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Russian language: no more bullshit
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PeruLover12 Offline
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Post: #426
RE: Russian language: no more bullshit
(06-05-2016 03:34 AM)samsamsam Wrote:  Совсем не важно. Я ему прекрасно понял и это что самая главное.

Maybe it took me a little bit (a minute of processing) - but a small humble brag - I got the gist of both of those sentences! Google translation of course to confirm. There were a couple of words I didn't understand but in context it makes sense. Some of the words were not in forms I was super familiar with and just had to sound them out and match what was in my vocabulary.* Whether I suck or not - I will take this as a some encouragement lol.

I don't think anyone expects perfection from a non native speaker - we have all met non native speakers in our countries and we understand and get along with them just fine.

*I do notice that when I hear words that I either didn't catch the whole word or it is unfamiliar I do try to squeeze them into my limited vocab. Sometimes, it works and sometimes I am way off Laugh

Well if you could understand what I wrote, even with a little time for processing then I would put you in the top 10 foreign Russian speakers I have met. Most people I meet in the FSU cannot, even after living there for years, introduce themselves or order a simple meal in a restaurant.

You're on the right path Sam, stick with it as it will reward you over and over down the line.

BTW - I was chatting to the girl we both know in Kiev last night on the phone. Always makes me laugh that she calls you SamSam and actually thinks it's your real name.
(This post was last modified: 06-05-2016 05:59 AM by PeruLover12.)
06-05-2016 05:56 AM
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samsamsam Offline
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Post: #427
RE: Russian language: no more bullshit
(06-05-2016 05:56 AM)The Ligurian Wrote:  I would put you in the top 10 foreign Russian speakers I have met.

Then I didn't understand it - no way, at this point - I am in close to the Top 10. Or top 10000.

And your pep talk last time when I was with Rocha crushed my confidence - ***starts looking for the middle finger emoticon*** Laugh

That is funny the samsam thing.

Fate whispers to the warrior, "You cannot withstand the storm." And the warrior whispers back, "I am the storm."

Women and children can be careless, but not men - Don Corleone

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(This post was last modified: 06-05-2016 03:01 PM by samsamsam.)
06-05-2016 02:52 PM
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samsamsam Offline
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Post: #428
RE: Russian language: no more bullshit
(06-05-2016 04:10 AM)fighter Wrote:  
(06-05-2016 03:34 AM)samsamsam Wrote:  
(06-05-2016 02:41 AM)369eyedea Wrote:  [quote='The Ligurian' pid='1317619' dateline='1465110464']

Один из лучших вещей я читал здесь недавно. Ты молодец братушка! что-то подобного случилось со мной.

Совсем не важно. Я ему прекрасно понял и это что самая главное.

Maybe it took me a little bit (a minute of processing) - but a small humble brag - I got the gist of both of those sentences! Google translation of course to confirm. There were a couple of words I didn't understand but in context it makes sense. Some of the words were not in forms I was super familiar with and just had to sound them out and match what was in my vocabulary.* Whether I suck or not - I will take this as a some encouragement lol.

I don't think anyone expects perfection from a non native speaker - we have all met non native speakers in our countries and we understand and get along with them just fine.

*I do notice that when I hear words that I either didn't catch the whole word or it is unfamiliar I do try to squeeze them into my limited vocab. Sometimes, it works and sometimes I am way off Laugh

If I wasn't a native speaker, I would never think of learning Russian. The grammar is too complicated and the writing is different than speaking.

Hey, thanks for the encouragement. After all this forum is about helping guys.

Are you really a fighter or just an arguer?

Fate whispers to the warrior, "You cannot withstand the storm." And the warrior whispers back, "I am the storm."

Women and children can be careless, but not men - Don Corleone

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(This post was last modified: 06-05-2016 03:00 PM by samsamsam.)
06-05-2016 03:00 PM
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will228 Offline
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Post: #429
RE: Russian language: no more bullshit
Я учусь русский язык уже несколько месяцев и считаю, что я добился среднего уровня. Я готов разговаривать с учащимися тоже среднего уровня по-скайп, думаю, что это будет увлекательная возможность, которая наверняка даже мотивирует.
06-05-2016 03:12 PM
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Post: #430
RE: Russian language: no more bullshit
Russian grammar is complicated but after some dedicated study it makes sense. What makes it hard IMO is the unfortunate combination of complex grammar, difficult pronunciation, strange stress conventions, and non-Latin alphabet all wrapped up into the same package. I studied Russian for a year in college, then ended up spending a year self-studying Slovak (similar to Czech) which has slightly easier though very similar grammar to Russian, consistent stress rules, and is written in the Latin alphabet. This allowed me to gain a more natural and fluid comprehension of the Slavic linguistic structure—when I read Russian now, it's vocab, not grammar, that's my main obstacle.

