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5x5 or 3x10 or does it even matter?
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bojangles Offline
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Post: #26
RE: 5x5 or 3x10 or does it even matter?
(04-02-2013 05:22 AM)Peregrine Wrote:  Not a personal trainer, but I'll throw my hat in for Rippetoe and Stronglifts. I'm using the latter to rebuild after a long injury hiatus. It's quite good for a beginner. Mehdi's point is "you're increasing the weights every workout, so that's incontrovertible proof that you're getting stronger". The theory's not the key though. It's like game. Instead of worrying about the perfect opener, go approach. So instead of worrying about the perfect set#xrep#, pick a system and go for it (with emphasis on proper form). Your commitment to lifting is more important.

bojangles Wrote:what should I do to get lean? will 5x5 help?

Trying to lose fat or muscle? For fat loss, lifting's great. 5x5 will help. To lose muscle, cardio.

thats sweet, I'm not even fat, I'm trying to get ripped, I've been doing 5x5 after a 2 month hiatus. I have about 15/16% fat trying to get down to 10% or less.

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04-02-2013 09:45 AM
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Ryre Offline
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Post: #27
RE: 5x5 or 3x10 or does it even matter?
(04-01-2013 10:26 PM)Sonsowey Wrote:  I had read several places of a basic program to bulk up of 5x5 of the heaviest weight you can do, focusing on basic compound exercises like squats, deadlifts, rows, bench, shoulder press, etc.

I've started doing this and it gets me dead tired very quickly. Doing absolutely as much as I can, of course, is exhausting.

The idea of 5X5 isn't to go balls-out on every set. Pick a weight, do your five sets. Choose a weight where you get something like 5,5,5,4,3. When you can get 5x5, add weight. On most if not all sets you should leave a rep or two in the tank. This is a good program for adding strength and, if you eat, size.

More info here:

http://www.fourhourworkweek.com/blog/200...our-lifts/

(Yes, it's a Tim Ferris link, but it isn't him writing, it's a couple of Russian powerlifters. I used the advice and vouch for it.)
04-02-2013 10:35 AM
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relo Offline
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Post: #28
RE: 5x5 or 3x10 or does it even matter?
(04-02-2013 08:37 AM)Therapsid Wrote:  
(04-02-2013 08:19 AM)billbudsocket Wrote:  
(04-02-2013 12:07 AM)Jaylow Wrote:  You are not gaining muscle doing 20 reps of anything, that is more for endurance. You also have to be careful to make sure your back stays straight through all the reps or you can injure yourself when doing squats or deads like this. Best muscle gain from compounds is the 5 rep range and to go as heavy as possible, you can't go heavy with 20 reps.

Phhhhhht. Speak for yourself please.

No, he speaks for everyone. If you're doing 20 reps, you're not going heavy enough to make significant muscle gains. Not even close.

Now, that's fine if you're just maintaining what you have and want to lean down, get some more muscle tone, and build endurance.

Is this from personal experiance? Do you have any data or evidence for this? Im not saying you're wrong but there is 1000 million internet alpha's out there throwing around there opinions like they're facts. Data is nice.

On the leangains website, there is one study showing higher rep squats to failure resulted in more protein synthysis than low rep to failure, and a lot of legit dudes saying high rep leg work seemed very beneficial.

http://www.leangains.com/2010/08/high-re...-gain.html
(This post was last modified: 04-02-2013 11:18 AM by relo.)
04-02-2013 11:12 AM
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scorpion Offline
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Post: #29
RE: 5x5 or 3x10 or does it even matter?
Personally, I've found that 5 rep sets are optimal for deadlifts and overhead press and 10-20 rep sets are optimal for squats. Lately I've been mixing up 5 rep and 20 rep squat sets on leg day. I'll warm up then do two heavy sets of my 5 rep max, then drop the weight down a bit and do two sets of 20 reps. If you've never done 20 rep squats before you should try them. They're absolutely brutal and will wipe you out like nothing else you've ever done.

"For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.” - Romans 8:18
04-02-2013 11:16 AM
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hazara Offline
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Post: #30
RE: 5x5 or 3x10 or does it even matter?
Relo,

Mark Rippetoe, Charles Polinquin, and Dante Trudel (Doggcrapp) advocate 20 rep squats in some form or another.
04-02-2013 11:41 AM
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Hades Offline
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Post: #31
RE: 5x5 or 3x10 or does it even matter?
(04-02-2013 08:37 AM)Therapsid Wrote:  
(04-02-2013 08:19 AM)billbudsocket Wrote:  
(04-02-2013 12:07 AM)Jaylow Wrote:  You are not gaining muscle doing 20 reps of anything, that is more for endurance. You also have to be careful to make sure your back stays straight through all the reps or you can injure yourself when doing squats or deads like this. Best muscle gain from compounds is the 5 rep range and to go as heavy as possible, you can't go heavy with 20 reps.

