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The Bitcoin (BTC) thread
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bgbusiness Away
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Post: #8576
RE: The Bitcoin (BTC) thread
Not bad at all, went above 10k and seems like it calmed down a bit now...haha

"Don't let yourself get attached to anything you are not willing to walk out on in 30 seconds flat if you feel the heat around the corner."
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10-26-2019 04:01 AM
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Tail Gunner Offline
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Post: #8577
RE: The Bitcoin (BTC) thread
(10-25-2019 10:35 PM)JayJuanGee Wrote:  
(10-25-2019 09:37 PM)Tail Gunner Wrote:  
(10-25-2019 08:35 PM)JayJuanGee Wrote:  Yesterday, we had a bunch of members (not everyone of course) either bragging about how smart that they were because they were either not buying BTC, they were waiting for lower prices or they were shorting BTC.

How is that waiting working out for you?

This volatility, with such wild price swings, is definitive proof that BC is not stable enough to act as a store of value or as a currency, which was its original purpose.

Bitcoin does not have original purposes that are so narrowly restrictive. Who told you that bitcoin had such original purposes? You have been reading the wrong sources.

So, by reading the original white paper by Satoshi Nakamoto I am reading the wrong sources? Satoshi Nakamoto told us, quite clearly, that BC would act as a currency ("electronic cash") in his original white paper. Obviously, to be useful as a form of electronic cash, its value must be at least somewhat stable.

Quote:A purely peer-to-peer version of electronic cash would allow online payments to be sent directly from one party to another without going through a financial institution.

Satoshi Nakamoto

https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
(This post was last modified: 10-26-2019 11:25 AM by Tail Gunner.)
10-26-2019 11:22 AM
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JayJuanGee Offline
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Post: #8578
RE: The Bitcoin (BTC) thread
(10-26-2019 04:01 AM)bgbusiness Wrote:  Not bad at all, went above 10k and seems like it calmed down a bit now...haha

Yep. It happened very quickly. Geez!!! Apparently, it was the 3rd or 4th greatest one day rise in BTC value, in terms of percentage moves, so yeah it was a BIG deal.

But, what about you personally? Didn't you say that you took out 1/3 of your holdings, which I would find to be a kind of excessive gambling and also a possibility to get r3ckt the fuck when BIG moves like this happen. You may or may not be able to get back in at or below the price that you got out?

I may have stated earlier that I sell small amounts of BTC on the way up and very rarely do I sell on the way down, so before BTC spiked to nearly $20k in late 2017, I had already established my sell plan, which I ended up selling about 12% total of the BTC portfolio value in that move (I had tweaked my sell plan a lot and purposefully decided to sell way less BTC, which could be largely characterized as my decision to value more and more of my wealth in BTC and just not to let my BTC quantity to deteriorate very greatly), and then when the BTC price went down to $3,122 in late 2018, my BTC portfolio was probably around 97% bitcoin, and still trying to keep some BTC allocated fiat in reserve, just in case the BTC price went lower.

So, yeah, your shaving off 1/3 is way too heavy on the gambling side than I would feel comfortable with, especially given how i have already approached my investment and tweaked it to be largely a HOLD and accumulate on the dips strategy.
10-26-2019 12:05 PM
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JayJuanGee Offline
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Post: #8579
RE: The Bitcoin (BTC) thread
(10-26-2019 11:22 AM)Tail Gunner Wrote:  
(10-25-2019 10:35 PM)JayJuanGee Wrote:  
(10-25-2019 09:37 PM)Tail Gunner Wrote:  
(10-25-2019 08:35 PM)JayJuanGee Wrote:  Yesterday, we had a bunch of members (not everyone of course) either bragging about how smart that they were because they were either not buying BTC, they were waiting for lower prices or they were shorting BTC.

How is that waiting working out for you?

This volatility, with such wild price swings, is definitive proof that BC is not stable enough to act as a store of value or as a currency, which was its original purpose.

Bitcoin does not have original purposes that are so narrowly restrictive. Who told you that bitcoin had such original purposes? You have been reading the wrong sources.

So, by reading the original white paper by Satoshi Nakamoto I am reading the wrong sources?