(06-05-2016 03:12 PM)will228 Wrote:  Я учусь русский язык уже несколько месяцев и считаю, что я добился среднего уровня. Я готов разговаривать с учащимися тоже среднего уровня по-скайп, думаю, что это будет увлекательная возможность, которая наверняка даже мотивирует.
I can understand this post and don't see any obvious grammar mistakes, so good job.
(This post was last modified: 06-05-2016 03:24 PM by Lunostrelki.)
06-05-2016 03:18 PM
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fighter Offline
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Post: #431
RE: Russian language: no more bullshit
(06-05-2016 03:00 PM)samsamsam Wrote:  
(06-05-2016 04:10 AM)fighter Wrote:  
(06-05-2016 03:34 AM)samsamsam Wrote:  
(06-05-2016 02:41 AM)369eyedea Wrote:  [quote='The Ligurian' pid='1317619' dateline='1465110464']

Один из лучших вещей я читал здесь недавно. Ты молодец братушка! что-то подобного случилось со мной.

Совсем не важно. Я ему прекрасно понял и это что самая главное.

Maybe it took me a little bit (a minute of processing) - but a small humble brag - I got the gist of both of those sentences! Google translation of course to confirm. There were a couple of words I didn't understand but in context it makes sense. Some of the words were not in forms I was super familiar with and just had to sound them out and match what was in my vocabulary.* Whether I suck or not - I will take this as a some encouragement lol.

I don't think anyone expects perfection from a non native speaker - we have all met non native speakers in our countries and we understand and get along with them just fine.

*I do notice that when I hear words that I either didn't catch the whole word or it is unfamiliar I do try to squeeze them into my limited vocab. Sometimes, it works and sometimes I am way off Laugh

If I wasn't a native speaker, I would never think of learning Russian. The grammar is too complicated and the writing is different than speaking.

Hey, thanks for the encouragement. After all this forum is about helping guys.

Are you really a fighter or just an arguer?

You got it wrong, if a Chinese speaker said the same about the Chinese language, would you react the same way?

I'm on this thread to actually help people if they have any questions about the language. I wish someone would do the same and correct my English.
06-05-2016 04:31 PM
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samsamsam Offline
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Post: #432
RE: Russian language: no more bullshit
Your post read like if you are not a native speaker don't bother learning it. Which sounds a bit weird but that was how I read it.

But think about it from my perspective. I'm trying to learn a language that is pretty complicated. And here is a native speaker saying he wouldn't bother with the grammar unless he was a native speaker which you are claiming that you are. So I took it as why are you bothering with it.

Now if you are saying that you are not fully versed on the nuances of the English language then I might be able to understand where you are coming from. But your post didn't have much encouragement. As for understanding the challenges of the language, I face them everyday because not a day goes by when I am not working with the language. It doesn't help me much to hear from a native speaker about what I know is a challenging language. Being helpful would be dropping some super secret language shortcuts. Or a list of critical words to know vs not so critical ones.

ponyal?

Fate whispers to the warrior, "You cannot withstand the storm." And the warrior whispers back, "I am the storm."

Women and children can be careless, but not men - Don Corleone

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(This post was last modified: 06-05-2016 04:44 PM by samsamsam.)
06-05-2016 04:39 PM
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Lermontov Offline
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Post: #433
RE: Russian language: no more bullshit
Hi everyone. This is my first post. I'm glad to have found this interesting thread about russian language. I wanted to share my experience about learning it. My mother tongue is a romance language. I have been studying russian for six years now and more seriously (everyday) for the last three years. My schedule is very busy with little free time but with dedication I managed to attain a B2 level (I have not taken an official examination). I was in Russia recently for some weeks and was able to conversate freely with friends, acquaintances and new people I'd meet. The one time where I most struggle to express myself as in my mother tongue was when I was trying to explain my view on the financial markets, mutual funds and exchange-traded funds. I may post about my trip in another thread. As a black man, I had a wonderful time in Russia and only spoke in russian, including on the phone.

