Read The Forum Rules: We have a clear set of rules to keep the forum running smoothly. Click here to review them.

Post Reply 
Me, the Unabomber, and "Acting White"
Author Message
Enigma Offline
Hummingbird
*****
Gold Member

Posts: 3,569
Joined: Oct 2012
Reputation: 91
Post: #51
RE: Me, the Unabomber, and "Acting White"
(07-02-2014 05:14 PM)thedude3737 Wrote:  Confused Please don't...

I get that there may be some novelty appeal, like, "Wow! They play an instrument!"

Let's just say none of them would make the cut for high school jazz band.

You're right, someone trained in classical piano wouldn't make the high school band Confused

Your point was that hip hop "DJs" couldn't learn an instrument, and my counterpoint was that many of them already know one or more. Now your argument is that they're not professional guitar players? Of course not, it's not something they practice every day.

Come on, man. You're so obviously being biased, I don't see why you can't just accept that you have a different opinion rather than completely making things up just to downplay other people's tastes.

(07-02-2014 05:03 PM)Cunnilinguist Wrote:  I think rap is one of those things where you have to be part of the culture in order to truly appreciate it.

Good point, which is why I don't understand why people feel the need to trash it and make up these ridiculous facts.

Just say "Hey, I don't like it" instead of "rap is shit, it's so stupid". I don't understand why one genre has to be better than another, and you can't just enjoy what they each bring to the table and how that fits with your particular tastes.

I've been in the studio with producers and rappers, and I've been in storage units with rock bands. There's talent that go into both, it's just different techniques and sounds.
07-02-2014 05:47 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[-] The following 1 user Likes Enigma's post:
Giovonny
Giovonny Offline
Crow
*****
Gold Member

Posts: 6,405
Joined: Nov 2009
Reputation: 310
Post: #52
RE: Me, the Unabomber, and "Acting White"
(07-02-2014 04:20 PM)thedude3737 Wrote:  So Gio, what you're basically saying is:

"That's just like, your opinion man."

Yes.

I was pointing out that our opinions about "art" are not facts. They are only our perspective about the art work.

One man might like rap music because he CAN relate to it. Another man might dislike rap music because he CAN NOT relate to it.

Neither man is right or wrong. They simply have a different perspective.

(07-02-2014 04:20 PM)thedude3737 Wrote:  we can establish certain parameters about what we consider music, and to me rap doesn't meet those parameters.

Like you said, this is just your opinion..

This is not a fact.

This is merely your perspective about a field of art.

If you want to present your view as fact, show us evidence that supports your opinion.

(07-02-2014 04:20 PM)thedude3737 Wrote:  it's a pretty established stereotype.

Just because something is an established stereotype -- Does not make it universally true.

Maybe jazz is dominated by Blacks because Whites choose not to play it?

Maybe jazz is dominated by Blacks because Whites were not exposed to it early on?

Maybe jazz is dominated by Blacks because they have simply worked harder and longer at it?

Maybe jazz is dominated by Blacks because the album buying music audience would prefer that there jazz musicians be black.

Maybe jazz is dominated by Blacks not because of some racial DNA but rather some cultural influences. Maybe, it's a little of both?

Maybe, it's all of the above.

Also, Blacks only dominate basketball, sprinting, and American football. Nearly all other sports are dominated by non Blacks.

The "stereotype" is only true to an extent.

100 years ago, basketball was dominated by Jews.

(07-02-2014 04:20 PM)thedude3737 Wrote:  I just don't get any fulfillment or enrichment from any of it.

You don't.

But, maybe someone else does.

We all like different things.
(This post was last modified: 07-02-2014 06:13 PM by Giovonny.)
07-02-2014 05:57 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[-] The following 1 user Likes Giovonny's post:
Enigma
Veloce Offline
Crow
*****
Gold Member

Posts: 5,901
Joined: Jan 2011
Reputation: 183
Post: #53
RE: Me, the Unabomber, and "Acting White"
Sheesh, you guys are taking this seriously.

Okay, since we're getting very literal here, then these are the two points I would make. Take them at face value:

Rap is not music. I define music as a collection of tones played in conjunction to form melodies, harmonies, and phrases to express emotions or ideas. Okay, so rap "samples" music written by other people, and they set lyrics to those samples, but to call this music is disingenuous. It's reciting non-tonal lyrics over non-original music.

Rappers are talented within their field, but they are not as talented as musicians. For me to make this point might seem spiteful, but it's not. I have nothing against rap and I acknowledge the talent and enormous success that the genre has generated. Shit, the guys at the top are sitting in mansions and I'm not. My criticism is strictly objective as a comparison to other "musical" genres. That's just it, is I wouldn't compare to other music genres, because I don't consider it music. I'd sooner label it a performance art or spoken word. Rap is obviously more relevant to modern culture than classical music because compare the audiences; noone gives a shit who Daniil Trifonov is, but everyone knows who Jay-Z is. But from a musical perspective, Daniil Trifonov is a billion times more musically talented than Jay-Z. So call Jay-Z a talented rapper, businessman, entertainer, what have you. But he's not a musician.

Edit: I already know what your counter-argument is Enigma, that many rap artists compose their own music rather than sampling. All I can say is, play me something that will change my mind that there is musical talent in any of it, because I haven't heard it. And play me something that a rapper actually composed, not a studio tech.

