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The NBA Thread
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jariel Offline
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Post: #3151
RE: The NBA Thread
(05-19-2015 10:55 AM)Nascimento Wrote:  I don't understand why the Rockets are so unlikable.

I was going for the Clippers and they knocked them out, and now I would much rather see the Rockets go through than the Warriors.

The Rockets' main players unlikable? I might be going against the grain here, but I find the Warriors' key players intolerable.

I start disliking players and teams as soon as they become overrun with bandwagoners and dickriders.

Steve Kerr inherited a team that was already good, it wasn't Mark Jackson's fault that Bogut was hurt for two years and Lee got hurt right before the playoffs last year.

You can't discount Curry's dominance, but Harden deserved to win the MVP award simply because his squad played shorthanded literally all year and he still made sure they balled out; Terrence Jones, Patrick Beverley, Dwight Howard, Donatas Motiejunas, etc. all missed extended periods of time.

People seem to ignore the fact that Howard only played 41 games this year, he missed HALF the season.

The Warriors wouldn't have been the #1 seed if Klay Thompson had missed half the year and Draymond Green missed 20 games.

I've never been the biggest Harden fan, but I give him props, all he does is ball out and win, he's not one of those dudes like Kevin Love who just puts up monster numbers while the team fuckin' sucks.
(This post was last modified: 05-19-2015 01:45 PM by jariel.)
05-19-2015 01:44 PM
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TheSlayer Offline
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Post: #3152
RE: The NBA Thread
(05-19-2015 01:21 PM)Enigma Wrote:  Huh

What are you talking about? I'm comparing Diaw's emergence in the 12-13 playoffs to Smith's now.

Diaw was practically out of the league in 2012. Dude was completely out of shape when he got cut by the Bobcats and was not a major contributor for the Spurs that next season.

It wasn't just PPG. Anyone who watched the games will tell you that.

Then in the playoffs he came out of nowhere and played amazing.

What Diaw is playing like now has no relevance to the analogy I was making.

From 2012:

NBA Trade Rumors: Teams Must Avoid An Out-of-Shape Boris Diaw

Best comment: "It's a shame Diaw is 2 ham sandwiches away from being out of the league." Laugh

I see, well mine was a general post comparing the two players. My main point was even when Diaw was almost out of the league he was a key contributor on the Suns and shown that he was a high-IQ player on the floor. Smith has always been the opposite of that.
05-19-2015 01:48 PM
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TheSlayer Offline
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Post: #3153
RE: The NBA Thread
(05-19-2015 01:44 PM)jariel Wrote:  
(05-19-2015 10:55 AM)Nascimento Wrote:  I don't understand why the Rockets are so unlikable.

I was going for the Clippers and they knocked them out, and now I would much rather see the Rockets go through than the Warriors.

The Rockets' main players unlikable? I might be going against the grain here, but I find the Warriors' key players intolerable.

I start disliking players and teams as soon as they become overrun with bandwagoners and dickriders.

Steve Kerr inherited a team that was already good, it wasn't Mark Jackson's fault that Bogut was hurt for two years and Lee got hurt right before the playoffs last year.

You can't discount Curry's dominance, but Harden deserved to win the MVP award simply because his squad played shorthanded literally all year and he still made sure they balled out; Terrence Jones, Patrick Beverley, Dwight Howard, Donatas Motiejunas, etc. all missed extended periods of time.

People seem to ignore the fact that Howard only played 41 games this year, he missed HALF the season.

The Warriors wouldn't have been the #1 seed if Klay Thompson had missed half the year and Draymond Green missed 20 games.

I've never been the biggest Harden fan, but I give him props, all he does is ball out and win, he's not one of those dudes like Kevin Love who just puts up monster numbers while the team fuckin' sucks.

But the Warriors won 67 games. And Curry was/is a better player than Harden. I think Harden has been a top 3 player this season but Curry has arguably been the best player in the league. I think people don't realize just how good of a shooter he is. And he isn't an Allen or Miller who needs to be set-up by others, he creates off the dribble and in the regular season was shooting 9 3s a game at almost 43%. That's better than NBA 2K numbers lol.

