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L M McCoy Offline
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RE: NFL thread
delete double post.
(This post was last modified: 04-24-2014 02:48 PM by L M McCoy.)
04-24-2014 02:46 PM
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RE: NFL thread
(04-24-2014 02:31 PM)L M McCoy Wrote:  
(04-24-2014 05:53 AM)Hotwheels Wrote:  ^^^^LOLZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ


btw-While the Packers had Lacy go over 1000 yards last year, that was the first time in a decade or so there was a decent ground game in GB. And, his carries were boosted by Rodgers injury. Tolzien and Flynn did NOT play all that well so McCarthy ran more than he ever has. The drop off in QB play was painful to watch.

In other words, the only time the Packers have had a "decent" ground game is the year that Rodgers was out 7 games. Never mind the fact the line has not been great in pass pro his entire career either.

As far as elite playmakers go, how did Jennings do in MN last year when he didn't have Rodgers tossing him the ball?

I know the packers have never had a run game with Rodgers in there I just believe that he is overrated due to the scheme he is in. He's obviously a top 5 QB

Jennings could have done much better with A.P. throwing him the ball

What scheme is that?

The one where he has to complete throws all over the field including beautiful back shoulder throws while avoiding pass rushers due to a crappy line?

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04-24-2014 02:53 PM
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RE: NFL thread
(04-24-2014 01:07 AM)Eastside Wrote:  The fact that there are people that still aren't sold on Russell Wilson is bewildering to me. The people who say he is just a game manager obviously haven't watched all of his games and are just cherry-picking there arguments and not looking at the entire body of work.

This article sums up his elite statistical performance through 2 years so far:
http://www.fieldgulls.com/seahawks-analy...-the-draft

I don't get it either. He's not a top 5 QB but I see a pretty strong case for him being in the top 10, and he's more than just a game manager. He's an explosive QB with a rifle arm, amazing mobility and a good sense of how to find his receivers out of the pocket. I know Seattle has a great ground game they base their offense on which helps him out, but come on he's much more than just some guy running the offense with above average skills (like Alex Smith). There's a reason he helped guide the Seahawks to the Super Bowl and Carroll started him as a rookie....

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04-24-2014 02:59 PM
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RE: NFL thread
(04-24-2014 02:53 PM)Hotwheels Wrote:  
(04-24-2014 02:31 PM)L M McCoy Wrote:  
(04-24-2014 05:53 AM)Hotwheels Wrote:  ^^^^LOLZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ


btw-While the Packers had Lacy go over 1000 yards last year, that was the first time in a decade or so there was a decent ground game in GB. And, his carries were boosted by Rodgers injury. Tolzien and Flynn did NOT play all that well so McCarthy ran more than he ever has. The drop off in QB play was painful to watch.

In other words, the only time the Packers have had a "decent" ground game is the year that Rodgers was out 7 games. Never mind the fact the line has not been great in pass pro his entire career either.

As far as elite playmakers go, how did Jennings do in MN last year when he didn't have Rodgers tossing him the ball?

I know the packers have never had a run game with Rodgers in there I just believe that he is overrated due to the scheme he is in. He's obviously a top 5 QB

Jennings could have done much better with A.P. throwing him the ball

What scheme is that?

The one where he has to complete throws all over the field including beautiful back shoulder throws while avoiding pass rushers due to a crappy line?

Sounds about right.
04-24-2014 03:06 PM
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L M McCoy Offline
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RE: NFL thread
I just have 1 question for all of you: What do you think of Teddy Bridgewater?
04-24-2014 03:15 PM
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RE: NFL thread
^^ Should have used gloves on his pro day. I think he will be a good qb. Not sure about being a franchise qb.

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04-24-2014 04:23 PM
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RE: NFL thread
I think the Jets did pretty good with signing new free agents. I used to like watching them just cause Sanchez sucked so bad and they had Tebow.

Tebow > Wilson ALL DAY SON!!!

