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The NBA Thread
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JayMillz Offline
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RE: The NBA Thread
(07-01-2014 12:50 PM)Sonsowey Wrote:  OKC looks set to sign... no one.

That team will be KD, Russ, Ibaka, Perkins, Nick Collison, and everyone else is on rookie deals.

Anyone think OKC has a shot this year? I am doubting more and more.



07-01-2014 12:54 PM
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MidWest Offline
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RE: The NBA Thread
AHHHHHH YEAH!!!!!!!!!!!


[Image: BrevvpNCIAAif5H.jpg:large]




Will Melo take less money to come to Chicago??? I like our chances.
07-01-2014 03:02 PM
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RE: The NBA Thread
Wonder if Thibs could make Melo a good defender? If anyone could, seems like itd be Thibs.

RVF Book Club February: Julius Evola - Revolt Against the Modern World
07-01-2014 04:19 PM
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whoishe Offline
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RE: The NBA Thread
(07-01-2014 04:19 PM)Sonsowey Wrote:  Wonder if Thibs could make Melo a good defender? If anyone could, seems like itd be Thibs.
He won't make him a better defender. He (along with Noah and Gibson) will just hide his defensive weaknesses much, much better.

Btw, thumbs up for your post from previous page about Bosh long range shooting importance to Miami Heat success.

(07-01-2014 11:28 AM)Moma Wrote:  Marcin strikes me as a very solid Polish basketball player. In solid, I am referring to his physical prowess and overall toughness. I was in slight awe from him during the series Orlando vs Boston where Marquis Daniels got a concussion by bumping his head into Marcin's rib cage. How you concuss a professional athlete by merely sticking your arms in the air to take the charge??

When Dwight Howard concussed Glen 'Big Baby' Davis, it's because he was swinging those elbows of his as usual on a rebound.

Apparently Marcin's dad was a boxer so he grew up taking a few from the old man.
Yes, he was. Janusz Gortat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janusz_Gortat) was two-times Olympic bronze medalist in Boxing. He was also aften criticized for not making 100% out of his talent and was considered weak mentally for top amateur boxer. My uncle was saying really harsh words back in the day about his lack of heart. Somehow "MG13" is mch better in this department.
(This post was last modified: 07-01-2014 04:39 PM by whoishe.)
07-01-2014 04:24 PM
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MidWest Offline
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RE: The NBA Thread
(07-01-2014 04:19 PM)Sonsowey Wrote:  Wonder if Thibs could make Melo a good defender? If anyone could, seems like itd be Thibs.


I'm not sure if he'll make him a good defender or not. Thibs can make him give more effort on defense than anybody. But Thibs is such a great defensive mind that he can find ways to hide his weaknesses and make the others make up for it. It's what Thibs did with Carlos Boozer. Boozer is a terrible defender and he found a way to make it work and they still became the number 1 defense regardless. Whoishe is spot on.

I also remember when D-Rose was a rookie, he didn't play defense for shit, but over the years under Thibadeu he has become a decent defender, not good but decent. If any coach can make him put the effort to play defense, its Tom Thibadeu.

Here's a short video of Carmelo joking to Kobe about Thibs making him go for rebounds during the All-Star game a couple of years ago.



07-01-2014 04:45 PM
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CRR Offline
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RE: The NBA Thread
If Melo signs with Chicago, I'd put them as title favorites provided Rose is back and at least 80%.

Melo's a lot better all around than he's given credit for. His offensive instincts are solid, he's a decent passer (if he has teammates to pass to, which he doesn't in NYC) and is a solid rebounder.

Rose, Butler, Melo, Taj and Noah is a killer starting five. So long as they have a decent bench, they would be extremely tough to beat.
07-01-2014 05:02 PM
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MidWest Offline
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RE: The NBA Thread
^^^^ Also, who wouldn't want to play for a top 5 coach in Thibs.



