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Reframing your mind to battle depression and CBT
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kbell Offline
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Post: #101
RE: Reframing your mind to battle depression and CBT
I just finished No More Mister Nice Guy. Before when I read it on pdf I could not finish it since it caused so much mental suffering. I was able to read it with a more detached point of view and it had some good points. Its suggest to meet up with similar minded guys, however I think the No more mister nice guys tend to be beta since they emphasize sharing emotions in a nonjudmental way with women. I really do need to the meeting with fellow members of the forum. I don't have much game so I would assume that would be a turn off for meeting people though.

One thing I have noticed is that when I talk to several people I get nervous since its seems like its too much information is being said. I tend to just chime in at moments, but don't seem to to have the energy to be the life of a party and dominate the conversation to a degree. Its much easier talking to a person one on one. I will have to put myself in more multi-people conversations to make me relax more in the situation.
10-10-2014 02:19 PM
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Post: #102
RE: Reframing your mind to battle depression and CBT
(10-10-2014 02:19 PM)kbell Wrote:  I don't have much game so I would assume that would be a turn off for meeting people though.

I think there are many other guys on the forum who feel the exact same way but are not honest enough to say it, and just run shy of others on the same assumption.

And guys with game don't just always want to meet other players. Quite a few of them would just enjoy talking to a like-minded intelligent guy while being able to showcase their superior game.

(10-10-2014 02:19 PM)kbell Wrote:  One thing I have noticed is that when I talk to several people I get nervous since its seems like its too much information is being said. I tend to just chime in at moments, but don't seem to to have the energy to be the life of a party and dominate the conversation to a degree. Its much easier talking to a person one on one. I will have to put myself in more multi-people conversations to make me relax more in the situation.

Use your CBT. Who said you have to be "the life of the party" or dominate the conversation? And if you miss some of the precious "information" that is being said, is that really so terrible? Most of that information is just chatter of one kind or another. Nothing wrong with that, but neither are you likely to be missing a whole lot. Relax about the whole thing...

By definition, not everyone who is part of the conversation can be dominating it, otherwise you'd just have a lot of people talking at each other at the same time. Each guy has his own personality. The truth is that the quiet guys who do more of the listening are just as important to the social flow of the conversation as the dominant guys who do the talking. If you think about it, it has to be that way -- the talkers need the listeners to be around to have someone to talk to. Low-key quiet guys who are cool and have a sense of humor are appreciated more than you know. And on the rare occasions when the low-key thoughtful guy pipes up and talks, others tend to listen. So it can all balance out over time if every type is comfortable in his own skin.

same old shit, sixes and sevens Shaft...
10-11-2014 11:45 AM
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Post: #103
RE: Reframing your mind to battle depression and CBT
I've always been a good listener, its just I always felt I should say more. But I guess I tend to overlook that they are as important as talkers since you can't both talk at the same time. People do seem to listen when I say something, although not always super insightful. But to always have something interesting to say might be perfectionist thinking.
10-12-2014 02:50 PM
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Post: #104
RE: Reframing your mind to battle depression and CBT
(10-12-2014 02:50 PM)kbell Wrote:  But to always have something interesting to say might be perfectionist thinking.

Yes, it really is, and that is exactly the kind of insight that CBT can teach you.

same old shit, sixes and sevens Shaft...
10-12-2014 03:11 PM
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Dusty Offline
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Post: #105
RE: Reframing your mind to battle depression and CBT
(10-12-2014 02:50 PM)kbell Wrote:  I've always been a good listener, its just I always felt I should say more. But I guess I tend to overlook that they are as important as talkers since you can't both talk at the same time. People do seem to listen when I say something, although not always super insightful. But to always have something interesting to say might be perfectionist thinking.

The best conversation skill is to get the other person to talk and then get out of the way. I've had girls tell me what an awesome conversationalist I am, but truth be told she did more of the talking. I just brought up topics until I found one she was passionate in, then got out of the way and acted interested.

Quote:The great gift of conversation lies less in displaying it ourselves than in drawing it out of others. He who leaves your company pleased with himself and his own cleverness is perfectly well pleased with you.

- Jean de la Bruyere

Take care of those titties for me.
10-12-2014 03:25 PM
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kbell Offline
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Post: #106
RE: Reframing your mind to battle depression and CBT
So most people really are more interested in themselves in a conversation. When I talk and its about myself, I don't think the other person is as engaged. However if its them talking about themselves, and I nudge them to reveal more, I think they probably would enjoy it more than.
10-12-2014 03:32 PM
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Post: #107
RE: Reframing your mind to battle depression and CBT
^^^ This really is true. I used to think it was hard to talk to girls but in fact they love talking about themselves so it's actually easy. You just ask a small follow-up and or make a comment on the last thing they said and they'll keep talking and talking.