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(This post was last modified: 04-24-2014 05:01 PM by Cr33pin.)
04-24-2014 05:01 PM
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Hotwheels Offline
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RE: NFL thread
(04-24-2014 05:01 PM)Cr33pin Wrote:  Tebow > Wilson ALL DAY SON!!!

Who let Skip Bayless in here?

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04-24-2014 05:38 PM
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Excelsior Offline
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RE: NFL thread
(04-24-2014 02:42 PM)L M McCoy Wrote:  Wilson has a high QBR and a good TD to INT ratio because he is a game manager

You do not know what a game manager is. Wilson does not fit the physical or statistical profile of a game manager. I have explained this before, as you'll see below:

(02-03-2014 04:12 AM)Excelsior Wrote:  
(02-03-2014 03:09 AM)DWF Wrote:  His numbers were okay, but they all came in garbage time. The first half he didn't do anything.

You just said his numbers were okay. He had 206 total passing yards. Just under half of these (94) came in the first half. The Seahawks offense accounted for a total of 29 points on the night. 15 of these (just over half) came in the first half.

During the first half, Wilson compiled nearly half of his passing total for the night and led his offense to compile the slight majority of the points they would account for in this game. That isn't "nothing".

Also, when exactly is "garbage time"? By my estimation, the game wasn't clearly out of reach until the end of the third quarter, and it was Wilson's first TD pass that put it there. Most of Wilson's yards came when the game was very much in contention.

Quote:The whole defense was the MVP of the game.

I would have given it to Harvin.

Quote:Have you heard of Trent Dilfer? Another game manager who won the SB with a team (Baltimore) that had an elite defense. Also, Brad Johnson won a SB with Tampa in 2003. How did he do it? Yep, another elite defense.

So, this is now the third time in the 2000s that a game manager has won a SB with the help of an elite defense. In each case, the games were blowouts precisely because the defense was completely dominating. Therefore, your statement that game managers don't win championships is obviously incorrect.

If those are your best "game manager" examples, then you've just proven my point: Russell Wilson is not a game manager. He is vastly superior to Trent Dilfer, who was, at his best, a serviceable starter who struggled to manage a positive TD:INT ratio and never managed a completion percentage over 60%:

http://www.nfl.com/player/trentdilfer/2500392/profile

Brad Johnson was not a game manager. In his SB winning season, he was top 10 in passing yards per game, ahead of McNair, Favre, McNabb and about a yard behind Brady. His yards per attempt were in the top half of the league, ahead of both Favre and Brady. His Air Yards per attempts were in the top 5. The Bucs did not merely expect Johnson to dink and dunk short, easy passes and scrape by a few wins. He was asked to throw the ball down the field and challenge defenses, and did so at a rate greater than the majority of QBs in the game that year. That team asked him to do as much with his arm as just about any other team in the league asked of their QB.

Trent Dilfer is what you can call a true game manager, and his stats bare that out. He could only just barely manage a positive TD-Turnover ratio, and his yards per game in his SB winning season (136.5 y/g) are FAR below the figures for either Johnson (234.5 y/g) or Wilson (209 y/g). His attempts per game (20) are also below the equivalent figures for both Johnson (34) and Wilson (25).

In examining both Wilson and Johnson's SB winning seasons, you will notice that both were top 10 in the league in air yards per attempt (that is to say, the average distance their passes traveled in the air before getting to the receiver). This statistic is useful: it can tell us which QBs are being asked to take chances down field and really test defences with their arms, and which QBs are simply being asked to dink and dunk their way to victory with short, easy throws that never really ask them to test a defence.
In Dilfer's SB winning season, he was 26th in Air Yards/attempt. Wilson was 6th this year and Johnson was 5th in 2002. Combine this with the fact that each of those QBs had a substantially higher number of attempts and yards per game and you can conclude that both were asked to do much more with their arms than Dilfer was. They're in a different league.

Dilfer statistically did the bare minimum needed to win and was unable to truly carry his offense. The Ravens, fortunately, never asked him to do so, and that is evidenced by his relatively low y/g, attempts/g and air yards/attempt, in addition to his high turnover rate and low TD%.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/ye...assing.htm
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/ye...assing.htm
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/ye...assing.htm

Brad Johnson is not in that league and neither is Russell Wilson. Those two QBs are not statistically comparable to Trent Dilfer, who is the only true game manager mentioned in this thread.

