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higher education bubble?
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TonySandos Offline
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Post: #51
RE: higher education bubble?
hell, im all ears for any advice or relevant information. since ive avoided the college debt machine so far im trying to maintain this track record
03-21-2014 12:40 AM
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Samseau Offline
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Post: #52
RE: higher education bubble?
(03-20-2014 10:09 PM)samsamsam Wrote:  I get college is pushed etc, but there is plenty of info floating out there about college and school loans and jobs. At some point, people get to be responsible. For example, mortgages, yes there were people that were royally fucked/cheated during the recent housing boom being charged more than they should have. But some people were just greedy thought they were going to make a lot of money, instead had mortgages they didn't understand (nor tried to understand - let's be fair) and then they walked.

All of them got to declare bankruptcy, as is customary within the American legal system. But for some reason students cannot? Fraud.

By the way - unsubstantiated taxes are why the colonists revolted in the first place.

Quote:Worse yet, some people bought another cheaper house, got a great mortgage and strategically defaulted on the original house. So I just can't say yes normal citizens are victims. A lot of people are happy if they get the upside, and perfectly ok about walking if they bet wrong. That creates a bad dynamic.

It creates a bad dynamic for the banks. Banks must decide on the risk. Not the government.

Quote:No school can promise you a job, if you get bad grades and show up to interviews drunk (just exagerating for effect), still the schools can get sued? Please.

And concurrently, if the student upholds his or her end of the bargain then the schools are liable to uphold their end of the bargain.

And if one party stops performing then the other party may also stop performing.

Thus with the student loan bubble you are not looking at people who pissed away their youth, but instead a majority of today's youth is stuck paying off an unfair bill. You make it sound like the student loan bubble was created by a bunch of welfare queens leeching the system. Rather, it was made by "the best and the brightest" minds of the nation.

The effects of the student loan bubble are obvious:

[Image: First%20Time%20Homebuyers.png]

^ Percentage of first-time buyers of new home purchases in 2013

Quote:NAR President Steve Brown, co-owner of Irongate, Inc., Realtors® in Dayton, Ohio, said student debt appears to be a factor in the weak level of first-time buyers. “The biggest problems for first-time buyers are tight credit and limited inventory in the lower price ranges,” he said. “However, 20 percent of buyers under the age of 33, the prime group of first-time buyers, delayed their purchase because of outstanding debt. In our recent consumer survey, 56 percent of younger buyers who took longer to save for a downpayment identified student debt as the biggest obstacle.

http://www.realtor.org/news-releases/201...in-subdued

56%! This is not just a bunch of bums who aren't working. These are most of the nation's youth who are putting off family and buying a house because they do not want to pay for both their student debt and mortgage debt.

And this scam only continues to grow. Every year, college attendence rates reach new highs:

Quote:In recent years, the percentage increase in the number of students age 25 and over has been larger than the percentage increase in the number of younger students, and this pattern is expected to continue. Between 2000 and 2010, the enrollment of students under age 25 increased by 34 percent. Enrollment of students 25 and over rose 42 percent during the same period. From 2010 to 2020, NCES projects a rise of 11 percent in enrollments of students under 25, and a rise of 20 percent in enrollments of students 25 and over.

http://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=98

So really now, what else is there to be said for this scam that is college?

By the way, I like how everyone here says, "Just go into a STEM field and you'll do okay!"

Retarded advice. If everyone did that, then within 10 years these fields would be overcrowded and no more jobs would be left. It is as cardguy said on page 1 - college isn't effective at creating jobs. The solution isn't for more degrees, it is for less people to get degrees.

Quote:People are idiots if they feel this way. If they feel this way and can't think out of a paper bag, then they deserve the debt. Better they have that debt and force them to make certain decisions than to not have it and make even dumber decisions.

Your strawman here was refuted above. It is not merely a few idiots being saddled with debt. It is over half of the country's youth and it is growing larger every day. If the current college loans continue to grow at the current pace then within 3 generations everyone will be debt slaves. It is obviously unsustainable.

Quote:College is useless unless you are clear what you are there to achieve and go into the right majors. But people expect too much if they think they are to be handheld through life.

Edit: Also, if banks believed what you believed in the above points, they just wouldn't lend. No skin off their back (yes hurts earnings, etc) but better less income than more losses due to people bk'ing their school debt.

