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China is Engineering Genius Babies (VICE)
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guerrilla Offline
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Post: #26
RE: China is Engineering Genius Babies (VICE)
If China becomes full of supergeniuses with ultra high IQs, it will also become full of neurotics who cant get laid because they cant relate man, they cant relate.
(This post was last modified: 03-16-2013 05:08 PM by guerrilla.)
03-16-2013 05:08 PM
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bodmon Offline
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RE: China is Engineering Genius Babies (VICE)
could also be titled, China is Engineering Socially Awkward Phaggots
03-16-2013 05:10 PM
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RE: China is Engineering Genius Babies (VICE)
VICE sucks at Science almost as much as Mark Ames sucks at Economics. Here's a much better article on this topic: Chinese Eugenics. A passage:

Quote:China has been running the world's largest and most successful eugenics program for more than thirty years, driving China's ever-faster rise as the global superpower. I worry that this poses some existential threat to Western civilization. Yet the most likely result is that America and Europe linger around a few hundred more years as also-rans on the world-historical stage, nursing our anti-hereditarian political correctness to the bitter end.

When I learned about Chinese eugenics this summer, I was astonished that its population policies had received so little attention. China makes no secret of its eugenic ambitions, in either its cultural history or its government policies.

For generations, Chinese intellectuals have emphasized close ties between the state (guojia), the nation (minzu), the population (renkou), the Han race (zhongzu), and, more recently, the Chinese gene-pool (jiyinku). Traditional Chinese medicine focused on preventing birth defects, promoting maternal health and "fetal education" (taijiao) during pregnancy, and nourishing the father's semen (yangjing) and mother's blood (pingxue) to produce bright, healthy babies (see Frank Dikötter's book Imperfect Conceptions). Many scientists and reformers of Republican China (1912-1949) were ardent Darwinians and Galtonians. They worried about racial extinction (miezhong) and "the science of deformed fetuses" (jitaixue), and saw eugenics as a way to restore China's rightful place as the world's leading civilization after a century of humiliation by European colonialism. The Communist revolution kept these eugenic ideals from having much policy impact for a few decades though. Mao Zedong was too obsessed with promoting military and manufacturing power, and too terrified of peasant revolt, to interfere with traditional Chinese reproductive practices.

But then Deng Xiaoping took power after Mao's death. Deng had long understood that China would succeed only if the Communist Party shifted its attention from economic policy to population policy. He liberalized markets, but implemented the one-child policy —partly to curtail China's population explosion, but also to reduce dysgenic fertility among rural peasants. Throughout the 1980s, Chinese propaganda urges couples to have children "later, longer, fewer, better"—at a later age, with a longer interval between birth, resulting in fewer children of higher quality. With the 1995 Maternal and Infant Health Law (known as the Eugenic Law until Western opposition forced a name change), China forbade people carrying heritable mental or physical disorders from marrying, and promoted mass prenatal ultrasound testing for birth defects. Deng also encouraged assortative mating through promoting urbanization and higher education, so bright, hard-working young people could meet each other more easily, increasing the proportion of children who would be at the upper extremes of intelligence and conscientiousness.

"The great secret of happiness in love is to be glad that the other fellow married her." – H.L. Mencken
03-17-2013 02:02 AM
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Mage Offline
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Post: #29
RE: China is Engineering Genius Babies (VICE)
I don't think that high IQ will necessary solve worlds problems (or nations problems as Chinese think, but technology spreads trough nations fast). High IQ solves some problems but creates others. Yes low IQ people are probably more likely to become addicted to drugs and use violence, but high IQ people are more likely to become addicted to videogames and surrender their rights of violence to bully governments.

What it could create trough is an absurd situation where any child concieved natrurally would be labeled a failure trough his whole life and all children except accidents would be conceived in lab. Birth control would be indirectly forced even on religious married people who want children, otherwise they risk creating a child who performs worse then others, who might perhaps be denied from higher education for his birth alone and which parent would want that for his child?

