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Testosterone injections
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ThrustMaster Offline
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Post: #601
RE: TESTOSTERONE injections
Your high SHBG is the issue with your FT. Pardon if this has been mentioned and I missed it. Try fish oil, magnesium, zinc, enough carbs, vitamin d3 to get that down. SHBG binds your T.
02-21-2016 09:24 PM
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MiscBrah Offline
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Post: #602
RE: TESTOSTERONE injections
(02-21-2016 07:55 PM)CaptainChardonnay Wrote:  I'm taking a 12, maybe 14 week steroid cycle of 250mg Test E every 3.5 days, HCG 250iu every 3.5 days, and Arimidex EOD. I did a lot of research on the subject before hand so if anything has any questions then ask a way.

Storm I recommend you maybe look into trying Test E instead of Cyp, see how you feel.

Why do you recommend Test E over Cyp?

Also, I hope you're not cycling. The benefits of such a small dose (250mg is really low for a blast, I wouldn't go lower than 400mg personally) are far outweighed by the negatives.

Please tell me youre not shutting down your natural test for the small gains 250mg will give you.
02-21-2016 10:39 PM
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CaptainChardonnay Away
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Post: #603
RE: TESTOSTERONE injections
I'm taking 500mg/wk using Test E so 250mg every 3.5 days, so twice a wk. Because Test E has a shorter half life than Test C, it needs to be injected more frequently. Yeah 400mg/wk is the minimum for a steroid cycle. The most I've heard for TRT is either 200-250mg/wk.

Between Test C and E other than 1 injection per wk compared to 2 times a wk, the difference between the two is very negligible but I've read many people saying that they get different side effects from Test E compared to Test C so it really comes down to personal preference. I recommend you try both and see which one you like more, if you even feel a difference between the two. Obviously C is more convenient since you'll just need to inject once a wk instead of twice a wk (if you were to use Test E).

Here is some info on the difference between the various esters.
http://forums.steroid.com/anabolic-stero...e-c-p.html

Quote:The enanthate ester is in fact slightly smaller than cypionate, and it therefore releases a small (perhaps a few milligrams) amount of steroid more in comparison.

Quote:Although in medicine enanthate compounds are often injected on a bi-weekly or monthly basis, athletes will inject at least weekly to help maintain a uniform blood level.

While reading about Sustanon, I read that because its a combination of different esters that your blood levels can become uneven with the various esters being absorbed into your body. The idea behind Sustanon is that you can take 1 injection for example once a month instead of if you were to use Test C (you would need to take 1 injection a wk) or Test E (2 injections a wk). This makes things more convenient but from what I read about it, it doesn't always work as advertised.

I have a hypothesis that with Test C injecting on Monday would mean that the testosterone in your blood would be slightly lower near the end of the wk (Saturday, Sunday). To me Test E would keep things relatively more stable throughout the week with the added inconvenience of one more injection needed. I do realize that C has a longer half life than E but as I said above this is a personal theory.

Test P would be the quickest acting but due to it's short half life, injecting EOD (every other day) would be a pain in the ass and as a general rule, you should let an injection site rest for a wk before injecting in it again, so with Test P, you would need to be injecting all over difference muscles (another pain in the ass). Test E I think is a good compromise between Test C and P.

Information about the Endocrine system and how steroids affect you:
http://forums.steroid.com/anabolic-stero...t-you.html

Quote:Stability is vital for your endocrine system. For everything actually. Even in a state of "shut down", it's still important to maintain stable blood levels. When you are planning your cycle, you need to choose your doses and stick to them. (EXCEPTIONS TO COME). If you plan on a 500 mg per week cycle, you need to do 2 things. First, you need to administer this dose twice weekly. This will prevent unwanted spikes in your serum levels. The next thing is to stick to that dose. Most users become very impatient around the 4th week and we see a ton of threads titles "4th week and I don't feel anything". These folks have a terrible habit of increasing their doses to 600, then 750 mg, etc... This will drive your brain crazy. Stop doing that. If you run an entire cycle and your results are poor, it's then time to have a professional evaluate your diet.