TL;DR: You're right, game managers can win Super Bowls. Brad Johnson and Russell Wilson provide no evidence of this. Trent Dilfer does.

Now to address the rest of your post...

Quote:The rams were rated as 19th in the league in passing yards and the cardinals were 14

I don't see how those are good secondaries.

So now this is suddenly only about secondaries?

Here is exactly what you said:

(04-23-2014 11:51 PM)L M McCoy Wrote:  When going up against above average defenses, Wilson is very subpar.

This statement was easily proven wrong and, when faced with insurmountable evidence establishing that fact, you start moving goalposts.
"Defenses" become "secondaries". "Above average" becomes "good".
The disingenuous nature of your argument here is too transparent.

The defenses I have given you are above average. They are top 15 in the league in fewest yards and points allowed per game and in fewest yards per play. They are literally among the 15 most difficult defenses in the league to actually score and move the ball against. They are superior to more than 50% of the league in that regard (read: above average). Wilson moved the ball against them just fine.

This is what you asked for: above average (read: better than 16th) defenses. You got them. Wilson has been far better than "sub-par" when faced with said defenses. That isn't debatable.

You were wrong, and the statistics make that clear. Own it.

Quote:Wilson's stats are almost identical to Smith's minus the QBR and I think we all know how flawed the QBR stat actually is.

QBR, total passing yards and completion % are all flawed statistics. That does not make them invalid. Wilson has a substantially higher completion percentage, yards per attempt, DVOA, DYAR and TD/INT ratio. His statistics are not "almost identical" to Alex Smith's. He is clearly the better quarterback. There is no valid argument to the contrary.

Quote:If you want to go based off QBR than Nick Foles is the best QB in the league.

Strawman. I did not at any time claim that QBR alone was enough to determine the superiority of one QB over another.

Quote:Indy's D had good statistics because of playing the subpar teams in its division.

Indy's D had good statistics because it was a better unit than its 2012 or 2011 counterparts.

Quote:I am making my claims based off of strictly last season.

No you aren't, as evidenced by this statement at the end of this post:

(04-24-2014 02:42 PM)L M McCoy Wrote:  When the seahawks made the playoffs his rookie year, he threw for 0 300 yard games. How do you not call that overrated?

You are clearly open to making claims that are not "based off of strictly last season" when it is convenient for you.

In this case, it isn't even really convenient for you. Wilson threw for 385 yards in the playoffs against the Falcons. He holds the NFL record for most passing yards in a playoff game by a rookie.

That fact isn't convenient for your argument, though, so I can see why you left it out.

Quote:Put Luck or Newton on the seahawks and you would have a better team.

The statistical evidence we do have available says otherwise. There is no support for your claim.

Quote:I can claim that Tebow has a great body of work and is a film rat. Does that make Tebow a good QB?

No.

Quote:By saying Luck's o-line was the worst I was meant pass blocking. IDK if pro football focus has one for solely pass blocking. I will stand corrected.

Luck's O-Line was not the worst in the league by any measure, pass blocking or otherwise. Seattle's O-line performance was substantially worse in 2013 and I have provided ample evidence to prove that. There is no statistical evidence for your claims to the contrary. You have no choice but to stand corrected.

Quote:I admit the 2013 colts weren't as bad is I made them sound them but its hard to imagine Wilson could even come close to sniffing the same success as Luck has had with the colts.

It is very easy to imagine if you're examining the hypothetical objectively and aren't heavily biased against Wilson (as you have shown yourself to be).

Quote:if a defense is ranked as #15 that is averaged seeing as how there are 32 teams.

16 would be average. 15 would be just above average.

Quote:I'm not hating on Wilson,

That ain't what it sounds like.

Quote:I just don't think he is a top 5 QB YET and I think he is way too overrated.

