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The Bitcoin (BTC) thread
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Isaac Jordan Offline
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Post: #2676
RE: The Bitcoin thread
Australia to sell £8m of seized bitcoins

Quote:A collection of bitcoins worth about £8m, which had been confiscated by police in Australia, will be auctioned off in June.

The 24,518 bitcoins will be sold mostly in blocks of 2,000 - each with a market value of about £680,000.

Ernst & Young, the firm organising the auction, said the bitcoins had been "confiscated as proceeds of crime" but did not elaborate on the case.

One expert said the authorities had chosen a "safe" time to sell.

Australian newspapers have previously reported that 24,500 bitcoins were seized by police in the state of Victoria in 2013, after a man was arrested for dealing illegal drugs online.

In 2015, Victoria's Asset Confiscation Operations department "confirmed it had recently taken possession of 24,500 coins and would try to make the most of it", according to the Sydney Morning Herald.


"This is a significant amount of Bitcoin," Dr Garrick Hileman, economic historian at the Cambridge Centre for Alternative Finance, told the BBC. "It's about a week's worth of new Bitcoin that comes onto the market through mining."

Currently about 4,000 new bitcoins are generated a day, as a reward for "miners" who offer their computer power to process Bitcoin transactions.

The seized coins are auctioned in blocks because quickly selling a large number of coins for cash at a Bitcoin exchange could negatively affect the market.

"Generally the view is that any time 10,000 bitcoins sell, the market price can be moved significantly," said Dr Hileman.

The price of Bitcoin rose to $530 (£362) on Friday, its highest level since August 2014.

Dr Hileman said the Australian authorities had chosen a "safe" time to sell because there is some uncertainty about what will happen to the value of Bitcoin in July.

"The Bitcoin protocol is designed to reduce the number of new bitcoins miners are given as a reward for processing transactions every four years.

"The reward will be halved on 14 July, so prices could go up due to the reduced supply of new bitcoins.

"But there is a question about whether security could decline, if rewards for miners are reduced significantly. So it's a safe time to sell, as there is no guarantee about what might happen in July."

The Australian Bitcoin auction, which will be open to bidders worldwide, is the first such sale outside of the US.

In 2014, the US Marshals Service began auctioning a collection of about 175,000 bitcoins that had been confiscated from the founder of internet marketplace Silk Road.

The final auction of those bitcoins attracted 11 bidders, possibly due to the high cost of each block on sale.

Dr Hileman said the sale of Bitcoin by the Australian authorities was an acknowledgement that the cryptocurrency was not illegal.

"Any time a government sells Bitcoin, it is acknowledging that this is a different asset to drugs, for example, that would not be sold in an auction," he told the BBC.

"That was one of the big takeaways from the US Marshal Service auction - they set a precedent that Bitcoin was not illegal.

"Australia has been going through its own regulatory process - and this makes a standing that Bitcoin is legal to use in Australia."
(This post was last modified: 05-31-2016 07:40 PM by Isaac Jordan.)
05-31-2016 07:40 PM
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Post: #2677
RE: The Bitcoin thread
It seems pretty likely that the Australian government is going to do well with this auction of bitcoins, and surely, as the article asserts, it seems safer for them to put their large number of coins up for auction during an apparent BTC bull run (which if you recall seemed to have been the case in late October / early November 2015 when the US government auctioned off the final batch of the confiscated silk road coins).
05-31-2016 09:39 PM
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booshala Offline
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Post: #2678
RE: The Bitcoin thread
I'm curious to know what the logistics were in the seized bitcoins in Australia. Don't criminals specifically use bitcoin because it's hard to trace and confiscate? What's the point in using it if governments can just get their hands on it instead of cash?
06-01-2016 07:20 PM
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Peregrine Offline
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Post: #2679
RE: The Bitcoin thread
(06-01-2016 07:20 PM)booshala Wrote:  I'm curious to know what the logistics were in the seized bitcoins in Australia. Don't criminals specifically use bitcoin because it's hard to trace and confiscate? What's the point in using it if governments can just get their hands on it instead of cash?

I'm assuming that the criminals were caught using other means and then either the bitcoins were seized during a raid or the criminal was incentivized to turn them over.
06-01-2016 07:29 PM
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JayJuanGee Offline
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Post: #2680
RE: The Bitcoin thread
(06-01-2016 07:29 PM)Peregrine Wrote:  
(06-01-2016 07:20 PM)booshala Wrote:  I'm curious to know what the logistics were in the seized bitcoins in Australia. Don't criminals specifically use bitcoin because it's hard to trace and confiscate? What's the point in using it if governments can just get their hands on it instead of cash?

I'm assuming that the criminals were caught using other means and then either the bitcoins were seized during a raid or the criminal was incentivized to turn them over.



