Post: #1

I'm on the verge of graduating law school with no decent job prospect in sight. This despite the fact that I go to a top 6 school with a slightly above-average GPA. My summer associate firm no-offered me last year, killing my chance of getting that $160K starting salary.

Now at some point in the future I will find a job, and it probably won't be awful since I go to a good school, but it will be a much longer road to paying off the $200K+ with a 7.5% interest rate. Monthly payment will be at least $1000-$1500.

Here are my options as I see them:

1. Move back to my home state where family connections can probably get me a decent firm job.
Pros: Low cost of living, close to family.
Cons: Requires living in a 500K population, depressing, blue-collar, semi-redneck city.

2. Move to economically dynamic sunbelt state where I have more distant family connections.
Pros: Possible chance of getting a decent firm job. Nice weather. Prettier girls. Probably good gaming opportunities.
Cons: Still kind of redneck. Don't know a soul there other than distant family.

3. Hold out for decent government job in my large, northern city. Maybe not as a lawyer.
Pros: Job will happen at some point. Great gaming opportunities. Have a great main girlfriend, and seeing a couple of other girls right now too.
Cons: Higher cost of living. Uncertainty about when the job will come. No family connections, so lots of networking required.

4. Skip the country and find a way to support myself overseas. Maybe take the English teaching route, but I'm open to any possibility. Needs to be somewhere I have a shot with local women.
Pros: Never have to pay off debt. Realize dream of living/working overseas and traveling.
Cons: Can never have a job in the US again without paying off debt.

What do you guys think? Do you have any other ideas?

Post: #2

(05-07-2010 11:32 AM)traveling boho Wrote:  I'm on the verge of graduating law school with no decent job prospect in sight. This despite the fact that I go to a top 6 school with a slightly above-average GPA. My summer associate firm no-offered me last year, killing my chance of getting that $160K starting salary.

Now at some point in the future I will find a job, and it probably won't be awful since I go to a good school, but it will be a much longer road to paying off the $200K+ with a 7.5% interest rate. Monthly payment will be at least $1000-$1500.

Here are my options as I see them:

1. Move back to my home state where family connections can probably get me a decent firm job.
Pros: Low cost of living, close to family.
Cons: Requires living in a 500K population, depressing, blue-collar, semi-redneck city.

2. Move to economically dynamic sunbelt state where I have more distant family connections.
Pros: Possible chance of getting a decent firm job. Nice weather. Prettier girls. Probably good gaming opportunities.
Cons: Still kind of redneck. Don't know a soul there other than distant family.

3. Hold out for decent government job in my large, northern city. Maybe not as a lawyer.
Pros: Job will happen at some point. Great gaming opportunities. Have a great main girlfriend, and seeing a couple of other girls right now too.
Cons: Higher cost of living. Uncertainty about when the job will come. No family connections, so lots of networking required.

4. Skip the country and find a way to support myself overseas. Maybe take the English teaching route, but I'm open to any possibility. Needs to be somewhere I have a shot with local women.
Pros: Never have to pay off debt. Realize dream of living/working overseas and traveling.
Cons: Can never have a job in the US again without paying off debt.

What do you guys think? Do you have any other ideas?

I dont know what type of law you specialize in, but if you're at a top 6 school I dont see why you shouldnt be able to land a big-city position that pays well. Don't take a government job unless you want to be handcuffed for the next 20 years. Start networking now with firms in NYC, Chicago, maybe DC. My goal would be simply to pull as much cash as possible even if it means working your ass off so you can pay off that $200k ASAP. Don't live large like most of your colleagues. They are doomed to never having freedom before retirement. By the time you pay off your debt, if you're positioned well, your salary might be in the $200-250k range or higher. At that salary, you can work one month and vacation the rest of the year!

