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The Bitcoin (BTC) thread
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redbeard Offline
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Post: #8201
RE: The Bitcoin (BTC) thread
(07-14-2019 05:43 PM)zoom Wrote:  Also the market is irrational.

All markets are irrational.

Quote:Recently the price went up but it wasn't because there was a bunch of new interest in Bitcoin. It's a few whales manipulating the market.

Prove it.

Why didn't BCH whales manipulate BCH price as well? Or is CSW too busy in court?

Quote:Also, aren't you on record saying that BTC needs to increase its blocksize eventually?

Where in my post did I mention block size? I'm explaining the importance of price, and you're trying to red herring me.

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07-14-2019 05:50 PM
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Post: #8202
RE: The Bitcoin (BTC) thread
To me it seems clear that the price rose from tether manipulation by a few whales.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/tether-fu...02981.html

You can honestly say that the price rose dramatically from new interest in Bitcoin? I don't foresee much new interest coming. The concept of digital gold is not very exciting.
07-14-2019 05:59 PM
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JayJuanGee Offline
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Post: #8203
RE: The Bitcoin (BTC) thread
(07-14-2019 05:35 PM)zoom Wrote:  
(07-14-2019 04:42 PM)JayJuanGee Wrote:  Get the fuck out of here suggesting that I have not sufficiently responded to your repeated point about fees and transaction times. You figure out what you want to do and you can add up the frees in terms of how you want to transact.

For global adoption as a currency a 1mb block size limit would never work.

The main thing is that 1mb is working great now, and we have about 1% world adoption, so maybe it will get bigger and maybe not.

Right now, it is not broken with 1mb (which really has been processing much beyond 1mb with the combination of segregated witness.. and may be some off-chain solutions are going to further evolve, too, such as lightning network).

Furthermore, if the current size needs to evolve in the upwards direction, then it likely will be able to... especially if the community supports such an evolution through consensus.
07-14-2019 06:09 PM
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Post: #8204
RE: The Bitcoin (BTC) thread
(07-14-2019 06:09 PM)JayJuanGee Wrote:  The main thing is that 1mb is working great now, and we have about 1% world adoption, so maybe it will get bigger and maybe not.

I disagree that it's working great.

For the record I don't have anything against you, Redbeard or any other BTC supporter. I just have a fundamental difference of opinion on what Bitcoin is and the direction that it's going.
(This post was last modified: 07-14-2019 06:16 PM by zoom.)
07-14-2019 06:16 PM
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Post: #8205
RE: The Bitcoin (BTC) thread
(07-14-2019 05:25 PM)Dr. Howard Wrote:  
(07-14-2019 02:54 PM)zoom Wrote:  
(07-14-2019 02:32 PM)Dr. Howard Wrote:  Interesting! So trump was following the standard reactionary script that is being fed to the IRS and other agencies while the Fed chairman doesn't see it as a threat at all, he also sees it as running parallel to the multi currency era of the late 1800s/wild west.

I don't see how Bitcoin could be a threat to the US dollar. Bitcoin BTC does not scale so it's capped at about only 400,000 transactions per day. For this reason many people think of BTC as a "digital gold".

Other cryptocurrencies that can scale could possibly become a treat in the future.

Can other forum members chime in on this? I don't know enough about it. Does something need to be built on top of Bitcoin BTC in order for it to act as a currency?

Is the premise the same idea as to why you can't use hunks of gold as fluid currency? ie. the transaction cost to weigh and proof the gold would be too expensive to use it to buy something like a candy bar?


Bitcoin can already serve as a currency. It is just a matter of wider adoption. Of course transaction fees or transaction times might determine whether or how a person might transact, but the capability is already there, including the ability to create pretty much any size transaction that you want.

By the way, on lightning network there has been a decent amount of experimentation with sending and receiving micro-transactions, and then paying fractions of a satoshi to send the transactions. The transaction sizes, speed, fee amounts, and other practicality situations are a bit of a moving target too, so if certain merchants do not have lightning nodes t sizes then you might not be able to transact with them through lightning network. Also there has been a decent amount of criticism of the technical complications of lightning network that may or may not be resolved in order to really make lightning network a good payment processing mechanism on bitcoin, so there may be a need to wait for more development which would reasonably including anticipation of more user friendly mechanisms and wider adoption that facilitate the creation of better user interface options.
(This post was last modified: 07-14-2019 06:41 PM by JayJuanGee.)
07-14-2019 06:16 PM
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Post: #8206
RE: The Bitcoin (BTC) thread
(07-14-2019 05:59 PM)zoom Wrote:  To me it seems clear that the price rose from tether manipulation by a few whales.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/tether-fu...02981.html

To me it seems clear that there are always a lot of single factor theories that are falsely proclaiming to be able to show correlation and even causation.

