Read The Forum Rules: We have a clear set of rules to keep the forum running smoothly. Click here to review them.

Post Reply 
Fast food workers to strike. Demand $15/hr
Author Message
Therapsid Offline
Pelican
****

Posts: 1,357
Joined: Sep 2012
Reputation: 17
Post: #51
RE: Fast food workers to strike. Demand $15/hr
(08-29-2013 12:56 AM)Bolthouse Wrote:  
(08-29-2013 12:40 AM)Therapsid Wrote:  On the other hand, it would encourage the utilization of labor-saving technology. Fast food itself is the product of such technology.
(snip)
So long as corporations can rely upon an endless reservoir of cheap labor they may not feel an incentive to invest in new productive methods.

This has already begun with a few McDonalds having their drive through window outsourced to the Philippines and other fast food restaurants implementing touch-screen ordering systems.

Even at current wages, fast food labor isn't necessarily cheap. Sooner or later one of the big chains will perfect the labor-free assembly line of a hamburger going from the freezer to the customer's tray.

Good. If a minimum wage increase hastens the automation of fast food, it could be a net benefit to society.

The ancient Greek scientist Hero of Alexandria developed primitive steam engines two thousand years ago.

We could have had the industrial revolution during the heyday of the Roman Empire. Imagine how advanced civilization would be today!

But slave labor was so available it didn't make sense to invest in such technologies. Note that medieval Europe did away with slavery by and large, and that moreover in England where the industrial revolution began serfdom had also been extinguished for centuries in favor of free labor.
08-29-2013 01:04 AM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[-] The following 1 user Likes Therapsid's post:
Bolthouse
Apollo Away
Robin
*

Posts: 171
Joined: Dec 2012
Reputation: 6
Post: #52
RE: Fast food workers to strike. Demand $15/hr
(08-29-2013 12:15 AM)Wadsworth Wrote:  
(08-28-2013 11:29 PM)scorpion Wrote:  
(08-28-2013 11:06 PM)Gopher Wrote:  "If I didn't have public assistance to help me out, I think I would have been out on the street already with the money I make at McDonald's."

This is the part you should have bolded. We pay for these people one way or another. If you don't require businesses to pay a living wage, these people simply turn to the government. So instead of a company's customers and shareholders bearing the burden like they should, the taxpayer picks up the tab. Due to the economic system we've created, people have to have some form of income to survive. It's not like everyone can just move to a farm and grow their own food. So if you deny low-skilled, low IQ people (there are millions of them) the ability to honestly earn a living wage, you are essentially sentencing them to death or a life of crime.

There are only three solutions to this problem:

1) Allow companies to pay extremely low wages, and subsidize the poor with government handouts (the status quo).

2) Force companies to pay higher wages, passing on the costs to their shareholders and customers (what the strikers want).

3) Eliminate all welfare and wage regulations, and if people can't make themselves productive enough to survive, let them die (something most people would find morally unacceptable).

4) Stop importing cheap labor from the global market. Allow the forces of supply and demand to equilibrate locally as they should. Rely on the labor market in the same market you're selling your goods rather than sidestepping that labor market in favor of Mexico's.

Gonna leave this here...




"Despite their numbers, their pussyness means I was barely hurt. 2 black eyes and a cut nose, no big deal. I could sense the fear in them so as they were walking I chased them down and told them to "go home". They all left like little girls." - Revelations 21:4
08-29-2013 01:06 AM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Tex Pro Offline
Ostrich
****
Gold Member

Posts: 2,131
Joined: Jun 2012
Reputation: 17
Post: #53
RE: Fast food workers to strike. Demand $15/hr
(08-29-2013 01:04 AM)Therapsid Wrote:  
(08-29-2013 12:56 AM)Bolthouse Wrote:  
(08-29-2013 12:40 AM)Therapsid Wrote:  On the other hand, it would encourage the utilization of labor-saving technology. Fast food itself is the product of such technology.
(snip)
So long as corporations can rely upon an endless reservoir of cheap labor they may not feel an incentive to invest in new productive methods.

This has already begun with a few McDonalds having their drive through window outsourced to the Philippines and other fast food restaurants implementing touch-screen ordering systems.

Even at current wages, fast food labor isn't necessarily cheap. Sooner or later one of the big chains will perfect the labor-free assembly line of a hamburger going from the freezer to the customer's tray.

Good. If a minimum wage increase hastens the automation of fast food, it could be a net benefit to society.

The ancient Greek scientist Hero of Alexandria developed primitive steam engines two thousand years ago.