Storm you don't need to worry about this last part, but I want to address "shut down". @MiscBrah, I'm only going to be experiencing a partial shut down because I'm taking 250 IUs of hCG twice a wk, SubQ, along with my Test E injections. It wont be a full shut down because of the hCG and I'll know because my balls will still be full.

http://forums.steroid.com/anabolic-stero...tions.html

Quote:We know that steroids shut down production of LH at the pituitary. This means you no longer produce natural testosterone because there's nothing to stimulate your Leydig Cells in the testes. The reason your testicals normally look "full", is because they're loaded with testosterone. When your natural testosterone production is suppressed, your testes atrophy (shrink), because they're empty. Make sense?

Injecting hCG results in a "mimicked" LH. So although your pituitary gland is not secreting LH, your leydig cells, in the presence of hCG, are stimulated by the mimicked LH and begin to produce testosterone. So there's your solution for preventing testicular atrophy while on cycle.

If anyone is wondering this is the protocol I am following:
http://forums.steroid.com/anabolic-stero...cycle.html

Monday will be the beginning of wk 5 for me. So far I have experienced no adverse side effects. There was some PIP (post injection pain) when I first injected but now I don't get it anymore. I do think my mood is more elevated. I'm expecting to experience a 5-20% increase in strength around wk 6.
02-22-2016 12:08 AM
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MiscBrah Offline
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Post: #604
RE: TESTOSTERONE injections
Ah my bad bro I read your post wrong. I thought you were taking 250mg a week

That looks much better
(This post was last modified: 02-22-2016 12:41 AM by MiscBrah.)
02-22-2016 12:30 AM
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CaptainChardonnay Away
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Post: #605
RE: TESTOSTERONE injections
^No problem man
02-22-2016 01:48 AM
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Mr. Pink Offline
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Post: #606
RE: TESTOSTERONE injections
I was in denial but PhDre's posts in a recent thread of mine forced me to acknowledge that I almost certainly have an endocrine issue that I exasperated with my frequent binge drinking and I need to deal with it ASAP.

11 months ago, my total T was 537.5 and my free T was 13.6.

As of last month, my total T is 497, my free T is 7.2, TSH is 1.7, T4 is 124.5, T3 is 1.6, and estradiol is 17.34. Measured early in the morning both times.

I'm 25 years old... I feel like I'm going through life with 100 lbs strapped to each of my ankles. My libido is shit and I've gone limp fucking a girl with 100mg of Sildenafil coursing through my veins enough times to know something is up. I know my nutrition and have a solid diet filled with meat, fish, eggs, vegetables, and fruit. I don't eat garbage, avoid shit oils, drink only water and green tea. I take D3 and a quality fish oil daily. I have a super thin frame but have been lifting for two and a half years now and have a decent physique.

As far as my alcohol intake; the good news is I only drink straight vodka or vodka waters, I never drink two nights in a row, and I cram protein/veggies + keep fats/carbs low on drinking days but the bad news is when I do drink I drink heavy and my tolerance is astronomically high. Truth is I've been dependent on the drug for a long time now but this is the wake up call I desperately needed and I'm cutting that shit out cold turkey.

So aside from dropping alcohol completely I've got a quality daily multi on the way and also a light box (thanks to LOZ) so that I can get my sleep hygiene on point. My question for you fine gents is where do I go from here? I'm unfortunately in Asia right now and Dr. Mariano (along with every other top specialist) is on the other side of the world. Could I get the complete blood work done here somewhere and then consult someone like Mariano over the phone to get this sorted or can this kind of thing only be taken care of by getting physically treated by the man himself?
(This post was last modified: 02-23-2016 11:26 AM by Mr. Pink.)
02-23-2016 11:15 AM
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PhDre Offline
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Post: #607
RE: TESTOSTERONE injections
Mr. Pink, I’m very happy that you decided against the steroid cycle and that you are investigating your problem. I wasn’t aware that you had erection problems even when on sildenafil but that’s a clear indication that indeed something is wrong.

First of all, don’t get depressed. Your T is low for your age, but that’s not a death sentence. It’s just that one part of your body doesn’t function in an optimal way; that’s the case for a lot of people. Only difference is that you are actually aware of it and that now you can take steps in the right direction to correct it.