Post: #3

(05-07-2010 12:18 PM)gringoed Wrote:  if you're at a top 6 school I dont see why you shouldnt be able to land a big-city position that pays well

this isn't realistic. There are BigLaw firms out there that have two classes of first-year associates deferred. Law will never be as big as it once was; BigLaw isn't a given for graduates of t14 schools anymore. There are plenty of Harvard / Yale / Stanford grads hunting down midlaw jobs right now because they were no-offered. The industry fundamentally changed with the crisis.

Post: #4

I don't think you should go abroad without giving it an honest shot at stabilizing yourself and saving some money first. Two diligent years at home can make the difference between being poor abroad versus having a blast with more money to blow.

Post: #5

The biggest thing coming out of law school should be figuring out which region you want to develop your contacts in and go forward with that. It's a pretty long term plan, so if you for-see yourself getting depressed beforehand, I think it's a good idea to scratch that idea.

I'm guessing you gave some thought to going to law school before you entered, because it would be a big waste doing something else with a first tier degree at this point. So what I would do is tap into your alumni network and get yourself into one of the firms in one of the cities you want to work in.

Post: #6

I think the biggest mistake that you could make right now would be to take off to another country pursuing the ESL lifestyle. Thats always an escape option. Keep that option in mind, and keep it in your back pocket.

But if you do that right now, your completely burning your bridges is law.

With a 200k student debt, some desire to successfully reside in the USA, and no experience abroad, marooning yourself abroad is decidedly a low probability / high risk gamble.

You don't know if the ESL lifestyle is for you or not. The majority of people decide that, in the long term, its not for them.

There are a lot of obstacles that aren't adequately described on the internet, mostly because words can't adequately convey the minutia of what you can face, and reading about living abroad is a lot emotionally different than doing it, especially when you don't have much of an option to come back.

Feelings of depression and isolation are very real for a lot of expats. And if you can't come back, then it would be much worse. Theres nothing like a bad living / working situation abroad to put the benefits of home into perspective.

That red-neck blue collar town may seem like a low stress paradise after a year or two in the wrong place.

Keep in mind that the countries that pay more than survival wages are the countries that suck to live in. Your likely not going to successfully teach ESL in Brazil for very long, for example. You'd hustle for a while, get sick of the instability and low pay, and then jump to a shittier country that pays better. I don't know of any teacher that hasn't followed this path, to shitty better paying countries, and I know a lot of ESL teachers.

Also, do you want to be living paycheck to paycheck at 50 years old? And if you aren't living that way, do you want to be living in the Gulf or in South Korea?

You could get a teaching certification the the USA, teach here fore two years to get the required experience, handling your debt, and then jump off to teach in international schools. You'd have better conditions then, but you'd still be saving a max of 8-10k a year, assuming you stick to better schools, with no type of pension, social security buy-in, or lasting benefits. What will you do when you get older? Even in cheap countries, unless you go extreme third world, your going to spend 12k a year minimum, if your frugal. That pretty much means that you don't even save for a full year of frugal retirement for every year that you work.

If you don't mind never saving much, your entire life, then you could scrape by in a better country. But most 'better' countries lose their patina a few years after being there. It just becomes another place, albeit another place where your a foreigner with no real connections.

If you want a chance to form real connections, be sure to stay in the western hemisphere, because , in Asia, you'll always be an outsider, even if you marry.

My advice would be to make a 5 year plan of attack to get yourself situated in Law. Go mid-level and build some type of specialty skill. Litigation, corporate litigation defense, immigration, trademark, etc..

It should take you at least this long to learn. After the 5 years at a mid-level firm, learning and gaining better perspective on your options, then re-evaluate your situation and decide then. Its the smart and responsible thing to do. Don't lament your loss of Biglaw, as most only last 3 years there anyway. Accept it, and evaluate your mid-law options.

Making $80-100k running your won non-glamorous, but comfortable, immigration boutique in the States might be a much better lifestyle than teaching 8 year old thai kids, for $10 an hour when your 60 years old.