07-01-2014 05:15 PM
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RE: The NBA Thread
(07-01-2014 05:02 PM)CRR Wrote:  If Melo signs with Chicago, I'd put them as title favorites provided Rose is back and at least 80%.

Melo's a lot better all around than he's given credit for. His offensive instincts are solid, he's a decent passer (if he has teammates to pass to, which he doesn't in NYC) and is a solid rebounder.

Rose, Butler, Melo, Taj and Noah is a killer starting five. So long as they have a decent bench, they would be extremely tough to beat.

D Rose will never be what he was that MVP season. Aside from Adrian Peterson no athletes recover from ACLs.
07-01-2014 06:50 PM
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whoishe Offline
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RE: The NBA Thread
Gortat stays with Wizards: 5 years/60 milions. Congrats for MG13.
07-01-2014 07:33 PM
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MidWest Offline
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RE: The NBA Thread
(07-01-2014 06:50 PM)jmourinho Wrote:  
(07-01-2014 05:02 PM)CRR Wrote:  If Melo signs with Chicago, I'd put them as title favorites provided Rose is back and at least 80%.

Melo's a lot better all around than he's given credit for. His offensive instincts are solid, he's a decent passer (if he has teammates to pass to, which he doesn't in NYC) and is a solid rebounder.

Rose, Butler, Melo, Taj and Noah is a killer starting five. So long as they have a decent bench, they would be extremely tough to beat.

D Rose will never be what he was that MVP season. Aside from Adrian Peterson no athletes recover from ACLs.

????? He already came back last year from an ACL and was destroying in Pre-Season. His second injury was a meniscus which was the same injury Russell Westbrook had. I think he's going to come back ready to roll.
(This post was last modified: 07-01-2014 07:50 PM by MidWest.)
07-01-2014 07:41 PM
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JayMillz Offline
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RE: The NBA Thread
So let's put the BIG 3 in perspective. Imagine these 3 pulling that trick:

   
07-03-2014 04:49 PM
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RE: The NBA Thread
(07-03-2014 04:49 PM)JayMillz Wrote:  So let's put the BIG 3 in perspective. Imagine these 3 pulling that trick:


How about this for perspective:

Magic came into the league with Kareem on his team who is a Top 3 GOAT.
Bird had McHale/Parish on his team who were pretty good players and McHale is regarded as one of the best post players of all-time.
MJ had Pippen/Grant for his first 3peat and then Pippen/Rodman/Kukoc for his 2nd 3peat.

I like how people say well Magic/Bird/MJ would never pull that. Newsflash: those 3 already played on loaded teams. Why would they leave their teams?
07-03-2014 05:12 PM
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RE: The NBA Thread
(07-03-2014 05:12 PM)TheSlayer Wrote:  
(07-03-2014 04:49 PM)JayMillz Wrote:  So let's put the BIG 3 in perspective. Imagine these 3 pulling that trick:


How about this for perspective:

Magic came into the league with Kareem on his team who is a Top 3 GOAT.
Bird had McHale/Parish on his team who were pretty good players and McHale is regarded as one of the best post players of all-time.
MJ had Pippen/Grant for his first 3peat and then Pippen/Rodman/Kukoc for his 2nd 3peat.

I like how people say well Magic/Bird/MJ would never pull that. Newsflash: those 3 already played on loaded teams. Why would they leave their teams?

I agree to an extent.

But MJ did stick it out with Pippen/Grant until they got better, so I'll give him credit for that.

However, year after year Lebron was handed a shit sandwich and expected to win a title. Who was the best player he played with in Cleveland? That he even got them to one finals is an impressive accomplishment.