I started with the Assimil method and used a modified version of the shadowing technique that the american linguist Alexander Arguelles advocates (you can google him). Every time I was getting to class, to work, doing household chores, exercising or else, I'd be listening to the lessons and repeating aloud (or whispering when in public). When you do shadowing every day, the words are going to stick to your mind and you'll remember them permanently at some point. Peer-reviewed scientific articles have demonstrated that if you repeat aloud something that you read or hear, the retention will be greater.

Assimil offers great grammar explanations and you have the translation of each lesson with the audio. You can buy it in different languages depending of your mother tongue.

When I completed half of the lessons, I started reading and doing exercises with Schaum's Russian Grammar. I think that this is one of the best grammar book out there. Some people think that grammar is not that important and everything will become natural. I respect their opinion but I don't agree. Grammar is a key that helps you understand the laws and rules of a language. By knowing these rules, language learning becomes easier, faster and allows you to formulate sentences that you might not have heard before, but you know are correct. I believe that by organizing language into rules and patterns, grammar helps you to make language clear, understandable and simple. For a non-slavic native speaker, I think all of this is even more important when learning a language such as russian. Of course, doing grammar exercises is better then just reading a grammar book. It is an active process and you'll learn more. After doing exercises and correcting my mistakes, I'd read the chapter related. Later on I used The big silver book of russian verbs by Franke. Although not essential, I like that book since it gives you many concrete examples for a lot of verbs. It explains you what prepositions/cases to use with them.

After that I continued ''shadowing'' with tales, songs, books I downloaded on the internet. I would read the text at night, search in the dictionary for new words and write them down in a notebook. When something wasn't clear grammatically, I would have recourse to Schaum's Russian Grammar.

Then, I started to go to russian meetings/events in my city, etc. I'm lucky enough to live a big city with a significant russophone community. I made some russian-speaking friends.

I found videos on Youtube with subtitles. As mentioned on this thread, Starmedia is a great channel. Golden. The english and russian subtitles match perfectly the audio. This is not always the case with movies with subtitles. I also started to watch contemporary and soviet movies.

I shadowed the audio of Ultimate russian advanced by Living language and read the whole book. Great resource. Then, I started to read some short stories with bilingual books, for example, Russian stories: a dual-language book edited by Gleb Struve. Classical litterature like this book will not help you that much if your sole goal is to speak but I like russian litterature.

Then I started to take lessons focused on conversation with a native russian speaker two hours a week. She had no formal teacher training. We just talked about different subjects and she would correct my mistakes. Sometimes she would write down some useful words or expressions for me if they came up during our conversations. I later started to do more lessons on italki. I think it is not productive to take lessons if you cannot already conversate at a basic level. I bought, shadowed and read another advanced assimil method but I don't think it is available in english yet.

So this was the way I did it. About 10 minutes to one hour EVERYDAY. Sometimes more with shadowing. I still do today. I've never lived in a russian-speaking country. Now I watch russian channels/bloggers/prankers on youtube, read some novels and the news on the internet (especially lenta.ru and meduza.io), hang out at russian events and with friends, etc. I still make mistakes and will struggle if the subject of the conversation becomes technical.

Here is a small text in russian that I wrote some time ago on how I learned russian if you want some practice :-)