Also, just to add a bit. I am no computer expert, and I don't really claim to understand the specifics of a lot of cases involving seized bitcoins.

Nonetheless, my understanding is that the "anonymity" selling point of bitcoin has frequently been oversold, especially in the first several years of bitcoin's existence. In the last couple of years, folks in the bitcoin space have become more aware about anonymity limitations, especially when it comes to the potential employment of governmental investigatory resources once a person ( or a transaction) has become an investigatory target.

In this regard, it remains difficult to be completely anonymous when a lot of transactions are on a public ledger and can be traced, especially at various exit points or even once one or two addresses are identified in one or more transactions, then authorities may be able to trace a person with a bitcoin address.

Bitcoin still has a lot of value, even if the anonymity matter had been overhyped, and there still seem to be ways that bitcoin can be used in various anonymous ways, but if your goal is to be anonymous by engaging in some kind of widespread illegal activity, then there are likely ways to trace you unless you do happen to have a real high degree of computer knowledge.


So yeah, like Peregrine indicated, there were likely some basic mistakes made along the way that caused the linking of coins and persons.

Also, if you want to engage in some illegal activities, there may either be better coins to use.. or possible ways to use cash in some of the more illegal parts, to the extent that you want to attempt to evade authorities in your illegal or arguably illegal activities.. not that I am advocating anyone to engage in illegal activities, yet frequently a lot of us guys recognize that there are situations in which illegality is arguable and construed rather than clear... and the government may still be successful in confiscating the bitcoins, which seems to have been the case with the confiscation of silk road coins that involved Ross Ulbricht.
06-01-2016 07:46 PM
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booshala Offline
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Post: #2681
RE: The Bitcoin thread
Thanks for the input Peregrine and JJG. I don't really follow the intricacies of Bitcoin or Ethereum, now that I've just bought a little as a lotto ticket and also to try and spur my interest in cryptocurrency. What you're both saying makes sense.
(This post was last modified: 06-01-2016 08:04 PM by booshala.)
06-01-2016 07:54 PM
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JayJuanGee Offline
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Post: #2682
RE: The Bitcoin thread
(06-01-2016 07:54 PM)booshala Wrote:  Thanks for the input Peregrine and JJG. I don't really follow the intricacies of Bitcoin or Ethereum, now that I've just bought a little as a lotto ticket and also to try and spur my interest in cryptocurrency. What you're both saying makes sense.


My views are likely overrepresented in this thread regarding bitcoin, and it is a bitcoin thread and I have been bullish on bitcoin for years.. but contrary to some characterizations of my position, I don't think that I have been unreasonable about bitcoin, merely that the price got manipulated quite low for a considerable amount of time between its November 2013 all time high until about August 2015, when the upward battle began and really we had sort of moved into a bitcoin bullish mode.

I don't recommend ETH. I have made a few recent posts about ETH being significantly centralized and significantly pumped and over hyped, including in this thread and my kind of argument with Satoshi (https://www.rooshvforum.com/thread-21537...pid1306480)
Sure the price of ETH could still go up from its current price point, but there is a lot of misinformation out there regarding ETH and really not strong fundamentals as a lot of people like to suggest and false comparisons to BTC as if ETH were Bitcoin 2.0 when it is really not currently adding a lot of value beyond a lot of hype that could still have some more pump in it before it gets dumped, but yeah if you read up on ETH and study it, you may find it tolerable for your own views. Nonetheless, the downside risk of ETH seems a hell-of-a-lot greater than BTC. I have not bought any ETH, but I could understand how some folks may want to hedge some of their bet with ETH, but I would not dedicate any more than 10% (and that could be too much) of my crypto investments towards ETH as compared with 90% towards BTC.

Nonetheless, regarding bitcoin, if you are just getting started, probably some kind of initial investment and dollar cost averaging would be good.


You gotta consider your initial budget regarding how much you want to initially invest and then also how much to allocate towards dollar cost averaging or some other kind of approach towards getting some skin in the game.

Isaac Jordan and I had some of this kind of discussion a few pages back, but he was getting started in the upper $300s and lower $400s, and as far as I know he is still dollar cost averaging..

Here's Isaac's initial post regarding his considering how to get in, and then we had several discussions thereafter in the thread.

https://www.rooshvforum.com/thread-21537...pid1175314



Here's the beginning of a follow up series of posts between Isaac and me.

https://www.rooshvforum.com/thread-21537...pid1266067




Maybe he can update us regarding his current strategies? I know sometimes there can be a bit of adjustment to plans based on significant price appreciations, yet my understanding of his plan is that he was investing and then planning to hold for the longer terms without selling, even though I recommend a more interactive strategy (but, ultimately, to each his own).
(This post was last modified: 06-02-2016 02:03 AM by JayJuanGee.)
06-02-2016 02:00 AM
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Isaac Jordan Offline
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Post: #2683
RE: The Bitcoin thread
(06-02-2016 02:00 AM)JayJuanGee Wrote:  Maybe he can update us regarding his current strategies?