In future women will be able to shop for sperm of famous men with good genetics and impregnate themselves in a lab, any man who impregnates a woman the natural way will be heavily punished. Oh wait ... this is happening already...
03-17-2013 09:44 AM
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Icarus Offline
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RE: China is Engineering Genius Babies (VICE)
One of the guys involved in this cognitive genomics program is physicist Steve Hsu. If you are interested in the science behind this, take a look at his Google Tech Talk:





Hsu is an interesting guy. His father was an aerospace engineering professor in Iowa, he was a child prodigy who went to Caltech at age 16 to study Physics (he learned Quantum Mechanics from Feynman), he was a Fellow at Harvard. He's interested in genetics, not just in intelligence, but also athletic performance. For example, he is a great admirer of Usain Bolt. He's not a herbling: he does martial arts, and loves MMA. Interestingly, he has used the "alpha vs beta" dichotomy in his blog. His blog is linked by Heartiste.

If one can sequence DNA from an embryo in a non-destructive manner, then eugenics will be transformed forever. One of the interesting uses of such pre-natal sequencing would be to select what talents a child will (likely) have. For example, you can fertilize 100 eggs (from the same mother, with the same sperm), and choose the one most likely to have:
  • a very high IQ, or
  • high athletic ability (in case you want a son who will be an olympic swimmer, or something like that), or
  • high physical attractiveness.

This assumes that the genes or groups of genes that determine high intelligence, athletic performance, or physical attractiveness will be found, of course. The era of designer babies is upon us!

"The great secret of happiness in love is to be glad that the other fellow married her." – H.L. Mencken
(This post was last modified: 03-17-2013 01:11 PM by Icarus.)
03-17-2013 12:57 PM
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RichieP Offline
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RE: China is Engineering Genius Babies (VICE)
This feels quite sad. It honestly feels like science losing it's way.

So, lets say you can make a kid with an IQ of 200. And what kind of prospective parents will go in for that treatment? The ones who only give their kid conditional love for being the absolute best. That makes for an unhappy kid. Then we get more highly accomplished geniuses who are driven at all costs to succeed just to feel loved.

And then they grow up and end up being the ones relentlessly driving business or research forward beyond what is necessary or wise, trying to fill some emotional hole inside.

I hope we can defuse this vicious circle as a society someday. It seems like it's spiralling out of control. Growth and knowledge are important, but not when the driving root cause is some desperate need for approval.

That's how we end up with dysfunctional corporations that ravage resources, and scientists who push too too far without thought for wisdom or caution. It's all unmet needs, trying to be "great" at all costs. It would be a tragedy if this was our ultimate undoing as a species. And it might be.
(This post was last modified: 03-17-2013 07:23 PM by RichieP.)
03-17-2013 07:21 PM
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Icarus Offline
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RE: China is Engineering Genius Babies (VICE)
(03-17-2013 07:21 PM)RichieP Wrote:  So, lets say you can make a kid with an IQ of 200. And what kind of prospective parents will go in for that treatment? The ones who only give their kid conditional love for being the absolute best. That makes for an unhappy kid. Then we get more highly accomplished geniuses who are driven at all costs to succeed just to feel loved.

I think you're exaggerating.

I don't think the goal is to have a society in which everyone has an IQ above 180. Who is going to do the menial tasks? Someone with an IQ of 180 in a society in which the average IQ is 200 will be sweeping floors or flipping burgers. Kind of a waste of potential, I would say.

The harsh truth is that advances in some areas of Science and Mathematics require a critical mass of people whose IQ is sufficiently high. If you increase the number of geniuses via pre-natal selection, you can perhaps accelerate Science. Of course, if you create too many geniuses, they will all want to do String Theory, and no one will want to waste time with actual test tubes, or want to carry out actual experiments.

"The great secret of happiness in love is to be glad that the other fellow married her." – H.L. Mencken
03-17-2013 07:35 PM
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Lemmo Offline
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Post: #33
RE: China is Engineering Genius Babies (VICE)
(03-17-2013 07:21 PM)RichieP Wrote:  This feels quite sad. It honestly feels like science losing it's way.