For all the talk on what the Heat need or should do, what they really need is a rim protector. Bosh is asked to do too much. Defend the opposing team's best front court player, rebound, protect the rim, shoot threes. It's too much. Having a center who can take some of that burden away would allow Bosh to shift to PF, his true position, and not spread himself too thin.
(This post was last modified: 07-03-2014 05:34 PM by CRR.)
07-03-2014 05:33 PM
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TheSlayer Offline
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RE: The NBA Thread
(07-03-2014 05:33 PM)CRR Wrote:  
(07-03-2014 05:12 PM)TheSlayer Wrote:  
(07-03-2014 04:49 PM)JayMillz Wrote:  So let's put the BIG 3 in perspective. Imagine these 3 pulling that trick:


How about this for perspective:

Magic came into the league with Kareem on his team who is a Top 3 GOAT.
Bird had McHale/Parish on his team who were pretty good players and McHale is regarded as one of the best post players of all-time.
MJ had Pippen/Grant for his first 3peat and then Pippen/Rodman/Kukoc for his 2nd 3peat.

I like how people say well Magic/Bird/MJ would never pull that. Newsflash: those 3 already played on loaded teams. Why would they leave their teams?

I agree to an extent.

But MJ did stick it out with Pippen/Grant until they got better, so I'll give him credit for that.

However, year after year Lebron was handed a shit sandwich and expected to win a title. Who was the best player he played with in Cleveland? That he even got them to one finals is an impressive accomplishment.

For all the talk on what the Heat need or should do, what they really need is a rim protector. Bosh is asked to do too much. Defend the opposing team's best front court player, rebound, protect the rim, shoot threes. It's too much. Having a center who can take some of that burden away would allow Bosh to shift to PF, his true position, and not spread himself too thin.

Yeah, MJ wasn't as lucky as someone like Magic and to an extent Bird who both got drafted by good teams. He still had Pippen in his 4th season and from there Pippen got better each year ultimately peaking as a top 5 player in the league in his prime. Pippen was a legit MVP candidate when MJ left to play baseball. It's not like LeBron demanded a trade after 3-4 years to play on a better team, he stuck with the Cavs for 7 years and the best players they got him were Mo Williams, Jamison, Big Z was okay but nothing special and a broken down Shaq who could barely stay on the court there playing only 50 something games.

The point was people always say MJ/Bird/Magic would never do that and that makes me think do these people know how loaded those Bulls/Lakers/Celtics teams were. The 86-87 Celts are regarded as one of the best teams of all-time so are the 95-96 Bulls and the Lakers of the 80s are one of the most stacked teams of all-time. The equivalent of that would be LeBron already having Wade and/or Bosh on the Cavs and he still left.
07-03-2014 05:41 PM
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JayMillz Offline
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RE: The NBA Thread
(07-03-2014 05:12 PM)TheSlayer Wrote:  [I like how people say well Magic/Bird/MJ would never pull that. Newsflash: those 3 already played on loaded teams. Why would they leave their teams?

I'm not saying they would have never done it. I'm just imagining the team they would have had with these 3 on the same team in their prime.

I don't, however, think the MJ/Pippen/Grant team was stacked, especially considering the competition back then. The Bulls didn't make the finals for the first 6 years when Jordan got there and lost 3 straight times in the playoffs to the Bad Boy Pistons. Mike stuck it out though through Pippen's migraines and everything else and turned it around.
07-03-2014 05:42 PM
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RE: The NBA Thread
(07-03-2014 05:42 PM)JayMillz Wrote:  Mike stuck it out though through Pippen's migraines and everything else and turned it around.

More like it was a combination of the following factors:

PJ became the head coach in 89-90 and installed the triangle.
Pippen started developing into his own.
The Pistons started declining.
MJ became more of a team player in the triangle.
The team around MJ got better (which is the biggest reason here but doesn't make for a sexy narrative).

Sure he stuck around Pippen but he had a player with some real talent, something LeBron never did in Cleveland. The equivalent of that would be KD leaving OKC with RW already there.
07-03-2014 05:55 PM
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JayMillz Offline
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RE: The NBA Thread


07-03-2014 05:57 PM
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RE: The NBA Thread
(07-03-2014 05:55 PM)TheSlayer Wrote:  The team around MJ got better (which is the biggest reason here but doesn't make for a sexy narrative).