Back in January I compared Bitcoin's progress thus far to the Gartner Hype Cycle's estimated trajectory of a new technology:

[Image: 320px-Gartner_Hype_Cycle.svg.png]

Here's BTC as of June 2, 2016:

[Image: bitcoin.gif]

As you can see, BTC seems to be pulling out of its trough and emerging into the "Slope of Enlightenment". Unlike the modest improvement shown in the graph, I expect Bitcoin to go much, much higher-and more importantly, not drop down to "trough" levels ever again.

So while I initially planned to dollar-cost-average my way in, after the Hearn letter sent prices tumbling ~10% in February I opportunistically bought a few coins, then a few more once I saw the price go back up over the next few weeks. All told, I was able to hit my goal of X number of coins at just over $400/coin. Using the Hype Cycle as a predictive tool seems to have been a wise choice, given the 20% jump we've just seen this past week.

My plan now is to simply hold these for the long term. When I discovered Bitcoin back in January, I devoured several books on the subject and became very interested in its day-to-day movements. But now that I've reached my investment goal, and don't plan on doing much else with the coins until they hit the five-figure mark, I'll likely move onto the next campaign, as Roosh likes to call them.

That's not to say I won't still be keeping up on the news and following this thread, though. Keep the contributions coming JJG!
06-02-2016 11:18 AM
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Post: #2684
RE: The Bitcoin thread
(06-02-2016 11:18 AM)Isaac Jordan Wrote:  
(06-02-2016 02:00 AM)JayJuanGee Wrote:  Maybe he can update us regarding his current strategies?

Back in January I compared Bitcoin's progress thus far to the Gartner Hype Cycle's estimated trajectory of a new technology:

[Image: 320px-Gartner_Hype_Cycle.svg.png]

Here's BTC as of June 2, 2016:

[Image: bitcoin.gif]

As you can see, BTC seems to be pulling out of its trough and emerging into the "Slope of Enlightenment". Unlike the modest improvement shown in the graph, I expect Bitcoin to go much, much higher-and more importantly, not drop down to "trough" levels ever again.

I think that it is very valuable to read a variety of perspectives regarding bitcoin, and it simply remains an innovation that has potential to touch upon and likely alter practices in many areas of our lives (directly and behind the scenes).

I do believe that the above graph is helpful, and your assessment of the graph is interesting regarding your perspective.

I'm not sure how to characterize your perspective differently from mine because when you are suggesting that bitcoin's prices could go to 5 digits, you are similarly bullish as me, regarding the long term.

On the other hand, the above graph seems to have some deficiencies in respect to bitcoin. In that regard, I am of the opinion that bitcoin has not even come close to experiencing a peak of expectations. Accordingly, we are still in very early stages of bitcoin with less than .001% of the world involved in any way regarding bitcoin and so long as bitcoin does not fail and/or get manipulated downward into oblivion, we are likely to experience several more bubbles and several more hype periods... so to any extent that we may want to rely on such above depicted graph, it is likely depicting one of several peak cycles in bitcoin's history (bitcoin has had about 5 of these so far) and the future of bitcoin. Though, of course, nothing is certain in bitcoinlandia.






(06-02-2016 11:18 AM)Isaac Jordan Wrote:  So while I initially planned to dollar-cost-average my way in, after the Hearn letter sent prices tumbling ~10% in February I opportunistically bought a few coins, then a few more once I saw the price go back up over the next few weeks. All told, I was able to hit my goal of X number of coins at just over $400/coin. Using the Hype Cycle as a predictive tool seems to have been a wise choice, given the 20% jump we've just seen this past week.

Yes. It doesn't hurt to change your BTC investment plan, especially when you had been presented with what had seemed to have been an opportunity to jump in bigger than originally planned... and of course there is some luck involved regarding BTC's market direction... because we can never know for sure - while bitcoin's market cap remains relatively small (at a bit over $8 billion as I type), we need to experience close to a 100x increase in market cap in order to significantly be relieved of some of the relatively easy price manipulation potentials.


(06-02-2016 11:18 AM)Isaac Jordan Wrote:  My plan now is to simply hold these for the long term. When I discovered Bitcoin back in January, I devoured several books on the subject and became very interested in its day-to-day movements. But now that I've reached my investment goal, and don't plan on doing much else with the coins until they hit the five-figure mark, I'll likely move onto the next campaign, as Roosh likes to call them.