So, lets say you can make a kid with an IQ of 200. And what kind of prospective parents will go in for that treatment? The ones who only give their kid conditional love for being the absolute best. That makes for an unhappy kid. Then we get more highly accomplished geniuses who are driven at all costs to succeed just to feel loved.

And then they grow up and end up being the ones relentlessly driving business or research forward beyond what is necessary or wise, trying to fill some emotional hole inside.

I hope we can defuse this vicious circle as a society someday. It seems like it's spiralling out of control. Growth and knowledge are important, but not when the driving root cause is some desperate need for approval.

That's how we end up with dysfunctional corporations that ravage resources, and scientists who push too too far without thought for wisdom or caution. It's all unmet needs, trying to be "great" at all costs. It would be a tragedy if this was our ultimate undoing as a species. And it might be.

Haha...yeah, society's big problems are overly concerned parents and too many ambitious, intelligent and creative people...Perhaps we can get the slum dwellers to crank out and neglect even more children to even things out.

I honestly can't see how any one is afraid of this given the current state of the world. Let's wring our hands over the prospect of science creating a world with too many intelligent, good looking, healthy people. And the mindless jobs are increasingly being automated so this lines up nicely with declining need for human cogs in the economy.
(This post was last modified: 03-17-2013 07:52 PM by Lemmo.)
03-17-2013 07:48 PM
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Kabal Away
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Post: #34
RE: China is Engineering Genius Babies (VICE)
Good for China.

IQ is one of the most important predictors of life outcomes, such as income, both within and across nations. Higher IQ nations are wealthier. High IQ nations have lower crime. High IQ nations will have lower natural discount rates. People who descend from high IQ populations do better wherever they go in the world, and people descended from low IQ populations worse.

If Chinese designer babies pan out and are a crucial factor that tips global competitiveness in favor of China, there will certainly be a degree of irony--as the refusal of Western zeitgeist to acknowledge the importance of IQ and its heritability, and the steadfast adherence to blank slatism has led to billions of dollars wasted and discriminatory policies, with East Asian Americans getting the worst of it.

You would much rather live in a civilization where your burger flippers have IQs of 120 and your scientists IQs of 160 than one where your burger flippers have IQs of 80 and scientists 120.

A la Gregory Clark, downward mobility with respect to IQ is the mark of an improving society, not upward mobility.

Eyebrow-raising amount of "blue pill" thinking in this thread for a forum that prides itself on having swallowed the "red pill".

This would be funny if it became more difficult to pull in Thailand and the Philippines in a few decades because they're swarmed with surplus "designer baby" males from China looking to score. Imagine a 4'11" girl in Cebu City turning her nose up at you because you're not a 6'5" 160 IQ model-esque Chinese guy.

#NoSingleMoms
#NoHymenNoDiamond
#DontWantDaughters
(This post was last modified: 03-18-2013 01:41 AM by Kabal.)
03-18-2013 01:13 AM
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RE: China is Engineering Genius Babies (VICE)
(03-18-2013 01:13 AM)Kabal Wrote:  Eyebrow-raising amount of "blue pill" thinking in this thread for a forum that prides itself on having swallowed the "red pill".

Indeed. This thread is full of comments like "high-IQ people are dysfunctional aspie nerds who are unloved and never get laid". Yeah, right, and all hot blondes are stupid, and all ridiculously handsome men are gay.

"The great secret of happiness in love is to be glad that the other fellow married her." – H.L. Mencken
(This post was last modified: 03-18-2013 01:49 AM by Icarus.)
03-18-2013 01:48 AM
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BurnFirst Offline
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Post: #36
RE: China is Engineering Genius Babies (VICE)
Personally, I'm not convinced that IQ is even a real thing at all.
03-18-2013 03:12 AM
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Blake2 Offline
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RE: China is Engineering Genius Babies (VICE)
(03-17-2013 02:02 AM)Icarus Wrote:  Deng also encouraged assortative mating through promoting urbanization and higher education, so bright, hard-working young people could meet each other more easily, increasing the proportion of children who would be at the upper extremes of intelligence and conscientiousness.