Of course the team got better, but MJ also got 6 finals MVPs. It wasn't like LA where Worthy and Alcindor got finals MVPs.
07-03-2014 06:00 PM
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JayMillz Offline
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RE: The NBA Thread
(07-03-2014 05:41 PM)TheSlayer Wrote:  Pippen was a legit MVP candidate when MJ left to play baseball.

MJ carried Pippen. When MJ left to play baseball, Pippen crumbled under the pressure. No coincidence that when MJ came back he led them to another 3-peat.



07-03-2014 06:09 PM
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RE: The NBA Thread
(07-03-2014 04:49 PM)JayMillz Wrote:  So let's put the BIG 3 in perspective. Imagine these 3 pulling that trick:


Imagine that big 3 vs. this big 3:



[Image: 1344846686_126255_1344848831_portadilla_normal.jpg]


That would be the matchup of the ages.
07-03-2014 06:10 PM
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RE: The NBA Thread
(07-03-2014 06:09 PM)JayMillz Wrote:  
(07-03-2014 05:41 PM)TheSlayer Wrote:  Pippen was a legit MVP candidate when MJ left to play baseball.

MJ carried Pippen. When MJ left to play baseball, Pippen crumbled under the pressure. No coincidence that when MJ came back he led them to another 3-peat.

Straw man argument. MJ was obviously the best player on that team but Pippen was a legit MVP candidate in 94, the Bulls won 55 games and came within one bad call of the ECF. That's not crumbling under pressure, that's being a legit good team.
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07-03-2014 06:12 PM
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JayMillz Offline
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RE: The NBA Thread
(07-03-2014 06:10 PM)MidWest Wrote:  Imagine that big 3 vs. this big 3:

I'd take the Dream Team.
07-03-2014 06:19 PM
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RE: The NBA Thread
(07-03-2014 06:09 PM)JayMillz Wrote:  
(07-03-2014 05:41 PM)TheSlayer Wrote:  Pippen was a legit MVP candidate when MJ left to play baseball.

MJ carried Pippen. When MJ left to play baseball, Pippen crumbled under the pressure. No coincidence that when MJ came back he led them to another 3-peat.




Right, because when you lose 2/5 of your entire team's scoring load for 2 seasons, getting your team to 1 game away from the eastern conference finals is "crumbling." Really fair comparison.

MJ wouldn't have won a single ring without pippen.

Pippen paved the way for the modern Lebron James - he did everything. He was arguably - scoring touches being equal - the second best player of his generation.
(This post was last modified: 07-03-2014 08:38 PM by Chewbacon.)
07-03-2014 08:37 PM
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RE: The NBA Thread
(07-03-2014 05:41 PM)TheSlayer Wrote:  Yeah, MJ wasn't as lucky as someone like Magic and to an extent Bird who both got drafted by good teams. He still had Pippen in his 4th season and from there Pippen got better each year ultimately peaking as a top 5 player in the league in his prime. Pippen was a legit MVP candidate when MJ left to play baseball. It's not like LeBron demanded a trade after 3-4 years to play on a better team, he stuck with the Cavs for 7 years and the best players they got him were Mo Williams, Jamison, Big Z was okay but nothing special and a broken down Shaq who could barely stay on the court there playing only 50 something games.

The point was people always say MJ/Bird/Magic would never do that and that makes me think do these people know how loaded those Bulls/Lakers/Celtics teams were. The 86-87 Celts are regarded as one of the best teams of all-time so are the 95-96 Bulls and the Lakers of the 80s are one of the most stacked teams of all-time. The equivalent of that would be LeBron already having Wade and/or Bosh on the Cavs and he still left.

Very much agree.

Magic and Bird were drafted by the two best organizations in the NBA, and surrounded immediately with high level talent. Same with Kobe, who wasn't even the best player on those three Laker championship teams.