Yeah, I believe that we have already discussed this kind of strategy, and it is not an uncommon strategy for people to invest long term and kind of forget about it... at least don't get caught up with the up and down volatility.

I differ somewhat from this perspective, and accordingly, I believe that there will be times in which guys need to remove some profits from the table because it clearly seems apparent that the price direction is going to reverse.

Additionally, there may be times that it would be clearly prudent to invest some more, after a continuous downturn in the market and it clearly appears that upward price movement is going to take place.

I think that my most solid recommendation to anyone who has taken Isaac's approach would be minimally to adjust by continuing to dollar cost average, because it could really pay off in the long run.

I cannot recall exactly how many coins that you bought Isaac, but for practical purposes, let's say, for example that you had bought 10BTC (that would have been about a $4,000 investment at $400 each).


Even though you believe that you are set, I believe that it would be good to continue to dollar cost average, whether that is $10 a week or $10 a month or $10 a quarter... or some other amount that is reasonable to your ongoing cashflow.. ... this periodic continued investment causes you to stay involved and to continue to support your investment... and it may also trigger you at some point to reassess, whether your initial investment plan still suits you, whether that is 5 years later, 20 years later or at some other time period down the road in which your circumstances may have changed.

Nonetheless, I understand Isaac's description of his plan.. as being a very decent tentative plan that also allows a person to pursue other hobbies and interests without getting tied too much into details of (or stressed about) BTC price performance and price movements.


(06-02-2016 11:18 AM)Isaac Jordan Wrote:  That's not to say I won't still be keeping up on the news and following this thread, though. Keep the contributions coming JJG!

I remain a bit baffled why more RVF guys do not participate in this thread, because BTC seems to be a very decent vehicle for international traveling, which seems to be what a lot of RVF guys do or aspire to do in the future, and I think that international travel was one of the reasons why bitcoin struck me so strongly as being a very decent vehicle for my own future preparations in that direction.... even though currently, I am a bit more geographically tied down than I had expected that I would be. Go figure.. and hopefully, merely a temporary situation for me.
06-02-2016 01:18 PM
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Post: #2685
RE: The Bitcoin thread
A couple of days ago, I came across this article regarding bitcoin's price changes as compared with gold, and it seems to a decent thought provoking read.. even if it is a quick / temporary snapshot of recent price movements.


http://cointelegraph.com/news/gold-plumm...skyrockets
06-02-2016 01:25 PM
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Isaac Jordan Offline
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Post: #2686
RE: The Bitcoin thread
Not sure if this has been posted before, but here's a nifty site where you can watch Bitcoin transactions (blocks and purchases) occurring in real time:

http://bitbonkers.com/
(This post was last modified: 06-02-2016 05:27 PM by Isaac Jordan.)
06-02-2016 05:16 PM
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Post: #2687
RE: The Bitcoin thread
If you look at crypto as purely an alternative asset, like gold, then sure ETH hasn't proved itself compared to BTC. If you view crypto as a different and revolutionary way to commercialize transactions and disrupt, then ETH is light years ahead of BTC.

Depends on your perceptions and needs. My 2 cents.
06-02-2016 05:32 PM
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Post: #2688
RE: The Bitcoin thread
(06-02-2016 05:16 PM)Isaac Jordan Wrote:  Not sure if this has been posted before, but here's a nifty site where you can watch Bitcoin transactions (blocks and purchases) occurring in real time:

http://bitbonkers.com/


That one had not been shared on this thread.

Quite visual and hypnotic...
06-02-2016 08:36 PM
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Post: #2689
RE: The Bitcoin thread
(06-02-2016 05:32 PM)jj90 Wrote:  If you look at crypto as purely an alternative asset, like gold, then sure ETH hasn't proved itself compared to BTC. If you view crypto as a different and revolutionary way to commercialize transactions and disrupt, then ETH is light years ahead of BTC.

Depends on your perceptions and needs. My 2 cents.

Yeah, it's all fine and dandy in theory, yet since you are bringing up such a subject and attempting to make some kind of BTC/ETH comparison, let us know about your investments specifically.

Are you investing in either BTC or ETH, and if so, in approximately what proportions?

What is your investment strategy, or are you merely talking in theory, without actually taking a stake in either one. Also, do you have other cryptocurrency investments or other kinds of non-crypto investment to hedge your bets?

Your home country is listed as canada, so does that mean you have a incoming cash flow in canadian dollars or some other currency, or none?
06-02-2016 08:40 PM
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Post: #2690
RE: The Bitcoin thread
(06-02-2016 05:32 PM)jj90 Wrote:  If you look at crypto as purely an alternative asset, like gold, then sure ETH hasn't proved itself compared to BTC. If you view crypto as a different and revolutionary way to commercialize transactions and disrupt, then ETH is light years ahead of BTC.