We could have had the industrial revolution during the heyday of the Roman Empire. Imagine how advanced civilization would be today!

But slave labor was so available it didn't make sense to invest in such technologies. Note that medieval Europe did away with slavery by and large, and that moreover in England where the industrial revolution began serfdom had also been extinguished for centuries in favor of free labor.

My only question about automation is this: what do you do with the people who no longer have jobs?

Maybe I am being paranoid, but I am pretty sure the day most low-skilled jobs are automated in the USA is the day we implement a "guaranteed minimum income" in the USA.
08-29-2013 01:09 AM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[-] The following 1 user Likes Tex Pro's post:
CJ_W
Sonsowey Offline
Hummingbird
*****
Gold Member

Posts: 3,303
Joined: May 2010
Reputation: 52
Post: #54
RE: Fast food workers to strike. Demand $15/hr
Would be marvelous to see these people paid well.

Doubling the minimum wage would be a great way to get the economy moving again, redistributing money from the rich who stuff it under their mattresses to the poor who will of course spend it.
08-29-2013 01:11 AM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[-] The following 1 user Likes Sonsowey's post:
Parlay44
Wadsworth Offline
Kingfisher
***

Posts: 597
Joined: Mar 2013
Reputation: 7
Post: #55
RE: Fast food workers to strike. Demand $15/hr
(08-29-2013 01:02 AM)Hades Wrote:  Profit margins with cheap fast food is pretty much shit. You raise the minimum fast food wage to something like 15 an hour and they're just going to slash hours and fire off the non-essential employees. It's already to the point where it's impossible to do overtime.
If this manages to get through it's a guarantee that the population of barely-employables will go up significantly while all "full-timers" enjoy a 28 hour work week. Where you once had a thousand jobs suddenly you find about five-hundred "half" jobs and maybe a hundred part-time positions.

All this means is that there is no market for the bullshit they're selling.

Using market conditions in U.S.A. in terms of supply/demand for fast food, while using market conditions in Mexico in terms of supply/demand for labor is fundamentally broken.

Introducing a price floor in terms of wage isn't going to fix the system, it's merely going to shift market prices up.
08-29-2013 01:14 AM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
la_mode Offline
Banned

Posts: 851
Joined: Jul 2013
Post: #56
RE: Fast food workers to strike. Demand $15/hr
Lower-wage jobs in the US are basically indentured servitude. One would think by now, with all technological advancements, they'd find a way to make it work, so everyone could earn a living wage without the US having to turn to communism. Maybe set up some semi-communism, where the government opens up factories (I'll explain how this could be done) that pay minimum $20 per hour to anyone who wants to do it.

Economic theory is just that - theory, and will always be theory.

What works on paper has never worked in reality (regardless of what Keynes/Friedman say), the country has simply been in a bad streak of the "economic crapshoot" for too long now.

There's something called "the buffer". Meaning, there's always money for war, money for jails, money for police, money for schools, you get the point. This money is intentionally hoarded simply for the sake of doing so. The reason McDonalds never runs out of Big Macs is because of their "buffer stock". The buffer is the bedrock of all money in the US, by far the world's richest country. The buffer stock is infinite and your tax dollars will continue to make sure of that.

The fact is, the US could fund as many wars as they wanted to, thanks to the neverending buffer. All that stuff about "the US owes China billions, its Obama's fault, etc" are about as true as "War makes the economy go up".
08-29-2013 01:17 AM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Sonsowey Offline
Hummingbird
*****
Gold Member

Posts: 3,303
Joined: May 2010
Reputation: 52
Post: #57
RE: Fast food workers to strike. Demand $15/hr
(08-29-2013 01:14 AM)Wadsworth Wrote:  Introducing a price floor in terms of wage isn't going to fix the system, it's merely going to shift market prices up.

Increasing the price of McDonald's would only be a net positive. It would mean less McDonald's consumed, less McDonald's related diseases contracted, less obesity, less ugliness, and perhaps they'd even have to up the quality of their food to attract people to pay for it.
08-29-2013 01:18 AM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[-] The following 3 users Like Sonsowey's post:
Tex Pro, Gopher, Bad Hussar
Wadsworth Offline
Kingfisher
***

Posts: 597
Joined: Mar 2013
Reputation: 7
Post: #58
RE: Fast food workers to strike. Demand $15/hr
(08-29-2013 01:18 AM)Sonsowey Wrote:  
(08-29-2013 01:14 AM)Wadsworth Wrote:  Introducing a price floor in terms of wage isn't going to fix the system, it's merely going to shift market prices up.