Getting Pippen was a match made in heaven for both him and MJ. On any other team, Pippen would've developed too slowly, or had been asked to carry too much of a scoring burden. Jordan didn't need a McHale or Kareem (I think a post player who needed the ball would've gotten in his way) instead someone who could mimic his skills without getting in his way, in fact someone who would focus on being his running mate. He found the perfect complement. Someone who could do everything he could (mostly) while getting him the ball and providing stellar defensive intensity and probably most importantly, he wanted to be the second banana. There would be no Shaq/Kobe fighting over who was the alpha. Pippen going to the Bulls was the most mutually beneficial fit in NBA history.

Regarding Lebron, at the time of the decision, it did seem kinda shady for him to join a super team. But as pointed out, it fails to take into account how stacked previous championship teams had been. And if any superstar had a good reason to join such a team, it would be Lebron considering the awful teams he was asked to carry.
07-03-2014 11:27 PM
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RE: The NBA Thread
(07-03-2014 11:27 PM)CRR Wrote:  
(07-03-2014 05:41 PM)TheSlayer Wrote:  Yeah, MJ wasn't as lucky as someone like Magic and to an extent Bird who both got drafted by good teams. He still had Pippen in his 4th season and from there Pippen got better each year ultimately peaking as a top 5 player in the league in his prime. Pippen was a legit MVP candidate when MJ left to play baseball. It's not like LeBron demanded a trade after 3-4 years to play on a better team, he stuck with the Cavs for 7 years and the best players they got him were Mo Williams, Jamison, Big Z was okay but nothing special and a broken down Shaq who could barely stay on the court there playing only 50 something games.

The point was people always say MJ/Bird/Magic would never do that and that makes me think do these people know how loaded those Bulls/Lakers/Celtics teams were. The 86-87 Celts are regarded as one of the best teams of all-time so are the 95-96 Bulls and the Lakers of the 80s are one of the most stacked teams of all-time. The equivalent of that would be LeBron already having Wade and/or Bosh on the Cavs and he still left.

Very much agree.

Magic and Bird were drafted by the two best organizations in the NBA, and surrounded immediately with high level talent. Same with Kobe, who wasn't even the best player on those three Laker championship teams.

Getting Pippen was a match made in heaven for both him and MJ. On any other team, Pippen would've developed too slowly, or had been asked to carry too much of a scoring burden. Jordan didn't need a McHale or Kareem (I think a post player who needed the ball would've gotten in his way) instead someone who could mimic his skills without getting in his way, in fact someone who would focus on being his running mate. He found the perfect complement. Someone who could do everything he could (mostly) while getting him the ball and providing stellar defensive intensity and probably most importantly, he wanted to be the second banana. There would be no Shaq/Kobe fighting over who was the alpha. Pippen going to the Bulls was the most mutually beneficial fit in NBA history.

Regarding Lebron, at the time of the decision, it did seem kinda shady for him to join a super team. But as pointed out, it fails to take into account how stacked previous championship teams had been. And if any superstar had a good reason to join such a team, it would be Lebron considering the awful teams he was asked to carry.

Great post and analysis. Pippen was the perfect complement to MJ's alpha on that team. He was a ball handler, could run the offense, score when needed to, and was LeBron on defense before LeBron. He could legit guard 1-3s and made MJ's job a lot easier (which is an issue for Miami currently as LeBron has to guard the best player all the time). Pippen never got in MJ's way or wanted more shots. He let MJ lead them and worked as the glue guy. I remember reading from some players on those Bulls teams that MJ was the vocal leader who everyone was a little scared of and Pippen was the guy everyone confided in.

LeBron's idea to do the Decision was incredibly stupid and he should have left quietly but a lot of the hate about "teaming up with superstars or taking the easy way out" doesn't add up once you examine the dynasties of the past. The thing is LeBron was in a lose-lose situation. If he stayed "loyal" in Cleveland and the front-office was unable to get him the right teammates people would call him "choker" and "ringless" etc. If he left (which he did) then the narrative is he can't win on his own. Well, duh. Nobody wins on their own.
07-03-2014 11:41 PM
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