Huh, sounds like a good plan. I think thats what universities *should* be, though so often they are not.



Genius Babies
How is this Chinese program going now?


.

A man should never be ashamed to own that he is wrong, which is but saying in other words that he is wiser today than he was yesterday.
-Alexander Pope
(This post was last modified: 07-11-2019 03:12 PM by Blake2.)
07-11-2019 03:11 PM
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Montrose Offline
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RE: China is Engineering Genius Babies (VICE)
I was actually contacted by BGI for this program. They did not take my DNA because they only took people based in the US.
07-11-2019 03:27 PM
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911 Offline
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RE: China is Engineering Genius Babies (VICE)
(07-11-2019 03:11 PM)Blake2 Wrote:  
(03-17-2013 02:02 AM)Icarus Wrote:  Deng also encouraged assortative mating through promoting urbanization and higher education, so bright, hard-working young people could meet each other more easily, increasing the proportion of children who would be at the upper extremes of intelligence and conscientiousness.

Huh, sounds like a good plan. I think thats what universities *should* be, though so often they are not.

Genius Babies
How is this Chinese program going now?

Someone will bump up this thread 6 years from now to answer you.

λ ό γ ο ς
(This post was last modified: 07-11-2019 03:38 PM by 911.)
07-11-2019 03:37 PM
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Blake2 Offline
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RE: China is Engineering Genius Babies (VICE)
Well, it seems the Chinese are fully invested in genetics (the original programs as well as new ones)

"Chinese government funding may have been used for ‘CRISPR babies’ project, documents suggest"

-https://www.statnews.com/2019/02/25/crispr-babies-study-china-government-funding/



While they may be making mistakes, at least they are trying to build a productive society.

What are western societies focused on?


"American science in decline as China’s rises"
https://www.universityworldnews.com/post...7064734679

"The US is getting left behind as an innovator"
https://www.technologyreview.com/f/61004...innovator/

A man should never be ashamed to own that he is wrong, which is but saying in other words that he is wiser today than he was yesterday.
-Alexander Pope
(This post was last modified: 07-11-2019 04:02 PM by Blake2.)
07-11-2019 03:51 PM
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Pete Offline
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RE: China is Engineering Genius Babies (VICE)
(07-11-2019 03:51 PM)Blake2 Wrote:  Well, it seems the Chinese are fully invested in genetics (the original programs as well as new ones)

"Chinese government funding may have been used for ‘CRISPR babies’ project, documents suggest"

-https://www.statnews.com/2019/02/25/crispr-babies-study-china-government-funding/



While they may be making mistakes, at least they are trying to build a productive society.

What are western societies focused on?


"American science in decline as China’s rises"
https://www.universityworldnews.com/post...7064734679

"The US is getting left behind as an innovator"
https://www.technologyreview.com/f/61004...innovator/

Women's rights and equal pay for women!!!
(This post was last modified: 07-11-2019 07:08 PM by Pete.)
07-11-2019 07:08 PM
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Abelard Lindsey Offline
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RE: China is Engineering Genius Babies (VICE)
I'm assuming most of you in here are alt-right. Correct me if I'm wrong. I believe that the entire alt-right thing is an outgrowth of HBD race realism in general and in group differences in cognitive ability in particular. Given all of this, I would think that all of you alt-right guys would be 100% in favor of this kind of technology as well as eugenics in general. Afterall, what is the point of any kind of group identity if the group you want to identify with is no better than any other group out there.
07-12-2019 10:09 AM
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mr_ks Online
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RE: China is Engineering Genius Babies (VICE)
Producing high-quality humans is not a science project, it's a social one, and one of the most important things we should be focusing. The best humans should be having more children, and this is usually achieved by greater access to women for the best and brightest men. True 'Intelligence' or 'Fitness' is too complex a property to be genetically identifiable so I am not enthralled by such 'scientific' projects.
07-12-2019 02:02 PM
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RE: China is Engineering Genius Babies (VICE)
(07-12-2019 10:09 AM)Abelard Lindsey Wrote:  Given all of this, I would think that all of you alt-right guys would be 100% in favor of this kind of technology

It's all fine and dandy until babies start popping out with three arms and other deformities.