Increasing the price of McDonald's would only be a net positive. It would mean less McDonald's consumed, less McDonald's related diseases contracted, less obesity, less ugliness, and perhaps they'd even have to up the quality of their food to attract people to pay for it.

It wouldn't change anything. You need to think of it in terms of macroeconomics. Creating a price floor for labor will simply shift prices up. Prices in all sectors will begin trending up. Wages increase to compensate. After all the dust settles, you've merely reached a new equilibrium, except that you've inflated the dollar.

And fatties are still eating as much McDonalds as they were before.
(This post was last modified: 08-29-2013 01:24 AM by Wadsworth.)
08-29-2013 01:20 AM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Tex Pro Offline
Ostrich
****
Gold Member

Posts: 2,131
Joined: Jun 2012
Reputation: 17
Post: #59
RE: Fast food workers to strike. Demand $15/hr
(08-29-2013 01:18 AM)Sonsowey Wrote:  
(08-29-2013 01:14 AM)Wadsworth Wrote:  Introducing a price floor in terms of wage isn't going to fix the system, it's merely going to shift market prices up.

Increasing the price of McDonald's would only be a net positive. It would mean less McDonald's consumed, less McDonald's related diseases contracted, less obesity, less ugliness, and perhaps they'd even have to up the quality of their food to attract people to pay for it.

Less McDonald's (and less fast food in general) would be a great thing. American women's waists would shrink.
08-29-2013 01:21 AM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Sonsowey Offline
Hummingbird
*****
Gold Member

Posts: 3,303
Joined: May 2010
Reputation: 52
Post: #60
RE: Fast food workers to strike. Demand $15/hr
(08-29-2013 01:09 AM)The Texas Prophet Wrote:  Maybe I am being paranoid, but I am pretty sure the day most low-skilled jobs are automated in the USA is the day we implement a "guaranteed minimum income" in the USA.

We should have done this a long time ago, along with universal healthcare, etc.

Our government has the capacity to provide for our citizens but simply chooses not to at any level that could lead to dignity. We choose to spend ridiculous amounts of money to bail out financial institutions and build bombs to drop on any Muslim country we can find, but we can't bear the thought of helping our own citizens live a life of dignity.

We could invest more in education, make universities free, provide technical training for trades, any of it. But instead we'll blow billions making sure Wall St. executives get their bonuses and that we bomb Syria.

We have the means to provide for ourselves, but those in charge simply don't want to.
08-29-2013 01:25 AM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Tex Pro Offline
Ostrich
****
Gold Member

Posts: 2,131
Joined: Jun 2012
Reputation: 17
Post: #61
RE: Fast food workers to strike. Demand $15/hr
(08-29-2013 01:20 AM)Wadsworth Wrote:  
(08-29-2013 01:18 AM)Sonsowey Wrote:  
(08-29-2013 01:14 AM)Wadsworth Wrote:  Introducing a price floor in terms of wage isn't going to fix the system, it's merely going to shift market prices up.

Increasing the price of McDonald's would only be a net positive. It would mean less McDonald's consumed, less McDonald's related diseases contracted, less obesity, less ugliness, and perhaps they'd even have to up the quality of their food to attract people to pay for it.

It wouldn't change anything. You need to think of it in terms of macroeconomics. Creating a price floor for labor will simply shift prices up. Prices in all sectors will begin trending up. Wages increase to compensate. After all the dust settles, you've merely reached a new equilibrium, except that you've inflated the dollar.

And fatties are still eating as much McDonalds as they were before.

Fast food restaurants would have more incentive to automate, though, if the cost of automation comes out to less than hiring workers. This is the one real problem with raising the cost of labor: it makes automation more attractive.
(This post was last modified: 08-29-2013 01:28 AM by Tex Pro.)
08-29-2013 01:27 AM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[-] The following 1 user Likes Tex Pro's post:
Wadsworth
Hades Offline
Banned

Posts: 3,652
Joined: Feb 2012
Post: #62
RE: Fast food workers to strike. Demand $15/hr
(08-29-2013 01:14 AM)Wadsworth Wrote:  
(08-29-2013 01:02 AM)Hades Wrote:  Profit margins with cheap fast food is pretty much shit. You raise the minimum fast food wage to something like 15 an hour and they're just going to slash hours and fire off the non-essential employees. It's already to the point where it's impossible to do overtime.
If this manages to get through it's a guarantee that the population of barely-employables will go up significantly while all "full-timers" enjoy a 28 hour work week. Where you once had a thousand jobs suddenly you find about five-hundred "half" jobs and maybe a hundred part-time positions.