Depends on your perceptions and needs. My 2 cents.

Yap, I agree with you. This is a bad place to try to have debate though, unfortunately. You'll just end up with a big f.ing wall of text in your face.
06-02-2016 09:31 PM
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Post: #2691
RE: The Bitcoin thread
(06-02-2016 08:40 PM)JayJuanGee Wrote:  Yeah, it's all fine and dandy in theory, yet since you are bringing up such a subject and attempting to make some kind of BTC/ETH comparison, let us know about your investments specifically.

Are you investing in either BTC or ETH, and if so, in approximately what proportions?

What is your investment strategy, or are you merely talking in theory, without actually taking a stake in either one. Also, do you have other cryptocurrency investments or other kinds of non-crypto investment to hedge your bets?

Your home country is listed as canada, so does that mean you have a incoming cash flow in canadian dollars or some other currency, or none?
Frankly, I could care less for crypto as an investment. I'm more interested in the technical applications for crypto. With that said, I'm in the process of acquiring 4 digits in ETH. I think ETH has got another run in it. I also believe any crypto that isn't adding value(ETH) or has a 1st mover advantage(BTC) is dead in the long run

I have other non crypto investments, I also post in the stock market thread. I have incoming cash flow in CAD, but I fail to see how that's relevant to this conversation?
(This post was last modified: 06-03-2016 01:10 AM by jj90.)
06-03-2016 01:08 AM
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Post: #2692
RE: The Bitcoin thread
(06-03-2016 01:08 AM)jj90 Wrote:  
(06-02-2016 08:40 PM)JayJuanGee Wrote:  Yeah, it's all fine and dandy in theory, yet since you are bringing up such a subject and attempting to make some kind of BTC/ETH comparison, let us know about your investments specifically.

Are you investing in either BTC or ETH, and if so, in approximately what proportions?

What is your investment strategy, or are you merely talking in theory, without actually taking a stake in either one. Also, do you have other cryptocurrency investments or other kinds of non-crypto investment to hedge your bets?

Your home country is listed as canada, so does that mean you have a incoming cash flow in canadian dollars or some other currency, or none?

Frankly, I could care less for crypto as an investment. I'm more interested in the technical applications for crypto. With that said, I'm in the process of acquiring 4 digits in ETH. I think ETH has got another run in it.

Well, I was attempting to suss out some kind of connection with your previous post and the subject matter of this thread. If you are merely talking about BTC from a technical and/or fundamentals perspective that is fine, but your previous post did not really assert too much about BTC except making fairly superficial suggestions that somehow ETH is superior to BTC. There is nothing wrong with having that kind of perspective so long as you can explain what you mean, especially when this thread is intended for BTC as a topic, and not all matters crypto, but certainly there are arguments that can be made to discuss ETH and/or other alternative cryptos and their relationship to BTC and to still be somewhat within the topic of the thread.



(06-03-2016 01:08 AM)jj90 Wrote:  I also believe any crypto that isn't adding value(ETH) or has a 1st mover advantage(BTC) is dead in the long run

I find this a bit unclear what you are asserting here. Surely ETH adds value, but that does not necessarily mean that its current market price is reflective of its actual value... even though there can also be some value in getting your crypto pumped, which currently seems to be happening with ETH... yet again, this thread is not about ETH, so it would be helpful to attempt to tailor any discussion of ETH in terms of what kind of light it sheds about BTC or how ETH may be related to BTC, whether the discussion is about technical innovation matters or about market share dynamics.


(06-03-2016 01:08 AM)jj90 Wrote:  I have other non crypto investments, I also post in the stock market thread.

I think that I am understanding that you do not have any crypto investments at all, and you don't really have any intention to invest in any cryptos. Is that an incorrect understanding?





(06-03-2016 01:08 AM)jj90 Wrote:  I have incoming cash flow in CAD, but I fail to see how that's relevant to this conversation?

Well, I suppose that the question regarding your cashflow is only relevant to the extent that you may be considering investing in BTC or some related crypto currency, and you believe that your investment decisions or discussion bear upon whether guys should consider putting their money into BTC, some other crypto currency or some other investment.

I mean in some sense, would we want to make the contents of our posts relevant to various considerations that RVF guys might be making in respect to bitcoin on non-bitcoin investments... or giving you the benefit of the doubt more abstract questions or concerns regarding technical aspects of bitcoin as compared with other crypto currencies or investments?