Unless you have a connection to get federal work, or you are a ruthless politician, forget government, imo. But if you can get federal work, thats your best option, because they will pay off your loans eventually, I believe. However, I'm not very versed on the details.

Another option is to go into the Air Force or the Navy. I believe that AF attorneys are inducted at the Captains rank, you get great benefits, and a twenty year retirement path. My cousins all are doing very well for themselves in the Air Force, without bachelor degrees. I'm sure there would be lots of political connections to make at that rank as well, which you could leverage at retirement.

In the meantime, think about what you can learn, and then what you can do to monetize it on the internet. Write a book, put to together a packet of specialty documents, or something else, legal in nature, that you can sell. This extra income would greatly help you to accelerate that loan payoff, and / or to live beyond subsistence levels abroad.

Also, remember, that in this legal market, your greatest value is that of someone who can bring in business. Set up a lead system on the internet to bring in business for any practice of law in which you want to work. You can then go to a firm with this asset as a selling point. Polish your political and social skills and attend events where lawyers, business owners, socialites, and politicians attend. Rubbing elbows with these people is the best and most surefire way into a better law job.

Good luck. I don't envy you, but you have options.

Post: #7

I just don't think two years will be enough. Even on a biglaw salary, two years would be really optimistic to pay down enough debt to make a career switch.

Post: #8

Law school is some depressing sh*t.

Post: #9

@hydrogonian

Yeah, I kind of already knew that you're right. I was sort of hoping to have a career path like my cousin who started out doing ESL in Japan, moved into being an interpreter for Japanese and European corporations there, and finally moved over to the business side.

The only thing that seriously gets me about missing biglaw, other than the money, is that I had started learning Chinese in the hopes of doing a rotation in my firm's HK or Singapore offices. Not going to happen at the immigration firm.

What about the Foreign Service? Do any of you guys know whether you can have a satisfying career doing that?

Post: #10

Like Hydrogonian and Roosh I think is a bad option going abroad, wouldn´t recommend it.

For how long have you been trying to get in Big Law?

Don´t you have classmate friends who got in Big law firms? Send them your resumes and ask if they can get you a interview.

If you keep pushing to get in you will, it´s only a matter of time.

Post: #11

(05-09-2010 11:49 AM)traveling boho Wrote:  @hydrogonian

Yeah, I kind of already knew that you're right. I was sort of hoping to have a career path like my cousin who started out doing ESL in Japan, moved into being an interpreter for Japanese and European corporations there, and finally moved over to the business side.

The only thing that seriously gets me about missing biglaw, other than the money, is that I had started learning Chinese in the hopes of doing a rotation in my firm's HK or Singapore offices. Not going to happen at the immigration firm.

What about the Foreign Service? Do any of you guys know whether you can have a satisfying career doing that?

You can definitely follow your cousins career path, as being a Japanes-English interpreter is a good niche. From my previous research, average income for an interpreter, working full time, is about $60k US. Although, that income is many times realized through piece-meal contract work, and not salary. But maybe you can get salaried. I've heard that headhunting work there is good for foreigners, with 6 figure potential. Being bi-lingual would be a huge advantage in any field there.

It takes about 5 years of FULL TIME motivated study and full time in-country immersion to learn Japanese. Its one of the more difficult languages. You can teach ESL, for a little above subsistence rates, in the meantime. Although, if your a good business person, and relatively attractive, you can make something akin to a middle class income there, teaching ESL, doing contract work and privates. Although, you'll be working a lot.

Personally, I like Japan, and I believe that its the best country, for QOL, in North Asia. Although its as or more expensive than the USA, and you will always be an outsider. Also, they may start having some serious social problems in the future, due to their economy and low birth rate. But thats conjecture.

Foereign service can be good, if you don't mind putting in your time i less than desirable posts. All the benefits of federal work. Take the test and see if you get in. You've got nothing to lose.

Post: #12

I've been abroad for a while, and it's not all fun and games.

Get yourself straightened in US, save some money, figure out a plan and then go abroad.