Your total T is not bottom low. It’s not ideal, but it’s certainly not terrible. Your free T however is very low. If I plug your numbers into a free testosterone calculator, I see that your SHBG is in the 55-60 nmol/l range, whereas ideally it should be a little lower.

One explanation might be that your liver adapted to clearing alcohol (you mention your very high tolerance to it) at the cost of producing IGF1 or eliminating SHBG. I advise you to quit the alcohol for a while (as you plan to do) and to add some liver support, like vitamin C and zinc. Do this for a month (together with your vit D, multi and light box) and retest.

As for the doctor, I mentioned Mariano because he’s the only one who actually seems to care about the root cause of problems. However, he charges 500$/consultation, is hard to reach and lives at the other side of the world so he’s not a realistic option.
The other “top specialists” will just prescribe you a massive list of hormones to correct every shortage they find (I’m in treatment with one). This will do you no good since at your age, your body should function fine on its own and it will drain your wallet.

Therefore, the only thing a good HRT doctor needs to do for you is:
1) Prescribe all the blood tests you want.
2) Prescribe all the compounds you want.
If you’ve found one who ticks these two boxes, stick to him and turn to specialized online fora for advice on compounds and dosing.

But try to improve your liver function first and then retest your numbers before you go looking for a HRT doctor (it seems like you’ve already got a doctor who’s willing to prescribe more than standard blood tests). Just ask to include LH, FSH and DHEAs in your next test, together with complete liver function. That should already tell you far more.

Please keep us updated and don’t hesitate to ask more questions. Good luck!
02-23-2016 03:02 PM
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PhDre Offline
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Post: #608
RE: TESTOSTERONE injections
(02-03-2016 12:11 PM)JayR Wrote:  
(02-03-2016 11:50 AM)PhDre Wrote:  ^ JayR, did they check your liver and thyroid function?

Your total T, estradiol and DHEA are great, especially for your age.

Dr. Saya mentioned that based on other lab numbers (1.27 mg/dl creatinine, etc.), my liver and kidney functions were fine.

He never said anything about thyroid.

He also mentioned that the DHEA I bought (Fountain of Life Micronized -- somebody on here recommended it) is definitely the real thing based on my high number.

Is it oral DHEA?
Oral DHEA can be quite hard on the liver's phase 2 detox pathway. This hampering of liver function can lead to decreased IGF1 and increased SHBG.
The typical AST and ALT liver test don't show this easily; bilirubin seems to be far more sensitive to this (at least it was for me).
02-23-2016 03:08 PM
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CaptainChardonnay Away
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Post: #609
RE: TESTOSTERONE injections
Look into taking N-acetyl Cysteine (NAC) for your liver
02-23-2016 03:15 PM
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Mr. Pink Offline
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Post: #610
RE: TESTOSTERONE injections
Incredibly helpful reply man I appreciate it, you'll be my very first +1.

I don't actually have a doctor I just kinda looked online to see which tests I should be getting and then went to random clinics and requested those tests specifically. Paid cash and that was that, no doctor was involved. It's been expensive as fuck though so I'll take the precautions you mentioned and after one or two months of following through I'll go back with a physical list of every single test I need to get done. The clinic I have access to right now doesn't have packages and requires me to specify and pay for every individual test, any idea where I can find a comprehensive list of every single biomarker that should be tested so that I don't miss anything next time I go?

My SHBG wasn't tested this most recent time but 11 months ago when I measured 537.5 tt / 13.6 ft my SHBG was 22.4.

You've obviously done a lot of reading man how long have you been working on getting your situation sorted? Have you had any improvements yet?
02-24-2016 12:39 AM
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JayR Offline
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Post: #611
RE: TESTOSTERONE injections
Quote:Is it oral DHEA?
Oral DHEA can be quite hard on the liver's phase 2 detox pathway. This hampering of liver function can lead to decreased IGF1 and increased SHBG.
The typical AST and ALT liver test don't show this easily; bilirubin seems to be far more sensitive to this (at least it was for me).

Yes, it's a micronized tablet version somebody on this thread recommended. Fountain of Life by McPherson labs. I hope it is high quality, because it is not cheap.