Bella, horrida bella
et Thybrim multo spumantem sanguine cerno
10-15-2014 05:25 PM
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kbell Offline
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Post: #108
RE: Reframing your mind to battle depression and CBT
I was meditating today and I realized that I hold unto grudges from childhood. I also have blamed my parents for a lot of things where they tried their best to be good parents. They did their best, and I'm thankful for that, but don't quite truly believe it yet which is odd. Forgiving for the past will help others and myself, but I'm not totally sure how to do it. For instance If I decided to punch or hurt bullies from when I was younger today, I would hurt myself for keeping up a victim hood. The person now wouldn't remembered what they did, and I would get not rid of the pain that way. Their is also the possibility of being hurt as well, which would hurt psychically and mentally. However If I forgave them, I think I would be totally free of anguish.
(This post was last modified: 10-17-2014 10:41 AM by kbell.)
10-17-2014 10:38 AM
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Post: #109
RE: Reframing your mind to battle depression and CBT
(10-17-2014 10:38 AM)kbell Wrote:  I was meditating today and I realized that I hold unto grudges from childhood. I also have blamed my parents for a lot of things where they tried their best to be good parents. They did their best, and I'm thankful for that, but don't quite truly believe it yet which is odd. Forgiving for the past will help others and myself, but I'm not totally sure how to do it. For instance If I decided to punch or hurt bullies from when I was younger today, I would hurt myself for keeping up a victim hood. The person now wouldn't remembered what they did, and I would get not rid of the pain that way. Their is also the possibility of being hurt as well, which would hurt psychically and mentally. However If I forgave them, I think I would be totally free of anguish.

Giovanny has talked about how forgiving his parents has been liberating and can probably offer good advice.

In addition to what Gio has to say, I would saturate your brain with rational thinking about this topic. Write things down every day. Carry it around in your pocket and read it during the day.

Things like:

"It's unfortunate that I was treated unfairly in my past. But I can't change the past. I can have some influence on the present and future however. I'm determined to not ruminate in the past I can't change and focus on the future which I can influence. It won't be easy but I want to forgive the people from the past who treated me poorly, and do my best to put that behind me. Then focus my energies on developing skills and experiences that will make my current and future life better."

Take care of those titties for me.
10-17-2014 11:08 AM
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Giovonny Offline
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Post: #110
RE: Reframing your mind to battle depression and CBT
(10-17-2014 10:38 AM)kbell Wrote:  Forgiving for the past will help others and myself, but I'm not totally sure how to do it.

Keep thinking about it and trying to do it.

Just the fact that you are trying to do it is the most important thing. Keep working at it. Be patient, it can takes years.. I'm am still working at it.

If you get stuck, just Google -- "how to forgive your parents"

Tons of useful information comes up!

There are lots of books on "forgiveness", depression, and anger. Study them!

Ask for help if you need it.
(This post was last modified: 10-17-2014 02:56 PM by Giovonny.)
10-17-2014 02:50 PM
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Post: #111
RE: Reframing your mind to battle depression and CBT
How have you tried to forgive? One way I think might help for me at least is to emphasize or put myself in their shoes. My parents weren't too bad, but I was bullied quite a bit growing up by classmates and peers. I was quite different but did make friends. But bullying probably leaves lingering sores if you allow it.

I think I hold a negative view of my father because he is a way I could turn out, very beta and henpecked. We have a lot in common and he is a good man. In the past anytime I noticed a similar trait of mine in someone else it repulsed me. A sort of projected hate in a way. Hopefully introspection will lead me to the root of my sadness and find away of cognitively correcting it. You can't always control things, but you can let things not bother you.
10-17-2014 08:25 PM
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The Lizard of Oz Offline
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Post: #112
RE: Reframing your mind to battle depression and CBT
kbell, here is something you might find useful. Don't think of "forgiving" as some active new thing that you have to do, or a new state you have to enter; instead, think about letting go of the grudges from the past that are still in your mind. Just reflect about these grudges, realize that they are useless to you, and let them go.

It's not easy to have something new like forgiveness come into your life on demand; it's something that can just happen one day, like a state of grace, but you can't exactly will it. But what you can always do is to look at things that are already in your mind -- like old grudges from the past -- and just let them go. It's like a cleanup of your brain where you are deleting bad old files that are clogging up memory and slowing the whole operation down. Let them depart and leave behind a blankness into which other things can enter over time.

same old shit, sixes and sevens Shaft...
10-19-2014 11:17 AM
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Post: #113
RE: Reframing your mind to battle depression and CBT
I was looking at mike's tweets, I came across these two tweets.

"No regrets." What's the point of sitting around hating yourself over shit you did? I admit fuck-ups and move forward.

No apologies." - Apologies are bullshit. Words. Your past is what it is. Own it without apology. Then move forward.