Yep that is correct. Don't get distracted by your seemingly lame attempts at literal interpretation. That was written 12 years ago, and network effects have happened, including various ways that people have chosen to use bitcoin. Of course, there is a decent amount of truth in how bitcoin evolved, but there is a lot of FUD spreading with various attempts to proclaim original intent and to attempt to lock bitcoin into something that it has not yet evolved into. Bitcoin is an evolution process, and for example, you cannot come out of the doors and become a currency out of the gates. You gotta evolve into it, which is what seems to be happening nicely in bitcoin.

(10-26-2019 11:22 AM)Tail Gunner Wrote:  Satoshi Nakamoto told us, quite clearly, that BC would act as a currency ("electronic cash") in his original white paper.

Did Satoshi refer to it as BC, too? Shit I missed that part. Angel

Anyhow, like I said currency is not just established, bitcoin has to network into such usage and NOT all of the ramifications of the bitcoin progress or usage would have been known with precision at the late 2008 publishing of the white paper - even though a whole hell of a lot of the original projections, including a variety of Satoshi's subsequent communications on public forums have been pretty damned accurate. Nonetheless we do not have sorcerers or deities in bitcoin, and that is probably part of the reason why satoshi disappeared and the progression of the project and consensus becomes the rule of the day. If you get caught up on attempts at literal interpretations, you might as well go get caught up on some shitcoin such as bcash ABC or bcash SV because many vocal proponents of those shitcoins (aka bitcoin attack vectors) are frequently whining and spouting out nonsense about bitcoin's supposed various ongoing non-conformities with satoshi's various original intents.... and suggesting that bitcoin is deviating from that blah blah blah...

So if you are going to get into a lot of those kinds of arguments without really attempting to understand how bitcoin is being used and developed currently, then you are going to be getting distracted, employing bullshit nonsense talking points and trying to ascribe your own visions onto bitcoin, which seems to be what you are doing, especially since you simply refuse to even attempt to learn about bitcoin from a personal experience by investing a small portion of your investment capital into it.,., but instead you want to argue about it in the abstract and really want to denigrate it in order to pump your own shiny object bags that are likely going to get subsumed by bitcoin (lunch eaten, no?)

(10-26-2019 11:22 AM)Tail Gunner Wrote:  Obviously, to be useful as a form of electronic cash, its value must be at least somewhat stable.

Fair enough, but how are you going to make it stable? It is in the free market, and people push the price in both directions and battle over the price, so one of the seemingly current most inevitable aspects of bitcoin is that its price is going to remain to be highly volatile, probably at least until it does another 100x price appreciation and even then it might not completely lose volatility, even though I would expect that the more capital that goes into bitcoin the more capital it takes in order to move its price, which ultimately causes it to become increasingly less volatile with the passage of time and the ongoing increase of its market cap - and also increases in liquidity avenues, too.

You likely realize that there is a bit of the wild wild west with bitcoin, and I presume that you have heard of the concept of free markets, right? Well, anyhow, bitcoin is so immature of an asset that it has not had a sufficient amount of time to yet stablize, which still does not mean that guys should not be investing into bitcoin and figuring out ways to profit from it, including its almost inevitable likelihood of ongoing volatility at least 10-20 years into the future.. perhaps on a graduating less and less scale, but I really don't see bitcoin's volatility going away anytime soon.

(10-26-2019 11:22 AM)Tail Gunner Wrote:  
Satoshi Nakamoto Wrote:A purely peer-to-peer version of electronic cash would allow online payments to be sent directly from one party to another without going through a financial institution.