All this means is that there is no market for the bullshit they're selling.

Using market conditions in U.S.A. in terms of supply/demand for fast food, while using market conditions in Mexico in terms of supply/demand for labor is fundamentally broken.

Introducing a price floor in terms of wage isn't going to fix the system, it's merely going to shift market prices up.

I saw your other post which clarified on this one.

Yes it's going to shift market prices up, but the last time the minimum wage went from something like $5.20 to $7.25 in my state, this is exactly what happened, McDumpster's fired a bunch of shitheads, put out "we're hiring" signs to take advantage of the huge turnover with new guys and never having to pay benefits to non-fulltimers who are going to quit after three months, slashed hours down to an average of about 30-35 hours per week, made it impossible to schedule yourself for overtime, hired a bunch of part-timers, and overall reduced the number of people working at these places.

The net benefit for each 'full-time' employee working there was almost nothing from where it was previously, maybe an extra ten or twenty bucks per month -- and now fewer people work there.

That's the gist of it, it happened before, now if it happens to a serious degree (doubled wages?!) they're just going to go full retard on their old policy and probably just hire a shitload of part-timers. These morons are campaigning for a "living wage" at an unskilled job and are going to end up, dick in hand, with a lot of free time and no benefits.
(This post was last modified: 08-29-2013 01:31 AM by Hades.)
08-29-2013 01:30 AM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Parlay44 Offline
Peacock
******
Gold Member

Posts: 6,600
Joined: Aug 2011
Reputation: 67
Post: #63
RE: Fast food workers to strike. Demand $15/hr
(08-29-2013 01:27 AM)The Texas Prophet Wrote:  
(08-29-2013 01:20 AM)Wadsworth Wrote:  
(08-29-2013 01:18 AM)Sonsowey Wrote:  
(08-29-2013 01:14 AM)Wadsworth Wrote:  Introducing a price floor in terms of wage isn't going to fix the system, it's merely going to shift market prices up.

Increasing the price of McDonald's would only be a net positive. It would mean less McDonald's consumed, less McDonald's related diseases contracted, less obesity, less ugliness, and perhaps they'd even have to up the quality of their food to attract people to pay for it.

It wouldn't change anything. You need to think of it in terms of macroeconomics. Creating a price floor for labor will simply shift prices up. Prices in all sectors will begin trending up. Wages increase to compensate. After all the dust settles, you've merely reached a new equilibrium, except that you've inflated the dollar.

And fatties are still eating as much McDonalds as they were before.

Fast food restaurants would have more incentive to automate, though, if the cost of automation comes out to less than hiring workers. This is the one real problem with raising the cost of labor: it makes automation more attractive.


Yeah I'm waiting to see 3D printed cheeseburgers. I'm sure it's coming Laugh

Team Nachos
08-29-2013 01:31 AM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Gopher Offline
Woodpecker
**

Posts: 265
Joined: May 2013
Reputation: 2
Post: #64
RE: Fast food workers to strike. Demand $15/hr
(08-29-2013 01:25 AM)Sonsowey Wrote:  
(08-29-2013 01:09 AM)The Texas Prophet Wrote:  Maybe I am being paranoid, but I am pretty sure the day most low-skilled jobs are automated in the USA is the day we implement a "guaranteed minimum income" in the USA.

We should have done this a long time ago, along with universal healthcare, etc.

Our government has the capacity to provide for our citizens but simply chooses not to at any level that could lead to dignity. We choose to spend ridiculous amounts of money to bail out financial institutions and build bombs to drop on any Muslim country we can find, but we can't bear the thought of helping our own citizens live a life of dignity.

We could invest more in education, make universities free, provide technical training for trades, any of it. But instead we'll blow billions making sure Wall St. executives get their bonuses and that we bomb Syria.

We have the means to provide for ourselves, but those in charge simply don't want to.

We don't have the capacity to even do what we do now. Real US debt, which includes total unfunded liabilities, (welfare, social security, medicare, etc.) is being calculated at a staggering $70 trillion. All we are doing is borrowing the money and creating an inevitable disaster.