Good. And then less people would go to college if there were less loans. They'd have to figure out how to earn an honest living, and the girls would be forced to get a husband to provide for them instead of learning how to whore themselves out in college.

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(This post was last modified: 03-21-2014 01:47 AM by Samseau.)
03-21-2014 01:40 AM
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caracal Offline
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Post: #53
RE: higher education bubble?
A perspective on higher education in Australia...

Universities are no longer interested in producing quality graduates with a well-rounded education. They are solely focused on making money. I have witnessed full-fee paying international students being spoonfed answers and even local students have had their grades increased after the most hamsterish arguments.

Unless the degree is engineering, medicine, dentistry, vet science or law, I see no point in spending $20,000+ on something that drains three or four years out of your life (not only do you pay for the privilege, you also have three or four years where you have far less capacity to earn) Most Australians can get a loan from the government for their tuition and pay it back once their income reaches a certain level, however law (for example) costs the most to study but is one of the cheapest degrees to teach. This is because the cost of the degree is based on expected earnings despite law not having the prestige or earnings potential for most people it once did.

Student debt in Australian has more than doubled to over $26 billion in the last six years; given Australia's smaller population, all things being equal in the United States that amount would be $390 billion. This debt is swelled by people studying degrees such as psychology despite the dearth of positions available, and females who go to university for two or three years, have kids and never reach the income required to pay it back.
03-21-2014 07:10 AM
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The Beast1 Offline
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Post: #54
RE: higher education bubble?
(03-21-2014 01:40 AM)Samseau Wrote:  By the way, I like how everyone here says, "Just go into a STEM field and you'll do okay!"

Retarded advice. If everyone did that, then within 10 years these fields would be overcrowded and no more jobs would be left. It is as cardguy said on page 1 - college isn't effective at creating jobs. The solution isn't for more degrees, it is for less people to get degrees.

The advice is good because most STEM fields are incredibly difficult for most people to go through. They're this way because the dangers of giving a substandard engineer a degree is well obvious. Do we really want a civil engineer that doesn't understand weight distribution and basic calculus?

Most people and men should be focused on blue collar jobs and our government which has gutted that entire part of our country needs to start putting more emphasis on building stuff instead of intellectual junk that has no value. The whole system is a giant ecosystem that needs to work together, otherwise you get this unhealthy system of gunk we have now.
03-21-2014 07:24 AM
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ddjembe mutombo Offline
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Post: #55
RE: higher education bubble?
If you are a cutthroat competitor then I'd advise business (preferably math related business such as supply chain, accounting and finance). If you are a puss, then you won't ever succeed with a business degree and you should stick with STEM to have a good chance at success.

However, we need all the idiots getting liberal arts degrees so all the truly intelligent can keep getting good paying jobs. I remember Texas was considering requiring HS to be a five year process where you graduate with an associates degree. The idea is that people would get better jobs out of high school, but obviously these 'rule makers' never studied economics. When we raise the education standard then we just have more educated fry cooks. Same thing goes for raising minimum wage. When you bring the wage floor up you do not increase quality of living for those in that situation. All you do is increase the cost of living for everyone else. It is all supply and demand at its basics.
03-21-2014 11:01 AM
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samsamsam Offline
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Post: #56
RE: higher education bubble?
(03-21-2014 01:40 AM)Samseau Wrote:  
Quote:College is useless unless you are clear what you are there to achieve and go into the right majors. But people expect too much if they think they are to be handheld through life.

Edit: Also, if banks believed what you believed in the above points, they just wouldn't lend. No skin off their back (yes hurts earnings, etc) but better less income than more losses due to people bk'ing their school debt.

Good. And then less people would go to college if there were less loans. They'd have to figure out how to earn an honest living, and the girls would be forced to get a husband to provide for them instead of learning how to whore themselves out in college.
I am good with this, lol. We agree.

Keep in mind the one thing about bk'ing of houses etc is the asset is returned to the bank.

Granted the education kids get these days is crap, but still they have "knowledge" and it cannot be removed. They can claim to be a college grad. Now if they were banned from ever applying for jobs requiring college degrees, then maybe I could live with it.