For example, in my case, I began investing in bitcoin in November 2013, and part of my consideration was to be able to diversify my financials somewhat out of the dollar. For a large majority of my life, I have had an incoming dollar cash flow, and accordingly, before I started investing in bitcoin, a very large majority of my investments were somewhat contingent upon the dollar (or the future performance of the dollar). So in that regard, one of my motivations regarding bitcoin was to hedge some of my dollar investments, and I recall that my initial goal was to attempt to invest up to 10% of my total quasi-liquid funds into bitcoin in order to hedge somewhat against my various dollar investments... which involves a large number of personal assessments regarding those various investments.
06-03-2016 02:04 AM
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Post: #2693
RE: The Bitcoin thread
(06-02-2016 09:31 PM)Satoshi Wrote:  
(06-02-2016 05:32 PM)jj90 Wrote:  If you look at crypto as purely an alternative asset, like gold, then sure ETH hasn't proved itself compared to BTC. If you view crypto as a different and revolutionary way to commercialize transactions and disrupt, then ETH is light years ahead of BTC.

Depends on your perceptions and needs. My 2 cents.

Yap, I agree with you. This is a bad place to try to have debate though, unfortunately. You'll just end up with a big f.ing wall of text in your face.

So was there some kind of contribution that you were intending to make to this thread, or were you merely just attempting to shit on this thread, add non-substantive and/or distracting content while at the same time attempting to discourage other RVF members from contributing to this thread.

By the way, we have had this discussion several times regarding what is relevant and what is not relevant to this thread, so you seem to be attempting to beat a dead horse, but to do so out of context and without providing any solid evidence or argument to back up your points, to the extent you have any constructive points, and nonetheless, you have not really been stopped from providing your various points of view in this thread, even when you have frequently deviated fairly far from the topic of this thread and have also tended to become very negative about bitcoin, without providing much of any facts or logic for your disgruntled state of being in respects to bitcoin.

Furthermore, I will admit that I have been fairly critical of you when you seem to go on and on either to attempt to provide non-relevant topics or to be critical and negative about bitcoin without providing sufficient evidence and/or logic to back up your opinions... Furthermore, I will admit that I have been fairly critical of you when you seem to have been attempting to shift the burden on me or some other guy in this thread regarding some negative point(s) that you are attempting to make about bitcoin.

If you have some substantive discussion regarding matters related to bitcoin, then please make such discussions, but it does not seem to be appropriate to attempt to discourage other guys from posting in this thread who may be interested in discussing bitcoin related topics.


By the way, bitcoin seems to be in a very good position in the past few weeks and this week for sure (and this past weekend) in terms of its current price arena. Surely, we could experience a 10% or a 20% downward price correction, but generally speaking the odds seem favorable that bitcoin is experiencing decent upwards price pressures at the moment.. so seems to be a good time to be holding some bitcoins, and even a better time, if a guy had either gotten into bitcoins in the $200s, $300s or $400s, and yeah, of course there are some other variations of good things, too, but no doubt price performance matters have been fairly decent for bitcoin since August 2015 to have experienced more than 100% price appreciation,

And surely if some RVF guys have experienced some price appreciations in his BTC holdings, he may chose to consider reallocating some aspects of his BTC investment - even though, such reallocation is not absolutely necessary at this point, especially if guys consider that BTC prices have decent chances of experiencing additional exponential growth from this current price point, and yep, I have been making some of those kinds of reallocation considerations for myself to the extent any guys want to genuinely discuss that aspect of such a bitcoin related topic?
06-03-2016 02:25 AM
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jj90 Offline
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Post: #2694
RE: The Bitcoin thread
(06-03-2016 02:04 AM)JayJuanGee Wrote:  Well, I was attempting to suss out some kind of connection with your previous post and the subject matter of this thread. If you are merely talking about BTC from a technical and/or fundamentals perspective that is fine, but your previous post did not really assert too much about BTC except making fairly superficial suggestions that somehow ETH is superior to BTC. There is nothing wrong with having that kind of perspective so long as you can explain what you mean, especially when this thread is intended for BTC as a topic, and not all matters crypto, but certainly there are arguments that can be made to discuss ETH and/or other alternative cryptos and their relationship to BTC and to still be somewhat within the topic of the thread.
I'll reiterate this since this is the BTC thread, BTC has 1st mover advantage, when people want to buy crypto, they think BTC, not LTC/ETH/Dogecoin etc.

(06-03-2016 02:04 AM)JayJuanGee Wrote:  I find this a bit unclear what you are asserting here. Surely ETH adds value, but that does not necessarily mean that its current market price is reflective of its actual value... even though there can also be some value in getting your crypto pumped, which currently seems to be happening with ETH... yet again, this thread is not about ETH, so it would be helpful to attempt to tailor any discussion of ETH in terms of what kind of light it sheds about BTC or how ETH may be related to BTC, whether the discussion is about technical innovation matters or about market share dynamics.
ETH is adding value above and beyond just being a crypto because you can do things with the Ethereum network that currently isn't possible/feasible with the Bitcoin network. Google Ethereum smart contracts.