This forward movement, accepting your past is unchangeable, but you can proceed in a way you want to is interesting. Reminds me of CBT, how you don't try the exact source of the problem (well you can with some of the questioning), but deal with the now and future.
10-19-2014 10:05 PM
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Post: #114
RE: Reframing your mind to battle depression and CBT
I've been watching digestion sessions and one was about irritable bowel diseases. The one I have may be due to an intolerance to yelling which sends my body into a fight or flight response. My parents would often yell out their frustrations with each other (they are still together) however I never developed a great coping mechanism with yelling I can't control, and I can't seem to raise my voice that loud consistently. Also an infection which I had when I was 18 was the final push to led to the full blown disease. However its been much better since than but its not completely gone. A positive about this series is that by simply taking folate acid I negate my I believe 6 times normal chance of getting colon cancer.

They also mention tapping and some sort of eye movement to destract from using the amygdla part of the brain which is based on fear. This brings the stressor into context and less flight or flight response.
12-21-2014 08:54 PM
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Post: #115
RE: Reframing your mind to battle depression and CBT
I've found depression with me is extremely simple:
- If I am having sex with an attractive girl or girls, reasonably frequently, and I envisage this will continue (repeats etc), I cannot be depressed.
- If I'm putting in any effort to get girls, and I am not having sex regardless, I will get depressed. If I lose a bang I had been expecting at the last minute, I will be straight-up gutted. I have to avoid interacting with people after this because my face looks like an extreme-grade clinical depression face for the next several hours.

For me, based on experience, there are no other material factors.
12-22-2014 02:51 AM
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Post: #116
RE: Reframing your mind to battle depression and CBT
I used to suffer from depression and every now and then ill still have a slow day but not like what it was. Finding what your passionate about and striving to achieve it is how I stopped being depressed. If your working a job you hate and hate your life you will obv be depressed and should do something about it. Even in your most depressing moments all it takes is the will to think positively and you can change your mood to whatever you want.
12-22-2014 04:54 AM
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Post: #117
RE: Reframing your mind to battle depression and CBT
All depression issues indicate hormone imbalance.
12-22-2014 06:19 AM
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Post: #118
RE: Reframing your mind to battle depression and CBT
(12-22-2014 06:19 AM)roid Wrote:  All depression issues indicate hormone imbalance.

No they definitely do not.

And 'hormone imbalance' is so vague its almost like saying "there is something wrong because something is wrong".

As per post 115.
12-22-2014 08:43 AM
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Post: #119
RE: Reframing your mind to battle depression and CBT
Reframing is some solid advice for sure, but I find it to be half-true. For me, it is also a combination of both the environment and the people around you.
12-22-2014 10:37 AM
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Post: #120
RE: Reframing your mind to battle depression and CBT
(12-22-2014 08:43 AM)Phoenix Wrote:  
(12-22-2014 06:19 AM)roid Wrote:  All depression issues indicate hormone imbalance.

No they definitely do not.

And 'hormone imbalance' is so vague its almost like saying "there is something wrong because something is wrong".

As per post 115.

How can you know if you have never done a blood check? Hormone imbalance is a broad topic and I am not gonna type the whole thing here, but do your own research.
12-22-2014 09:19 PM
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kbell Offline
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Post: #121
RE: Reframing your mind to battle depression and CBT
Hormonal imbalance theory is based on not having enough serotonin neurotransmitter circulating in the brain if I remember correctly. From what I understand its a possible reason why SSRI's work, but they could also work from anti-inflammation effects as well. Its now well understood from my reading.

Their is also a gut brain axis where, the neurotransmitters are made in the gut, and an entire nervous system exist in the gut, as much neurons exist as in the spine. The gut can work almost independently from the mind for some reason. What connects the two is a vagus nerve which I assume can be corrupted. I do want to learn a lot more about this relationship. When you have diarrhea or constipation your brain tends to get weird as well. I tend to get more depressed or foggy, and when the gut clears up back to normal.
12-22-2014 09:52 PM
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The Lizard of Oz Offline
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Post: #122
RE: Reframing your mind to battle depression and CBT
CBT (which is the subject of this thread) has proven as or more effective in reducing anxiety and depression as any medications (and without the side effects, obviously) according to multiple well-designed studies.

There is no need to get distracted by talk of "hormonal imbalances" when there exists such a superbly effective therapeutic modality. Let's keep this thread focused on kbell's (and others') progress with CBT, as intended.

same old shit, sixes and sevens Shaft...
12-22-2014 10:06 PM
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kbell Offline
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Post: #123
RE: Reframing your mind to battle depression and CBT
I came across an article on the web a few months back. To reduce anxiety it recommended using folinic acid. I didn't think much of it but gave it a shot since its really cheap and is basically folate. Almost immediately my anxiety was reduced drastically, where things that would normally bother me, like a patient not liking a RX of a glasses I cut. Granted rationally I didn't DO the RX, that's the doctors job, but just cut the lens, but if the RX was off it would bother me a lot. It didn't bother me much at all while on folinic acid. After several week I went to my shrink again and he noticed quite a difference in how I talked about things. I normally am pretty pessimistic and would complain about something. I was much more easy going, and was under worse pressure before do to work related issues.