Playing God never ends well in the long term.
07-12-2019 02:12 PM
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RE: China is Engineering Genius Babies (VICE)
(03-16-2013 03:31 PM)OkStudies Wrote:  Actually the best predictor of success is not IQ but willpower and persistence.

http://www.bakadesuyo.com/2012/11/secret...giving-up/

Thanks for that link OkStudies. There is plenty of gold in there!

For entertainment and educational use only, your m8 Jackin'
07-12-2019 05:25 PM
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Kona Online
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RE: China is Engineering Genius Babies (VICE)
I was wondering why those chinamen wanted my DNA.

Aloha!
07-12-2019 10:20 PM
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RE: China is Engineering Genius Babies (VICE)
(07-12-2019 10:09 AM)Abelard Lindsey Wrote:  I'm assuming most of you in here are alt-right. Correct me if I'm wrong. I believe that the entire alt-right thing is an outgrowth of HBD race realism in general and in group differences in cognitive ability in particular. Given all of this, I would think that all of you alt-right guys would be 100% in favor of this kind of technology as well as eugenics in general. Afterall, what is the point of any kind of group identity if the group you want to identify with is no better than any other group out there.

My understanding is the media lumped in neo-nazis etc. as alt-right to tarnish it, but it's really any on the right wing who are effective, not play acting conservatives, hence the alternative right.

Having said that, pretty sure eugenics is something both sides of politics have espoused over the last century or so.
07-12-2019 11:06 PM
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RE: China is Engineering Genius Babies (VICE)
The only reason we're reading this article is because once upon a time a high IQ individual built the internet, and subsequent high IQ individuals refined it to make it usable for us today. Several years later a few high IQ, red pill individuals decided to discuss things in a roundtable over the internet, and hence this forum was born.

(03-18-2013 01:13 AM)Kabal Wrote:  IQ is one of the most important predictors of life outcomes, such as income, both within and across nations. Higher IQ nations are wealthier. High IQ nations have lower crime. High IQ nations will have lower natural discount rates. People who descend from high IQ populations do better wherever they go in the world, and people descended from low IQ populations worse.
[...]
Eyebrow-raising amount of "blue pill" thinking in this thread for a forum that prides itself on having swallowed the "red pill".

The main misconception floating around in general is that a higher IQ population will lead to a generation of aspies. While there are a sizable number of smart kids who do drop out the race in the name of WoW and Pringles, it's fair to say that given adequate resources, most high IQ people tend to lead successful lives. You think most self made millionaires are stupid? International players? Serial entrepreneurs? I would imagine that most men who crawl this forum are also relatively high IQ. Intelligent people generally have the know-how to navigate the world, professionally and socially, and as long as they avoid the clutches of hedonism - video games, porn, etc. - they will generally gravitate to some degree of success. I'm quite surprised that the "aspie, genius nerd" is the dominant archetype, but I would pin it to the MSM spoon-feeding society this generalization.

It's also absurd to argue against higher average intelligence for a nation, or even for the world at large. To put it bluntly, dumb people are against eugenics because they know they'll be culled, and intelligent people are generally for it unless they have personal reasons against it (religion, moral sentiments, etc.) Logically, it makes a whole lot of sense to breed only the best, as it will benefit the human race in the long term. If we plan on getting our shit together as a species and eventually colonizing the rest of the galaxy, we're going to need a lot more high IQ people to take the reins on this evolutionary project. Every innovation that has preceeded us, and every innovation that will proceed us, was developed by a high IQ individual. In other words, eugenics is the future.

The reason Anglo countries tend to band against it is because the elite would suffer with a large, intelligent, sentient population. It is more useful to them to have a large, dumb population who consumes, works for peanuts, and doesn't question what they see on TV. Eugenics is a net negative for the elite - although I imagine they practice it among themselves - and thus you will never hear it being given any consideration in public discourse.
07-13-2019 01:21 AM
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