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The Bitcoin (BTC) thread
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Generation21stCentury Offline
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Post: #501
RE: Bitcoins up 60% in less than a month
(12-01-2013 04:37 PM)Maciano Wrote:  "What is the point of a currency that people just hoard instead of use for purchases?"

They don't. That's what journos say & they're wrong. Thanks to blockchain.info you can check for yourself, the amount of users & transactions increases exponentially.

Also, while bitcoin is still inflationary, it is de facto deflationary. This means people spend bitcoin only on 1) vital necessities (expensive goods that you need) & 2) something you economically value higher than bitcoin, things like good-performing startups, real estate, art, high-performing other cryptos, virtual commodities like domain names, etc. This is actually great when you think about it. Inflationary currencies don't give as much incentives to consumers to use their money wisely. That's partly where all the mindless consumerism comes fromy

So, it makes total sense: divide your income into cash for the short-term stuff & use bitcoin for long-term asset acquisitions.

This x1000.

A lot of people make the argument that since Bitcoin is deflationary, it will encourage hoarding and never function as a currency. Well, a bucket of gold is worth less than a bucket of water to a man in the desert. So people will continue to spend their money on things that are essential (food, rent, utilities etc.), or on things that they get real value out of and just cut out spending on all of the stupid consumer spending / impulse buying. Bitcoin, teaching humanity to delay gratification one (wo)man at a time.

Amazing article explaining all the reasons why Peter Schiff is wrong about Bitcoin.

Wall Street analysts give Bitcoin almost the same valuation as I have.

Me
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Made my first purchase with Bitcoin, the entire collection of Monstercat (15 albums) for just over 0.02 BTC (US$27). It took less than 20 seconds, and the only information I had to submit with it was an email address to recieve my download codes. Easiest online payment I have ever made. Recommended.

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12-03-2013 04:36 PM
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samsamsam Offline
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Post: #502
RE: Bitcoins up 60% in less than a month
I have been reading about rigs, etc. Do any of you mine? It seems like the Bitcoin train has left the station but litecoins still has a chance. Meaning you can recover investment in a reasonable period of time - rest would be profit - even if just a few pennies a day after electricity (way down the road when it becomes much harder to make a coin).

Your thoughts?

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12-03-2013 05:30 PM
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Emancipator Offline
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Post: #503
RE: Bitcoins up 60% in less than a month
(12-01-2013 07:21 PM)JayJuanGee Wrote:  
(12-01-2013 06:55 PM)JackDavey Wrote:  
Quote:Additionally, a 1% fee for immediate transfer does seem like a pretty high rate to cash out

To me, this seems like a good rate. Suppose I set up an online store for some product or service. Were I to use, say Stripe to process credit card payments, I'd pay a fee of 2.9% + $0.30 per transaction.

I'm sure there are other services, though, which may have better rates, both for credit cards and for Bitcoin. The above was just an example of a bitcoin payment processor in answer to your question.

A better idea would be to accept Bitcoin payments and have software which routes them, in whole or in part, to your wallet on an exchange and places an immediate sell order at the best market rate. The exchange fees are considerably lower, from what I have seen: 0.5% on bitstamp, 0.3% on kraken, and these decrease with the volume of trading that you do, if I understand correctly.

Honestly, this might all be irrelevant if you simply are looking to make periodic investments long term. But it's something to think about as far as the potential for Bitcoin to be useful as a currency with minimal risk.

JackD: I appreciate your various explanations of different processing options.

I certainly would NOT poo poo a 1% charge, if that is clearly going to get me out of something quickly and I am set up for such exiting, yet a problem is that I am still learning and building my portfolio, so I am in NO position to be attempting to make quick profit turn overs. I agree that 1% is NOT necessarily bad, if a guy is in a position to cash out - especially, if he had been in for a while and ready to quickly take profits

For example, a guy who may have bought 100 BTC at less than $100 may want to cash out when the market reached $1200. Coinbase is only going to allow 10 BTC per day, so it would take 10 days to cash out through Coinbase.