Часто люди спрашивают у меня о том, как я выучил русский язык. В начале, я использовал книгу (Assimil), в которой есть сто уроков на русском с переводами на родной язык. Большинство уроков - обычные разговоры между людьми. Со временем, уроки становятся труднее и длиннее. В каждом уроке, есть несколько объяснении грамматики. К тому же, есть записи и можно послушать все уроки. Поскольку у меня мало времени, когда я добрался до работы, до университета и возвращался домой, то я слушал записи и также повторял все шепотом. Я брал пример с лингвиста Alexander Arguelles, который рекомендует этот метод. Я заметил, что таким образом гораздо легче запомнить новые слова. Это тоже хорошо для того, чтобы практиковать и увеличивать произношение. В то же время, я читал и делал упражнения грамматики в книге "Schaum's russian grammar." До сих пор делаю упражнения и перечитываю эту книгу когда что-нибудь непонятно.Потихоньку, я начал слушать сказки со совпадающими текстами. Я нашел в Youtube видео со субтитрами. Записывал новые слава и перечитывал их иногда. Я начал посещать русскоязычные мероприятия в моем городе и заговорил с трудностью. Я читаю новости на русском и смотрю фильмы. В последние месяцы, я занимаюсь с репетитором в моем городе. Встречаемся в кафе. До этого, я уже мог достаточно бегло говорить, но мне нужна практика. Продолжаю делать много ошибок.
(This post was last modified: 06-05-2016 05:06 PM by Lermontov.)
06-05-2016 05:03 PM
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fighter Offline
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Post: #434
RE: Russian language: no more bullshit
I know it sounds bad, but I've never heard a native English speaker that can speak a proper Russian, mainly because of the accent, so I suggest to work on the accent or the chicks will just laugh, they can be very mean. No shortcuts bratan.
06-05-2016 05:14 PM
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PeruLover12 Offline
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Post: #435
RE: Russian language: no more bullshit
(06-05-2016 05:14 PM)fighter Wrote:  I know it sounds bad, but I've never heard a native English speaker that can speak a proper Russian, mainly because of the accent, so I suggest to work on the accent or the chicks will just laugh, they can be very mean. No shortcuts bratan.

Lol.

Troll
06-05-2016 08:56 PM
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PeruLover12 Offline
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Post: #436
RE: Russian language: no more bullshit
(06-05-2016 02:52 PM)samsamsam Wrote:  And your pep talk last time when I was with Rocha crushed my confidence - ***starts looking for the middle finger emoticon*** Laugh

I have no recollection of that at all to be honest.

Was it as confidence crushing as one of Fighter's posts? Rolleyes
06-05-2016 09:06 PM
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Rocha Offline
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Post: #437
RE: Russian language: no more bullshit
(06-05-2016 08:56 PM)The Ligurian Wrote:  
(06-05-2016 05:14 PM)fighter Wrote:  I know it sounds bad, but I've never heard a native English speaker that can speak a proper Russian, mainly because of the accent, so I suggest to work on the accent or the chicks will just laugh, they can be very mean. No shortcuts bratan.

Lol.

Troll

Well, fighter has a point razz

Graham accent is awesome, I bet girls dig it.



(This post was last modified: 06-05-2016 09:50 PM by Rocha.)
06-05-2016 09:49 PM
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Rocha Offline
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Post: #438
RE: Russian language: no more bullshit
(06-05-2016 09:06 PM)The Ligurian Wrote:  
(06-05-2016 02:52 PM)samsamsam Wrote:  And your pep talk last time when I was with Rocha crushed my confidence - ***starts looking for the middle finger emoticon*** Laugh

I have no recollection of that at all to be honest.

Was it as confidence crushing as one of Fighter's posts? Rolleyes

I think it was when we spoke in Russian by phone the other day. Samsamsam was there in my apartment drinking vodka shots with ogurets i pomidori, he emptied my stock...
(This post was last modified: 06-05-2016 10:08 PM by Rocha.)
06-05-2016 10:06 PM
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samsamsam Offline
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Post: #439
RE: Russian language: no more bullshit
(06-05-2016 10:06 PM)Rocha Wrote:  
(06-05-2016 09:06 PM)The Ligurian Wrote:  
(06-05-2016 02:52 PM)samsamsam Wrote:  And your pep talk last time when I was with Rocha crushed my confidence - ***starts looking for the middle finger emoticon*** Laugh

I have no recollection of that at all to be honest.

Was it as confidence crushing as one of Fighter's posts? Rolleyes

I think it was when we spoke in Russian by phone the other day. Samsamsam was there in my apartment drinking vodka shots with ogurets i pomidori, he emptied my stock...

You guys are killing me Laugh

Now I am a shitty Russian speaking, alcohol stealing alcoholic with poor boxing skills.

Yes, I am very easily defeated. I am quitting Russian now. Where is the thread eject button?

Fighter is right, anyone with an English accent can never speak Russian well. Also anyone who likes MMA cannot speak Russian well either.


On a serious note, Lermontov nice first post. I don't think it is lost on anyone the challenges of learning Russian as compared to some other languages. I have some exposure to romance languages so it helped a little and a decent number of English words have found there way into Russian, maybe with just slightly different pronunciations. But a post like Lermontov's shows the effort and dedication that it might take to get to the point of being able to communicate in Russian. Some day when I feel like I am able to function reasonably well in Russian only - I hope to share a mini datasheet on what I did, even though we do not all learn the same way.

