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Wikipedia just published its article on the manosphere
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Vicious Offline
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Post: #276
RE: Wikipedia just published its article on the manosphere
(06-03-2014 02:17 PM)Truth Teller Wrote:  ^^ That was a very good post. By the way, I agree that Speed Seduction, as a system, is nonsense.

What about it is nonsense? Have you gone through the material, the actual courses?
Most of what the manosphere today refers to as inner game, the believes of a player and self-work is derived directly from SS.

Fun trivia: David deAngelo was a student of Ross Jeffries. RJ even had a testimonial by him under DD's real name on his webpage for years.
(This post was last modified: 06-03-2014 02:42 PM by Vicious.)
06-03-2014 02:42 PM
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Post: #277
RE: Wikipedia just published its article on the manosphere
This is a fascinating thread. I'm new to the manosphere and Game. To me the biggest takeaway I've gotten from the sphere has been the drive for self improvement--lifting, nutrition, dress, social skills, social capital, work, etc. I feel like this is the biggest value the sphere offers men, and probably the one thing PUA/MRAs/MGTOW can agree is good. When/where did that self improvement element come from?
06-03-2014 02:52 PM
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Post: #278
RE: Wikipedia just published its article on the manosphere
(06-03-2014 02:42 PM)Vicious Wrote:  
(06-03-2014 02:17 PM)Truth Teller Wrote:  ^^ That was a very good post. By the way, I agree that Speed Seduction, as a system, is nonsense.

What about it is nonsense? Have you gone through the material, the actual courses?
Most of what the manosphere today refers to as inner game, the believes of a player and self-work is derived directly from SS.

Fun trivia: David deAngelo was a student of Ross Jeffries. RJ even had a testimonial by him under DD's real name on his webpage for years.

I know that David DeAngelo stemmed from Jeffries. I've read the very old material. I knew that some of the inner game stuff was from SS, but not how much.

I have an inherent issue with anything that tells people "How to fake as though you were warm and friendly." Maybe that's just me.
06-03-2014 03:03 PM
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Vicious Offline
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Post: #279
RE: Wikipedia just published its article on the manosphere
That's an eye-grabbing headline from his pamphlet-thin first book which he himself said was outdated by the early 00's. RJ advocated overcoming your own bitterness and being a better person as the best way to get ahead from the release of the 2ed of his home course. 2001 I think.

Like MikeCF mentioned earlier we all go through that phase of bitterness towards women and wanting to get back at them when we start out getting power from game. Some are stuck in that and some can transcend it.
(This post was last modified: 06-03-2014 03:14 PM by Vicious.)
06-03-2014 03:13 PM
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MattW Offline
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Post: #280
RE: Wikipedia just published its article on the manosphere
(05-31-2014 03:20 PM)Tuthmosis Wrote:  I'm picturing something like this, but professionally done (and correctly calibrated for the true overlaps).

Like this (except I'm guessing you'd put less neo-reaction and more game, mgtow, masculine development type stuff):

[Image: bJLeIOr.png]

from here
(This post was last modified: 06-03-2014 03:32 PM by MattW.)
06-03-2014 03:24 PM
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Post: #281
RE: Wikipedia just published its article on the manosphere
(06-03-2014 03:24 PM)MattW Wrote:  
(05-31-2014 03:20 PM)Tuthmosis Wrote:  I'm picturing something like this, but professionally done (and correctly calibrated for the true overlaps).

Like this (except I'm guess you'd put less neo-reaction and more game, mgtow, masculine development type stuff):

[Image: bJLeIOr.png]

from here

The format of that map is not one of the best.
Maybe just put dots of different colours, then add a legend. Too clogged for me.

Je suis le roi du monde!!!
06-03-2014 03:26 PM
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Post: #282
RE: Wikipedia just published its article on the manosphere
(06-03-2014 03:13 PM)Vicious Wrote:  Like MikeCF mentioned earlier we all go through that phase of bitterness towards women and wanting to get back at them when we start out getting power from game. Some are stuck in that and some can transcend it.

I had an early advantage for having an older sister, with four girls her age in the houses each side of us, two up the road, and no boys in the block to play with.

I'd have to entertain myself, so would usually be doing my own thing then they'd get together and talk and gossip, and I'd hear everything. Teenage girls don't censor themselves when one of their invisible dorky little brothers is around.

It never even occurred to me to put women on a pedestal. I knew exactly what they pretended to be to manipulate men.

Now that women are more arrogant about their power, they're forgetting manipulation by stealth and are open about concepts like the Friend Zone and 'settling', which I see as a good thing. The more these concepts are mainstreamed, the less delusions young guys will have about women, bitterness should ease, and they'll have more control over their dating lives.