(07-14-2019 05:59 PM)zoom Wrote:  You can honestly say that the price rose dramatically from new interest in Bitcoin? I don't foresee much new interest coming. The concept of digital gold is not very exciting.

I understand that you were directing this question to redbeard, zoom, but jesus.

You have been in bitcoin long enough to recognize that bitcoin is not merely one use case? Do you recognize that you can travel with bitcoin, and no one can tell you a damned thing about being able to access you bitcoins from anywhere? That is if anyone were to know whether or not you have access to bitcoins?

Regarding price movement, there are decent theories out trying to proclaim that this latest BTC price movement up from $4,200 on April 1 to $13,880 in late June has been largely caused by financialization and just existing buyers advancing their position by accumulating more bitcoin, but who knows? and really who cares?

It seems fairly inevitable to me that more and more folks are coming into bitcoin and it might not really matter with precision from where they might be coming, but it might matter whether BTC price continues to have a decent amount of upwards and ongoing price pressures, and I expect the ongoing and upwards pressures in bitcoin's price to last 1-2 years, and who knows if some of the crap coins are going to pump too, or not. But, it does not matter to me, either, whether the crap coins pump or not.. because they are likely going to still be hanging onto the coattails of bitcoin, anyhow, because largely none of them offer anything even close to what bitcoin is offering, and that is largely, also reflected in a kind of sustainable and ongoing upwards price that is very likely to continue in bitcoin (even if some shit coins might be pumped for shorter periods).
07-14-2019 06:29 PM
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JayJuanGee Offline
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Post: #8207
RE: The Bitcoin (BTC) thread
I was trying to combine this response with another of my responses, but I kind of screwed it up... so I will just post it separately...

(07-14-2019 06:16 PM)zoom Wrote:  
(07-14-2019 06:09 PM)JayJuanGee Wrote:  The main thing is that 1mb is working great now, and we have about 1% world adoption, so maybe it will get bigger and maybe not.

I disagree that it's working great.

For the record I don't have anything against you, Redbeard or any other BTC supporter. I just have a fundamental difference of opinion on what Bitcoin is and the direction that it's going.

Can't disagree that you disagree or that from time to time you choose to elaborate upon your various disagreements, even though I still believe that some of your disagreements remain spouting out of nonsense talking points, but, hey, surely you have a right to attempt to continue to make those points, while also some of the disagreement might merely be putting your money where your mouth is and to see whether and how your investment might pay out... but of course, you are wanting to disagree about price being any kind of significant measure too, and you have a right to do that as well, and I will laugh at you all the way to the bank (like I did on the inside regarding your spouting out about the greatness of bcash in late 2017).

Anyhow, guys surely should be making their own choices regarding how to invest and
how to apportion their investment in light of their circumstances, and hopefully we are mostly attempting to focus on bitcoin here rather than getting too distracted with some other investments or investment strategies, even though that can be kind of related too, especially if we at least make some attempts to make some kind of connection with discussing bitcoin related matters, too.
07-14-2019 06:42 PM
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redbeard Offline
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Post: #8208
RE: The Bitcoin (BTC) thread
(07-14-2019 05:59 PM)zoom Wrote:  To me it seems clear that the price rose from tether manipulation by a few whales.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/tether-fu...02981.html

You can honestly say that the price rose dramatically from new interest in Bitcoin? I don't foresee much new interest coming. The concept of digital gold is not very exciting.

I do agree that Tether is a virus hurting Bitcoin long term. I am one of the biggest Bitfinex skeptics out there. That being said, it could be YEARS until there are actual BTC implications for Tether/Bitfinex wrongdoings.

As a Bitcoiner, I hate Tether. As a trader, I embrace it.

After a while you learn to ignore the sketchiness that goes on the background. I trade the chart and that's it. You don't want to be like Bitfinex'd who sold all of his BTC at $1k and never back bought in, because he was scared of Tether.

(07-14-2019 06:16 PM)zoom Wrote:  
(07-14-2019 06:09 PM)JayJuanGee Wrote:  The main thing is that 1mb is working great now, and we have about 1% world adoption, so maybe it will get bigger and maybe not.

I disagree that it's working great.

Again, fortunately we have the free market, and the free market thinks 1 MB is working GREAT. Last I checked the Bitcoin blockchain transmitted fifteen billion freakin' dollars in the past 24 hours. Sounds like it's working!