I asked Dr. Saya about the DHEA sub-lingual troches that the other Defy Doc talked about on the Google Hangout session, but Saya did not recommend them.
02-24-2016 01:19 PM
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PhDre Offline
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Post: #612
RE: TESTOSTERONE injections
^Oral DHEA is converted to DHEAs, testosterone, estradiol and possibly other metabolites inside the liver. This requires a serious effort from the phase 1 and 2 detoxification pathways. If your liver is not in top health, it is possible that this DHEA processing compromises the normal elimination of SHBG.
With your near perfect T, E2 and DHEAs numbers, your SHBG should be ok as well.

I don't like sublingual either. It is absorbed too quickly and is not sulfonated (=converted to DHEAs) which means that it has a very short half-life. You take it, it gives you a quick spike and then it's gone. This is completely opposed to the natural cycle where DHEAs, which has a multiple hour half-life, is steadily excreted by your adrenals and converted by local tissues into DHEA.
I'm currently experimenting with transdermal DHEA to counter both of these problems.

That being said, your doctor is far more knowledgeable and experienced than I am, but I would bring up the subject to him before commiting to TRT.
02-25-2016 12:15 PM
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PhDre Offline
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Post: #613
RE: TESTOSTERONE injections
(02-24-2016 12:39 AM)Mr. Pink Wrote:  Incredibly helpful reply man I appreciate it, you'll be my very first +1.

Thanks man.

(02-24-2016 12:39 AM)Mr. Pink Wrote:  I don't actually have a doctor I just kinda looked online to see which tests I should be getting and then went to random clinics and requested those tests specifically. Paid cash and that was that, no doctor was involved. It's been expensive as fuck though so I'll take the precautions you mentioned and after one or two months of following through I'll go back with a physical list of every single test I need to get done. The clinic I have access to right now doesn't have packages and requires me to specify and pay for every individual test, any idea where I can find a comprehensive list of every single biomarker that should be tested so that I don't miss anything next time I go?

Where are you? In the US or in Asia? There are probably some forum members who can help you to find a suitable clinic. I'm in Europe so I cannot give you any advice on this topic.

As for the biomarkers that should be tested, forum member CleanSlate gives some good advice: http://www.trtguide.com/labs/
And the T-Nation TRT subforum gives some good info as well: https://forums.t-nation.com/t/lab-work-b...oms/150881

This is a long list and will be very expensive, if you want to keep it affordable while working on your problem I would suggest these:
- Endocrine function: FSH, total testosterone, SHBG, estradiol, DHEAs (very basic subset, to be done every time)
- complete blood count, lipid panel, metabolic panel (to be done once to rule out serious disease)

(02-24-2016 12:39 AM)Mr. Pink Wrote:  My SHBG wasn't tested this most recent time but 11 months ago when I measured 537.5 tt / 13.6 ft my SHBG was 22.4.

Yes that seems correct, it might have spiked so much because your testosterone and estradiol have declined even further. You went from low to high so SHBG doesn't seem to be the cause of your problem. It's very important to get tested for LH/FSH (or only FSH if cost is an issue).

Can you provide the units for your thyroid measurements? I cannot immediately make sense of it.

(02-24-2016 12:39 AM)Mr. Pink Wrote:  You've obviously done a lot of reading man how long have you been working on getting your situation sorted? Have you had any improvements yet?

I've been working on my issues for six years (from my early twenties). First with diet changes, then lifestyle changes and since 1 year with hormones. I'm getting to the point where I start to understand the root cause. If I get my supplementation just right, I have massive improvements but I still haven't found the right dosing/timing so it's hit and miss for the moment.

One advantage of encountering endocrine problems at such a young age is that you really get in tune with your health and body. Nearly all of my biomarkers are great, I almost never get sick, and while most guys my age get fatter, older and greyer/balder by the day, I nearly look the same as in my early twenties.
02-25-2016 12:51 PM
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Mr. Pink Offline
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Post: #614
RE: TESTOSTERONE injections
I'm in Asia, specifically the Philippines. Flights to China, Japan, Thailand etc are quite cheap so I'd definitely be up for flying elsewhere to get my labs done and make a trip out of it if anyone knows of a good clinic. Those links you posted are pretty much exactly what I was looking for but at the same time are overwhelming as hell. Seems like "enthusiasts" are a source of more reliable information than a lot of the actual doctors themselves.