Phhhhhht. Speak for yourself please.

No, he speaks for everyone. If you're doing 20 reps, you're not going heavy enough to make significant muscle gains. Not even close.

Now, that's fine if you're just maintaining what you have and want to lean down, get some more muscle tone, and build endurance.

20 rep squats is the original mass gaining program. Lots of skinny kids have put on 40 pounds of muscle on little more than 20 rep squats.
(This post was last modified: 04-02-2013 12:17 PM by Hades.)
04-02-2013 12:17 PM
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Hannibal Offline
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Post: #32
RE: 5x5 or 3x10 or does it even matter?
(04-02-2013 08:37 AM)Therapsid Wrote:  
(04-02-2013 08:19 AM)billbudsocket Wrote:  
(04-02-2013 12:07 AM)Jaylow Wrote:  You are not gaining muscle doing 20 reps of anything, that is more for endurance. You also have to be careful to make sure your back stays straight through all the reps or you can injure yourself when doing squats or deads like this. Best muscle gain from compounds is the 5 rep range and to go as heavy as possible, you can't go heavy with 20 reps.

Phhhhhht. Speak for yourself please.

No, he speaks for everyone. If you're doing 20 reps, you're not going heavy enough to make significant muscle gains. Not even close.

Now, that's fine if you're just maintaining what you have and want to lean down, get some more muscle tone, and build endurance.

The original "Super Squats" program has you doing your 10 rep max for 20 reps. This isn't a program where if you can squat 315, you pick 95 lbs and you do cardio and conditioning for the next 5 minutes.

Basically, you get under that barbell and you rep out as many squats as you can. Most people will get to anywhere from 8 to 12 reps doing that.

After that, you keep the barbell on your back and you take breaths between reps. That's why they're called "breathing squats".

You still get a benefit from having the barbell on your back, regardless of whether or not you're squatting.

If you're doing a proper amount of weight, it could take as long as 10-15 minutes to finish the set. Legs under any kind of stress like that will grow. Putting on 15-30 lbs of muscle in 6 weeks was not unheard of in this program, it was the old school mass and strength building program for a long, long time.

If you're willing to go through with it, it's easily one of the quickest ways to pack on muscle short of steroids.

http://www.amazon.com/Super-Squats-Pound...0926888005

(04-02-2013 11:41 AM)hazara Wrote:  Relo,

Mark Rippetoe, Charles Polinquin, and Dante Trudel (Doggcrapp) advocate 20 rep squats in some form or another.

Brooks Kubik was a huge fan of 20 rep squats, as well. At the beginning of every one of his books, he'd put in at least 5 success stories to get you all amped up for training. There were more than a few stories that involved the 20 rep squat program.
(This post was last modified: 04-02-2013 12:22 PM by Hannibal.)
04-02-2013 12:18 PM
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Hannibal Offline
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Post: #33
RE: 5x5 or 3x10 or does it even matter?
To answer the OP, here's some general rules of thumb.

It's generally a good idea to never go to failure. That doesn't mean you should be scared to train hard, just know that if you completely and utterly burn yourself out on a lift, you're going to need more time to recover before you can do it again. Most folks claim that it's usually best to never go to failure because you can then pack on more volume with another set. I don't like going to failure because it's a recipe for soreness.

Supposedly, the upper body recovers faster between sets and workouts because it doesn't have nearly as much muscle as the lower body and there's a larger concentration of the central nervous system in the upper body, which further dissipates the stress of workouts. I was reading Poliquin's book the other day and his point was that 300 bicep curls is still a lot less than 100 squats (or something along those lines).

The more reps you do, the fewer sets you need to do. If you're doing singles, you could probably get away with as many as 20 sets. If you're doing triples, 8-12 sets is good. If you go up to, say, 6-12 reps, you could probably do anywhere from 1 to 4 sets and still make some gains.

Some people can make a lot of hypertrophy gains by keeping the reps low and the sets fairly high. These folks tend to have a higher proportion of the fast twitch muscle fiber. Most will need more reps and fewer sets for hypertrophy. Maximal strength can be achieved with anywhere from 1-5 sets. You won't get much bigger, but you'll get a lot stronger if you follow that sort of rep scheme.
04-02-2013 12:51 PM
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Post: #34
RE: 5x5 or 3x10 or does it even matter?
(04-02-2013 09:22 AM)The Pirate Wrote:  The guy that helped me get in shape was this dude: http://scoobysworkshop.com/

He is the real deal. He keeps it simple...AND, he is not sponsored and is trying to sell you "magic overnight sollutions" Scooby is a freakin hero!!!