Quote:For the record I don't have anything against you, Redbeard or any other BTC supporter. I just have a fundamental difference of opinion on what Bitcoin is and the direction that it's going.

Likewise, I might come off as a toxic maximalist but I have nothing personal against you or any of the other altcoiners. Having spent a good bit of time going down the altcoin rabbit hole, I sympathize with you.

At the end of the day, Bitcoin isn't perfect. However hands down - it's our best bet.

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(This post was last modified: 07-14-2019 08:41 PM by redbeard.)
07-14-2019 08:41 PM
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RE: The Bitcoin (BTC) thread
(07-14-2019 01:32 PM)Nolimitz Wrote:  https://youtu.be/sE7LD1ZsiCU

Here’s a link to Willy Woo calling for BTC retracement to 9k based on NVT.

I did follow up by watching that video that you linked, Nolimitz.

Perhaps, largely, the willy woo level of retracement has already occurred... with our bouncing below $10k to $9,855 in the past few hours?

I would not claim to know exactly when the correction is over, and especially our current price is decently within striking distance to correct down a bit further and perhaps even to surpass the correction down to $9,614 from a couple of weeks ago.

Of course, none of us should get too caught up with the predictions of some of these proclaimed experts, even though many of them are likely making some genuine efforts to take into account relevant facts, and willy woo has gained some notoriety in that regard in recent times.

On the other hand, in the above linked video, Willy woo is being interviewed on Tone Vays show in the presence of Tyler Jenks, and both Vays and Jenks are likely attempting to redeem some of their credibility after their seemingly ongoing and overly bearish short-term calls, and they come off a bit wishy washy in some of their recent reluctantly bullish transitionings while at that same time trying to stay consistent in their assertion that $3k or even $1k is not completely off the table.. which any of us should realize that any scenario is possible, including 1% scenarios but we should not be spending much time talking about 1% scenarios, unless we happen to be Tyler Jenks or Tone Vays who happened to assign a lot higher likelihoods to those scenarios in very recent times...

Probably, Nolimitz, that is part of the reason that I was questioning some of your ideas, plans and strategies, because hopefully you are not placing too much weight into scenarios that are described by others, but to take those scenarios with a grain of salt and to hopefully come up with some of your own assessments to the extent that you also might be learning about the space too, which might make it more understandable that you could be giving more weight to some of the known BTC prognosticators, such as willy woo.... even if he happens to be on the Tone Vays show and accompanied by Tyler Jenks... Banana
07-15-2019 12:11 AM
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RE: The Bitcoin (BTC) thread
(07-14-2019 04:21 PM)JayJuanGee Wrote:  
(07-14-2019 04:11 PM)zoom Wrote:  
(07-14-2019 03:37 PM)JayJuanGee Wrote:  I can hardly believe that you still feel comfortable propagating that quite apparently debunked talking point. Perhaps you really believe it, but it should seem decently obvious by now that bcash and some of that other trash are merely serving as clownish attempts to coattail on the various strengths of bitcoin, including its name and its network effects.. and smart money seems to be showing that they are not that dumb to get onboard, so instead, bcash pumpers like to pander to various bitcoin forums and attempt to confuse newbies into believing either that bitcoin is broken and/or that their dumbass shit coin is the solution to bitcoin's various supposed ills.

Good luck with that... Hey.. you remind me that maybe I should post a thread that relates to how poorly the various shitcoins have been performing, recently, as compared with bitcoin, but likely still is not going to get you from stopping talking about your hopium that one of these other bagholding coins that you are holding will perhaps pump a bit.. perhaps? based on smoke and mirrors? and rounding up naive folks?

Looks like I triggered JayJuanGee. I thought you were now posting exclusively at a different forum?

What "debunked" talking point? The fees for sending BTC will rise significantly if more on-chain transactions are performed. You have to be one of the most delusional Bitcoin maximalists I have ever come across.

If you want to create a new thread on alt-coins then you are free to do so. I don't care that much about price as I have mentioned before. To reiterate, I think price is one of the least interesting aspects of cryptocurrency.

You seem to be rising to the level of a troll, Zoom. You keep raising the same nonsense talking points because you want to pump your coins and attempt to denigrate bitcoin, but seems like even the price movements of bitcoin versus the various shit coins likely shows some aspects about the market speaking.

So, you seem to be a delusional one who is also now suggesting that you might be posting in the appropriate thread in spite of your seeming bcash baggage? Bcash is not bitcoin, even though you want to keep on with your own delusion and to push that boloney as if it were bitcoin and as if were speaking some kind of relevance in relation to bitcoin.. when bcash talking points seem to be BIG ass distractions rather than actually having much of any real meaningful relevance to KING daddy bitcoin.