Additionally, NO matter what the service that a guy uses, he needs to be aware of various exit strategies that are available to him and the various fees and how quickly the money is going to show up and whether he thinks that he can get away with claiming it on his taxes. Again, as you read my intentions correctly, I am planning at least a few months to ride out the volatility - NOT day trading and/or even short-term trading - unless the market atmosphere dramatically changes in some direction that I had NOT anticipated... At this point, we are just getting back and forth hype.. which I already knew that coming in, and if the market is up and down for hype, then I am just staying in. On the other hand, if there is some big news or legislation.. that may cause me to rethink, and possibly to cut my losses..

JayJuanGee I think you're confusing Coinbase's merchant options with its options for regular personal individuals.

Right now I'm incorporating BitPay as a payment processor and I can either have my received balance payed out in btc to my wallet or in fiat to my bank account.

No fees, 30$ /month

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12-04-2013 01:04 AM
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JayJuanGee Offline
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Post: #504
RE: Bitcoins up 60% in less than a month
(12-04-2013 01:04 AM)Emancipator Wrote:  JayJuanGee I think you're confusing Coinbase's merchant options with its options for regular personal individuals.

Right now I'm incorporating BitPay as a payment processor and I can either have my received balance payed out in btc to my wallet or in fiat to my bank account.

No fees, 30$ /month

Emancipator:

You may be correct that I am confusing options that are available and fees that may apply and/or transactional times on Coinbase.

I was attempting to explain my newbie experience with Coinbase.

I signed up for a Coinbase account on last Friday, 11/29 and purchased .45 BTC (for $518), and the message from Coinbase was that I would receive the .45 BTC on Thursday, 12/5. I just went to my Coinbase transactions history, and it shows that the .45 BTC is "pending," but it does NOT show any date. Then, I went to my linked bank account, and it say that the withdrawal of $518 is pending - and was initiated on today, 12/3.

I do NOT know about Coinbase fees, yet, and I see that a guy can set up automatic purchase of BitCoin transactions, yet I cannot see how a guy would set up automated deposits of dollars into my bank account.

Further, I will be a little irritated if were to sign up for automatic transactions and those were to have fees or if they are going to continue to take 5 business days to process my purchasing of BTC from my bank account.

I may well be getting mixed up b/c I do NOT understand how to use the Coinbase service exactly. However, it looks as if once the service is set up, then I can buy and sell services in BTC from my Iphone (b/c I downloaded the Coinbase app onto my IPhone). What fees there are for use of IPhone transactions? I do NOT know, yet.

Anybody want to send some Bitcoins to my Coinbase account, so I can verify whether there are any fees to receive BTC? Just send me a nice even number like 10 BTC, and I will attempt to confirm whether I suffered any fees. I hear that there are several RVF members who have accumulated BTC and may be able to spare and share for the purpose of RVF experimentation.


Edit Also, BTW, I had begun the process of using credit card verification on Coinbase b/c I was thinking that I may be able to expedite my transactions and/or get some kinds of benefits by having a credit card verified. And, that credit card verification service is still pending further action from me, which I have NOT yet completed.

Do any of you guys believe that there is any advantage to having credit card verification on Coinbase? if so, what is that? If NOT, why NOT?

My reservation was sharing too much of my information with Coinbase and/or anyone else (such as da govt, that may get a hold of this information), yet Coinbase already has my bank account information, so, they already know quite a bit about me... so what else do I have to lose by giving them my credit card? I do recognize that giving them my credit card allows my credit card to be used as a back up payment system towards Coinbase that Coinbase could collect from my credit card in certain circumstances in which I may overdraft on my Coinbase account.
(This post was last modified: 12-04-2013 02:44 AM by JayJuanGee.)
12-04-2013 02:32 AM
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Maciano Offline
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Post: #505
RE: Bitcoins up 60% in less than a month
I just thought of the best investment in bitcoin for the short term: the guys who work on the bitcoin ATM.

BitPay & CoinBase are important for merchants, but the Bitcoin ATM is what will make bitcoin great in another very profound way.