People talk about Harden's team missing players but Curry has a better on/off than Harden (meaning his team was worse without him on the floor than Harden's). Curry's gravity in distorting defenses in the league is unprecedented. I think right now only a healthy KD and LeBron rival that.
05-19-2015 01:51 PM
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Slim Shady Offline
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Post: #3154
RE: The NBA Thread
(05-19-2015 12:23 PM)Enigma Wrote:  
(05-19-2015 11:36 AM)Slim Shady Wrote:  It's not unwarranted Rockets hate, it's more that with such an inconsistent team that has to depend on Josh Smith to provide it with wins I'm not sure I'm going to get to watch a good series in the WCF.

By Josh Smith providing them with wins, do you mean almost like Boris Diaw did for the Spurs in their last two Finals runs?

And weren't you the one who just brought up the Spurs earlier on this page?


Did you forget that you were hating on the Rockets earlier in this thread, before the playoffs even started?

I brought up the Spurs as a hypothetical question to the people in the thread, especially to the people who follow the Rockets.

By the way I have no problem with Josh Smith. I think he is a good player. I just think it is strange people let him make so many 3's. My point was that Josh Smith shouldn't be your MVP on the way to a Championship.

I wasn't undermining the Rockets' win over the Clips by bringing up the Spurs. My point was more to do with inconsistent teams coming through and then ruining the later stages of the playoffs by getting cold.

By the way Enigma, you were conspicuously absent from the thread when the Rockets were quitting on D and 3-1 down!

You don't get there till you get there
(This post was last modified: 05-19-2015 01:59 PM by Slim Shady.)
05-19-2015 01:55 PM
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Post: #3155
RE: The NBA Thread
(05-19-2015 01:44 PM)jariel Wrote:  I start disliking players and teams as soon as they become overrun with bandwagoners and dickriders.

Steve Kerr inherited a team that was already good, it wasn't Mark Jackson's fault that Bogut was hurt for two years and Lee got hurt right before the playoffs last year.

If anything that makes me not like Steve Kerr. He wasn't even a great GM when he was with the Suns, and I would agree that his coaching success is more from the team and the assistants he has lined himself up with.

And I simply do not like the Rockets because of James Harden. Not a fan of his style of play.
(This post was last modified: 05-19-2015 01:59 PM by jayesco.)
05-19-2015 01:56 PM
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jariel Offline
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Post: #3156
RE: The NBA Thread
(05-19-2015 01:51 PM)TheSlayer Wrote:  People talk about Harden's team missing players but Curry has a better on/off than Harden (meaning his team was worse without him on the floor than Harden's). Curry's gravity in distorting defenses in the league is unprecedented. I think right now only a healthy KD and LeBron rival that.

Again, I'm not discounting Curry's effort, but let's stop using advanced statistics to make all of our arguments.

It means a lot when you can help your team win while being shorthanded, Curry played with a full hand all year, that's why they were able to blow so many bad teams out and sit guys in the 4th quarter.

We can talk about statistics, like the Rockets point-differential in the playoffs, but that doesn't change the fact that they're in the Conference Finals while other teams are watching them play.
05-19-2015 01:57 PM
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TheSlayer Offline
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Post: #3157
RE: The NBA Thread
(05-19-2015 01:57 PM)jariel Wrote:  
(05-19-2015 01:51 PM)TheSlayer Wrote:  People talk about Harden's team missing players but Curry has a better on/off than Harden (meaning his team was worse without him on the floor than Harden's). Curry's gravity in distorting defenses in the league is unprecedented. I think right now only a healthy KD and LeBron rival that.

Again, I'm not discounting Curry's effort, but let's stop using advanced statistics to make all of our arguments.

It means a lot when you can help your team win while being shorthanded, Curry played with a full hand all year, that's why they were able to blow so many bad teams out and sit guys in the 4th quarter.

We can talk about statistics, like the Rockets point-differential in the playoffs, but that doesn't change the fact that they're in the Conference Finals while other teams are watching them play.

Why should we not use advanced stats? If anything I think far too many people go by their "eye-test" but that's biased as hell and that impacts their judgement to rate players. I am not saying advanced stats are perfect and should be the be all and end all of these discussions but they are certainly pretty helpful.

All of that being said, my main point was that Curry also did more with more. He won 67 games. Only 6 other teams have done that in the history of the game.

Like you I am not discounting Harden or Curry, both would have been fine as the MVPs but I don't like the argument of Harden having his players missing. Well then Curry did MORE with MORE. GSW was blowing teams out and their point differential was close to the 96 Bulls while the Rockets still only won 56 games vs. 67 games for GSW.

For the record, I don't like the Rockets but I am not some blind Rockets hater either. I actually think Howard gets way too underrated by the casual fan/media because of his dumb personality but he's still a beast when healthy.