Here's a tweet of a chart from July 3 that might give some juxtaposition showing of how little important price matters.

https://twitter.com/WhiteRabbitBTC/statu...5057286144

[Image: ?u=https%3A%2F%2Fpbs.twimg.com%2Fmedia%2...QDmQ30_sjw]

To supplement my earlier post, here is the link and the chart that I had meant to post that shows how other coins have performed as compared to bitcoin and you can refresh on it on an ongoing basis, if you like.

https://www.coingecko.com/en/coins/ath
07-15-2019 01:03 AM
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Dr. Howard Away
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RE: The Bitcoin (BTC) thread
I've started to put some of my mandatory tax training courses into Crypto. Things I learned today which I did not know previously:

1. Trading one coin for another (BTC to ETH for example) is a taxable event
2. IRS Criminal division spent 1 million dollars on data miners to ID people using crypto
3. IRS Criminal enforcement is wrapping up most of its big time money launderer cases and will be passing the baton to just busting regular people (aka civil audits) once that work is done.

In short, keep good records! Via tax software or otherwise.

Why do the heathen rage and the people imagine a vain thing? Psalm 2:1 KJV
07-18-2019 12:20 PM
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Kid Twist Offline
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RE: The Bitcoin (BTC) thread
Doc, do you suggest that to get the full bang for buck with crypto then, try to get dirty coins and do cash maneuvers? I feel like if you are in coinbase, the IRS says, "Oh, thank you for declaring yourself, John Q.!"

Get your passport ready!
07-18-2019 01:06 PM
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RE: The Bitcoin (BTC) thread
(07-18-2019 01:06 PM)Kid Twist Wrote:  Doc, do you suggest that to get the full bang for buck with crypto then, try to get dirty coins and do cash maneuvers? I feel like if you are in coinbase, the IRS says, "Oh, thank you for declaring yourself, John Q.!"

Looks like you, kid twist, are twisting the words of doc.

In essence, we could read Doc's statement in a more charitable way as: "be careful out there, boys."
07-18-2019 01:11 PM
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RE: The Bitcoin (BTC) thread
It’s 2019, there are countless reputable CPA firms that will handle calculating crypto tax burden for you. No excuses.

Or you could just HODL and never sell.

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(This post was last modified: 07-18-2019 01:22 PM by redbeard.)
07-18-2019 01:21 PM
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RE: The Bitcoin (BTC) thread
(07-18-2019 01:21 PM)redbeard Wrote:  It’s 2019, there are countless reputable CPA firms that will handle calculating crypto tax burden for you. No excuses.

Or you could just HODL and never sell.

Anyone complaining about our little BTC price bounce in the past 8 hours-ish - I mean, first we got a decent amount of down, and then we got ourselves a $1k candle, and additional UP after that.

So HODLers should not be complaining. Of course, there could have been some BTC buying opportunities while the BTC price is going down, but we have to learn NOT to be either too greedy or to smug about being able to get BTC at lower prices in the future...

We have seen those kinds of "down before up" price predictions over and over again in bitcoin, which frequently will leave guys either without coins or having to compromise by buying their coins at a much higher price while chasing the price up...

I personally prefer to make buy attempts on the way down, rather than waiting, but hey that's just me, and that is probably just why I have been able to accumulate a decent amount of coins and tend to hold them during down periods and buy more rather than taking any chances on selling on the way down or waiting too long before I add to my stash.
07-18-2019 02:05 PM
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Dr. Howard Away
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RE: The Bitcoin (BTC) thread
(07-18-2019 01:21 PM)redbeard Wrote:  It’s 2019, there are countless reputable CPA firms that will handle calculating crypto tax burden for you. No excuses.

Or you could just HODL and never sell.

This wouldn't be a bad idea if someone were really paranoid. Buy, hold and wait for more clarity from the US government and/or the IRS to move onto its next focus program. The reporting burden would be zero.

Why do the heathen rage and the people imagine a vain thing? Psalm 2:1 KJV
07-18-2019 02:20 PM
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RE: The Bitcoin (BTC) thread
Or wait until BTC becomes the world’s currency. The reporting burden would be zero.

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07-18-2019 02:52 PM
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RE: The Bitcoin (BTC) thread
(07-18-2019 02:52 PM)redbeard Wrote:  Or wait until BTC becomes the world’s currency. The reporting burden would be zero.

As long as you don't become so stubborn about the world reserve currency status that you act against your interest.