Source
Another source
(This post was last modified: 08-29-2013 01:33 AM by Gopher.)
08-29-2013 01:32 AM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Therapsid Offline
Pelican
****

Posts: 1,357
Joined: Sep 2012
Reputation: 17
Post: #65
RE: Fast food workers to strike. Demand $15/hr
(08-29-2013 01:27 AM)The Texas Prophet Wrote:  
(08-29-2013 01:20 AM)Wadsworth Wrote:  
(08-29-2013 01:18 AM)Sonsowey Wrote:  
(08-29-2013 01:14 AM)Wadsworth Wrote:  Introducing a price floor in terms of wage isn't going to fix the system, it's merely going to shift market prices up.

Increasing the price of McDonald's would only be a net positive. It would mean less McDonald's consumed, less McDonald's related diseases contracted, less obesity, less ugliness, and perhaps they'd even have to up the quality of their food to attract people to pay for it.

It wouldn't change anything. You need to think of it in terms of macroeconomics. Creating a price floor for labor will simply shift prices up. Prices in all sectors will begin trending up. Wages increase to compensate. After all the dust settles, you've merely reached a new equilibrium, except that you've inflated the dollar.

And fatties are still eating as much McDonalds as they were before.

Fast food restaurants would have more incentive to automate, though, if the cost of automation comes out to less than hiring workers. This is the one real problem with raising the cost of labor: it makes automation more attractive.

Why is automation a problem?

In manufacturing hardly anyone still seriously contends that automation is a problem in itself.
08-29-2013 01:32 AM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Wadsworth Offline
Kingfisher
***

Posts: 597
Joined: Mar 2013
Reputation: 7
Post: #66
RE: Fast food workers to strike. Demand $15/hr
(08-29-2013 01:27 AM)The Texas Prophet Wrote:  
(08-29-2013 01:20 AM)Wadsworth Wrote:  
(08-29-2013 01:18 AM)Sonsowey Wrote:  
(08-29-2013 01:14 AM)Wadsworth Wrote:  Introducing a price floor in terms of wage isn't going to fix the system, it's merely going to shift market prices up.

Increasing the price of McDonald's would only be a net positive. It would mean less McDonald's consumed, less McDonald's related diseases contracted, less obesity, less ugliness, and perhaps they'd even have to up the quality of their food to attract people to pay for it.

It wouldn't change anything. You need to think of it in terms of macroeconomics. Creating a price floor for labor will simply shift prices up. Prices in all sectors will begin trending up. Wages increase to compensate. After all the dust settles, you've merely reached a new equilibrium, except that you've inflated the dollar.

And fatties are still eating as much McDonalds as they were before.

Fast food restaurants would have more incentive to automate, though, if the cost of automation comes out to less than hiring workers. This is the one real problem with raising the cost of labor: it makes automation more attractive.

Good point, this might happen faster than the marketplace reaching a new equilibrium. But this is a good point particularly because it demonstrates that price floors and price ceilings rarely do what you want them to. I'm all in favor of increasing the standard of living and putting more money in people's pockets, but I think there are more effective ways than trying to jack up minimum wage.

(08-29-2013 01:30 AM)Hades Wrote:  
(08-29-2013 01:14 AM)Wadsworth Wrote:  
(08-29-2013 01:02 AM)Hades Wrote:  Profit margins with cheap fast food is pretty much shit. You raise the minimum fast food wage to something like 15 an hour and they're just going to slash hours and fire off the non-essential employees. It's already to the point where it's impossible to do overtime.
If this manages to get through it's a guarantee that the population of barely-employables will go up significantly while all "full-timers" enjoy a 28 hour work week. Where you once had a thousand jobs suddenly you find about five-hundred "half" jobs and maybe a hundred part-time positions.

All this means is that there is no market for the bullshit they're selling.

Using market conditions in U.S.A. in terms of supply/demand for fast food, while using market conditions in Mexico in terms of supply/demand for labor is fundamentally broken.

Introducing a price floor in terms of wage isn't going to fix the system, it's merely going to shift market prices up.

I saw your other post which clarified on this one.

Yes it's going to shift market prices up, but the last time the minimum wage went from something like $5.20 to $7.25 in my state, this is exactly what happened, McDumpster's fired a bunch of shitheads, put out "we're hiring" signs to take advantage of the huge turnover with new guys and never having to pay benefits to non-fulltimers who are going to quit after three months, slashed hours down to an average of about 30-35 hours per week, made it impossible to schedule yourself for overtime, hired a bunch of part-timers, and overall reduced the number of people working at these places.

The net benefit for each 'full-time' employee working there was almost nothing from where it was previously, maybe an extra ten or twenty bucks per month -- and now fewer people work there.

That's the gist of it, it happened before, now if it happens to a serious degree (doubled wages?!) they're just going to go full retard on their old policy and probably just hire a shitload of part-timers. These morons are campaigning for a "living wage" at an unskilled job and are going to end up, dick in hand, with a lot of free time and no benefits.