My priorities are conversation first, reading comprehension second, and writing last.

Fate whispers to the warrior, "You cannot withstand the storm." And the warrior whispers back, "I am the storm."

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(This post was last modified: 06-06-2016 12:50 AM by samsamsam.)
06-06-2016 12:42 AM
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scrambled Offline
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Post: #440
RE: Russian language: no more bullshit
(06-05-2016 05:14 PM)fighter Wrote:  I know it sounds bad, but I've never heard a native English speaker that can speak a proper Russian, mainly because of the accent, so I suggest to work on the accent or the chicks will just laugh, they can be very mean. No shortcuts bratan.


Quote:They know theirs is a hard language and do not expect you to speak it. This means that even modest efforts to communicate in Russian will be welcomed with enthusiasm and unlimited forgiveness for whatever mistakes you might make. This attitude applies to Russians in their country but also when they are travelling.

If you travel to Russia, I strongly encourage you learn as much Russian as you can. Even a small number of words will prove extremely useful unless you wish to be remain in your hotel or gesture like a pantomine whenever you want something.

Doing business in Russia or with Russians abroad is greatly helped if you speak their language. You do not have to be Russian to benefit from increased trust and better contact through your knowledge of the language. Quite the opposite, Russians usually will trust more a foreigner than a fellow Russian! And if they can speak only Russian, they will rather deal with you than somebody else that they could address only through an interpreter.
link
(This post was last modified: 06-06-2016 01:18 PM by scrambled.)
06-06-2016 01:08 PM
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Post: #441
RE: Russian language: no more bullshit
(06-06-2016 01:08 PM)scrambled Wrote:  link

From the link.

I am doing it for the chic factor:

Speaking Russian fluently is as chic as can be, especially in Western Europe. Russian has the reputation of being very hard (see below) and used to be a subversive language, spoken by revolutionaries and exiled noblemen. Many people in the West do not understand how Russia used to function, and have no clue how it works today. People who speak Russian tend to become clouded with an aura of shade and mystery. If you doubt that speaking Russian is chic, try yelling orders in your cellphone in a restaurant.

Actually more the chick factor.

Fate whispers to the warrior, "You cannot withstand the storm." And the warrior whispers back, "I am the storm."

Women and children can be careless, but not men - Don Corleone

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(This post was last modified: 06-06-2016 01:17 PM by samsamsam.)
06-06-2016 01:12 PM
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Constitution45 Offline
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Post: #442
RE: Russian language: no more bullshit
I don't think it's bad, when I speak russian with an english accent, people in moscow just think its funny. Take in mind that there are numerous english accents as well.
06-07-2016 01:39 PM
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Krivo Offline
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Post: #443
RE: Russian language: no more bullshit
What is the connotation of "придурки" (pridurki)? Is it closest to jerk, idiot, asshole, or some other insult?
07-08-2016 07:32 PM
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Lermontov Offline
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Post: #444
RE: Russian language: no more bullshit
Fool, moron, imbecile, dickhead
07-09-2016 09:59 AM
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JeanJaq Offline
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Post: #445
RE: Russian language: no more bullshit
Some words that even Russian women who lived for many years in a foreign country, speaking that foreign language like a native speaker will still spit it out in Russian language (not because they dont know how to say it in that foreign language but because the Russian term comes out from her mouth faster than its translation, like a reflex): "Больно" (When after doing her pussy you ask for the popka and she replies negatively with "Больно", but some allow it anyway afterwards Blush) followed by a cute face of soft fear, but almost smiling. Another Russian word I repeatedly hear even while talking with Russian English/French female teachers: "но" (When saying something is ok BUT...) followed by a face of agreeing "but" not 100%. And during the sex the famous "да" or a "Oi" (I dont know how to write this in Russian in English it would be the infamous Ohhhhh), I love when they moan in Russian.
And of course some forget to pronounce the H the right way (right in the sense of the specific foreign language) even after years living in that specific country, so in a hurry it ends up like Gitler, Alcogol, Getero etc. But this mistake is imo much rarer than the "but" mistake I described above.
Oi, I love the Ruski Iesik! Da! I bez ho :-)

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(This post was last modified: 07-11-2016 03:39 AM by JeanJaq.)
07-11-2016 03:35 AM
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Post: #446
RE: Russian language: no more bullshit
How much practice dyou guys do per week on average?
07-20-2016 05:48 AM
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Nascimento Offline
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Post: #447
RE: Russian language: no more bullshit
(05-21-2016 11:23 AM)The Ligurian Wrote:  About three years ago after a trip to Kharkov I decided to get serious about learning Russian. I knew the level I wanted to get to with it. Finally after hundreds of hours of self study, watching Russian films and visiting FSU countries I have reached the level I aspired to.