Hell, the friend zone is mainstream enough now that one of the national papers here describes Jorah Mormont in Game Of Thrones as 'Friend Zone' without identifying him by name. Everyone knows who they mean.
06-03-2014 03:33 PM
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Post: #283
RE: Wikipedia just published its article on the manosphere
(06-03-2014 03:26 PM)mikado Wrote:  
(06-03-2014 03:24 PM)MattW Wrote:  
(05-31-2014 03:20 PM)Tuthmosis Wrote:  I'm picturing something like this, but professionally done (and correctly calibrated for the true overlaps).

Like this (except I'm guess you'd put less neo-reaction and more game, mgtow, masculine development type stuff):

[Image: bJLeIOr.png]

from here

The format of that map is not one of the best.
Maybe just put dots of different colours, then add a legend. Too clogged for me.

Wow this is one of the best maps i've ever seen. It really grabs the entire sphere in different interests.

Shalom Alechem!
06-04-2014 09:49 AM
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kbell Offline
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Post: #284
RE: Wikipedia just published its article on the manosphere
I would say the manosphere existed much longer than the 90s. Men have always talked about women. You can see this with Casonova, the Bible and probably many other texts. Some stories that come to mind of womens herd mentality and beta supplicating is Adam and Eve. Lillith is the first feminist who was Adam's "equal" yet would go on to eat babies (now its abort them). Women in Biblical times were not meant to teach others and it was hard to find a good woman than too. There had to be guys talking about the nature of women than as well and most likely as long as they could speak.

Political correctness has for quite awhile prevent many from talking about reality, although others in the past sure did.
(This post was last modified: 06-04-2014 10:58 AM by kbell.)
06-04-2014 10:57 AM
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cardguy Offline
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Post: #285
RE: Wikipedia just published its article on the manosphere
(06-03-2014 02:17 PM)Truth Teller Wrote:  ^^ That was a very good post. By the way, I agree that Speed Seduction, as a system, is nonsense. Also, this may be a "white knight" argument, but I think there's something inherently sleazy about hypnotizing someone into sex.

Hypnosis is not a real thing and doesn't exist.

So - no woman has to worry about ever being hypnotised into giving up pussy.
06-04-2014 12:38 PM
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Post: #286
RE: Wikipedia just published its article on the manosphere
I see that the Wikipedia article is now much improved: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manosphere

It's a little light on the substance of the manosphere but that's fine, and maybe even a goos thing - if they want to understand it more they can seek it out from there, instead of reading something that Wikipedia has deemed appropriate.
06-04-2014 01:51 PM
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Vicious Offline
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RE: Wikipedia just published its article on the manosphere
(06-04-2014 12:38 PM)cardguy Wrote:  Hypnosis is not a real thing and doesn't exist.

So - no woman has to worry about ever being hypnotised into giving up pussy.

I hope this is a joke. Hypnosis is in several disciplines something so developed and accepted that it is part of medical treatments and behaviour modification.

Hypnosis isn't some hocus pocus like people who have read about it in superhero comics seem to think. I have done it. It's not particularly hard if you study it and set your mind to it.

Please, if you are going to be a self-admitted celibate. Don't comment on real life techniques that demand real life application.
06-04-2014 02:49 PM
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RE: Wikipedia just published its article on the manosphere
(06-04-2014 12:38 PM)cardguy Wrote:  Hypnosis is not a real thing and doesn't exist.

So - no woman has to worry about ever being hypnotised into giving up pussy.

CG: You have an analytical, critical mind and are operating on a level of higher thought. A while ago I said my hatred of the 110 IQ University Set is that they can't conceptualise higher thought. It works in reverse. Less complex minds are easily-suggestible.

You're not going to be able to be hypnotised because you'll have three other thought processes running simultaneously in your mind, and you'll also be actively-trying to resist suggestion to 'disprove' it in your mind.

Less advanced minds, god bless 'em, are suggestible enough to believe everything they're taught at university without ever questioning the academics. Look how quickly the 'privilege' thing because accepted, unquestioned dogma. You don't think these mundane thinkers are capable of being hypnotised?

However, I do think there's some degree of female hysteria involved in hypnosis that relates back to my earlier theory that women crave the absolute destruction of self and wish to become pure emotion. I've seen women hypnotised in therapy doing what I would consider performing what they think being hypnotised is, so I'm wary of it in terms of repressed memories, etc.