As for the measurements, my bad. The most recent results are TSH 1.7 uIU/mL T4 124.5 nmol/L T3 1.6 nmol/L Estradiol 17.34 pg/ml.

(02-25-2016 12:51 PM)PhDre Wrote:  I've been working on my issues for six years (from my early twenties). First with diet changes, then lifestyle changes and since 1 year with hormones. I'm getting to the point where I start to understand the root cause. If I get my supplementation just right, I have massive improvements but I still haven't found the right dosing/timing so it's hit and miss for the moment.

One advantage of encountering endocrine problems at such a young age is that you really get in tune with your health and body. Nearly all of my biomarkers are great, I almost never get sick, and while most guys my age get fatter, older and greyer/balder by the day, I nearly look the same as in my early twenties.

Damn, you've been at it a long time. Have you seen anyone or have you just been doing your own research and experimenting with dosing/timing yourself? And your libido is dependent on you getting it right? I wish you the best of luck man seems like you're on the brink of finding your own personalized "cure".
02-26-2016 01:00 AM
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storm Offline
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Post: #615
RE: TESTOSTERONE injections
New dosage: 140mg test cyp (80mg every four days).

What do you guys measure?

I measure, among other things, hours spent sleeping and overall daily mood. I also have one of these (bluetooth) devices for blood pressure:
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(This post was last modified: 02-29-2016 07:03 PM by storm.)
02-29-2016 07:02 PM
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the Thing Offline
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Post: #616
RE: TESTOSTERONE injections
If one wants to stick oneself with 500mg of test E every week, is it better to do 250mg e3d/e4d or 500mg e7d?

Also how many days after beginning a cycle should one get blood work, to check out estrogen levels?

One's T levels hover around 450ish (pre cycle)

The internet seems to be all over the place on the once or twice a week thing. One has yet to find a conclusive answer.

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(This post was last modified: 03-04-2016 03:55 PM by the Thing.)
03-04-2016 03:53 PM
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Post: #617
RE: TESTOSTERONE injections
250mg every monday and thursday. Use 500UI HCG from the start (seperately inject 250UI after each testosterone injection) and continue the use of HCG until the first week of PCT (your nuts will shrink far less and you'll recover faster).

Bloodwork before starting your cycle and again 6 weeks after you're done with PCT.

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(This post was last modified: 03-04-2016 05:39 PM by Stimulus.)
03-04-2016 05:38 PM
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the Thing Offline
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Post: #618
RE: TESTOSTERONE injections
Can one substitute something if one has trouble finding HCG?

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03-04-2016 09:31 PM
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CaptainChardonnay Away
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Post: #619
RE: TESTOSTERONE injections
Quote:If one wants to stick oneself with 500mg of test E every week, is it better to do 250mg e3d/e4d or 500mg e7d?

With Test E you do 250mg every 3.5 days so for ex. monday morning and wednesday night
Test C would be 500mg every 7 days

Keep in mind however that these are steroid doses. A TRT dose is smaller but you stay on it.

Quote:Also how many days after beginning a cycle should one get blood work, to check out estrogen levels?

Pre: 2 weeks before you start
Mid: 7 weeks into a 12 to 14 week cycle or 5 weeks in a 8 week cycle
Post: 6 weeks after PCT.

Pre is to see where you are at baseline so you can compare. Mid to see if your product is properly dosed and working and Post to see if you have properly recovered.

Quote:The internet seems to be all over the place on the once or twice a week thing. One has yet to find a conclusive answer.

Its very clear depending on which ester your going to be using


Quote:250mg every monday and thursday. Use 500UI HCG from the start (seperately inject 250UI after each testosterone injection) and continue the use of HCG until the first week of PCT (your nuts will shrink far less and you'll recover faster).

week 1 to 12: Test E every 3.5 days (250mg each injection)
week 1 to 12: hCG every 3.5 days (250iu each injection)

You would not do hCG up to PCT but just until you stop the test injections so if you were doing a 12 week test E cycle then you would do the test E and hCG for 12 weeks then wait for the test E to clear out of your body before you begin PCT. Test E will take 14 days to clear so week 13 and 14 you will not take anything. Week 15 will be when PCT starts

Test C will take 18 days and Test P 3 days. You can see the longer esters stay in your body longer so they will require less injections to clear from your body and take longer to leave your body while a shorter ester requires more frequent injections because they clear out faster, for example Test P.