Let's say you have country A (Belgium) where quite a bit of Congolese/Rwandese immigrants/refugees live who want to send money to relatives in country B (Congo). They can just change cash for bitcoin and send it directly to B. Now remember this: Moneygram & Western Union offer the same service. It just takes longer (red-tape), has a risk premium (10% of total amount is annexed) & is less safe by definition, because there are many people in between who have to be trusted with large sums of money. Bitcoin beats Western Union on three accounts, but also offers more privacy, doesn't need to be exchanged per se & increases in value (thnx to de facto deflationary effect). (I'd highly recommend people to short stocks of money transfer businesses the next years..)

Other:
- Bitcoin's fungibility also makes it more attractive to send small remittances. This is impractical w/ money transfer businesses, because of all the regulatory work & fees attached to it.
- This would also be very usable if you want to donate cash money to charities, people or organisations who are politically persecuted (worldwide).
- The Bitcoin ATM is also used on airports for tourists/business people to exchange leftover foreign valuta to bitcoin.
- You would have an alternative to credit cards in foreign countries.

I'm sure there will be many different apllications

Even if bitcoin doesn't outcompete Western Union, it extends money transfer services to a whole new level. That would extend the current market immensely.
(This post was last modified: 12-04-2013 04:45 AM by Maciano.)
12-04-2013 04:40 AM
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JackDavey Offline
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Post: #506
RE: Bitcoins up 60% in less than a month
(12-04-2013 02:32 AM)JayJuanGee Wrote:  Do any of you guys believe that there is any advantage to having credit card verification on Coinbase? if so, what is that? If NOT, why NOT?

Verifying a credit card is necessary in order to make instant purchases.
12-04-2013 07:29 AM
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el mechanico Offline
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Post: #507
RE: Bitcoins up 60% in less than a month
Notice they changed the scale to mbtc on bitcoinity. Why?
12-04-2013 07:32 AM
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pants Offline
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Post: #508
RE: Bitcoins up 60% in less than a month
Although I am not sure what their motivation for mBTC is, I can se several benefits.

- More practical to talk about 1mBTC for a coke, than 0.001BTC. After all, what we want is bitcoin to catch on as a valid widely spread payment system.

-Shows the general public a bitcoin is dividable. Many people think one bitcoin is to expensive, this way they can see its possible to buy part of a bitcoin.

- More peoiple wanting to invest money for a mBTC. Theres something psychological about paying x amount for 100 of something than x amount for 0.1.
12-04-2013 10:50 AM
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JayJuanGee Offline
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Post: #509
RE: Bitcoins up 60% in less than a month
(12-04-2013 10:50 AM)pants Wrote:  Although I am not sure what their motivation for mBTC is, I can se several benefits.

- More practical to talk about 1mBTC for a coke, than 0.001BTC. After all, what we want is bitcoin to catch on as a valid widely spread payment system.

-Shows the general public a bitcoin is dividable. Many people think one bitcoin is to expensive, this way they can see its possible to buy part of a bitcoin.

- More peoiple wanting to invest money for a mBTC. Theres something psychological about paying x amount for 100 of something than x amount for 0.1.

Exactly, it is like the stock has split, and creates a public perception issue.


(12-04-2013 07:29 AM)JackDavey Wrote:  
(12-04-2013 02:32 AM)JayJuanGee Wrote:  Do any of you guys believe that there is any advantage to having credit card verification on Coinbase? if so, what is that? If NOT, why NOT?

Verifying a credit card is necessary in order to make instant purchases.

Thanks Jack. I just went to the coinbase website, and I verified the amounts that they sent to my credit card.

Afterwards, I attempted to make an instant transaction of .1 BTC, and I received the below message.

"please wait until your first bitcoin purchase completes before making additional purchases.
(Once your first purchase completes you can make multiple purchases at the same time.)"


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12-04-2013 02:18 PM
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Tex Pro Offline
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Post: #510
RE: Bitcoins up 60% in less than a month
If they are switching to mBTC, then the suggested fees at a lot of places have to go down. Right now some places still put in 1mBTC fee for processing transactions.
(This post was last modified: 12-04-2013 02:21 PM by Tex Pro.)
12-04-2013 02:20 PM
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Tex Pro Offline
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Post: #511
RE: Bitcoins up 60% in less than a month
(12-04-2013 04:40 AM)Maciano Wrote:  I'm sure there will be many different apllications

Even if bitcoin doesn't outcompete Western Union, it extends money transfer services to a whole new level. That would extend the current market immensely.