The idea you could use hypnosis in game to 'hypnotise' a woman in a crowded club is laughable to me, and would be much harder than just naturally selling your charisma and personality. I don't think you can make a girl sleep with you who hasn't already decided you're fuckable to begin with: all game does is speed up the process of her making the decision to fuck you by heightening her emotional state, overriding logic - which is where they want to exist anyway - thereby negating a woman's natural inability to make a firm decision about anything without incessantly-questioning it both before, and after.
06-04-2014 04:23 PM
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Post: #289
RE: Wikipedia just published its article on the manosphere
So what sort of concensus do we have here gentlemen?

Shalom Alechem!
06-04-2014 04:43 PM
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RE: Wikipedia just published its article on the manosphere
It could be expanded.

Did they try to shake you up over including some content?
06-04-2014 04:51 PM
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cardguy Offline
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RE: Wikipedia just published its article on the manosphere
(06-04-2014 02:49 PM)Vicious Wrote:  
(06-04-2014 12:38 PM)cardguy Wrote:  Hypnosis is not a real thing and doesn't exist.

So - no woman has to worry about ever being hypnotised into giving up pussy.

I hope this is a joke. Hypnosis is in several disciplines something so developed and accepted that it is part of medical treatments and behaviour modification.

Hypnosis isn't some hocus pocus like people who have read about it in superhero comics seem to think. I have done it. It's not particularly hard if you study it and set your mind to it.

Please, if you are going to be a self-admitted celibate. Don't comment on real life techniques that demand real life application.

I was talking about using hypnosis to get pussy off women.

The use of hypnosis techniques over the long term to correct behavioural problems is a separate field all together - along the lines of Cognitive Behaviour Therapy.

In terms of using hypnosis to make a fool of somebody or to get them to do something they don't want to do then it is true to say it doesn't exist.

It is essentially a magic trick - but a very subtle one. One that actually fools many professional hypnotists - funnily enough.

Instead of making you think I have made somebody disappear or levitated - I am selling you the illusion that I have 'hypnotised' somebody. When in fact no hypnosis has taken place. The trick takes place in the minds of those watching as opposed to those on stage.

You see people on a stage running around looking like idiots. There are various reasons why this takes place - but none of them involve hypnosis. Yet your mind interprets those actions to suggest that the spectators are completely brainwashed - when in fact they are not.

Which is why you can hypnotise somebody to do something which may be a little foolish - within the confines of a 'stage show'. But you can never hypnotise somebody to do something they would never wish to do in a million years - such as murder somebody, harm themselves or sleep with an unattractive member of the opposite sex.

The only way you can prove hypnosis is real is to get a hypnotised subject to do something that I would never do. If eating a lemon and running round naked (which is very rare in hypnosis shows) is all it takes - then name the date and I will be there.

Anyway - I am a world expert in the field of magic - so I have a fairly good understanding of how the mind is fooled and the number of different levels deception can work on. As well as an understanding of hypnosis itself. The key point about hypnosis is that it is impossible to be "ypnotised" unless you believe in hypnosis to begin with. It is a completely circular belief system. A bit like love by the way - but that is a separate issue.

And for the last time - I am not celibate. MGTOW does not equal celibate. My sex life is mostly based around hookers, lapdances and porn. I'm a dirty fucker.

Which part of that involves being celibate?
(This post was last modified: 06-04-2014 04:57 PM by cardguy.)
06-04-2014 04:51 PM
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RE: Wikipedia just published its article on the manosphere
(06-04-2014 04:51 PM)cardguy Wrote:  In terms of using hypnosis to make a fool of somebody or to get them to do something they don't want to do then it is true to say it doesn't exist.

It is essentially a magic trick - but a very subtle one. One that actually fools many professional hypnotists - funnily enough.

Instead of making you think I have made somebody disappear or levitated - I am selling you the illusion that I have 'hypnotised' somebody. When in fact no hypnosis has taken place. The trick takes place in the minds of those watching as opposed to those on stage.

You see people on a stage running around looking like idiots. There are various reasons why this takes place - but none of them involve hypnosis. Yet your mind interprets those actions to suggest that the spectators are completely brainwashed - when in fact they are not.

Which is why you can hypnotise somebody to do something which may be a little foolish - within the confines of a 'stage show'. But you can never hypnotise somebody to do something they would never wish to do in a million years - such as murder somebody, harm themselves or sleep with an unattractive member of the opposite sex.

The only way you can prove hypnosis is real is to get a hypnotised subject to do something that I would never do. If eating a lemon and running round naked (which is very rare in hypnosis shows) is all it takes - then name the date and I will be there.

Anyway - I am a world expert in the field of magic - so I have a fairly good understanding of how the mind is fooled and the number of different levels deception can work on. As well as an understanding of hypnosis itself. The key point about hypnosis is that it is impossible to be "ypnotised" unless you believe in hypnosis to begin with. It is a completely circular belief system. A bit like love by the way - but that is a separate issue.