Yeah, thumbs up for Scooby.
04-02-2013 04:33 PM
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Post: #35
RE: 5x5 or 3x10 or does it even matter?
There are a couple of thing I would like to address when it comes to rep range and the amount of sets you plan on using. First off 5x5 is an excellent program and I have used 3x10 with success in the past. Some other rep ranges that have worked for me and my friends include 10x3, 3x3,4x4, 3x5, 4x8, 8x8, 10x10, heavy singles, doubles, triples, 5/3/1, 15, 20, and 30 rep squat sets and everything in between. The truth of the matter is you need to find a rep range that you enjoy doing and is challenging for you. Sure we can get into a scientific debate about how lower reps are better for neural efficiency and how higher reps only lead to sarcoplasmic hypertrophy but that would be something else all together. What I find to be more important than the sets and reps is your exercise selection. if all you are doing is leg extentions, curls and lateral raises you wont get much progress. Most people could reach all their fitness goals with just squats (front and or back), deadlifts (all variations are great), a vertical press (I like standing overhead barbell press and push press) a non vertical press (bench or dips are great) and a Pull (Some sort of row or Pullup/Chinup) at any of the above set and rep ranges I listed.

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04-02-2013 05:45 PM
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Post: #36
RE: 5x5 or 3x10 or does it even matter?
(04-02-2013 01:13 AM)Rutting Elephant Wrote:  Arnold has suggested to go for 50 reps of each exercise. Also have often read that 8-12 reps is standard. Low rep stuff can be worked in later. I don't see why a beginner should follow a micromanaged routine; just go with that.

Arnold did this because he had a very hard time (relative, I know) getting his quads to grow to match the rest of his body. He speaks about this at length.
04-03-2013 12:33 AM
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Hades Offline
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Post: #37
RE: 5x5 or 3x10 or does it even matter?
That was an interesting part of the book. He'd talk about hanging out with his lifting buddies, getting drunk in the woods, and doing death sets of squats for 10 hours or more with barbells they brought to their cookouts. Cool stuff.
04-03-2013 12:37 AM
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AlbertoDelMuerto Offline
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Post: #38
RE: 5x5 or 3x10 or does it even matter?
I think 5x5 makes you stronger, not so much bigger, at least I didn't get bigger from doing it. BTW Arnold used to do more than 15 reps for triceps!
(This post was last modified: 04-03-2013 12:43 AM by AlbertoDelMuerto.)
04-03-2013 12:42 AM
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OGNorCal707 Offline
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Post: #39
RE: 5x5 or 3x10 or does it even matter?
(04-03-2013 12:33 AM)CaP7 Wrote:  
(04-02-2013 01:13 AM)Rutting Elephant Wrote:  Arnold has suggested to go for 50 reps of each exercise. Also have often read that 8-12 reps is standard. Low rep stuff can be worked in later. I don't see why a beginner should follow a micromanaged routine; just go with that.

Arnold did this because he had a very hard time (relative, I know) getting his quads to grow to match the rest of his body. He speaks about this at length.


Arnold also used a lot of steroids. Guys that are juicing can do way more sets and reps, guys that are natural shouldn't do as much, and need more recovery time.
04-03-2013 01:11 AM
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hazara Offline
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Post: #40
RE: 5x5 or 3x10 or does it even matter?
do you have any links to Arnolds steroid regimen over the years? i heard he mostly used oral dbols
04-03-2013 01:31 AM
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Jaylow Offline
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Post: #41
RE: 5x5 or 3x10 or does it even matter?
Theres about 5000 dudes on BB.com with 6packs and big muscles doing 5 reps with max weight for compounds. I trust a huge sample size over steroid users that I cannot relate to. Isolation movements like bicep curls are more person to person and can see gains with 5 reps to 20 reps.

Quote:20 rep squats is the original mass gaining program. Lots of skinny kids have put on 40 pounds of muscle on little more than 20 rep squats.

Ridiculous. You know how hard it takes to gain even 1 pound of pure muscle in a month? Who wrote this original mass gain program and don't you think the newer version is better than the outdated version? Starting strength combined with a couple iso exercises is what newbies should be doing.

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(This post was last modified: 04-03-2013 01:38 AM by Jaylow.)
04-03-2013 01:37 AM
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