In Novosibirsk I am repeatedly having people think I am Russian after talking to me. Today my friend was on a date with a girl we met last night in the street. She asked him how come he was traveling with a Russian guy. He explained that I was English. The barman in a local pub asked me if I had spent time abroad since I spoke Russian with an accent. I had to explain that I was in no way Russian. I guess that means I am now as competent in Russian as I need to be, the rest of the journey will be finishing things off, adding some vocabulary, tidying grammar up. The last stumbling block I had was talking on the phone in Russian. I hated it and avoided it whenever possible out of a lack of confidence. This trip has gotten me over it and I now phone companies and people quite happily knowing it would take a lot for me to be out of my depth.

This thread also motivated me hugely when Roosh started it. I saw him write that he was going to hit the books hard and thought to myself that there is no way he or anyone else on this forum is going to speak better than me. I knew how much it would hurt if I saw a video of him speaking awesome Russian if I had not progressed out of my own laziness. It made me determined to succeed.

I did it by small amounts of study a day, just 30-60 minutes. I did zero grammar study knowing I'd pick it up by ear. I just studied vocabulary and watched tv. 30 mins vocab then 30 mins of Russian tv to cement words and to learn context. I bought a usage frequency dictionary and set out to learn the first 2000 words and every day went over about 25 words, writing out sentences. If you want a blueprint to success then there it is for you. Also I committed to visiting the FSU as much as possible even though it was to the detriment of my career and finances. I also committed to dating exclusively girls with zero English so that I would not have to concede to their better English in the relationship. I learnt so much from girls I dated about how to use the language correctly and how to express myself as I wanted.

Looking back now it's not about the end point of being competent. There is no certificate or medal to hang around my neck. It was the journey getting here that was epic. The months in Belarus, Ukraine, the Caucasus, the people I met, relationships I had, adventures and disappointments each adding another incremental increase in fluency until this point 3 years down the line where I can finally say 'my Russian is no longer bullshit'.

Well I have a date with a young Siberian half my age now who speaks zero English and loves wearing the highest heels and the shortest skirt around town. Thanks Roosh.

Good luck on your language journey.

Great post. I can relate to most of it with my Spanish journey. Even if Spanish is a much easier language to learn.
07-20-2016 06:04 AM
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Agreddor Offline
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Post: #448
RE: Russian language: no more bullshit
Anyone here have any recommendations for a Russian thesaurus ?

I think a Russian thesaurus is a good way to build ones vocabulary base, of course a decent grasp of the language must first be present.
08-13-2016 10:09 PM
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Beijong Offline
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Post: #449
RE: Russian language: no more bullshit
So my tutor and I are going over russian cases now. I find them really difficult.

Can anyone tell me when to use the 6 cases in plain English? Like.. When do I use instrumental for instance? I think of it like "I write with a pencil" but there is so much more than just this simple sentence structure.. And its like that for all cases...

Any grammar pros out there that can lay it on me really easy?
08-17-2016 03:01 PM
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Agreddor Offline
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Post: #450
RE: Russian language: no more bullshit
(08-17-2016 03:01 PM)Beijong Wrote:  So my tutor and I are going over russian cases now. I find them really difficult.

Can anyone tell me when to use the 6 cases in plain English? Like.. When do I use instrumental for instance? I think of it like "I write with a pencil" but there is so much more than just this simple sentence structure.. And its like that for all cases...

Any grammar pros out there that can lay it on me really easy?

This site is pretty useful.

http://learnrussian.rt.com/grammar-tables/

My advice is to do the grammar exercises your tutor gives you, you'll only get better with practice. I know how frustrating it is learning Russian grammar. Don't be discouraged, keep at it, one day it will pay off.
08-17-2016 10:28 PM
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