Exactly, the price floor didn't do what people hoped it would. The market responded in a different way. I'm all in favor of people pocketing more money for their labor, but generally I think minimum wage laws are a bad way to make it happen.
(This post was last modified: 08-29-2013 01:37 AM by Wadsworth.)
08-29-2013 01:33 AM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[-] The following 1 user Likes Wadsworth's post:
CJ_W
Tex Pro Offline
Ostrich
****
Gold Member

Posts: 2,131
Joined: Jun 2012
Reputation: 17
Post: #67
RE: Fast food workers to strike. Demand $15/hr
(08-29-2013 01:31 AM)Parlay44 Wrote:  
(08-29-2013 01:27 AM)The Texas Prophet Wrote:  
(08-29-2013 01:20 AM)Wadsworth Wrote:  
(08-29-2013 01:18 AM)Sonsowey Wrote:  
(08-29-2013 01:14 AM)Wadsworth Wrote:  Introducing a price floor in terms of wage isn't going to fix the system, it's merely going to shift market prices up.

Increasing the price of McDonald's would only be a net positive. It would mean less McDonald's consumed, less McDonald's related diseases contracted, less obesity, less ugliness, and perhaps they'd even have to up the quality of their food to attract people to pay for it.

It wouldn't change anything. You need to think of it in terms of macroeconomics. Creating a price floor for labor will simply shift prices up. Prices in all sectors will begin trending up. Wages increase to compensate. After all the dust settles, you've merely reached a new equilibrium, except that you've inflated the dollar.

And fatties are still eating as much McDonalds as they were before.

Fast food restaurants would have more incentive to automate, though, if the cost of automation comes out to less than hiring workers. This is the one real problem with raising the cost of labor: it makes automation more attractive.


Yeah I'm waiting to see 3D printed cheeseburgers. I'm sure it's coming Laugh

NASA and a Texas company are working on printing 3D foods:

http://www.nasa.gov/directorates/spacete...h7rjT_lfms
08-29-2013 01:36 AM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[-] The following 1 user Likes Tex Pro's post:
Parlay44
Sonsowey Offline
Hummingbird
*****
Gold Member

Posts: 3,303
Joined: May 2010
Reputation: 52
Post: #68
RE: Fast food workers to strike. Demand $15/hr
(08-29-2013 01:20 AM)Wadsworth Wrote:  It wouldn't change anything. You need to think of it in terms of macroeconomics. Creating a price floor for labor will simply shift prices up. Prices in all sectors will begin trending up. Wages increase to compensate. After all the dust settles, you've merely reached a new equilibrium, except that you've inflated the dollar.

And fatties are still eating as much McDonalds as they were before.

Your macroeconomic thinking is flawed. Actual research shows that increasing the minimum wage does not have this effect. Worker productivity has doubled since the 60s yet our minimum wage is effectively lower than it was then.

http://stateofworkingamerica.org/chart/s...imum-wage/

Raising the minimum wage doesn't increase unemployment, and doesn't have disastrous effects on inflation

http://www.cepr.net/documents/publicatio...013-02.pdf

Increasing the minimum wage of the poorest won't cause the entire economy to experience huge inflation. They recieve such a pittance of our national income right now. Increasing it is hardly a drop in the bucket.

From the above link:

"Despite the different methodologies, data periods
and data sources, most studies reviewed above found that a 10% US minimum wage increase raises
food prices by no more than 4% and overall prices by no more than 0.4%"; and "[t]he main policy
recommendation deriving from such findings is that policy makers can use the minimum wage to
increase the wages of the poor, without destroying too many jobs or causing too much inflation."
(This post was last modified: 08-29-2013 01:37 AM by Sonsowey.)
08-29-2013 01:36 AM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Sonsowey Offline
Hummingbird
*****
Gold Member

Posts: 3,303
Joined: May 2010
Reputation: 52
Post: #69
RE: Fast food workers to strike. Demand $15/hr
(08-29-2013 01:32 AM)Gopher Wrote:  
(08-29-2013 01:25 AM)Sonsowey Wrote:  
(08-29-2013 01:09 AM)The Texas Prophet Wrote:  Maybe I am being paranoid, but I am pretty sure the day most low-skilled jobs are automated in the USA is the day we implement a "guaranteed minimum income" in the USA.

We should have done this a long time ago, along with universal healthcare, etc.