1. Nobody in this thread claimed that Wilson is a Top 5 QB. I made the claim that he was in the Top 10, which is a very different argument.

2. Wilson is far from overrated. His excellent defense and running game combined with his relatively low number of passing attempts per game have conspired to make him severely underrated. Andrew Luck is overrated, as evidenced in large part by your placement of him in the NFL's top 5 (a group he most certainly does not belong in).

Quote:Russell wilson has thrown for over 300 yards just 2 times

Incorrect. He has had three 300 yard games.

Quote:When the seahawks made the playoffs his rookie year, he threw for 0 300 yard games.

He had one 300 yard game.

Quote:How do you not call that overrated?

If you'd like to know why I do not consider Russell Wilson overrated and posit that he is in fact a Top 10 NFL QB, you can take a look at the last couple of posts I have made in this thread (You can start with this one). There is more than enough substantiation within them for the claim that Wilson is vastly superior to wherever your opinion has ranked him.
04-24-2014 05:48 PM
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RE: NFL thread
Btw. Aldon Smith case forwarded to misdemeanor proceedings, not felony. Good news for Niners fans.

Really, I think we all knew that this was what happened at LAX:


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04-24-2014 06:09 PM
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RE: NFL thread
You don't want to debate with Excelsior. He knows what he considers a 10 and he knows football.

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(This post was last modified: 04-24-2014 06:59 PM by Cr33pin.)
04-24-2014 06:56 PM
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RE: NFL thread
(04-24-2014 06:56 PM)Cr33pin Wrote:  You don't want to debate with Excelsior. He knows what he considers a 10 and he knows football.

I just like how so many guys debate about which qb is best/top 10/wilson good or bad. Like anyone will win the conversation. Laugh Meaning who can make a final ruling? No one.

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(This post was last modified: 04-24-2014 07:26 PM by samsamsam.)
04-24-2014 07:25 PM
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RE: NFL thread
(04-24-2014 07:25 PM)samsamsam Wrote:  
(04-24-2014 06:56 PM)Cr33pin Wrote:  You don't want to debate with Excelsior. He knows what he considers a 10 and he knows football.

I just like how so many guys debate about which qb is best/top 10/wilson good or bad. Like anyone will win the conversation. Laugh Meaning who can make a final ruling? No one.
I rule in favor of Excelsior no matter what he is arguing. He just always sounds so damn smart.

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04-24-2014 07:34 PM
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L M McCoy Offline
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RE: NFL thread
Dude if Wilson threw for 2 300 yard games all year long and throws for 0 his rookie year and the seahawks still make the playoffs that is the definition of a game manager.

I assumed that you knew I was talking about secondaries when I mentioned defenses as its the RB and o-line VS the front 7 and the QB and the WRs for the secondary.

The stats are there, I'm just not a member of PFF and that is the only site I know that has those statistics. When looking at o-line, sacks given up are good enough. For example, the eagles in 2011 allowed for Vick to get hit on 37 or 38% of all drop backs and allowed pressure on over 40% of all drop backs (I recall the numbers being around there so don't quote me on it) which is one of the worst in NFL history yet according to the stats they were a top 10 o-line.

What do you mean there is no support my claim that both Luck and Newton can't do better than Wilson on that team? Both don't have the WR corps that Wilson has and both carry their respective teams. Can you say that Wilson is the best player on his O? Who did Newton have to throw to other than Smith? Who did Luck have to throw to T.Y. Hilton? Did Wilson carry his team? No he didn't. Wilson was a key piece (limiting turn overs) but he didn't carry that team. If Luck and Newton put up better numbers than Wilson with less of a WR corps, I think its safe to assume they would out perform him in his situation.

I like how you mention that other than Rice and Harvin, Wilson's WR corps sucked.

Have you seen the PFF grades handed out to Tate, Kearse, and Baldwin?