https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf

Yes. I suppose that the NOT going through third parties is the more important aspect of bitcoin rather than what you happen to call it or to suggest that bitcoin should not be volatile during its early adoption phases?
Mr. Satoshi expert (aka tailgunner): Does satoshi say anywhere that bitcoin is not going to be volatile in its earlier stages of adoption? Does satoshi describe a timeline for bitcoin? Of course, there is a mining reward schedule that goes about 130 years into the future, until about 2140, but still, I have seen that he said that some day bitcoin will be worth a lot or nothing, but that does not really say anything about volatility along the way and he even largely predicts that there are going to be a lot of battles (wars) along the way (part of the reason that bitcoin is built to be trustless and also attack vector resilient) and he also largely predicts that there are going to be all kinds of snake-oil salesmen imitations along the way, too, and those kinds of dynamics are largely coming true, even though the details are hardly known how they are going to play out, and how the fuck would he know with any kind of precision in the about two years (between 2008 and 2010) that he was publishing documents and communications?
10-26-2019 12:32 PM
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bgbusiness Away
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Post: #8580
RE: The Bitcoin (BTC) thread
(10-26-2019 12:05 PM)JayJuanGee Wrote:  But, what about you personally? Didn't you say that you took out 1/3 of your holdings, which I would find to be a kind of excessive gambling and also a possibility to get r3ckt the fuck when BIG moves like this happen. You may or may not be able to get back in at or below the price that you got out?

Yeah, my opportunity cost was like 0.25k, but it's okay learning few lessons here and there. Wink

I am not going to take any money out anymore, I honestly thought it would go down to 6k or more and all the charts were pointing towards that bearish direction...

"Don't let yourself get attached to anything you are not willing to walk out on in 30 seconds flat if you feel the heat around the corner."
- Heat

"That's the difference between you and me. You wanna lose small, I wanna win big."
10-26-2019 12:37 PM
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Tail Gunner Offline
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Post: #8581
RE: The Bitcoin (BTC) thread
(10-26-2019 12:32 PM)JayJuanGee Wrote:  Mr. Satoshi expert (aka tailgunner): Does satoshi say anywhere that bitcoin is not going to be volatile in its earlier stages of adoption? Does satoshi describe a timeline for bitcoin? Of course, there is a mining reward schedule that goes about 130 years into the future, until about 2140, but still, I have seen that he said that some day bitcoin will be worth a lot or nothing, but that does not really say anything about volatility along the way and he even largely predicts that there are going to be a lot of battles (wars) along the way (part of the reason that bitcoin is built to be trustless and also attack vector resilient) and he also largely predicts that there are going to be all kinds of snake-oil salesmen imitations along the way, too, and those kinds of dynamics are largely coming true, even though the details are hardly known how they are going to play out, and how the fuck would he know with any kind of precision in the about two years (between 2008 and 2010) that he was publishing documents and communications?

Satoshi explicitly stated that BC would act as a currency ("electronic cash"). A currency demands stability of value, which BC does not have. Thus, BC failed in its primary purpose -- and it failed miserably. Your rantings do not change that simple fact.

OK, so BC became something else. Big deal. A decentralized currency is what the world needed and what Satoshi promised. He failed.
(This post was last modified: 10-26-2019 12:45 PM by Tail Gunner.)
10-26-2019 12:44 PM
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JayJuanGee Offline
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Post: #8582
RE: The Bitcoin (BTC) thread
(10-26-2019 12:37 PM)bgbusiness Wrote:  
(10-26-2019 12:05 PM)JayJuanGee Wrote:  But, what about you personally? Didn't you say that you took out 1/3 of your holdings, which I would find to be a kind of excessive gambling and also a possibility to get r3ckt the fuck when BIG moves like this happen. You may or may not be able to get back in at or below the price that you got out?

Yeah, my opportunity cost was like 0.25k, but it's okay learning few lessons here and there. Wink

I am not going to take any money out anymore, I honestly thought it would go down to 6k or more and all the charts were pointing towards that bearish direction...

Fuck charts.

I thought that I had said that before? Laugh

Anyhow, we all should realize that bitcoin remains in a seemingly ongoing s-curve exponential adoption phase, and even in a bull market (until we find out otherwise, and we might not really find out otherwise until we are way the fuck out of the bull market)....