Our government has the capacity to provide for our citizens but simply chooses not to at any level that could lead to dignity. We choose to spend ridiculous amounts of money to bail out financial institutions and build bombs to drop on any Muslim country we can find, but we can't bear the thought of helping our own citizens live a life of dignity.

We could invest more in education, make universities free, provide technical training for trades, any of it. But instead we'll blow billions making sure Wall St. executives get their bonuses and that we bomb Syria.

We have the means to provide for ourselves, but those in charge simply don't want to.

We don't have the capacity to even do what we do now. Real US debt, which includes total unfunded liabilities, (welfare, social security, medicare, etc.) is being calculated at a staggering $70 trillion. All we are doing is borrowing the money and creating an inevitable disaster.

Source
Another source

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/02/opinio...-debt.html

Those concerns are complete nonsense.

The United States doesn't face a debt crisis. Interest rates are perpetually low. We are not going to default. Our deficit is falling rapidly.

Our military spending is out of control, our healthcare spending is way too high because of our stupid system that costs more than Europe's. But overall our level of government spending is more than manageable, as evidenced by the fact that interest rates on our bonds are terribly low.
08-29-2013 01:41 AM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[-] The following 1 user Likes Sonsowey's post:
Handsome Creepy Eel
Sonsowey Offline
Hummingbird
*****
Gold Member

Posts: 3,303
Joined: May 2010
Reputation: 52
Post: #70
RE: Fast food workers to strike. Demand $15/hr
It would probably be good to pursue national policies that just push McDonald's and all the rest out of business. Whatever policies we can take up to have that result would easily give our country and extra few years of healthy life expectancy, and probably decrease our addiction to prescription drugs appreciably.
08-29-2013 01:43 AM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Wadsworth Offline
Kingfisher
***

Posts: 597
Joined: Mar 2013
Reputation: 7
Post: #71
RE: Fast food workers to strike. Demand $15/hr
(08-29-2013 01:36 AM)Sonsowey Wrote:  
(08-29-2013 01:20 AM)Wadsworth Wrote:  It wouldn't change anything. You need to think of it in terms of macroeconomics. Creating a price floor for labor will simply shift prices up. Prices in all sectors will begin trending up. Wages increase to compensate. After all the dust settles, you've merely reached a new equilibrium, except that you've inflated the dollar.

And fatties are still eating as much McDonalds as they were before.

Your macroeconomic thinking is flawed. Actual research shows that increasing the minimum wage does not have this effect. Worker productivity has doubled since the 60s yet our minimum wage is effectively lower than it was then.

http://stateofworkingamerica.org/chart/s...imum-wage/

Raising the minimum wage doesn't increase unemployment, and doesn't have disastrous effects on inflation

http://www.cepr.net/documents/publicatio...013-02.pdf

Increasing the minimum wage of the poorest won't cause the entire economy to experience huge inflation. They recieve such a pittance of our national income right now. Increasing it is hardly a drop in the bucket.

From the above link:

"Despite the different methodologies, data periods
and data sources, most studies reviewed above found that a 10% US minimum wage increase raises
food prices by no more than 4% and overall prices by no more than 0.4%"; and "[t]he main policy
recommendation deriving from such findings is that policy makers can use the minimum wage to
increase the wages of the poor, without destroying too many jobs or causing too much inflation."

The executive summary from the second link says the following:

"The weight of that evidence points to little or no employment response to modest increases in the minimum wage. The report reviews evidence on eleven possible adjustments to minimum-wage increases that may help to explain why the measured employment effects are so consistently small. The strongest evidence suggests that the most important channels of adjustment are: reductions in labor turnover; improvements in organizational efficiency; reductions in wages of higher earners ("wage compression"); and small price increases. Given the relatively small cost to employers of modest increases in the minimum wage, these adjustment mechanisms appear to be more than sufficient to avoid employment losses, even for employers with alarge share of low-wage workers."

Which is exactly my point about price floors not targeting the actual problem.
(This post was last modified: 08-29-2013 01:46 AM by Wadsworth.)
08-29-2013 01:44 AM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Peregrine Offline
Pelican
****
Gold Member

Posts: 1,493
Joined: Mar 2013
Reputation: 67
Post: #72
RE: Fast food workers to strike. Demand $15/hr
(08-29-2013 01:43 AM)Sonsowey Wrote:  It would probably be good to pursue national policies that just push McDonald's and all the rest out of business. Whatever policies we can take up to have that result would easily give our country and extra few years of healthy life expectancy, and probably decrease our addiction to prescription drugs appreciably.