(06-03-2016 02:04 AM)JayJuanGee Wrote:  I think that I am understanding that you do not have any crypto investments at all, and you don't really have any intention to invest in any cryptos. Is that an incorrect understanding?
Other then the stake I'm taking in ETH, no.


(06-03-2016 02:04 AM)JayJuanGee Wrote:  Well, I suppose that the question regarding your cashflow is only relevant to the extent that you may be considering investing in BTC or some related crypto currency, and you believe that your investment decisions or discussion bear upon whether guys should consider putting their money into BTC, some other crypto currency or some other investment.

I mean in some sense, would we want to make the contents of our posts relevant to various considerations that RVF guys might be making in respect to bitcoin on non-bitcoin investments... or giving you the benefit of the doubt more abstract questions or concerns regarding technical aspects of bitcoin as compared with other crypto currencies or investments?

For example, in my case, I began investing in bitcoin in November 2013, and part of my consideration was to be able to diversify my financials somewhat out of the dollar. For a large majority of my life, I have had an incoming dollar cash flow, and accordingly, before I started investing in bitcoin, a very large majority of my investments were somewhat contingent upon the dollar (or the future performance of the dollar). So in that regard, one of my motivations regarding bitcoin was to hedge some of my dollar investments, and I recall that my initial goal was to attempt to invest up to 10% of my total quasi-liquid funds into bitcoin in order to hedge somewhat against my various dollar investments... which involves a large number of personal assessments regarding those various investments.
Now that your point is clear, I have no current intention to use crypto to hedge out fiat risk. I have other ways/assets to do so. If someone wishes to use crypto to diversify their asset base, more power to them. Not my cup of tea.
(This post was last modified: 06-03-2016 01:28 PM by jj90.)
06-03-2016 01:25 PM
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Satoshi Offline
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Post: #2695
RE: The Bitcoin thread
(06-03-2016 02:25 AM)JayJuanGee Wrote:  ..............

Honestly, tl;dr.

(06-03-2016 01:08 AM)jj90 Wrote:  Frankly, I could care less for crypto as an investment. I'm more interested in the technical applications for crypto. With that said, I'm in the process of acquiring 4 digits in ETH. I think ETH has got another run in it. I also believe any crypto that isn't adding value(ETH) or has a 1st mover advantage(BTC) is dead in the long run

I have other non crypto investments, I also post in the stock market thread. I have incoming cash flow in CAD, but I fail to see how that's relevant to this conversation?

Do you have any input in the DAO token? I've been meaning to read up on it but didn't take the time.
06-03-2016 02:48 PM
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Post: #2696
RE: The Bitcoin thread
(06-03-2016 01:25 PM)jj90 Wrote:  I'll reiterate this since this is the BTC thread, BTC has 1st mover advantage, when people want to buy crypto, they think BTC, not LTC/ETH/Dogecoin etc.

There is some truth to your statement, regarding first mover advantage, but these kinds of statements frequently undervalue the power of such first mover advantage and even sometimes imply that being the first mover is unfair to the rest of the cryptos.

I don't really have any argument with you on this point, but I think that while your statement is true, it really implies a kind of underestimation of the innovation that has been brought to the space by bitcoin and the various developments around it.

It is not only important that bitcoin was the first to solve the cryptocurrency double spend problem, it has also inspired a whole hell-of-a lot of development on top of its infrastructure in spite of various sabatoge attempts and in spite of attempts to compete with it.

And, yeah frequently a lot of the others are not necessarily adding value, but sometimes can be an innovative space as well and to be absorbed into bitcoin.





(06-03-2016 01:25 PM)jj90 Wrote:  ETH is adding value above and beyond just being a crypto because you can do things with the Ethereum network that currently isn't possible/feasible with the Bitcoin network. Google Ethereum smart contracts.

I do not disagree with your assertion that Ethereum is likely adding some value to the space, but it remains fairly likely that such value is being overstated in terms of pumping efforts.

Through Rootstock, segwit, and likely other future innovations etc, Bitcoin is going to be capable of absorb a large amount of Ethereum's added value, and to be able to accomplish such on its secure network, which could likely relegate Ethereum to a kind of side chain status of bitcoin.. doesn't mean that there is not a lot of potential value to ethereum, but it is a bit pretentious for ETH marketers to be suggesting that ETH could be taking over bitcoin any time soon... that is almost laughable and really a kind of pump propaganda for a kind of vapor ware (I mean it all sounds wonderful in theory, but put some of those pie in the sky ideas to practice and monetize them and get a DAO to actually work without people stealing the funds and screwing up the directions of the projects).