You're logic is flawed due to the fact that none of those QBs that you mentioned (despite having started games) are starting caliber type of QBs. Many got their starts ONLY because someone was injured. If I recall the browns went 3-0 with Hoyer till he got hurt. The vikings only put in Cassel with Ponder got hurt.
(This post was last modified: 04-24-2014 09:00 PM by L M McCoy.)
04-24-2014 08:41 PM
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RE: NFL thread
(04-24-2014 08:41 PM)L M McCoy Wrote:  Dude if Wilson threw for 2 300 yard games all year long and throws for 0 his rookie year and the seahawks still make the playoffs that is the definition of a game manager.

I literally just finished explaining to you what a game manager is. A game manager is not simply a QB who has a low numbr of attepts per game. A game manaer is a QB of whom little is asked, a playr whose actions specifically have a relatively small impact on the game.

I've already given you DYAR measurements for 2013 QBs that clearly list Wilson as one of the 10 least replaceable QBs in the NFL (as measured by how far his production was above replacement level). You have ignored them.

I've already given you statistical proof of Wilson testing defenses down the field more than all but a handful of QBs in the NFL. You have ignored this as well.

I am going to try this one final time.

When an offensive coordinator repeatedly calls on you to test defenses down the field (as evidenced by a yards-per-attempt measure that ranks near the top 5 in the league), he is not asking you to manage the game - he is asking you to change it. At that point, the game is in your hands. You are making challenging throws, all of which have the capacity to seriously impact the game.

If Russell Wilson were known for dink and dunk passing with low yards per attempt and few downfield throws, you'd have a real argument. You could honestly say then that Wilson never tests defenses - he merely inflates his completion percentage with easy throws and does just enough to get first downs. He never makes big plays with his arm or legs, he just avoids too many mistakes. Such a player would not bring much to the table relative to a replacement level player - he would have a low DYAR and a low value per play.

Any person who has seen Russell Wilson play (I'm beginning to seriously doubt that you are one of them) or knows how to read the available statistics understands clearly that this is not how Wilson plays. Game managers are not asked to do the things Wilson does, and they are not capable of making the gamechanging plays (in the air and on the ground) that Wilson has consistently made in his first to years. A player with Wlson's DYAR and DVOA cannot logically be considered a game manager - those statistics measure value added by a given player, and only a player who does more than manage a game could possible do well in either measure. A game manager, by definition, would have a poor DYAR and DVOA in addition to a very low yards-per-attempt and a lack of production on the ground. Wilson simply isn't a game manager - end of story.

Quote:I assumed that you knew I was talking about secondaries when I mentioned defenses as its the RB and o-line VS the front 7 and the QB and the WRs for the secondary.

1. You said defenses, not secondaries. Secondaries do not compose the entirety of a defense.

2. It is the offense vs. the defense. Your simplistic breakdown ignores the fact that a quarterback's ability to carve up a secondary does not exist independent of his o-line/rb's ability to defeat a front 7. This is especially true for a mobile QB like Wilson who is actually an integral part of his team's running game. You speak as though the RB/O-Line and QB/WRs operate in entirely separate worlds. This is not how the game of football works. RBs are part of the passing game; QBs are part of the running game. WRs and TEs impact the effectiveness of pass rushers and vice versa. One has to take all of this into account in order to make a proper comparison, and that is what a measure of total defense does (points allowed per game, yards per game, yards per play).

What you've attempted to do here is create a false dichotomy, and I do not accept it. Against the 15 stingiest defenses in the league in 2013, Wilson was far more than sub-par. You made him out to be far worse than he actually was. The evidence is there and it isn't disputable. Just concede the point already.

Quote:The stats are there, I'm just not a member of PFF and that is the only site I know that has those statistics. When looking at o-line, sacks given up are good enough. For example, the eagles in 2011 allowed for Vick to get hit on 37 or 38% of all drop backs and allowed pressure on over 40% of all drop backs which is one of the worst in NFL history yet according to the stats they were a top 10 o-line.

That's probably because of their run blocking performance (O-Lines do more than just pass protect).

In any case, I have your stats right here.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol

Seattle had the worst pass protecting O-Line in the league in 2013 (9 for run blocking). Indy was 6th best in the NFL (15 for run blocking).