I went there again a few days ago and he still noticed the change so I don't think its a fluke. I read up a bit on what folate does and it is aborbed in the illium. That is the part of the small intestine on me that has the ulcer. So its most likely not absorbed well. Folinic acid is supposedly able to be absorbed much easier than folate. I'm not sure on that account since I haven't tried just regular folate yet. That's what I'm using.

http://www.amazon.com/Source-Naturals-Me...linic+acid
(This post was last modified: 05-22-2015 07:37 PM by kbell.)
05-22-2015 07:35 PM
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Post: #124
RE: Reframing your mind to battle depression and CBT
Was recently diagnosed with IBS. Basically shit 7-12 times only when at work. I'm pretty sure its nerves. I don't like my job or where I live, but don't have much motivation to look for others, or put in the effort to get good at my art (potential job). My energy has been low so that tends to effect motivation. I also have several injuries which make me not as mobile as before, so its like a perfect storm for low emotions.

I started mediating daily, counting to 300 to 500 which is based on my breathing. After an inhale and exhale its a count of one, which can be 2-3 seconds. Focusing on two things while mediating seems to slow the thoughts down a lot. I hope this leads to a more calm outlook but not sure how long that will take.

I looked for a local CBT therapists but found none, they all seem to specialize in multiple things. What should I look for in a cbt therapists? Besides being a guy and not look like he has too much estrogen. If they take my insurance is another thing too.

Any other things to reduce stress and perfectionism, that I can do anytime? A problem with cbt was for me it only seemed to help when I was writing, but I can't just write my problems down anytime. I often have problems come up where I have to deal with an angry patient or coworker and I have to deal with them. The only

On a positive note I have found a way to lose weight and am drinking a lot more water.

I can relate to this movie, without having a murderous gut monster.



(This post was last modified: 01-10-2016 04:15 PM by kbell.)
01-10-2016 04:12 PM
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Post: #125
RE: Reframing your mind to battle depression and CBT
(01-10-2016 04:12 PM)kbell Wrote:  Was recently diagnosed with IBS. Basically shit 7-12 times only when at work. I'm pretty sure its nerves. I don't like my job or where I live, but don't have much motivation to look for others, or put in the effort to get good at my art (potential job). My energy has been low so that tends to effect motivation. I also have several injuries which make me not as mobile as before, so its like a perfect storm for low emotions.

I started mediating daily, counting to 300 to 500 which is based on my breathing. After an inhale and exhale its a count of one, which can be 2-3 seconds. Focusing on two things while mediating seems to slow the thoughts down a lot. I hope this leads to a more calm outlook but not sure how long that will take.

I looked for a local CBT therapists but found none, they all seem to specialize in multiple things. What should I look for in a cbt therapists? Besides being a guy and not look like he has too much estrogen. If they take my insurance is another thing too.

Any other things to reduce stress and perfectionism, that I can do anytime? A problem with cbt was for me it only seemed to help when I was writing, but I can't just write my problems down anytime. I often have problems come up where I have to deal with an angry patient or coworker and I have to deal with them. The only

On a positive note I have found a way to lose weight and am drinking a lot more water.

KBell,

It's a good sign you get relief when writing down your CBT disputes. It's working for you. You lose the effect though because your irrational thoughts come back and crowd out your new rational thoughts. That's because your irrational thoughts are habitual - you've been practicing and rehearsing them over-and-over your whole life. Your new rational ways of thinking are not habit yet, and quickly lose out to your old ways of thinking.

You need to find ways to keep your rational thoughts at the front of your mind. I recommend writing them down on index cards, which you can keep in your pocket. You can read them first thing in the morning, and take them out throughout the day to review and reflect on (maybe when you are sitting on the can!).

You should be writing down your disputes daily too, even on good days. And spend time thinking and reflecting why they make sense. Give yourself behavioral experiments too (e.g., what if the next time I encounter an angry patient, I don't take it too personally and let her comments roll off my back and I force myself to be cheerful as I leave the room - or at least force myself to be Trump-like and act like I don't give a fuck). Your new (at first forced) behaviors improve your moods and changes your thinking.

I think some REBT/CBT people do therapy over Skype. I believe Michael Edelstein does that - he seems to be the biggest champion of REBT since Ellis died.

Take care of those titties for me.
01-10-2016 09:15 PM
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