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Ukraine conflict lounge
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Big Nilla Offline
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Post: #201
RE: Ukraine conflict lounge
Jim,
About the military alliance with countries like Iran, North Korea, Syria, etc... I'm not so sure about that if what you're saying is basically security guarantees by Russia via something like a Warsaw Pact. Russia gets all the risk with little benefit.

What was effective for the Soviet Union (and now kinda what the USA/West are doing) is basically sparking situations throughout the 3rd world. Since Russia has far fewer client-states than the Soviet Union, it's in a much weaker position. But it should seriously consider going back to that and causing problems for US client states in the 3rd world. Personally, I like the idea of using Russian businesses doing things within the USA (such as manufacturing guns and ammo within the USA). The USA is a fractured country. So exploit it and work it. Whatever hurts the US govt's attempts to centralize authority, subvert it under the guise of business. Also fund NGO such as border patrol stuff, the NRA, etc. Support and popularize American bloggers who speak out against the US govt. Basically, do a lot of the things the US has done to Russia and other countries in the world. I'd put snipers at the US border and have them shoot at Mexicans AND US border patrol. But hey, I'm aggressive like that. Just thinking out loud. Not saying these aggressive tactics are the way to go since I'm clueless on all the behind the scenes things that are happening. Just an option to consider.

Roosh, good question.
Who knows, but Russia is screwed without Putin in my opinion. I don't think other Russian leaders such as Medvedev realize that this is basically a life or death struggle for Russia and they can't really compromise. I think another leader would just appease the West and buy time. But that just positions the West in a stronger position and Russia in a weaker position. And the West would keep coming at them around the edges and inside the gates.

I think Jim said something about there are more hawkish politicians in Russia than Putin. They may be hardcore, but I doubt they're adept like Putin. I could only imagine what Putin would be able to do with a country like the USA.

My answer... if Russia didn't have Putin they would have no shot at surviving economically and would revert back to the Yeltsin playground years.
03-14-2014 04:59 PM
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JayJuanGee Offline
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Post: #202
RE: Ukraine conflict lounge
(03-14-2014 04:54 PM)jimukr104 Wrote:  
(03-14-2014 04:42 PM)JayJuanGee Wrote:  
(03-14-2014 04:29 PM)jimukr104 Wrote:  Question..how can an interim un elected gov't sign an EU trade agreement without a referendum after knowing that based on last polls only 42-45% approve of IT? The measures hurt the Russian regions the most..do you think Putin should consider it an act of WAR on ethnic Russians?
(Sanctions against Japan is what led to Pearl Harbor..sanctions are an act of war)

Maybe I do NOT understand some of the presumptions, but really are we of the opinion that the current government in Kiev is legit or "democratically elected"?

First of all this current govt oust the leader that was democratically elected. That's a coupe... Then if they take subsequent actions to get themselves voted in, that does NOT make them a valid government b/c the first act of the coupe was NOT valid. Anyhow the fact that the west and the EU recognize the new government in Kiev as being legit doesn't take away from its invalidity and likely the division within the country about whether it is valid.

Anyhow, it seems to be a mess that neither party is going to want to back down from.... at least, it seems to be getting worse and worse by the day in terms of neither side wanting to back down... and then the alliances that are being made and questions about whether those alliances are solidified... or maybe there will be some side switching.

I get the sense that a succession vote would NOT be valid, but that would NOT affect the pressures and alliances and various kinds of recognition that would be taking place and ongoing.
lol..we know it is illegal gov't..but the arrogance keeps continuing.
The May 25 elections is a sham anyway. It will be a selection from among 3-4 opposition leaders.
Not even sure if the communist party is fielding anyone. But the current coup e tat gov't has already arrested the governor of Kharkov who was going to run. Sounds like fascism to me...arrest all the competition.
Western hypocrisy in action...we aren't even suppose to give coup e tat gov't aid.

I did NOT intend to overstate the obvious; however, as many of us have already recognized, one of the first casualties of war is the truth.

I get a little irritated by the mainstream news in the USA spreading disinformation, and I am supposed to be on the USA team... but then it really irritates me b/c I recognize that there is a lot of behind the scenes shit-stirring going on.. and then conflicts can bring real and meaningful levels of attachment on one side or another when lives are being lost... and even when people are put in prison for trumped up political reasons ... Definitely, these kinds of escalations can ruin lives and ruin the lives of people who make alliances on one side or the other... and sometimes make alliances and begin to cheerlead based on the reliance on misinformation.
03-14-2014 05:02 PM
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Tex Pro Offline
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Post: #203
RE: Ukraine conflict lounge
US Issues Travel Alert For Russia, Warns Of "Potential Military Clashes (Either Accidental Or Intentional)":

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-03-14...dental-or-
03-14-2014 05:17 PM
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jimukr104 Offline
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Post: #204
RE: Ukraine conflict lounge
(03-14-2014 04:25 PM)The Texas Prophet Wrote:  The Tanks Are Coming While Russia, US "Remain At Odds" Over Ukraine:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-03-14...are-coming

I like this comment:

"Ah, those Rooskies are no match for our boys, girls and whatevers.