Post: #13

(05-09-2010 11:31 AM)traveling boho Wrote:  I just don't think two years will be enough. Even on a biglaw salary, two years would be really optimistic to pay down enough debt to make a career switch.

Nothing happens overnight. Even without debt, it takes a lot of time, and a lot of hard work to put anything worthwhile together.

Yes, living at home is a drag, but guess what, a lot of guys here have done it,
and even live overseas now.

Going overseas to default on your loans seems like a terrible option, and one that you'd regret.

Post: #14

I also would advise against going abroad at this time in a way to escape from your obligations.
In what field did you specialise in law? I don't know about the situation in the US, but here in Canada, international law specially if the person speaks any other language besides English and French has a lot of potential. I speak almost 6 languages and International law is what I'd be going into if I decide to finally take the plunge and go into law (which looks highly unlikely as the corporate grind is definitely not for me, even as a high paid lawyer). So check into international law and consider seriously investing the time to master another of the major languages.
As others have already said it, get a job at a mid range law firm in your area and try to work your way up from there to a big law firm until you can pay that 200K back. Make sure while you work that you set up an online stream of income in your spare time and even with part time effort, after 2-3 years, it can start making you enough to live off abroad a relatively stress free lifestyle. But first, take care of that big burden that is your student loan and any other debt you might have, then, you can check out of the Matrix and give the middle finger to the Rat Race.

All the best man.

P.S. Reading your story, is one more reason I'm so reluctant to start Law School.

Post: #15

Vacancier Permanent,

Why are you considering law school? I thought you were trying to escape the rat race/matrix? I thought you were making money online???

Post: #16

Gio,
I've been putting off law school for the past few years. Last year, I applied and was accepted to law school but decided at the last minute to postpone it till the following year. I still have until June 1 to decide whether I want to go this year or not. Law school is my plan C; plan A being my online bizz and plan B is making sure that plan A works. I was considering law school but right now, the likelihood of going to Law school is less than 1% for the simple reason that I don't want to have anything to with the Rat race. I'm focusing right now on my online businesses and I have started to add a 2nd stream to my portfolio so that will keep me busy this summer and the goal is to reach by the end of September, the level of what I was at before the global crisis started in 2008 where I was making very nice $ online. And after that, I'd hit the road again for 6 months in my favorite playground, Brasil.

Post: #17

VP,

Got it. It sounds like Law school is your "back up plan".

Part of good Game is always having a solid back up plan.

Post: #18

Running from debt is bad, always. For example, from my understand from a friend at an american embassy claims that they can do a credit check on you and if you owe enough, deny you pages added to your visa, or even a new passport. Not sure tho if its true, but something to keep in mind.
I forgot about a 100 bank fee when i left the states, and thus am unable to get a single credit card in the states to do any online purchases for a year after i had a relative clear it up. Plus, if you have family back home, you will want to visit some day.

Thats the reason i dropped out of uni to begin with. I figured, why pay someone to teach me stuff that i may use 10% of, when i can find a company to train me, and pay me to teach me stuff i will use 90% of. If i need a degree, ill just buy it one day. I know at least in the American job market, unless you are going for the highly competitive or regulated fields, most places will take your word on any degrees you say you have, at least until they want to drop you (i read somewhere that the easiest way to let someone go in the US is to review their resume for inaccuracies or outright lies.

Post: #19

(05-09-2010 08:34 PM)Vacancier Permanent Wrote:  Gio,
I've been putting off law school for the past few years. Last year, I applied and was accepted to law school but decided at the last minute to postpone it till the following year. I still have until June 1 to decide whether I want to go this year or not. Law school is my plan C; plan A being my online bizz and plan B is making sure that plan A works. I was considering law school but right now, the likelihood of going to Law school is less than 1% for the simple reason that I don't want to have anything to with the Rat race. I'm focusing right now on my online businesses and I have started to add a 2nd stream to my portfolio so that will keep me busy this summer and the goal is to reach by the end of September, the level of what I was at before the global crisis started in 2008 where I was making very nice $ online. And after that, I'd hit the road again for 6 months in my favorite playground, Brasil.

