's my impression.

I'm not all pissy about it; I actually am in favor of affirmative action, because if part of the population isn't doing well economically and you don't try to help them, it just makes for too much hostility in a culture. However at this point I believe the emphasis in affirmative action should go to the truly poor, rather than for instance a dentist's son who happens to be black.
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RE: The Official Presidential Election Thread
[quote='Athlone McGinnis' pid='305280' dateline='1352536240']
[quote]You assume that somehow whites are the problem.[/quote]

No, I assume that racist whites are the problem.

[quote]

[/quote]

Well racists FULL STOP are the problem. No matter their own racial background. Seeing the world through a racial filter does nobody any good. Hate breeds hate.


Can't we all just get along? HeartHeartHeart
(This post was last modified: 11-10-2012 04:20 AM by Nineteen84.)
11-10-2012 04:17 AM
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RE: The Official Presidential Election Thread
I noticed Athlone's denial of human nature never addressed my simple challenge:

Quote:You think you're well read? Name one historical instance where a culture didn't prefer it's own, or a culture that harbored no racial preferences.

It's the same argument I use against feminists who say patriarchy is bad. No non-patriarchal governments have ever survived, thus we can conclude non-patriarchal governments are at odds with human nature.


Your arguments are ahistorical, and ahistorical arguments are bad.
11-10-2012 08:21 AM
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RE: The Official Presidential Election Thread
(11-10-2012 08:21 AM)Samseau Wrote:  I noticed Athlone's denial of human nature never addressed my simple challenge:

Quote:You think you're well read? Name one historical instance where a culture didn't prefer it's own, or a culture that harbored no racial preferences.

It's the same argument I use against feminists who say patriarchy is bad. No non-patriarchal governments have ever survived, thus we can conclude non-patriarchal governments are at odds with human nature.


Your arguments are ahistorical, and ahistorical arguments are bad.

Athlone admitted no such a culture has existed. I have to add though, the only way for it to be possible is for said minority group to be absorbed into the mainstream. Samseau you're from Boston right? Boston had a lot of Irish, Italian, French Canadian etc immigration in the 1800's right? They were discriminated against by the WASP's 150 or so years ago, they're not now. It was similar here in Australia. The historical solution you're looking for is cultural assimilation, upward social mobility and sizable rate of intermarriages. With the former two increasing the odds of the later.
(This post was last modified: 11-10-2012 08:48 AM by Deluge.)
11-10-2012 08:45 AM
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Nineteen84 Offline
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Post: #298
RE: The Official Presidential Election Thread
Yes cultures have been assimilated- there's a book about Irish integration for example called 'how the irish became white'. However, we have to be careful to acknowledge the distinction between cultural and racial assimilation.
(This post was last modified: 11-10-2012 09:03 AM by Nineteen84.)
11-10-2012 09:02 AM
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Samseau Offline
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Post: #299
RE: The Official Presidential Election Thread
Quote:Boston had a lot of Irish, Italian, French Canadian etc immigration in the 1800's right?

These groups weren't even separated by race, and yet look at how much they fought each other and fought with the existing native population of America?

And these groups still tend to their own, to this day. People always stick to their own, I swear it must be an instinctive behavior.
11-10-2012 09:11 AM
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Deluge Offline
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Post: #300
RE: The Official Presidential Election Thread
(11-10-2012 09:02 AM)Nineteen84 Wrote:  Yes cultures have been assimilated- there's a book about Irish integration for example called 'how the irish became white'. However, we have to be careful to acknowledge the distinction between cultural and racial assimilation.

The Irish used to be the underclass here too. Now the majority of Aussies are labelled part of the "Anglo-Celtic" ethnic group. They certainly don't stick to their own. Middle aged whites whose parents were immigrants (many of them refugees) still do, but that's changing with their kids.

http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2012/02/1...rmarriage/
Quote:26% of Hispanics and 28% of Asians married out

That number for Asians is similar here but I know for us the Asian intermarriage rate is roughly 50% for those born here. Explaining why intermarriage tends to accelerate when the flow of new migrants of that ethnic group dries up.
(This post was last modified: 11-10-2012 09:17 AM by Deluge.)
11-10-2012 09:15 AM
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