The 2013 Indianapolis Colts did not have the worst offensive line in the NFL. The Seahawks had a group up front that was inferior, thanks in large part to injury. When comparing Andrew Luck and Russell Wilson, one cannot logically make the claim that Luck had to deal with inferior offensive line play. He did not. Both of these quarterbacks had mediocre, bottom-10 offensive lines, and Wilson had the worst of the draw in that regard (his line was FAR worse when it came to pass protecting). Luck's line has gotten much better since 2012.

Quote:What do you mean there is no support my claim that both Luck and Newton can't do better than Wilson on that team?
Both don't have the WR corps that Wilson has and both carry their respective teams.

Baldwin and Tate together are superior to a Hilton/Bey or Hilton/Brazil combination. The Hilton/Wayne combination is better still, but Wayne was out for just over half of the year. I'll concede that Wilson had slightly better receivers than Luck did in at least half of 2013 (when Wayne was absent).

Neither Wilson nor Luck have a TE as good as Greg Olsen (and Fleener is as good any TE currently in Seattle).

Carolina had a top-8 O-Line according to PFF. Luck's unit was 25th. Wilson's was worse still at 27th.

Again, I found the stats you were looking for with regard to pass blocking (courtesy of Football Outsiders), and they tell a story that differs from your own narrative about Luck.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol

Indy's O-Line was 6th in the league in Pass Protection, and 15th with regard to the run game. Seattle had the worst pass protecting line in the NFL according to Football Outsiders.
I think we can safely conclude that Wilson had the worst O-Line by a fairly substantial margin.

To sum all of this up:

Wilson had better receivers during the latter half of 2014, the worst O-Line overall according to PFF, the worst pass protecting O-Line according to FO, the best RB and the worst TE.

Newton had the worst receivers, the best O-Line overall according to PFF, the second best pass protecting O-Line according to FO, the second best RB and the best TE.

Luck had the best receivers during the first half of 2014, the second best O-Line overall according to PFF, the best pass protecting O-Line, the worst RBs and the second best TE.

I do not see how one can conclude on the basis of any of the information above that Wilson would easily be surpassed by either Luck or Newton in Seattle.

Both of those players would have to deal with an O-Line in Seattle that was much, much worse than what they were used to. Luck is less mobile and less accurate than Wilson with inferior arm strength to boot. He would be standing behind the league's worst pass-protecting O-Line (FAR worse than his own) and would not be nearly as adept as Wilson is at escaping the pressure. He also would not have the benefit of his college offensive coordinator's guidance (someone who made him what he is over the course of the last 5/6 years and knows him extremely well), an all-pro receiver to throw to or his college tight end's work as an outlet.

Much of the same goes for Newton who, though more mobile than Luck, is not as quick as Wilson. Newton would have better targets to throw to than he did in Carolina, but would he have any time to hit them? The Panthers O-Line would protect him far better than Seattle's - he's not going to be used to standing behind a rock-bottom, patchwork unit.

Wilson makes quicker and smarter decisions than both - this is one of his elite traits. Can a QB who takes longer to make decisions survive behind Seattle's abysmal pass-protecting O-Line? I would predict many more mistakes from Newton or Luck in Seattle under pressure than we saw from Wilson.

I don't think you have a strong case.

Quote:Can you say that Wilson is the best player on his O?

I could, but the argument for Lynch would be just as strong.

Quote:Who did Newton have to throw to other than Smith?

[Image: Greg+Olsen+Carolina+Panthers+v+Tampa+Bay...nf70Gl.jpg]

Quote:Who did Luck have to throw to T.Y. Hilton?

T.Y. Hilton, Colby Fleener, Heyward-Bey, Brazill and (for the first half of the year) Reggie Wayne.

Quote:Did Wilson carry his team?

Yes, as this scouting report indicates:

Quote:Lynch has been healthy all year and while he has been a valuable asset who has enjoyed an outstanding season, he alone hasn't offset the impact of losing both starting receivers and starting offensive tackles. Doug Baldwin and Golden Tate have been very good in relief of Rice and Harvin, so the drop-off in receiving options hasn't been detrimental. However, with a lesser quarterback the drop-off in quality on the offensive line could easily have destroyed the Seahawks season regardless of who was in the backfield or playing on defense.