You don't take hCG up until PCT because hCG is suppressive. hCG mimics LH, so that being said if you have exogenous LH then the pituitary gland will not product its own LH.

Quote:Can one substitute something if one has trouble finding HCG?

No. Before you begin you should have everything on hand. All your needles, test, hCG, PCT. Also will need to budget for enough food which will be your biggest expense.

Just a note, for PCT make sure you are taking both Clomid and Nolvadex. Both are important as they work together to help you recover.

Something good to take also both on and off cycle is NAC which will protect your liver (yes even for injectable cycles).
03-04-2016 10:30 PM
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Stun Offline
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Post: #620
RE: TESTOSTERONE injections
Just came in at 525 total testosterone. I am little bit over 40.

A little surprised but not shocked to learn that is somewhat below average for my age, because I have very little stress and lift heavy on the regular.

The clinic didn't provide the other hormone numbers, so I'm waiting for them to respond with the rest of my details.

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03-09-2016 08:37 PM
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Post: #621
RE: TESTOSTERONE injections
I have a question: I just did bloodwork and it says 3.61 total testosterone. Does that mean its 361 total testosterone? My free test was 89.3 and 2.5%. Are those #s good? I haven't been to the doc to review yet. Thanks

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03-10-2016 09:08 PM
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ThrustMaster Offline
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Post: #622
RE: TESTOSTERONE injections
Most bloodwork results for TT is expressed in pg/nL you would need to translate whatever units you have into the units the other folks here are or just look at the ranges provided on your report as normal.
(This post was last modified: 03-10-2016 09:19 PM by ThrustMaster.)
03-10-2016 09:18 PM
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Post: #623
RE: TESTOSTERONE injections
Got my latest test results back.

Total T up to 874.4
Serum T at 805
Free T4 at 1.12

It's going well.

Лучше поздно, чем никогда

Those that see...will prepare.
03-11-2016 07:53 PM
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DrCotard Away
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Post: #624
RE: TESTOSTERONE injections
I made the decision to undergo testosterone replacement therapy, because I feel my T levels very low and I'm feeling the consecuences of low T (low sex drive, lack of motivation, brain fog, weakness)

I have a couple of questions regarding this therapy:
-Is it a good idea to inject 100 mg of testosterone enanthate per week?
-What aromatase blockers could you recommend me?
-I read that some of you report changes in your bodily scents. How long these smells begin to appear?
-And finally: How long (days, weeks or months) you began to see the benefits of this treatment?

By the way, I'm in my late 20s/early 30s.

Thanks in advance.
(This post was last modified: 03-12-2016 09:12 PM by DrCotard.)
03-12-2016 09:09 PM
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Thug Muffin Offline
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Post: #625
RE: TESTOSTERONE injections
100mg isn't a bad starting point. I think it's low and would rather do it in 2 shots a week.

AI may not be needed in your case. I can get away with injecting 150mg a week with no AI. Just need to look at your bloods. If E2 is high then definitely use one.

At a normal dose my scent didn't change. During a blast of 400mg a week I could definitely smell it when I began to sweat during my workouts. To me it was sour but my g/f didn't notice anything.

I noticed a change in my mood within two weeks.

Composition changes in muscle and bodyfat took at least a month.


(03-12-2016 09:09 PM)DrCotard Wrote:  I have a couple of questions regarding this therapy:
-Is it a good idea to inject 100 mg of testosterone enanthate per week?
-What aromatase blockers could you recommend me?
-I read that some of you report changes in your bodily scents. How long these smells begin to appear?
-And finally: How long (days, weeks or months) you began to see the benefits of this treatment?

By the way, I'm in my late 20s/early 30s.

Thanks in advance.
03-13-2016 11:47 AM
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