America is a country that loves unhealthy junk food (full disclosure: I had two Whoppers today). You can't legislate that away.
08-29-2013 01:47 AM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
scorpion Offline
Ostrich
****
Gold Member

Posts: 2,632
Joined: Sep 2012
Reputation: 264
Post: #73
RE: Fast food workers to strike. Demand $15/hr
(08-29-2013 12:41 AM)Bolthouse Wrote:  Blaming it on low IQ excuses their laziness and ungratefulness. How is it that illegals from Mexico, who come here with 8 kids and knowing no English, manage to survive on a minimum wage?

Is it due to their high IQ? Or perhaps their lack of entitlement?

You're coming across as the caricature of a big business Republican. You sound like Larry Kudlow, for fuck's sake. Their entitlement? To what, exactly? A basic standard of living in the year 2013 in the wealthiest and most powerful country to ever exist? Is that too much to ask?

As I pointed out to Gopher, it's easy to pass moral judgment on those beneath you and assume yourself to be superior by virtue of your hard work alone. You are painting the poor as lazy, ungrateful and entitled. But that's simply not fair.

What if I called you a lazy sack of shit, and a complete failure in life because you're unable to compete in the NBA or the NFL? Do you think maybe if you worked harder you could start for the Knicks? That wouldn't really be fair of me, would it? Because obviously, not everyone is capable of playing in the NBA. But you seem to think that everyone is capable of performing at the same level you are, by virtue of hard work alone.

You have advantages you aren't accounting for, innate advantages than many people lack. That's just reality. That doesn't mean you have to feel guilty about it, but it should mean that you have enough perspective and wisdom to understand that it's not as simple as people "being lazy and entitled" when they are unable to compete in a modern, advanced economy.

"For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.” - Romans 8:18
08-29-2013 01:47 AM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[-] The following 3 users Like scorpion's post:
Excelsior, LeBeau, Matt Forney
Gopher Offline
Woodpecker
**

Posts: 265
Joined: May 2013
Reputation: 2
Post: #74
RE: Fast food workers to strike. Demand $15/hr
(08-29-2013 01:41 AM)Sonsowey Wrote:  
(08-29-2013 01:32 AM)Gopher Wrote:  
(08-29-2013 01:25 AM)Sonsowey Wrote:  
(08-29-2013 01:09 AM)The Texas Prophet Wrote:  Maybe I am being paranoid, but I am pretty sure the day most low-skilled jobs are automated in the USA is the day we implement a "guaranteed minimum income" in the USA.

We should have done this a long time ago, along with universal healthcare, etc.

Our government has the capacity to provide for our citizens but simply chooses not to at any level that could lead to dignity. We choose to spend ridiculous amounts of money to bail out financial institutions and build bombs to drop on any Muslim country we can find, but we can't bear the thought of helping our own citizens live a life of dignity.

We could invest more in education, make universities free, provide technical training for trades, any of it. But instead we'll blow billions making sure Wall St. executives get their bonuses and that we bomb Syria.

We have the means to provide for ourselves, but those in charge simply don't want to.

We don't have the capacity to even do what we do now. Real US debt, which includes total unfunded liabilities, (welfare, social security, medicare, etc.) is being calculated at a staggering $70 trillion. All we are doing is borrowing the money and creating an inevitable disaster.

Source
Another source

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/02/opinio...-debt.html

Those concerns are complete nonsense.

The United States doesn't face a debt crisis. Interest rates are perpetually low. We are not going to default. Our deficit is falling rapidly.

Our military spending is out of control, our healthcare spending is way too high because of our stupid system that costs more than Europe's. But overall our level of government spending is more than manageable, as evidenced by the fact that interest rates on our bonds are terribly low.
Captain Capitalism explains Paul Krugman
08-29-2013 01:50 AM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Peregrine Offline
Pelican
****
Gold Member

Posts: 1,493
Joined: Mar 2013
Reputation: 67
Post: #75
RE: Fast food workers to strike. Demand $15/hr
Good point, scorpion. Ms. Davis is spending money on cable TV and taxi rides though, which diminishes my sympathy. That said, I can't take credit for my frugal nature. That was a value instilled in me by my parents. If I was raised differently (or not raised at all), perhaps I'd be wasting money that I could ill afford to. Or maybe I wouldn't.

Depends on how much agency/responsibility you want to assign to the individual.
08-29-2013 01:54 AM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply 


Forum Jump:


User(s) browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)

Contact Us | RooshV.com | Return to Top | Return to Content | Mobile Version | RSS Syndication