(This post was last modified: 07-02-2014 06:21 PM by Veloce.)
07-02-2014 06:18 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
The Lizard of Oz Offline
Crow
*****
Gold Member

Posts: 5,218
Joined: Aug 2013
Reputation: 266
Post: #54
RE: Me, the Unabomber, and "Acting White"
I'm going to say something personal; for once, I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything -- so thedude and others can relax. Wink

I've had more experiences of obliterative joy and ecstasy listening to rap music from the '80s, '90s and '00s -- and primarily to West Coast rap written between about 1992-2002 -- than from pretty much anything else in my life. Nothing -- nothing -- has brought me, and continues to bring me, more intense pleasure. Nothing ravishes me more.

There is not a group of people in the world that I feel more gratitude for than Dre, Snoop, Daz, Kurupt, Nate, Warren and their collaborators. I'll include Run DMC in this as their equals although from a different era.

To me, not only is this music -- it is music of genius. Not only that, but I feel that it represents one of the heights of artistic and expressive creation achieved by mankind in any context. Their intensities far transcend any secondary and tertiary virtues of mere wit or cleverness. These are tame virtues that have little to do with the ferocity that great music is at its height.

I could go on at length about why I feel that way. But ultimately, some depths and intensities cannot be explained and must be felt -- or not. So just take this for what it is worth.

I'll leave you with this. Nobody Does It Better.

RIP Nate.




same old shit, sixes and sevens Shaft...
07-02-2014 08:23 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[-] The following 1 user Likes The Lizard of Oz's post:
Giovonny
Wutang Offline
Ostrich
****
Gold Member

Posts: 2,694
Joined: Mar 2012
Reputation: 43
Post: #55
RE: Me, the Unabomber, and "Acting White"
(07-02-2014 04:20 PM)thedude3737 Wrote:  You can't compare hip hop to jazz, you just can't. It's like comparing kids playing a board game to a brain surgeon. Call it cultural elitism, but there it is. I don't care how good a DJ is, he's just spinning records and synching. Take any jazz musician and give them 3 months to learn how to DJ and I bet the results would be respectable. Take any DJ and give him a few months to learn an instrument, let alone play jazz on it, and it just wouldn't happen.

While I do believe whether a piece of music is "good" or not can be very subjective, I do think saying that one form of music is technically more advanced and requires more invested study to perform and write can be established pretty objectively.

I don't see how anyone can say that takes as much ability to compose the "beats" for a rap song which usually is just one measure of music with less then 5 notes being looped over and over again compared to say a progressive rock song features constant key changes, changes in rhythm, chord progressions and the like. Please note that I'm not saying complexity = good - a lot of time art is best when it's simple and adding more elements tends to detract from it. I like medieval folk music for example though it is technically pretty simple. And yes, I do enjoy some rap as well, Bone Thugz n Harmony's "E. 1999 Eternal" is one of my favorite albums of all time.
07-02-2014 11:09 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Giovonny Offline
Crow
*****
Gold Member

Posts: 6,405
Joined: Nov 2009
Reputation: 310
Post: #56
RE: Me, the Unabomber, and "Acting White"
(07-02-2014 06:18 PM)thedude3737 Wrote:  Rap is not music.

I don't necessarily disagree with you..

I'm just curious..

How are you measuring this?

What are your parameters for establishing what is music and what is not?

I want to agree with you but I just need to see some evidence first..

(07-02-2014 06:18 PM)thedude3737 Wrote:  I define music as a collection of tones played in conjunction to form melodies, harmonies, and phrases to express emotions or ideas.

"A collection of tones played in conjunction to form melodies, harmonies, and phrases to express emotions or ideas"

I like that definition.

Rap music easily fits into that definition.

Rap music is "a collection of tones played in conjunction to form melodies.."

Some people like the "melodies" and some people don't.

(07-02-2014 06:18 PM)thedude3737 Wrote:  play me something that will change my mind that there is musical talent in any of it

I could play you my favorite rap songs but that would be pointless..

This is a matter of taste.

Music is art.

Millions of people are emotionally "moved" by listening to rap.

They are "moved" by the sounds and the lyrics.

They will say that the sounds touch them deeply and emotionally.

They will say the sounds are "melodic", "harmonious" and invoke "emotion".

They will say that they are inspired by it.

Isn't that the point of music?

Isn't that the point of art?

-----

I feel the same way about "electronic music".

Most of it is probably made on computers.

But, if a sound or "melody" is created, why shouldn't it be considered music..?

The computer is just a modern instrument. It's a man made device that makes sounds.

The violin was once a new invention.
The piano was once a new invention.
The guitar was once a new invention.

Man takes a piece of nature and manipulates it into a device that makes sounds.

Computers, turn tables, synthesizers, drum pads, etc. are just the newest musical inventions.

(07-02-2014 08:23 PM)The Lizard of Oz Wrote:  Nothing -- nothing -- has brought me, and continues to bring me, more intense pleasure.

A man says that a certain collection of tones, sounds, and words has brought him "intense pleasure".

Who I am to say that what he heard is not music?

Music is a feeling.

It is "defined" in the ear, mind, and heart of the man who is listening to it.


-----

Unless you can show me some scientific method that proves that rap is not music.

I would be very curious to see that..

----

My general feeling is that when it comes to art.. There is no right or wrong... There is just a difference in taste.
(This post was last modified: 07-03-2014 02:08 PM by Giovonny.)
07-03-2014 02:05 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[-] The following 1 user Likes Giovonny's post:
Post Reply 


Forum Jump:


User(s) browsing this thread: 2 Guest(s)

Contact Us | RooshV.com | Return to Top | Return to Content | Mobile Version | RSS Syndication