I think it will be a good WCF but think GSW takes this in 6.
05-19-2015 02:02 PM
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Enigma Offline
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Post: #3158
RE: The NBA Thread
(05-19-2015 01:55 PM)Slim Shady Wrote:  I brought up the Spurs as a hypothetical question to the people in the thread, especially to the people who follow the Rockets.

By the way I have no problem with Josh Smith. I think he is a good player. I just think it is strange people let him make so many 3's. My point was that Josh Smith shouldn't be your MVP on the way to a Championship.

Smith only scored more than 10 points twice in the 7 game Clippers series. He's averaging 13 and 6 for the playoffs. He's not even close to being the MVP.

Quote:I wasn't undermining the Rockets' win over the Clips by bringing up the Spurs. My point was more to do with inconsistent teams coming through and then ruining the later stages of the playoffs by getting cold.

A lot of people think the Spurs ruin the playoffs because of their style of play. That's tough luck. Whichever team wins, wins.

A lot of people didn't like the most recent Pistons title teams. I thought they were great. What can you do.

Quote:By the way Enigma, you were conspicuously absent from the thread when the Rockets were quitting on D and 3-1 down!

How was it conspicuous when I rarely post in this thread at all? If I want to talk basketball, I go to a basketball forum. I only pop in here every now and then when I see it near the top of the page.

They played liked bums early in the series and I was calling for McHale to be fired for letting the team half ass it out there. I talked all kinds of shit about Harden's defense last year.

But the truth is, they have not had a full team for the entire season. Between that and adding Ariza, Brewer, and Smith, plus the emergence of Motiejunas, they're still going through growing pains.

The fact that they finished with the 3rd best record in the league and now are in the conference finals, still missing two starters, is a testament to the type of team this is.
(This post was last modified: 05-19-2015 02:24 PM by Enigma.)
05-19-2015 02:23 PM
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Post: #3159
RE: The NBA Thread
People don't like the Rockets because:

- James Harden has a weird, passive-agressive personality and demeanor, his playing style doesn't always make his teammates better, he is not great on defense or rebounding, he manipulates the refs better than any other player, his "hipster" beard.

- Dwight Howard has a reputation for being soft, he doesn't play as hard as he should, he has a clownish, passive-aggressive personality and public persona.

(If these players were white, the public perception of them would be a little different, they would face less hate)

- The Rockets playing style is based on "analytics". They rely on the fact that shooting 33% from 3s is equal to shooting 50% from 2s. Their playing style is based on hard numbers/statistics which often takes away the artistic flow that many championship teams have.

- Their defense is inconsistent.

---

I think the Warriors are significantly better. I'll say Warriors in 5 or 6.

But, I would love to be wrong! I love surprises!

---

Hawks - Cavs could be interesting..
(This post was last modified: 05-19-2015 02:42 PM by Giovonny.)
05-19-2015 02:35 PM
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Slim Shady Offline
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Post: #3160
RE: The NBA Thread
(05-19-2015 02:23 PM)Enigma Wrote:  
Quote:I wasn't undermining the Rockets' win over the Clips by bringing up the Spurs. My point was more to do with inconsistent teams coming through and then ruining the later stages of the playoffs by getting cold.

A lot of people think the Spurs ruin the playoffs because of their style of play. That's tough luck. Whichever team wins, wins.

A lot of people didn't like the most recent Pistons title teams. I thought they were great. What can you do.

I never commented about style. I completely agree that a win is a win. You don't get there till you get there. But it is unfortunate for a fan if a team blows hot and cold and then tanks it in the next round giving us a lackluster series!

I would accuse the Clippers apart from Chris Paul of the same inconsistency. They robbed us of some great theater.

The Championship Spurs and Pistons teams didn't blow hot and cold. In fact a part of their "boring" style of play was their machine like consistency.

I'm not the "Rockets hater" you are making me out to be. I still sincerely do not believe they are that good of a team. You are saying this is a Championship caliber team, and I am saying that that is an insult to past Champions. We are getting a lower quality WCF.

How can you have your "MVP" sit out during an epic 4th quarter comeback during an elimination game? Sit out the entire 4th quarter?

Did Bird, Magic, Miller, Jordan, Bryant...hell even Paul Pierce...sit out?

The deal still stands though. If the Rockets win the Championship I'll put up a Harden poster in my house and post it on here.