What we really need right now is an AI escrow service that is 100% reliable in order to facilitate commerce in bitcoins.

I imagine this wouldn't be too hard to design since all the AI escrow service would need to be is a cloud service that you send your bitcoin to and it would release the bitcoin to the other party when a transaction is fulfilled completely and send out a receipt to both parties by e-mail. The only hitch is this AI escrow service would need to be damn near hack proof, which would mean that it would have to be a major tech company that would have to implement it.
12-04-2013 02:28 PM
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Tex Pro Offline
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Post: #512
RE: Bitcoins up 60% in less than a month
Ron Paul: Bitcoin could 'destroy the dollar':

http://money.cnn.com/2013/12/04/technolo...bertarian/

Banana
(This post was last modified: 12-04-2013 04:15 PM by Tex Pro.)
12-04-2013 04:13 PM
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el mechanico Offline
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Post: #513
RE: Bitcoins up 60% in less than a month
The more I think about it the more excited I am about the new scale. I hope everyone adopts it.

I just bought 100 mbtc or I just bought .003 btc. Just sounds like a winner.

I didn't do the math above just making a point.
12-04-2013 05:13 PM
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Grit Offline
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Post: #514
RE: Bitcoins up 60% in less than a month
Yeah that shit is going to catch on like a wildfire if you can claim to own 'microBits' 'milliBits' 'nanoBits' etc. sounds like the perfect combo of futuristic geek avant garde
(This post was last modified: 12-04-2013 05:27 PM by Grit.)
12-04-2013 05:26 PM
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el mechanico Offline
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RE: Bitcoins up 60% in less than a month
(12-04-2013 05:26 PM)Grit Wrote:  Yeah that shit is going to catch on like a wildfire if you can claim to own 'microBits' 'milliBits' 'nanoBits' etc. sounds like the perfect combo of futuristic geek avant garde
Kick ass

My friends... Fucking retards.. Have the mentality.. One coin? How much? It's not even a physical coin anyway!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(This post was last modified: 12-04-2013 05:32 PM by el mechanico.)
12-04-2013 05:29 PM
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Satoshi Offline
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Post: #516
RE: Bitcoins up 60% in less than a month
(12-04-2013 04:40 AM)Maciano Wrote:  I just thought of the best investment in bitcoin for the short term: the guys who work on the bitcoin ATM.

BitPay & CoinBase are important for merchants, but the Bitcoin ATM is what will make bitcoin great in another very profound way.

Let's say you have country A (Belgium) where quite a bit of Congolese/Rwandese immigrants/refugees live who want to send money to relatives in country B (Congo). They can just change cash for bitcoin and send it directly to B. Now remember this: Moneygram & Western Union offer the same service. It just takes longer (red-tape), has a risk premium (10% of total amount is annexed) & is less safe by definition, because there are many people in between who have to be trusted with large sums of money. Bitcoin beats Western Union on three accounts, but also offers more privacy, doesn't need to be exchanged per se & increases in value (thnx to de facto deflationary effect). (I'd highly recommend people to short stocks of money transfer businesses the next years..)

Other:
- Bitcoin's fungibility also makes it more attractive to send small remittances. This is impractical w/ money transfer businesses, because of all the regulatory work & fees attached to it.
- This would also be very usable if you want to donate cash money to charities, people or organisations who are politically persecuted (worldwide).
- The Bitcoin ATM is also used on airports for tourists/business people to exchange leftover foreign valuta to bitcoin.
- You would have an alternative to credit cards in foreign countries.

I'm sure there will be many different apllications

Even if bitcoin doesn't outcompete Western Union, it extends money transfer services to a whole new level. That would extend the current market immensely.
Maciano I been reading about this BTC ATMs and I know it's possible to order one for $5000. I been considering it however I was think about what the total cost would be. Behind the cost of the ATM it's also costs to put BTC and fiat in it, cost to have space in a good location, cost for security, possible cost the government and probably a lot more. Did you think anything about this and in that case what was you conclusion?