In the US you don't really specialize in an area of law during school. You can take classes in your area of interest, but you don't really develop your specialty until you start to practice. It's common knowledge that you learn very little in law school that will actually help you become a good lawyer.

I don't know what things are like in Canada, but here I don't think I would advise almost anyone to go to law school right now. It's a big gamble unless you're the type who's both insanely smart and driven and you've gotten in to Yale, Harvard or Stanford.

Good that you have other plans that sound better.

Post: #20

(05-10-2010 06:30 AM)AlphaQup2nite Wrote:  Running from debt is bad, always. For example, from my understand from a friend at an american embassy claims that they can do a credit check on you and if you owe enough, deny you pages added to your visa, or even a new passport. Not sure tho if its true, but something to keep in mind.

The single best reason I've read to get a second passport. Start fishing for that Brazilian dime to marry.

Post: #21

Hydro,
Indeed having a 2nd and possibly a 3rd passport is a great piece of the puzzle to be a true international player. Just keep in mind though that with a Brasilian passport, you would still need a visa to enter the US and Canada. So better to focus on a EU passport where you can enter the US/Canada freely with no visa. But a Brasilian passport is a good one to start with to live in Brasil full time.

Post: #22

as far as Foreign Service this can be a great gig if you can get in. you spend 2 or 3 years in a foreign country getting american wages then you come back home for 2/3 years, then you go back out. some people hate it because they are on the move every 2 or 3 years but if you are the kind of person who really doesnt want to be in the same place for 20 years and hates having the same routine staring him in the face for 20 years plus you want to have some sort of a career its a great option. one of my friends does it and really enjoys it, although for some it can be difficult on family. but if you are a decent looking single guy who gets sent to a country pretty much anywhere but africa you are making bank, set up in a nice apartment, and can live like a rockstar/professional athlete

Post: #23

(05-10-2010 02:27 PM)Vacancier Permanent Wrote:  Hydro,
Indeed having a 2nd and possibly a 3rd passport is a great piece of the puzzle to be a true international player. Just keep in mind though that with a Brasilian passport, you would still need a visa to enter the US and Canada. So better to focus on a EU passport where you can enter the US/Canada freely with no visa. But a Brasilian passport is a good one to start with to live in Brasil full time.

Any solutions to this, besides marriage?

I don't have any significant lineage (as in grandparents that were off the boat).

I wonder how all of those people from Muslim countries manage to get citizenship in the Netherlands and Scandinavia. As far as I know, they are strict countries as far as immigration is concerned.

Post: #24

Last i heard, its easy as hell to get a Belize citizenship. 5 Years ago all you needed was to own property there.

Im sad i missed my window for a Taiwanese passport. I could have gotten it anytime easily before 18, but now that im over 18, i need to live there 2 years consecutively.

But it seems like now marriage is the best opportunity for many many countries. Unless you know black market passports, which i dont. I would be nice to have one tho, just for emergencies.

Post: #25

I can relate to your situation. It sounds like you are sick of law school and have the travel bug. I would say take a short trip (say 4-6 weeks) and it won't hurt you at all. Or find and accept a job, but delay the start date by 3 months. Finally if you don't find a job by December, you can easily go on vacation from early Dec to mid January as nothing gets don during this period anyway.

I'd say get a few years experience as a lawyer, THEN GO ABROAD. Then you can say you are a lawyer. Right now, you are simply a student. I believe that there are lots of legal opportunities abroad. You also hit the right crowd. Lots of people here from the DC area the non Biglaw capital of the US.

Finally, what you can do, is go abroad right now for a year, and say that you were studying for the bar. Actually, i am not sure how this works, I'm not in the legal profession, scratch that. Good luck.