Surely, sometimes guys put way to god damned weight on paying taxes. I was speaking with a nocoiner recently, and when that guy framed the making of money as a tax burden, I reminded him that he is only having to pay taxes on profits, so in that regard, I would much rather pay taxes on a 10x profit or whatever it happens to be at various times of cashing in than being so tax avoidance bitter that a guy ends up engaging in dumb behavior.

I have another example of a guy who felt so damned compelled to sell his peasely investment in bitcoin at the end of 2018 because it was his only investment that was in the negative, and he wanted to offset his other taxes by writing off the bitcoin part. Seems to have been a kind of lack of patience or perspective, and I know that he continues to just chomp at the bits to be right about his decision, and I barely talk with him about it, but he is sometimes present around other people when I am talking about bitcoin, and I mostly just don't use him as an example.. and our last conversation was that I had bought something off of him in about early-2018, and the then price of the bitcoin was $7,200, and at that time I said that he could do whatever he likes but if he at least hung onto that amount for a few years, his odds would be pretty decent to be able to cash out at a decent profit. It was not even that much money, so when our mid 2019 conversation came after BTC prices had returned above his receiving price, he told me that he had already sold that bitcoin plus all of his other bitcoin based on taxes and also that if he averaged them all out, the BTC price would have to go above $8k for him to be profitable (after taxes). I thought that his position was a bit ridiculous, and I think that he has been kind of shocked to have seen BTC prices up to $13,880.. and his sitting on the sidelines as a nocoiner.. and furthermore, I also had been telling him about bitcoin since late 2014 in the sub $400s, more or less, with him continuing to naysay the whole bitcoin thingie-ma-jiggie even though I know that he has really seen the ongoing crazy ass BTC price changes during that period.

So anyhow punchline could be that BTC takes 50 years to get to world reserve status, or gosh even 20-30 years could be pushing matters, and guys should not necessarily wait to begin to spend some of the fruits of their profits.... Maybe even 10-15 years should be enough, if you have been somewhat accumulating of bitcoin, rather than gambling with it.

Anyhow, since I am already into my 50s and I also have some health issues that could take me out sooner than normal guys, I have decent hesitations to wait more than a few more years before increasing my ways to more greatly enjoy the fruits of my on paper bitcoin profits. By the way, sometimes guys poo poo "on paper" profits as not being sufficiently real, but in my experience, frequently, those "on paper" profits can free the spending of assets in other areas, so even if I am not cashing out my BTC specifically, I truly seem to be living a decently well and better lifestyle based on those BTC "on paper" assets/profits and the freeing of my ability to more greatly spend some of my other assets in the spirit of Gresham's law....i.e. to spend the less valuable stuff first. Banana
07-18-2019 03:58 PM
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Manbeline Offline
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Post: #8219
RE: The Bitcoin (BTC) thread
(07-18-2019 12:20 PM)Dr. Howard Wrote:  I've started to put some of my mandatory tax training courses into Crypto. Things I learned today which I did not know previously:

1. Trading one coin for another (BTC to ETH for example) is a taxable event
2. IRS Criminal division spent 1 million dollars on data miners to ID people using crypto
3. IRS Criminal enforcement is wrapping up most of its big time money launderer cases and will be passing the baton to just busting regular people (aka civil audits) once that work is done.

In short, keep good records! Via tax software or otherwise.

Ha, the jew is scared. Taxing crypto is the stupidest thing ever, especially since they are taxing you for their money instead of crypto money.

"We'll steal more of your USD for making money from BTC despite us not acknowledging it as an official currency."
07-18-2019 06:19 PM
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Dr. Howard Away
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Post: #8220
RE: The Bitcoin (BTC) thread
(07-18-2019 06:19 PM)Manbeline Wrote:  
(07-18-2019 12:20 PM)Dr. Howard Wrote:  I've started to put some of my mandatory tax training courses into Crypto. Things I learned today which I did not know previously:

1. Trading one coin for another (BTC to ETH for example) is a taxable event
2. IRS Criminal division spent 1 million dollars on data miners to ID people using crypto
3. IRS Criminal enforcement is wrapping up most of its big time money launderer cases and will be passing the baton to just busting regular people (aka civil audits) once that work is done.

In short, keep good records! Via tax software or otherwise.

Ha, the jew is scared. Taxing crypto is the stupidest thing ever, especially since they are taxing you for their money instead of crypto money.

"We'll steal more of your USD for making money from BTC despite us not acknowledging it as an official currency."

I am actually looking forward to the first case where a person with a lot of crypto assets goes to trial. Its for a reason similar to what you are saying.

So, the IRS issues a tax judgement, then asset seizure...how do they seize the assets? If he has it in wallets off of any exchanges, they can't. Sure they can sentence him to prison like Wesley Snipes but they can't collect.