If Wilson were Alex Smith or Colin Kaepernick with the line he had (bottom 5 in the league), the Seahawks would have fallen apart. His improvisation, quick release and accuracy throughout the season are what kept the Seahawks a contender and made them champions at the end of the day.

Quote:If Luck and Newton put up better numbers than Wilson with less of a WR corps, I think its safe to assume they would out perform him in his situation.

It would be safe to make that assumption if ether of those players had put up better numbers than Wilson with inferior receiving corps.

The problem is that neither player did that.

Quote:I like how you mention that other than Rice and Harvin, Wilson's WR corps sucked.

They didn't suck. Kearse and Baldwin are decent starters, and I noted that.

Quote:Have you seen the PFF grades handed out to Tate, Kearse, and Baldwin?

No, but I used Football Outsiders to get a feel for how they are. Tate and Baldwin grade out well.

Quote:You're logic is flawed due to the fact that none of those QBs that you mentioned (despite having started games) are starting caliber type of QBs.

Game managers are generally not starting caliber QBs. Most are eventually relegated to backup duty and are never considered long-term franchise QBs. That's another flaw in your bid to attach that label to Wilson, as he is clearly a starting caliber QB with long-term franchise value.

Quote:Many got their starts ONLY because someone was injured. If I recall the browns went 3-0 with Hoyer till he got hurt. The vikings only put in Cassel with Ponder got hurt.

Many game managers do not begin their careers as backups. They play their way into that role and out of starting jobs. Cassel was touted as a franchise QB quite recently, and played like a game manager. This is when he became a backup.

Dilfer, Tannehill and Ponder are all in the same league. They were all consider starters at one point and lost their starting jobs (save for Tannehill, who is holding onto his for now) because they played like the game managers that they are. Hoyer is also a game manager, as was Matt Flynn toward the end of this year. Both are career backups.

Russell Wilson does not belong in the conversation that all of these QBs are in. He is a Top 10 QB and will therefore not have the same career trajectory that game managers like Dilfer, Cassel and Ponder have had (all former starters).
04-24-2014 11:29 PM
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RE: NFL thread
Going back to the divorce, some new details have emerged. Turns out these two were HS sweethearts. She twice changed her colleges and transferred with him (NC State and Wisconsin). So, it appears she was there from the beginning long before he was this SB winning QB whose about to sign a massive contract next year. And suddenly, she's tossed aside like garbage because Wilson wants to protect his $$ while having the freedom to bang all the 9+s that are now available to him?

There's more to this story in my estimation. Not defending her or anything, but it doesn't look like thus is some gold-digger getting what she deserves.
04-24-2014 11:40 PM
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kosko Offline
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RE: NFL thread
(04-24-2014 11:40 PM)DWF Wrote:  Going back to the divorce, some new details have emerged. Turns out these two were HS sweethearts. She twice changed her colleges and transferred with him (NC State and Wisconsin). So, it appears she was there from the beginning long before he was this SB winning QB whose about to sign a massive contract next year. And suddenly, she's tossed aside like garbage because Wilson wants to protect his $$ while having the freedom to bang all the 9+s that are now available to him?

There's more to this story in my estimation. Not defending her or anything, but it doesn't look like thus is some gold-digger getting what she deserves.

Somebody was fucking somebody else is likely. Maybe she wanted kids and he wasn't down. A lot of things could of factored in for sure. Both were hardcore Christians were they not? Maybe this thing was on ice since he broke into the Pros and they just tried to keep the music going. Who knows.
04-24-2014 11:46 PM
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RE: NFL thread
(04-24-2014 11:40 PM)DWF Wrote:  Going back to the divorce, some new details have emerged. Turns out these two were HS sweethearts. She twice changed her colleges and transferred with him (NC State and Wisconsin). So, it appears she was there from the beginning long before he was this SB winning QB whose about to sign a massive contract next year. And suddenly, she's tossed aside like garbage because Wilson wants to protect his $$ while having the freedom to bang all the 9+s that are now available to him?