JJG: At this moment all the exchange are overwhelm with new customers and orders. Don't know the number but some sites have seen a 500% raise of traffic in the last weeks. Coinbase is a legit company so you should not worry. If the bank transfer is pending it's no problem that the BTC transaction is too. The iPhone app should have no additional fees if not said so. To everyone, save your BTC safely.

The one who don't understand that BTC can be broken down in smaller pieces should not invest.

New all time high as I write.
(This post was last modified: 12-04-2013 06:30 PM by Satoshi.)
12-04-2013 06:23 PM
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phoenix101 Offline
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Post: #517
RE: Bitcoins up 60% in less than a month
Yikes, let's see how much damage China's statement does...I knew the China hype would end up being smoke and ashes however there are enough people around to fuel this for much longer or see it in another incarnation down the line.
12-05-2013 03:44 AM
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JayJuanGee Offline
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Post: #518
RE: Bitcoins up 60% in less than a month
(12-05-2013 03:44 AM)phoenix101 Wrote:  Yikes, let's see how much damage China's statement does...I knew the China hype would end up being smoke and ashes however there are enough people around to fuel this for much longer or see it in another incarnation down the line.

I don't mean to be a complainer, or maybe I do... Smile...

Anyhow, Phoenix, I did NOT know what the heck you were referring to in your above post. In this regard, it would have been NICE to have a link or context or something or at least a bit more of a description about what you were referring to.

I DONT watch TV or follow mainstream news, so I had to do a quick Google search regarding whatever China may have said. I found this link:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/12/0...KZ20131205

In essence the article that I found is saying that China is going to cause some regularities and regulation and laundering protections. Is that what you were referring to?

I also noticed that Bitcoin prices have dropped by about 10% in the last couple of hours, which yeah, we know bitcoins are volatile.

ON a personal note, I hope that there is about a 50% downward adjustment, so that I can feel better buying.

I DO NOT see any problems in the long term values of bitcoin system with China making statements about more regulations and protections.. etc etc. etc.... they have to say those kinds of things...b/c otherwise the USA and its banking systems are going to crack down hard on this whole Bitcoin system.

If you were referring to something else, then please share content and/or analysis for us people who are NOT in the know.
12-05-2013 04:22 AM
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K-man Offline
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Post: #519
RE: Bitcoins up 60% in less than a month
So do we have any forum Bitcoin millionaires already? This thread was started in March when they were $45 and if someone loaded up they are now worth more than $1,000 so they could be balling.
12-05-2013 05:17 AM
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Pyre Offline
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Post: #520
RE: Bitcoins up 60% in less than a month
(12-05-2013 04:22 AM)JayJuanGee Wrote:  I DO NOT see any problems in the long term values of bitcoin system with China making statements about more regulations and protections.. etc etc. etc.... they have to say those kinds of things...b/c otherwise the USA and its banking systems are going to crack down hard on this whole Bitcoin system.

"I fought the law and the law won"

Governments are doing everything they can to end bitcoin.

At this point in the game, it's a losing proposition for the individual. The individual is no match for all the world governments no matter how much they want.

Maybe sometime in the future, but today's bitcoin system is not going to upend the world's currency situation.
12-05-2013 07:41 AM
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Maciano Offline
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Post: #521
RE: Bitcoins up 60% in less than a month
"Maciano I been reading about this BTC ATMs and I know it's possible to order one for $5000. I been considering it however I was think about what the total cost would be. Behind the cost of the ATM it's also costs to put BTC and fiat in it, cost to have space in a good location, cost for security, possible cost the government and probably a lot more. Did you think anything about this and in that case what was you conclusion?"

All true and I considered it, but that's a business case of magnitudes smaller than Western Union manages to get by with. You'd have to place the Bitcoin ATM on a guaranteed safe location, like an airport, train station or center of a big city near the cops or big bank. Heck, MacDonald's or Starbucks could even work.
http://mashable.com/2013/10/30/bitcoin-atm-2/

Always remember, no matter how big the investment: if you can guaranteed make more money you should always do it. A bitcoin ATM is something that will guaranteed make more money than it will ever cost and you can be pretty sure if you don't someone else will surely do it.
(This post was last modified: 12-05-2013 08:42 AM by Maciano.)
12-05-2013 08:39 AM
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pants Offline
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Post: #522
RE: Bitcoins up 60% in less than a month
How can you be so confident a Bitcoin ATM is a guarantee win?