I think a real example may be John Macafee, who is currently on the run from the IRS. He taunted them about Crypto in January, they subsequently started a criminal investigation into his taxes and he got the heck out of the USA.

Why do the heathen rage and the people imagine a vain thing? Psalm 2:1 KJV
07-18-2019 06:48 PM
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Post: #8221
RE: The Bitcoin (BTC) thread
(07-18-2019 06:19 PM)Manbeline Wrote:  
(07-18-2019 12:20 PM)Dr. Howard Wrote:  I've started to put some of my mandatory tax training courses into Crypto. Things I learned today which I did not know previously:

1. Trading one coin for another (BTC to ETH for example) is a taxable event
2. IRS Criminal division spent 1 million dollars on data miners to ID people using crypto
3. IRS Criminal enforcement is wrapping up most of its big time money launderer cases and will be passing the baton to just busting regular people (aka civil audits) once that work is done.

In short, keep good records! Via tax software or otherwise.

Ha, the jew is scared. Taxing crypto is the stupidest thing ever, especially since they are taxing you for their money instead of crypto money.

"We'll steal more of your USD for making money from BTC despite us not acknowledging it as an official currency."

I guess I understand your point, Manbeline, in terms of the contradictions that are
within USA govt's current approach to bitcoin and/or other crypto currencies.

If RVF guys choose to invest in bitcoin then they are likely going to have some difficulties trying to figure out what to do exactly, and Dr. Howard is making a statement regarding some obstacles that might exist and also, perhaps, some surveillance activities, enforcement activities of the USA Govt.

One way to avoid a lot of this is to remain a nocoiner, but personally, I have remained active in this thread for more than 5.5 years in part because I considered bitcoin to be a very decent hedge against the dollar and also other dollar based systems. Surely, my knowledge of the situation has evolved during that time, and sometimes I have found some quagmires regarding speculations about the degree or directions that regulations would evolve, and surely bitcoin still seems to give guys more rather than fewer options, even if the evolving space can also cause a decent amount of headaches too.

I, personally, have found some problematic aspects in discussing some of these matters to the extent that you or perhaps kidtwist's earlier post had been hinting at some kinds of non-compliance or even ways to bypass some of the tax matters. Of course, there are likely ways to engage in tax avoidance or attempts to minimize tax without evading taxes, but personally, I would rather NOT get into too many of these kinds of details, even though some guys want to talk about these matters and to bring them up. Surely, consulting with an accountant would be helpful too, and there are likely some additional resources, and maybe Dr. Howard wants to continue to pursue this topic.. and, at least the topic is bitcoin related..
07-18-2019 06:51 PM
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JayJuanGee Offline
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Post: #8222
RE: The Bitcoin (BTC) thread
(07-18-2019 06:48 PM)Dr. Howard Wrote:  
(07-18-2019 06:19 PM)Manbeline Wrote:  
(07-18-2019 12:20 PM)Dr. Howard Wrote:  I've started to put some of my mandatory tax training courses into Crypto. Things I learned today which I did not know previously:

1. Trading one coin for another (BTC to ETH for example) is a taxable event
2. IRS Criminal division spent 1 million dollars on data miners to ID people using crypto
3. IRS Criminal enforcement is wrapping up most of its big time money launderer cases and will be passing the baton to just busting regular people (aka civil audits) once that work is done.

In short, keep good records! Via tax software or otherwise.

Ha, the jew is scared. Taxing crypto is the stupidest thing ever, especially since they are taxing you for their money instead of crypto money.

"We'll steal more of your USD for making money from BTC despite us not acknowledging it as an official currency."

I am actually looking forward to the first case where a person with a lot of crypto assets goes to trial. Its for a reason similar to what you are saying.

So, the IRS issues a tax judgement, then asset seizure...how do they seize the assets? If he has it in wallets off of any exchanges, they can't. Sure they can sentence him to prison like Wesley Snipes but they can't collect.

I think a real example may be John Macafee, who is currently on the run from the IRS. He taunted them about Crypto in January, they subsequently started a criminal investigation into his taxes and he got the heck out of the USA.

To the extent that you are wanting clarification, then I agree with you. To the extent that you are seeking guys to suffer then I have less sympathy in your point, but surely I understand if a person is really public and engaging in taunting activities, then it can cause the personal situation to become more of a public conversation.

We also currently have some crypto attention, in recent times, with the hearings in regard to facebook coin and its plans, and perhaps regulatory clarity could be inspired from those hearings too.. rather than the courts, but surely I cannot disagree with you that the courts surely have a purpose, and if guys are violating existing laws, then prosecutors have a job too.