There's more to this story in my estimation. Not defending her or anything, but it doesn't look like thus is some gold-digger getting what she deserves.

From a "morally decent" perspective it does indeed sound scummy, amusing to me since fans of the Seahawks often anoint Wilson as being the golden boy who only lives to visit hospitals and play with sick children (while on the other hand thug ghetto Kaepernick is the devil incarnate).

That aside, I can't blame any male with a healthy supply of testosterone and his circumstances from doing exactly what he just did. Any one of us reading these forums would not have behaved any different.
04-24-2014 11:59 PM
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RE: NFL thread
"Lynch has been healthy all year and while he has been a valuable asset who has enjoyed an outstanding season, he alone hasn't offset the impact of losing both starting receivers and starting offensive tackles. Doug Baldwin and Golden Tate have been very good in relief of Rice and Harvin, so the drop-off in receiving options hasn't been detrimental. However, with a lesser quarterback the drop-off in quality on the offensive line could easily have destroyed the Seahawks season regardless of who was in the backfield or playing on defense."


^This crushed my arguments. Well played. Now I have a question for you: Do you feel that Percy Harvin is overrated? I don't question his big play ability but he has never broken 1k yards nor has he ever had more than 6 receiving TDs in a season. Seattle should have given up the picks for Josh Gordon, that guy is a monster.
(This post was last modified: 04-25-2014 12:13 AM by L M McCoy.)
04-25-2014 12:10 AM
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Excelsior Offline
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RE: NFL thread
(04-25-2014 12:10 AM)L M McCoy Wrote:  Now I have a question for you: Do you feel that Percy Harvin is overrated? I don't question his big play ability but he has never broken 1k yards nor has he ever had more than 6 receiving TDs in a season. Seattle should have given up the picks for Josh Gordon, that guy is a monster.

Harvin has just not been durable. If he could stay healthy for 16 games I could see him living up to the hype. We saw that when he finally got game time for Seattle in the playoffs - he immediately changed the game in a big way despite not really being in game shape. As things stand right now, he hasn't brought his money's worth.
04-25-2014 12:56 AM
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RE: NFL thread
(04-24-2014 11:59 PM)Professor Fox Wrote:  From a "morally decent" perspective it does indeed sound scummy, amusing to me since fans of the Seahawks often anoint Wilson as being the golden boy who only lives to visit hospitals and play with sick children (while on the other hand thug ghetto Kaepernick is the devil incarnate).

That aside, I can't blame any male with a healthy supply of testosterone and his circumstances from doing exactly what he just did. Any one of us reading these forums would not have behaved any different.

He should not have gotten married. No pro athlete should allow themselves to enter a serious relationship or a marriage prior to the end of their careers. Being in their position with their status, notoriety and income offers a serious test of their loyalty and fidelity, one that just about every man will fail.
04-25-2014 12:59 AM
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RE: NFL thread
Personally I applaud Russel for getting this divorce. He filed it, not his wife. Hopefully he's taking charge and is about to start banging all thirteen of Seattle's dimepieces. Pro athletes should not be married until after their career is over. They have a perfect life set up making top 0.1% money with fame. His wife was hot, but he can smash hundreds of girls much hotter now. Good for him. Hopefully it doesn't affect his play though.

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04-25-2014 06:44 PM
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RE: NFL thread
G.O.A.T GREATEST OF ALL TIME!!!!!
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04-25-2014 06:56 PM
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RE: NFL thread
^^ Is he a unicorn? What is that sticking out of his head Smile

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04-25-2014 06:57 PM
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RE: NFL thread
(04-25-2014 06:57 PM)samsamsam Wrote:  ^^ Is he a unicorn? What is that sticking out of his head Smile
Its greatness... It just comes out of him and his beefy body in many ways, shapes, and forms. Mostly through excellent quarterback skills tho.

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(This post was last modified: 04-25-2014 07:00 PM by Cr33pin.)
04-25-2014 06:59 PM
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