So, we should always be preparing for UP in these kinds of times, and surely buying BTC on the way down is more than acceptable (and prudent actions), but attempting to buy more (through selling) because you think that BTC's price might go down merely because all the FUDsters are out there spreading nonsense is not likely to end well, especially when BTC's prices had already corrected around 45% in such bull market.... and yeah, we ended up getting 47.5%, but still, you gotta be able to get back in, too, which seems like an impossible endeavor to time, especially if you are playing around and trying to time these kinds of short term BTC price movement matters.

yeah, yeah, yeah. I recall that I was saying similar things about not selling during the 2018 correction and we ended up going down 85%, so yeah there were some folks who had been able to profit by selling on the way down and buying lower, yet I suppose that the main thing is that you personally are attempting to learn more reasonable and prudent BTC HODLing and accumulating strategies from this and manipulators really do enjoy stripping folks out of some or all of their coins or even scaring them into NOT buying when the price is low, and the 42%-ish price rise yesterday seemed to have been one of those slap back into reality moments... and yeah, in the past several hours, we had dropped back down more than 12% from the $10,300 local top (current low in this retracement has been about $9,010).... Current BTC prices bouncing between about $9,100 and $9,140, as I type.
10-26-2019 12:54 PM
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Post: #8583
RE: The Bitcoin (BTC) thread
(10-26-2019 12:44 PM)Tail Gunner Wrote:  
(10-26-2019 12:32 PM)JayJuanGee Wrote:  Mr. Satoshi expert (aka tailgunner): Does satoshi say anywhere that bitcoin is not going to be volatile in its earlier stages of adoption? Does satoshi describe a timeline for bitcoin? Of course, there is a mining reward schedule that goes about 130 years into the future, until about 2140, but still, I have seen that he said that some day bitcoin will be worth a lot or nothing, but that does not really say anything about volatility along the way and he even largely predicts that there are going to be a lot of battles (wars) along the way (part of the reason that bitcoin is built to be trustless and also attack vector resilient) and he also largely predicts that there are going to be all kinds of snake-oil salesmen imitations along the way, too, and those kinds of dynamics are largely coming true, even though the details are hardly known how they are going to play out, and how the fuck would he know with any kind of precision in the about two years (between 2008 and 2010) that he was publishing documents and communications?

Satoshi explicitly stated that BC would act as a currency ("electronic cash"). A currency demands stability of value, which BC does not have. Thus, BC failed in its primary purpose -- and it failed miserably. Your rantings do not change that simple fact.

Well, through my alleged rantings, I think that I sufficiently provided responses to you, so there is no need to repeat myself, and really who the fuck cares what I think anyhow? I am just one random person (not even very smart) with various opinions (sometimes strong or whatever).

The punchline remains that you can come to your own conclusions regarding whether you believe bitcoin has failed or not, or whether it is over as a project or if it is providing some kinds of values that are going to continue to appreciate in value (whether those features happen to be within Satoshi's vision or not).

So, I do agree with you that my rantings don't mean too much and they do not carry too much weight. I was merely attempting to give some context to suggest that your attempt to harp on original vision or to engage in a kind of attribution of what you believe bitcoin to be has a decent amount of both weakness in that approach, but also that it has been beaten to death and even seems to be disproven by actual ongoing bitcoin growth in various network effects that includes looking at adoption, price and other factors, including liquidity avenues, development and increased financialization.


(10-26-2019 12:44 PM)Tail Gunner Wrote:  OK, so BC became something else. Big deal. A decentralized currency is what the world needed and what Satoshi promised. He failed.

I am not really saying that bitcoin became something else, but again who the fuck cares what I am saying?

But I do think that you are way off base in attempting to characterize bitcoin as a failure in any kind of meaningful sense, even when you try to narrow your criticism down to bitcoin supposedly having "too much" volatility or that it cannot be used as a currency, and actual facts on the ground seem to suggest that you are wrong, even on those grounds. Like I already said there are likely expectations of volatility and also expectations that strict currency attributes do not just automatically happen out of the box....