Just wait till they come up against our Special Force 55, the “Fighting Fairies”, 69th Battalion Battling Bull Dykes or the 10th Trannie Division.

Ivan is toast (with flavored lube spread on top)."
03-14-2014 05:18 PM
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jimukr104 Offline
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Post: #205
RE: Ukraine conflict lounge
(03-14-2014 04:59 PM)Big Nilla Wrote:  Jim,
About the military alliance with countries like Iran, North Korea, Syria, etc... I'm not so sure about that if what you're saying is basically security guarantees by Russia via something like a Warsaw Pact. Russia gets all the risk with little benefit.

What was effective for the Soviet Union (and now kinda what the USA/West are doing) is basically sparking situations throughout the 3rd world. Since Russia has far fewer client-states than the Soviet Union, it's in a much weaker position. But it should seriously consider going back to that and causing problems for US client states in the 3rd world. Personally, I like the idea of using Russian businesses doing things within the USA (such as manufacturing guns and ammo within the USA). The USA is a fractured country. So exploit it and work it. Whatever hurts the US govt's attempts to centralize authority, subvert it under the guise of business. Also fund NGO such as border patrol stuff, the NRA, etc. Support and popularize American bloggers who speak out against the US govt. Basically, do a lot of the things the US has done to Russia and other countries in the world. I'd put snipers at the US border and have them shoot at Mexicans AND US border patrol. But hey, I'm aggressive like that. Just thinking out loud. Not saying these aggressive tactics are the way to go since I'm clueless on all the behind the scenes things that are happening. Just an option to consider.

Roosh, good question.
Who knows, but Russia is screwed without Putin in my opinion. I don't think other Russian leaders such as Medvedev realize that this is basically a life or death struggle for Russia and they can't really compromise. I think another leader would just appease the West and buy time. But that just positions the West in a stronger position and Russia in a weaker position. And the West would keep coming at them around the edges and inside the gates.

I think Jim said something about there are more hawkish politicians in Russia than Putin. They may be hardcore, but I doubt they're adept like Putin. I could only imagine what Putin would be able to do with a country like the USA.

My answer... if Russia didn't have Putin they would have no shot at surviving economically and would revert back to the Yeltsin playground years.
Yeltsin gave up a lot of ground to NATO. But economics was a bigger problem then.But Gorbachev really caused this crisis by granting independence and letting them keep Crimea.
03-14-2014 07:02 PM
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Blunt Offline
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Post: #206
RE: Ukraine conflict lounge
Don't have a good link yet but apparently 2 have been shot dead in Kharkov, possibly by Right Sector. (from twitter)
03-14-2014 07:45 PM
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Tex Pro Offline
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Post: #207
RE: Ukraine conflict lounge
(03-14-2014 07:45 PM)Blunt Wrote:  Don't have a good link yet but apparently 2 have been shot dead in Kharkov, possibly by Right Sector. (from twitter)



03-14-2014 08:16 PM
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Icarus Offline
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Post: #208
RE: Ukraine conflict lounge
More footage from the low-intensity civil war in Donetsk, courtesy of VICE News:




"The great secret of happiness in love is to be glad that the other fellow married her." – H.L. Mencken
03-14-2014 09:05 PM
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Tex Pro Offline
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Post: #209
RE: Ukraine conflict lounge
The Russians Have Already Quietly Pulled Their Money From The West:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-03-14...money-west
03-14-2014 09:22 PM
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Post: #210
RE: Ukraine conflict lounge
Not that it would happen or even be successful, but it'd be an interesting experiment if Russia fashioned Crimea into an international banking/financial center similar to Hong Kong. It's part of Russia, but at arm's distance with it's own laws/regulations/etc... sort of like what Hong Kong is to China. Then all the Russian oligarchs could safely put their money there without risk from Russia or the West. Also scoop up a lot of 3rd world dictator money from Africa, the 'Stans, and the Middle East that likes a no-questions asked policy.
03-14-2014 10:26 PM
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Post: #211
RE: Ukraine conflict lounge
jimukr104 Wrote:Imho his "invasion" of Crimea with no violence totally is a mockery of US involvement in other places. When we get involved people die. Russians get involved no one dies and the people cheer them even.