On the other hand, sometimes we can argue about the justice or injustices that come out of high profile cases like Ross Ulbricht or Charlie Shrem, too. There is not a complete shortage of public cases in relation to bitcoin, but surely there is a lot of development and adapting of existing law and perhaps some needs for regulatory clarity, too.
07-18-2019 06:59 PM
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Dr. Howard Away
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Post: #8223
RE: The Bitcoin (BTC) thread
(07-18-2019 06:59 PM)JayJuanGee Wrote:  
(07-18-2019 06:48 PM)Dr. Howard Wrote:  
(07-18-2019 06:19 PM)Manbeline Wrote:  
(07-18-2019 12:20 PM)Dr. Howard Wrote:  I've started to put some of my mandatory tax training courses into Crypto. Things I learned today which I did not know previously:

1. Trading one coin for another (BTC to ETH for example) is a taxable event
2. IRS Criminal division spent 1 million dollars on data miners to ID people using crypto
3. IRS Criminal enforcement is wrapping up most of its big time money launderer cases and will be passing the baton to just busting regular people (aka civil audits) once that work is done.

In short, keep good records! Via tax software or otherwise.

Ha, the jew is scared. Taxing crypto is the stupidest thing ever, especially since they are taxing you for their money instead of crypto money.

"We'll steal more of your USD for making money from BTC despite us not acknowledging it as an official currency."

I am actually looking forward to the first case where a person with a lot of crypto assets goes to trial. Its for a reason similar to what you are saying.

So, the IRS issues a tax judgement, then asset seizure...how do they seize the assets? If he has it in wallets off of any exchanges, they can't. Sure they can sentence him to prison like Wesley Snipes but they can't collect.

I think a real example may be John Macafee, who is currently on the run from the IRS. He taunted them about Crypto in January, they subsequently started a criminal investigation into his taxes and he got the heck out of the USA.

To the extent that you are wanting clarification, then I agree with you. To the extent that you are seeking guys to suffer then I have less sympathy in your point, but surely I understand if a person is really public and engaging in taunting activities, then it can cause the personal situation to become more of a public conversation.

We also currently have some crypto attention, in recent times, with the hearings in regard to facebook coin and its plans, and perhaps regulatory clarity could be inspired from those hearings too.. rather than the courts, but surely I cannot disagree with you that the courts surely have a purpose, and if guys are violating existing laws, then prosecutors have a job too.

On the other hand, sometimes we can argue about the justice or injustices that come out of high profile cases like Ross Ulbricht or Charlie Shrem, too. There is not a complete shortage of public cases in relation to bitcoin, but surely there is a lot of development and adapting of existing law and perhaps some needs for regulatory clarity, too.

This is the point, I'm curious to see how the IRS proceeds with asset seizure in a case involving digital currency, especially in one where the target is not cooperative (Macafee)

Its not a wish for harm, but being a 'tax guy' I like to follow these things. It could be the next great tax protester case similar to the saga of Irwin Schiff or even all of the way back to the Whiskey Rebellion in George Washington's time.

I would also reinforce something I agree with in your (Jay JuanGee's previous reply). This thread and forum is not the place to discuss any kind of criminal activity including tax evasion. Furthermore, given that crypto is a 'sensitive' tax topic its probably not even a place to discuss legal tax avoidance strategy. Compliance and good records are the only safe bet until there is more guidance and case law involving a risk taker with deeper pockets for tax court and attorneys. Let them fight it out first and make the paths clear.

Why do the heathen rage and the people imagine a vain thing? Psalm 2:1 KJV
(This post was last modified: 07-18-2019 07:29 PM by Dr. Howard.)
07-18-2019 07:16 PM
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Manbeline Offline
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RE: The Bitcoin (BTC) thread
Wait, are you guys seriously afraid of criticizing taxes? We can pay them and still say we dislike them. I know Washington currently is overthrown by the cartels of the banks, but they can't come after you or I without a legit case. Being able to talk about how to preserve the money is not a sin, and don't make anyone else make you believe it. Cause the government and the Federal Reserve already have all of your purchasing power and interest free funds at their disposal.
07-18-2019 08:02 PM
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JayJuanGee Offline
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Post: #8225
RE: The Bitcoin (BTC) thread
(07-18-2019 08:02 PM)Manbeline Wrote:  Wait, are you guys seriously afraid of criticizing taxes?

You seem to be reading too much into either my statement or the statement of Dr. Howard.. but yeah, let the doc defend himself further if he believes he needs to or wants to.