Although I have to admit it looks like a very interesting opportunity, I still think there is fair amount of risk involved.

Major risk could be.

- Interest in bitcoin
- hardware failure
- theft

If I were to invest in an Bitcoin ATM, I would put it a oriental market next to western union. That´s a good spot.

Has there really ever been possible for a private person to own a ATM in this way before?
12-05-2013 10:07 AM
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Maciano Offline
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Post: #523
RE: Bitcoins up 60% in less than a month
"How can you be so confident a Bitcoin ATM is a guarantee win?"

Business case Western Union/Moneygram: offices have very high variable & fixed costs per year (office, r heating, employees, computer systems, security) & huge infrastructure network overhead. They take 10% fee of total money amount.

vs.

Business case Bitcoin ATM: a one-time purchase (of 5000$ for 2 years) & some variable costs for security, money refills, location costs. They take very low fees (or none), possible for small amounts b/c of deflationary character. (BitPay doesn't charge small merchants anything.)

Bitcoin ATM offers same service to larger market -- but more secure, faster & less parties in between.

I'm no VC, but I'd put my money down for that in a heartbeat.
12-05-2013 10:42 AM
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Post: #524
RE: Bitcoins up 60% in less than a month
(12-05-2013 07:41 AM)Pyre Wrote:  
(12-05-2013 04:22 AM)JayJuanGee Wrote:  I DO NOT see any problems in the long term values of bitcoin system with China making statements about more regulations and protections.. etc etc. etc.... they have to say those kinds of things...b/c otherwise the USA and its banking systems are going to crack down hard on this whole Bitcoin system.

"I fought the law and the law won"

Governments are doing everything they can to end bitcoin.

At this point in the game, it's a losing proposition for the individual. The individual is no match for all the world governments no matter how much they want.

Maybe sometime in the future, but today's bitcoin system is not going to upend the world's currency situation.

Pyre:

Since Bitcoin is very much a moving target - that continues to be up and down more than 20% on nearly a daily basis, my thought on the topic are still moving around about Bitcoin b/c of these volatility influences and my learning about the Bitcoin system as I am investing into it.

Whether I am late to the game or early or middle, remains unclear, at this time.

At this time, I agree with you that there are a lot of government entities and finanicial institutions that are working to undermine Bitcoin. There is also some behind the scenes entities working to buttress the system - and yes, quite a few of those behind the scenes entities are recently rich rather than more established or longer rich institutions, such as governments. In this regard, we need to watch what China and it people are doing regarding this investment, rather than what they are saying.

In part for the reasons above, I am disinclined to agree with your current prognosis for Bitcoin.

At this point, are you IN Bitcoin at all? Are you playing Bitcoin at all for the short term? You are generally predicting NOT likely for the long-term - though possible. Accordingly, are you IN at all for the long term, and if so, how much and how?


Regarding the ATM discussion, it seems that someone who is already set up for trading, would be in a good position to set up a Bitcoin ATM - buying and selling at set rates that are profitable. He would set up a buying and sales algorithm that would protect his assets, and since one ATM could only process so many transactions - 30-50 per hour at the most. Just like banks tend to NOT have deposit limits, they have daily withdrawal limits.

Accordingly, if the guy already has 50 bit coins, then he would automatically set his sales rates, daily limits so that the price reflect that he would never fall below a certain balance of coins. In that regard, the rates and limits would be different, if his coin quantity were to go down to 20 coins or even 5 coins. No matter what, he sets the buy and the sell rates to maintain profits and to ensure protection of principle. Through the algorithm, the ATM could also be set up to automatically refill from purchases from outside instant pay entities, such as coinbase - which also would affect the buy/sell rate and daily limit at the ATM, but be set up to ensure profits.

Locating the Bitcoin ATM in an area of already existing ATMs is a good way to piggy back off of the security infrastructure already in place.
12-05-2013 01:02 PM
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Post: #525
RE: Bitcoins up 60% in less than a month
Ha to all the haters of bitcoin. The price didn't crash, even with the slightly negative news out of China.
12-05-2013 01:52 PM
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