You don't get there till you get there
(This post was last modified: 05-19-2015 02:47 PM by Slim Shady.)
05-19-2015 02:44 PM
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Enigma Offline
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Post: #3161
RE: The NBA Thread
(05-19-2015 02:44 PM)Slim Shady Wrote:  I never commented about style. I completely agree that a win is a win. You don't get there till you get there. But it is unfortunate for a fan if a team blows hot and cold and then tanks it in the next round giving us a lackluster series!

I would accuse the Clippers apart from Chris Paul of the same inconsistency. They robbed us of some great theater.

The Championship Spurs and Pistons teams didn't blow hot and cold. In fact a part of their "boring" style of play was their machine like consistency.

A lot of fans would argue that the NBA pushing to make things more "entertaining" is ruining the league.

Quote:I'm not the "Rockets hater" you are making me out to be. I still sincerely do not believe they are that good of a team. You are saying this is a Championship caliber team, and I am saying that that is an insult to past Champions. We are getting a lower quality WCF.

Where did I say this was a championship caliber team?

Also, they are missing two starters. I don't know how many times I have to post that.

You realize that Motiejunas ranked among the league leaders in post scoring efficiency, right? And the Rockets were among the league leaders in team defense when he and Howard were starting next to each other early in the season?

You realize that our PG rotation consists of a 37-year-old combo guard and a 38-year-old journeyman who didn't make the NBA until 3 years ago, right?

How exactly is that the Rockets fault? If you don't like it, ask another team to beat them. It's really that simple.

Quote:How can you have your "MVP" sit out during an epic 4th quarter comeback during an elimination game? Sit out the entire 4th quarter?

First of all, where did I say Harden was the MVP?

Second, that's one game, and Harden had the flu throughout that series. You do realize that, right?

Sources: Harden (flu) improving heading into Game 6

That's why they were calling the triple double he dropped in the game before his "flu game".

How is his forcing himself into the game when he's playing badly and his teammates are playing well a good thing?

And it's crazy that you're going to act like a team or player isn't good because role players step up. That's been the case on almost every championship ever.

Just nitpick after nitpick to try to discredit the Rockets in any way possible.

Quote:Did Bird, Magic, Miller, Jordan, Bryant...hell even Paul Pierce...sit out?

What does this conversation thread even have to do with the Rockets as a team? You're all over the place.

Quote:The deal still stands though. If the Rockets win the Championships I'll put up a Harden poster in my house and post it on here.

Great, man.
05-19-2015 03:13 PM
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RE: The NBA Thread
(05-19-2015 01:36 PM)jariel Wrote:  James Harden's stepback move is going to become iconic like AI's crossover.

Even I find myself practicing that move when I hit the park, we're both lefties, so I see why he likes to do it mostly when coming off his strong hand, it feels more natural.

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05-19-2015 05:38 PM
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RE: The NBA Thread
(05-19-2015 02:44 PM)Slim Shady Wrote:  How can you have your "MVP" sit out during an epic 4th quarter comeback during an elimination game? Sit out the entire 4th quarter?

Did Bird, Magic, Miller, Jordan, Bryant...hell even Paul Pierce...sit out?
I am in Curry > Harden camp, but I also rate Harden more than Westbrook and always thought he would be a better fit to play alongside Durant instead of RW.

Even when I am with you on this discussion vs Enigma and even when Enigma accused me of starting to watch basketball 3 weeks ago (which is quite funny by itself, as I would bet that I have the most experience with professional basketball among RVF-ers) it's easy to find games when team came back with leader was on the bench. Even when this leader was Michael Jordan.




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05-19-2015 06:50 PM
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RE: The NBA Thread
Just want to clarify I am not a Rocket hater. Far from it! Always had a soft spot for them since the days of the Dream. I am actually rooting for them against the Warriors. Contrary to what most feel, I believe they have a realistic shot at "upsetting" the Warriors and beating them.

As I type this, the Rockets are putting quite a show!
05-19-2015 08:53 PM
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RE: The NBA Thread
Harden putting on a clinic.
05-19-2015 10:16 PM
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RE: The NBA Thread
That last stepback reminded me a lot of Jordan vs. Byron Russell
05-19-2015 10:19 PM
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jariel Offline
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RE: The NBA Thread
Rockets lost Game 1 in the 2nd Quarter.