Not everyone needs to go to college, much like not everyone needs to be CEO. There must be cogs and those cogs don't need degrees.

And to give some perspective, I voted for Obama twice, I am all for Obamacare because the number one reason (if I remember correctly) that people run into financial hardships is healthcare costs. http://www.cnbc.com/id/100840148
We can argue that people should not get fat and take better care of themselves but I am not cool with the "greatest country" on earth not providing health care for its people. I judge by issues.

But education is a choice and we cannot eliminate all personal responsibility from our lives.

To me this summarizes why college has gone to shit. Everything is pitched as easy, only way people want to do anything. I fucking hate this commercial. However, I would bang Biggrin



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(This post was last modified: 03-21-2014 11:10 AM by samsamsam.)
03-21-2014 11:05 AM
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Samseau Offline
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Post: #57
RE: higher education bubble?
(03-21-2014 11:05 AM)samsamsam Wrote:  
(03-21-2014 01:40 AM)Samseau Wrote:  
Quote:College is useless unless you are clear what you are there to achieve and go into the right majors. But people expect too much if they think they are to be handheld through life.

Edit: Also, if banks believed what you believed in the above points, they just wouldn't lend. No skin off their back (yes hurts earnings, etc) but better less income than more losses due to people bk'ing their school debt.

Good. And then less people would go to college if there were less loans. They'd have to figure out how to earn an honest living, and the girls would be forced to get a husband to provide for them instead of learning how to whore themselves out in college.
I am good with this, lol. We agree.

Keep in mind the one thing about bk'ing of houses etc is the asset is returned to the bank.

Likewise, if students go bankrupt and banks want collateral I think they should be able to make a claim against the schools.

Why aren't the schools held accountable in all of this? They are the ones who were expected to give students the skills and education to perform in the economy.

Instead, the schools are left off the hook with absolutely no blame thrown their way. And all the schools do is continue to raise salaries of their administration and build tons of new buildings without any corresponding increase in the quality of education.

This seems to me to be a major mistake. The schools are liable when millions of students are being systematically scammed and should bear most of the costs.

Quote:And to give some perspective, I voted for Obama twice, I am all for Obamacare because the number one reason (if I remember correctly) that people run into financial hardships is healthcare costs.

Well it's obvious your education didn't do you much good. Tongue

Quote: http://www.cnbc.com/id/100840148
We can argue that people should not get fat and take better care of themselves but I am not cool with the "greatest country" on earth not providing health care for its people. I judge by issues.

But education is a choice and we cannot eliminate all personal responsibility from our lives.

So on one hand you say students should be bankrupted for being brainwashed as a kid, since it was "their choice to go to college," but if an adult becomes a fatass due to laziness he/she should be bailed out by the government?

That's a contradiction. Either you believe in personal responsibility or you don't. I'm a libertarian, and I do believe in personal responsibility for adults, you cannot blame kids for going to college when they receive indoctrination for 12 years.

And the great irony of Obamacare is that prices are skyrocketing, and no one can afford the affordable healthcare act.

Quote:To me this summarizes why college has gone to shit. Everything is pitched as easy, only way people want to do anything. I fucking hate this commercial. However, I would bang Biggrin



Like I said, I don't know why the schools aren't held liable as they clearly the ones most exploiting the system.

Since Americans are retarded, and since money rules Washington, they will bailout the schools just like they bailed out the banks even though the banks were extremely complicit in the housing bubble.

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(This post was last modified: 03-21-2014 11:23 AM by Samseau.)
03-21-2014 11:23 AM
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Suits Offline
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Post: #58
RE: higher education bubble?
Let's think about competition between institutions of higher education.

People have already begun questioning the viability of completing undergraduate degrees and while most high school students still experience pressure to enrol in a college program, as this discussion grows, they'll begin feeling pressure to consider all their options.

Colleges are already bending over backwards to try to sell their services, making various arguments for why they are the obvious choice.

At some point, these schools will have actually go beyond lip service and offer real qualifications in addition to the traditional college degree. Some possibilities I can see emerging:

1. College degree with trade qualification (ex. BBA degree with electrician apprenticeship - you graduate with a college degree and fully certified as an electrician).

2. College degree with a mixture of internship, advanced language training and roughly two years of traditional classroom attendance.
03-21-2014 02:48 PM
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