In other words, Ethereum is not really in a decent position to actually take over for BTC in terms of securing value in a decentralized kind of way because it remains fairly centralized with a lot of unknowns in terms of number of coins, whether and when it will shift over from proof of work to proof of stake, and other manipulation matters that come from having various fundamentals controlled by "efficient" committees - which are all considerably problematic for ETH's future manipulation by small number of persons, which is not any where near the same as what is going on with bitcoin's decentralized governance that makes it very difficult to make controversial changes to fundamental aspects (which for bitcoin this difficulty in changing a not broken secure value system is a feature of bitcoin, and is not a bug as many naysayer anti-bitcoin propagandists attempt to assert)



(06-03-2016 01:25 PM)jj90 Wrote:  
(06-03-2016 02:04 AM)JayJuanGee Wrote:  I think that I am understanding that you do not have any crypto investments at all, and you don't really have any intention to invest in any cryptos. Is that an incorrect understanding?
Other then the stake I'm taking in ETH, no.

Well, that may kind of demonstrate your inclined leanings towards ETH and your coming into this bitcoin thread in order to attempt to justify your choice to invest in ETH and to let us know about your possible subconscious thinking regarding your superior choice in ETH (again a talking point that may well not materialize when push comes to shove in the real world besides various ongoing ETH pumping efforts).



(06-03-2016 01:25 PM)jj90 Wrote:  Now that your point is clear, I have no current intention to use crypto to hedge out fiat risk. I have other ways/assets to do so. If someone wishes to use crypto to diversify their asset base, more power to them. Not my cup of tea.

I think that you are making a very good point here in that each of us are going to chose how to allocate our risks based on our own personal circumstances, timeline, views about various assets and maybe even including some of our world views. The reasons are going to vary from guy to guy, and the investment vehicles are going to vary to the extent that the guy is able to allocate his investment plan with his personal circumstances (which in itself could take years of practice, including rethinking from time to time and reallocation from time to time).

I had considered bitcoin to be valuable for a lot of reasons, and hedging in respect to the dollar was one of the reasons.

Portability was also a very important reason for me to begin to stock up on bitcoins and to get used to its various systems and useages, because in November 2013, when I began to look into various bitcoin attributes, I was engaging in considerable preparations and planning for international travel on an ongoing basis. Some of my plans for international travel have been delayed due to some personal business circumstances that I am going to need to work out in the coming years, and hopefully, I am going to be able to get back into a kind of international traveling planning stage.. in which bitcoin will again resume with that kind of potential decent portability use.
06-03-2016 03:11 PM
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Post: #2697
RE: The Bitcoin thread
(06-03-2016 02:48 PM)Satoshi Wrote:  
(06-03-2016 02:25 AM)JayJuanGee Wrote:  ..............

Honestly, tl;dr.

Yes. That failure/refusal to read/understand has been one of your interaction problems in this thread, especially in recent times when you have coming in this thread in order to discuss quasi-irrelevant matters, and attempting to make them relevant,when you are merely on an anti-bitcoin kick, but not really willing or able to back up your points, to the extent that you may have any relevant points.
06-03-2016 03:20 PM
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Post: #2698
RE: The Bitcoin thread
The below article discusses the various attributes of bitcoin and considering bitcoin as a new kind of asset class, which seems logical and likely a topic of future discussions that even moves into mainstream financial discussions.

http://www.coindesk.com/coinbase-ark-inv...set-class/
06-03-2016 03:29 PM
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jj90 Offline
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Post: #2699
RE: The Bitcoin thread
(06-03-2016 02:48 PM)Satoshi Wrote:  Do you have any input in the DAO token? I've been meaning to read up on it but didn't take the time.

If you think of the DAO as say a company whose objective is to allocate resources among other projects in the crypto/Ethereum space, your share of tokens is essentially your stake in that company.
06-04-2016 02:31 PM
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jj90 Offline
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RE: The Bitcoin thread
(06-03-2016 02:04 AM)JayJuanGee Wrote:  Well, that may kind of demonstrate your inclined leanings towards ETH and your coming into this bitcoin thread in order to attempt to justify your choice to invest in ETH and to let us know about your possible subconscious thinking regarding your superior choice in ETH (again a talking point that may well not materialize when push comes to shove in the real world besides various ongoing ETH pumping efforts).
While I commend you on your lateral thinking about sub consciousness, you are reading far too much into this. Sometimes a spoon is just a spoon.

Also, while I appreciate an articulate and thought out response, FYI you borderline on verbose far too often. You wonder why more RVF'ers don't participate in this thread? Because Satoshi is right: TL;DR.

A good businessman/content marketer knows how to make their content consumable. Reading an essay on a $5 price fluctuation in BTC is unnecessary. Hope you can take some constructive feedback from this.
06-04-2016 02:39 PM
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