But you only need a split when you don't have home court advantage, if anything, at least they showed the Warriors this is going to be a series.
05-19-2015 10:40 PM
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RE: The NBA Thread
Hopefully Dwight is healthy for next game, there were tons of possessions were the Rockets bigs were not able to finish plays that would be lobs for Dwight, and as a result got easy run outs for threes and fast break buckets. Of course, he has to protect the ball better, but those are plays he usually makes. Houston looks alot more formidable than most probably thought, but they might have to hide Jet more on defense or take him out if hes not hitting shots. He played atrocious defense today and is basically a bucket waiting to happen.

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05-19-2015 11:06 PM
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RE: The NBA Thread
Steph defers too much when he's being guarded by Jet, everyone watching knows that is his time to be aggressive. Very disappointing execution by Bogues and Klay, have to play better than that next game.
05-19-2015 11:27 PM
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RE: The NBA Thread
I hate to say this, but I'm a little over the attention-whoring players are doing by having their kids sit in their laps during post-game press conferences.

It's great that some of these guys are also fathers and husbands, but I really don't give a shit.

I would feel differently if it was actually a genuine gesture, but the kid just looks like a prop while they try to intentionally convey a certain message to the media, advertisers, etc.
05-20-2015 02:54 PM
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RE: The NBA Thread
(05-19-2015 11:06 PM)Joga Bonito Wrote:  Hopefully Dwight is healthy for next game, there were tons of possessions were the Rockets bigs were not able to finish plays that would be lobs for Dwight, and as a result got easy run outs for threes and fast break buckets. Of course, he has to protect the ball better, but those are plays he usually makes. Houston looks alot more formidable than most probably thought, but they might have to hide Jet more on defense or take him out if hes not hitting shots. He played atrocious defense today and is basically a bucket waiting to happen.

I noticed late in the game in I think 2 back to back possessions big guys fucking up off good passes under the rim for the Rockets that could have got them back in the game late in the fourth. One guy caught the ball wide open under the basket and hesitated then pump faked and by the time he shot there was 2 guys on him and he missed. An on the next possession or the one after a guy just missed catching a pass under the rim.. then Curry hit a 3 and it was pretty much oversih.

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05-20-2015 03:18 PM
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RE: The NBA Thread
That Iggy throwdown was so savage that I about fell out of my seat!
05-21-2015 08:48 PM
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RE: The NBA Thread
One thing that drives me crazy is how obsessed the media is with Lebron. He was barely in the Top 5 league players in the MVP race (I'd say Curry, Harden, Davis, CP3, in no particular order not counting westbrook), but the media has such a hard on for him he is all they can talk about.


I couldn't enjoy the Bulls Cavs series because they'd talk over good Butler/Rose plays about Lebron - while the play was happening right there. The calls in both the Bulls/Cavs series, and so far in the Hawks/Cavs series seems to favor the Cavs as well. Broadcasters talked over 2-3 great ATL plays as they were happening, and afterwards. Jeff Teague was running the ball going drive-for-drive with Lebron in the first 3 quarters until Carroll got injured. The broadcasters were talking OVER Teague's great plays in the paint.


What it seems to me is that there is a lot of money involved in the success of Lebron. And the powers that be continue to push toward his success, despite his recently questionable shooting.

Lebron is better for SEO than any other player for the media, and we all know Michael Jordan's entire brand is one of the most profitable sports brands to ever have existed. In ad revenue, in product sales, in everything. My main point is this: The media are trying to sell Lebron as a Jordan.

From advertising his Sprite mix, to promoting his shows, to their perpetual inability to talk about many other players, the media constantly reminds me of trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.


The league is different than in the 90s. There are superstars on almost every team. Not only could Kahwi Leonard shut down Lebron, but Jimmy Butler showed he could too. If Anthony Davis does not get injured (I still think he will), he very will may surpass Lebron in performance - The kid is 22.


The game has moved on from the all-powerful superstar figure, and the media is disgusting trying to force #23 on the Cavs down our throat.
(This post was last modified: 05-21-2015 09:27 PM by ManVsMachine.)
05-21-2015 09:25 PM
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Post: #3174
RE: The NBA Thread
Yup, I'm sick of all the Lebron talk too. Can't wait til the Hawks eliminate the Cavs so we could get a break from it.
05-21-2015 10:00 PM
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Professor Fox Offline
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Post: #3175
RE: The NBA Thread
Dubs drive me insane when they go for the showy one handed flings rather than a simple pass.
05-21-2015 10:06 PM
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