Post Of The Day

It is indeed the single most glaring feature of this conflict, and the reason why USA looks incredibly hypocritical with its propaganda. I don't think that Russia is right in this either, but at least its hands are clean.

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03-15-2014 04:01 AM
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Blunt Offline
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Post: #212
RE: Ukraine conflict lounge
It seems that Reuters is one of the few mainstream Western media outlets that is reporting the shooting deaths in Kharkov. Not surprisingly, RFE/RL has an entire tumblr-style stream of news, even including cartoons, but no mention of the deaths in Kharkov.

I guess it is inconvenient for the West to be having pro-Russian supporters dying at the hands of Right Sector...

Reuters:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/1...GE20140315

RIA Novosti:
http://en.ria.ru/russia/20140315/1884536...raine.html
03-15-2014 11:37 AM
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Big Nilla Offline
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Post: #213
RE: Ukraine conflict lounge
Ukraine isn't letting Russians in or out of Transdniestria.
http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_03_15...tria-8531/
03-15-2014 02:55 PM
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Post: #214
RE: Ukraine conflict lounge
Roosh that's a good question, however I have a feeling that India, China, Latin America and Brazil are firmly behind Russia in this conflict. Despite there going to be elections in India soon, both the main parties have come out backing Russia. India has had ties with the Soviet Union/Russia ever since the Americans backed the Pakistanis, and the Americans still back the pakistanis.

Don't forget to check out my latest post on Return of Kings - 6 Things Indian Guys Need To Understand About Game

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03-15-2014 03:07 PM
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Tex Pro Offline
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Post: #215
RE: Ukraine conflict lounge
On eve of vote, Russians reported in Ukraine area outside of Crimea:

Quote:Ukrainian officials said about 60 Russian troops in six helicopters and assisted by three armored vehicles crossed into Ukraine's Kherson region and are in the town of Strilkove, on a strip of land just northeast of Crimea.

The State Border Guard Service of Ukraine said the Russian troops were on the ground Saturday and the Ukrainian guards had taken defensive positions.

The region is key to neighboring Crimea, because it gets electricity, freshwater and natural gas from there.

The Russians said they were in Kherson to prevent a possible terrorist attack on oil assets in the area, according to the border guard service.

No clashes have been reported, the border guards said.

Ukraine's foreign ministry termed the move a "military invasion" and called on Russia to withdraw its forces.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/15/world/euro...ne-crisis/

EDIT: More on the move by Russia:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/16/world/...-says.html
(This post was last modified: 03-15-2014 04:51 PM by Tex Pro.)
03-15-2014 04:27 PM
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Post: #216
RE: Ukraine conflict lounge
(03-15-2014 04:27 PM)The Texas Prophet Wrote:  On eve of vote, Russians reported in Ukraine area outside of Crimea:

Quote:Ukrainian officials said about 60 Russian troops in six helicopters and assisted by three armored vehicles crossed into Ukraine's Kherson region and are in the town of Strilkove, on a strip of land just northeast of Crimea.

The State Border Guard Service of Ukraine said the Russian troops were on the ground Saturday and the Ukrainian guards had taken defensive positions.

The region is key to neighboring Crimea, because it gets electricity, freshwater and natural gas from there.

The Russians said they were in Kherson to prevent a possible terrorist attack on oil assets in the area, according to the border guard service.

No clashes have been reported, the border guards said.

Ukraine's foreign ministry termed the move a "military invasion" and called on Russia to withdraw its forces.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/15/world/euro...ne-crisis/

EDIT: More on the move by Russia:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/16/world/...-says.html

If I were a betting man, based on what little facts that I have, I would bet that ultimately, Russia is going to take "protection" over all of Ukraine... Ultimately, I have the sense that they have the support of the region... and sufficiently favorable support within the country and enough world support (various allies as mentioned by Bojangles - and likely they will have other allies, who are fairly hostile to the hypocrisy of the US of A and the West).

That's just my gut feeling at the moment... even though i am sure it is possible that developments will NOT quite play out in any kind of smooth or linear scenario.
03-15-2014 05:08 PM
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Post: #217
RE: Ukraine conflict lounge
What will Russia do next?

-Full scale invasion of Ukraine
-Invasion of Eastern Ukraine
-Stay in Crimea

Putin seems to be a fan of probing. He goes past the line and measures the response by the international community and Ukraine itself. He did this in Crimea with the "self defense forces" and seems to be doing it again around Kherson. Unless Ukraine attacks his guys with their pitiful army or the West starts shooting, he will take that as a green light and proceed. Why wouldn't he? Ukraine is basically up for the grabing with no competent army and no military assistance from the West, and Putin has already shown signs that he's in it for the long haul (recently transferring securities from the US Fed while executing a naval blocking action in Lithuania). It's looking increasingly likely that Russian troops will enter Ukraine en masse. He also doesn't seem to want Ukraine to be split in multiple countries, so he will play for keeps.