I hardly see a BIG ASS discussion of taxes to be very relevant to this thread, but if you want to make out some kind of case regarding why the topic is relevant to bitcoin, then so be it. That's your choice.

(07-18-2019 08:02 PM)Manbeline Wrote:  We can pay them and still say we dislike them.
Is anyone here saying anything different?


Sure the doc said that he is in the tax business so, of course, professionally he might be more nerdily interested in that particular topic than some other guys, perhaps?


(07-18-2019 08:02 PM)Manbeline Wrote:  I know Washington currently is overthrown by the cartels of the banks, but they can't come after you or I without a legit case.

Yeah, but who gives any shits? Seems like you are wanting to turn this into some kind of political discussion regarding the power of government, and I am not sure where that gets us exactly in regards to the topic of this thread if you are wanting to talk about those ideas abstractly, and in regards to bitcoin, there are a whole hell of a lot of ways that bitcoin could play out in the future in regards to how much it might influence or change government or be battled against by government. There are a lot of bitcoin angles, but I doubt that an abstract discussion about government is really that topical or helpful here, is it?

(07-18-2019 08:02 PM)Manbeline Wrote:  Being able to talk about how to preserve the money is not a sin, and don't make anyone else make you believe it.

I think that both the doc and I were suggesting that restricting ourselves about certain topics in a public thread might be more of a privacy concern rather than either a sin or something that we are afraid to discuss. The other part is topicality, and I think that we would be getting way too far afield if we were to diverge down preservation of capital or whatever the fuck topic that you want to talk about unless you were at least making some kind of attempt to connect that topic to bitcoin.

I have repeated many times that I got into bitcoin in order to hedge against the dollar, but also there is likely a bit of autonomy thinking in there, too. So I have no real aversion to making sure that I am attempting to empower myself in terms of what kinds of financial tools that I have available, including through the use of bitcoin. Now if you are suggesting that there might be ways to save taxes by brainstorming in a public thread about it, then I would question how useful that would be, and personally, I am not really that interested in the topic, because I think that the topic of making a lot of money through bitcoin is a good one, and when you have a decent amount of money, then paying taxes might not be as BIG of a concern.

Yeah, I understand that there are a lot of guys, and possibly even RVF guys, that have accumulated so much damned money, and they would like to pay no taxes if they could get away with it, but I doubt that it is really fruitful to talk about these kinds of matters in a public thread, in the event that such situation might apply to you, and I doubt that smart rich people talk about those kinds of things in public threads... and then the other matter is relating it to bitcoin in some kind of way.

Some of you might remember Rawmeo, he was a member of this forum and a participant of this thread, and he was the alleged owner of the alphabay website who ended up supposedly killing himself in a Thai jail. Well, we did not really know about any of that through Rawmeo until after he was already dead, and I am not sure if his talking about the situation in this thread would have been helpful to him on any kind of personal level.. It may have even made his case worse, perhaps?

If you want to present some issues in thread, then you can, but some guys, including me, might not want to delve into very many personal details, and I might even suggest that other guys do not post some of those kinds of personal details, either, just because it does not seem to be a good practice, and it is not about being afraid or wimpy or cow-towing to the government or whatever...

Furthermore, some people might consider that any guy trying to push those kinds of topics in public might be a government agent.. .. reasonable assessment? even high trust members will tend to avoid pushing any of those kinds of topics.


(07-18-2019 08:02 PM)Manbeline Wrote:  Cause the government and the Federal Reserve already have all of your purchasing power and interest free funds at their disposal.

Well, if you think that there is nothing that guys can do or that bitcoin is some kind of tool of the government or some other looney theories about whether there are ways that guys can use bitcoin to their advantage or within their discretion, then maybe you should elaborate on some of your theories.

I think that it is already decently clear that bitcoin provides the potential for a decent amount of power in fuck you money, whether we are talking about saying fuck you to an employer because of achieving financial independence or just the ability to transfer value without having to ask for permission or to use the services of any third party intermediate. Once you learn some of the basic, you don't necessarily need to elaborate on details about what you are personally doing or what you are personally planning in order to recognize the power of certain kinds of financial instruments, and bitcoin seems to be one of those.

If you believe that there is some kind of government back door or something like that or if you believe some thing else is going on in bitcoin in such a way that we don't really realize what we are giving up or the trade offs, then maybe you can elaborate on some of those ideas. One thing is holding your BTC private keys to yourself and privately and another thing is if you keep your bitcoins on exchanges or held through various third party entities. Guys don't necessarily need to engage in all or nothing behavior in order to have some more tools available to them through holding some bitcoin.
07-18-2019 08:53 PM
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