But yeah, let me provide a hypothetical that if you and I met in the alley (no one else), and you gave me 10 brief cases full of verifiable shitty dollars or even verifiable shitty gold or silver, and let's say that we had some kind of way to immediately confirm the spot price value of those assets, and I could immediately send you the equivalent value in bitcoin that would likely confirm fairly quickly, but just to be sure we might want to wait for 6 confirmations (assuming that I had that much), and no one, I repeat no one, could stop us, except perhaps if you had informed the Fed (like a little tattle tale that I suspect that you might be) that we were going to engage in such private transaction. Also, I could travel to some place that I am not supposed to be, let's just say that parts of Venezuela don't like these kinds of value transfers, but you somehow got your shitty dollars, bolivars, gold or silver into Venezuela, and it rises to the level of $10million or more, but I feel some kind of need to buy that crap off of you for whatever reason. I could immediately send you the equivalent value in bitcoins (assuming that I had that much) and no fucking one, at all, could stop me from sending it and you receiving it. Could be confirmed in a matter of minutes, or maybe we might have to wait around for an hour or so for 6 confirmations and to feel more safe.. but usually just one confirmation would provide a high level of confidence that the transaction was NOT reversible.. which might even confirm in 10 minutes or less depending on the then block speed. We could even do it at a secret rendezvoused location on an island or in space.. .hahahahaha... but enough for the seemingly redundant and unnecessary hypotheticals. GayNuts

So, anyhow, in that non-stoppable direct transmission of real world value between you and me, there is a god damned real, material and important usage of bitcoin. AmiNOTrite? That actual use case that I described seems to fall within what Satoshi had originally envisioned as a significantly import purpose that bitcoin is still carrying out with its ongoing development and adoption, too. AmiNOTrite? So I would suggest that the mere fact that you and I can engage in such value transaction as outlined in the hypothetical shows not only that bitcoin has not failed but that it is largely carrying out its original purpose and vision today, in spite of periods of volatility and in spite of maybe not serving as a "currency" in a kind of strict sentiment that you would like to ascribe to it.
(This post was last modified: 10-26-2019 01:29 PM by JayJuanGee.)
10-26-2019 01:18 PM
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Post: #8584
RE: The Bitcoin (BTC) thread
Chinese alt season right now. We need to praise President Xi Jinping for shilling blockchain tech
10-27-2019 11:15 AM
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Post: #8585
RE: The Bitcoin (BTC) thread
(10-23-2019 07:45 PM)[email protected] Wrote:  You guys are talking about something that might happen in 120 years. I don't think anyone but a tiny minority is seriously entertaining the idea the raising the cap.

I put a short in for BTC but held off longing XRP because I was afraid it would drop with BTC and I turned out to be right.

I watched Zuckerberg face off congress and it seems like this caused the dump. I couldn't watch more than 40 minutes of virtue signalling and verbal abuse from congress.

Could be more like 10-15 years depending where the price is, as in that's how much runway we have until the network needs to be supported by transaction fees.
10-27-2019 11:55 AM
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Post: #8586
RE: The Bitcoin (BTC) thread
(10-27-2019 11:55 AM)Pinocchio Wrote:  
(10-23-2019 07:45 PM)[email protected] Wrote:  You guys are talking about something that might happen in 120 years. I don't think anyone but a tiny minority is seriously entertaining the idea the raising the cap.

I put a short in for BTC but held off longing XRP because I was afraid it would drop with BTC and I turned out to be right.

I watched Zuckerberg face off congress and it seems like this caused the dump. I couldn't watch more than 40 minutes of virtue signalling and verbal abuse from congress.

Could be more like 10-15 years depending where the price is, as in that's how much runway we have until the network needs to be supported by transaction fees.

rewards and transaction fees is a rolling incremental phenomenon that is evolving in front of our eyes, so there is not likely to be either doom and gloom outcomes or some kind of dramatic change that are necessarily going to decrease our options or our quality of experiences, rather than incremental changes in what the fees are and various options that are available, whether onchain or at some second or third layer.

It is hard as fuck to speculate 10 to 15 years down the road about what are going to be various trade offs or options available involving BTC network dynamics such as fees, liquidity, transaction times, transaction options, privacy or other features that are currently largely only 10 years old with various features that ONLY just have been added and just beginning to be developed in the past few years.
10-27-2019 02:34 PM
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Post: #8587
RE: The Bitcoin (BTC) thread
https://docsend.com/view/ijd8qrs

Bitcoin reformation...shared by Peter Brandt on Twitter. Thought some of you might enjoy reading.
11-07-2019 09:48 PM
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