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03-15-2014 05:11 PM
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Icarus Offline
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Post: #218
RE: Ukraine conflict lounge
(03-15-2014 05:11 PM)Roosh Wrote:  Putin seems to be a fan of probing. He goes past the line and measures the response by the international community and Ukraine itself.

Putin appears to be using classic salami tactics:




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03-15-2014 05:22 PM
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jimukr104 Offline
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Post: #219
RE: Ukraine conflict lounge
(03-15-2014 05:11 PM)Roosh Wrote:  What will Russia do next?

-Full scale invasion of Ukraine
-Invasion of Eastern Ukraine
-Stay in Crimea

Putin seems to be a fan of probing. He goes past the line and measures the response by the international community and Ukraine itself. He did this in Crimea with the "self defense forces" and seems to be doing it again around Kherson. Unless Ukraine attacks his guys with their pitiful army or the West starts shooting, he will take that as a green light and proceed. Why wouldn't he? Ukraine is basically up for the grabing with no competent army and no military assistance from the West, and Putin has already shown signs that he's in it for the long haul (recently transferring securities from the US Fed while executing a naval blocking action in Lithuania). It's looking increasingly likely that Russian troops will enter Ukraine en masse. He also doesn't seem to want Ukraine to be split in multiple countries, so he will play for keeps.

but what is his purpose?
He can't occupy Ukraine. He isn't Stalin nor is his army that large and motivated.
The people don't want him there so it won't be productive for him.
Could he want to get rid of the new gov't and put VK back?
Putin has lost his mind.. and NUKES will be coming that means. UA is useless broke country.
03-15-2014 05:37 PM
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Post: #220
RE: Ukraine conflict lounge
(03-15-2014 05:37 PM)jimukr104 Wrote:  Putin has lost his mind

Possible, but not probable. Putin's career shows that he's extremely patient and aware of how much power he has. He must have read the Russian equivalent of "The 48 Laws of Power" when he was in the KGB.

We don't have access to all the information Putin has at his disposal, so invoking Putin's insanity this soon is unwarranted, I believe.

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(This post was last modified: 03-15-2014 05:42 PM by Icarus.)
03-15-2014 05:42 PM
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Roosh Offline
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Post: #221
RE: Ukraine conflict lounge
Quote:He can't occupy Ukraine.

He can and he will. There will be no nukes from NATO, there will be no military involvement, just token sanctions. It's Putin's game to lose.

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03-15-2014 05:51 PM
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Post: #222
RE: Ukraine conflict lounge
Russia's Special Ops Invasion of Ukraine Has Begun:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/20...raine.html
03-15-2014 07:11 PM
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Post: #223
RE: Ukraine conflict lounge
There was a parliament vote to silence former German leader who is supporting Putin:

Quote:Mrs Merkel has described Mr Schroeder’s claims as “shameful”. She told the German parliament that there was “no way” that the Kosovo crisis could be compared with Russia’s intervention in Crimea.

An attempt by the German Green Party to ban Mr Schroeder from speaking in public about Ukraine was narrowly defeated in the European parliament on Thursday.

Western Democracy in action!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnew...raine.html

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03-15-2014 07:11 PM
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Post: #224
RE: Ukraine conflict lounge
(03-15-2014 05:51 PM)Roosh Wrote:  
Quote:He can't occupy Ukraine.

He can and he will. There will be nukes from NATO, there will be no military involvement, just token sanctions. It's Putin's game to lose.

No from a military standpoint he can't. Its Not like putin can call all his army groups. He needs at least half of his army at different points in Russia.(china border and Checnya).that leaves at most 300k.
In a defensive call up Ukraine can muster at least that many and more. Remember its an invasion every able man and women will defend. I know a guy who lives in a town south of Kiev and he has said the whole town has passed out weapons and made fields of fire.
Putin can blitzkrieg but he doesn't have the man power for a long term occupation of a country the size of Ukraine. Most of Putins army is also inexperienced conscripts as well.

Edit: @Seboist..the best he could do is take the land east of Dneiper..but that includes oblasts that aren't pro Russian and he still has at least 50% in the east who don't want occupation. Add that the the fact that Ukraine will fight then.... Russia will bleed. The amount of miles of border he would have to control is too much.
(This post was last modified: 03-15-2014 07:31 PM by jimukr104.)
03-15-2014 07:14 PM
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Post: #225
RE: Ukraine conflict lounge
Putin wouldn't occupy all of mainland Ukraine, only the russophone eastern section.
(This post was last modified: 03-15-2014 07:25 PM by Yatagan.)
03-15-2014 07:25 PM
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