And for the last time - I am not celibate. MGTOW does not equal celibate. My sex life is mostly based around hookers, lapdances and porn. I'm a dirty fucker.

Which part of that involves being celibate?


Im curious. Why do people run around stage looking like idiots? If it isnt staged or real hypnosis, you would think the chance of failure is high.
06-04-2014 05:05 PM
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cardguy Offline
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RE: Wikipedia just published its article on the manosphere
The state of mind involved in hypnosis is a very interesting one.

Let me see if I can explain some more what I am driving at.

My hearing is quite poor - so as a kid I was used to my mum being able to point something out which I couldn't quite hear (the phone ringing etc).

Anyway - when I was about 9 - on Christmas Eve - my Mum told me she could hear the bells ringing from Santa's sleigh.

I couldn't hear it at first - but pretty soon I convinced myself I could.

I did it because I had a belief in Santa - and it seemed natural to me that my Mum could hear something that I couldn't quite make out. And it seemed equally natural that if I really concentrated that I too would hear the bells ringing.

And at the time I was convinced I did hear the bells ringing. Although buried deep inside me was the realisation that I WANTED to hear those bells more than I could actually hear them.

At that level of belief - it becomes hard to be sure exactly what you believe in that split second.

But you have to understand - that at no point was I actually hearing something. Or even fully sure I could.

The same thing happens with a subject on stage during a hypnosis show.

First thing you forget is this.

The hypnotist on stage asks for volunteers from the crowd. Lets say the crowd is about 300 people (the more the better - you will see why).

Maybe 30 people come on stage.

Now - what has happened here. Well - quite a lot.

First of all this is a HYPNOSIS show. By definition - everyone in the audience has an interest in hypnosis. Some will be skeptical, some will be curious, some will be show-offs (dying to jump on stage) and others will already be strong believers in hypnosis.

You then ask for volunteers to come up on stage.

Straight away - you have reduced the crowd to the 30 people who are either the biggest show-offs or the biggest believers in hypnosis.

A few simple hypnosis tasks take place (imagine you are Elvis - imagine you have a bunch of kittens who you have to gather up etc)- and in any show - you will see the stage hypnosis send a lot of the subjects back to their seat.

The stage hypnotist is looking for good subjects. But by this he doesn't mean people susceptible to hypnosis. He is just looking for show-offs (there are always a few in any big crowd) as well those who totally by into the idea of hypnosis as 'real' phenomena.

Pretty soon - the 30 people on stage are whittled down to about 7 people.

And of those 7 people - one person will tend to be the 'star' of the show who does the most extreme things.

Through this sieving effect - a curious self selection takes place.

You see - when you are on a stage surrounded by 6 other people who seem to be totally hypnotised - it actually reassures you (if any doubts creep up on you) that you too must be hypnotised.

Often in a hypnosis show - each person on stage will develop doubts of some kind - but quickly silence them as they look around them and see perfectly ordinary people acting like maniacs.

But hear is the neat thing - the job of the stage hypnotist is not to "hypnotise" the people on stage. His job is to convince the people in the audience that the people on stage have being "hypnotised".

That sounds like the same thing - but it couldn't be more different.

When you see somebody on a stage dancing to a broom or trying to kiss a giant inflatable banana - it is only natural for the person in the audience to imagine they are completely brainwashed.

But it really isn't true - indeed - the great thing about hypnosis shows - is that the longer spectator is on stage and the more silly things they have done - the more they are 'blackmailed' into continuing until the very end.

Why?

What is more embarrassing? Making a fool of yourself for 40 minutes on stage - whilst under 'hypnosis' (which everybody in the audience believes is a real thing). Or suddenly - 20 minutes into the show - when you are in the middle of rendition of a Frank Sinatra song - sung in the style of Daffy Duck - to suddenly hold your hand up, apologise to the audience and admit that you are no longer hypnotised or never have being for most of the show?

Hypnosis is a delicious trick. It is literally the Keyser Soze of magic tricks. Since it works on so many levels. It is actually a very complex subject to entangle - since there are so many layers of belief, deception and social pressure involved.

And you could just be lazy, wave your hand and call thee whole thing hypnosis. But it really is not hypnosis in the sense that most people think of it. It is something quite ordinary and unremarkable - but structured in a way that people fall victim to their own beliefs, the situation they have signed up to on stage and the beliefs that those watching bring to the show.

I should add that James Randi agrees with what I say above. As does Derren Brown and as does one of the best hypnotists in the world who I have discussed this matter with. And he had discussions with the best hypnotists of the generation before him who also said the same thing. I can discuss this all day - the above just touches on what I want to say.

I find this an interesting subject - since I think it applies to areas involving love and religion as well. But I will just leave it at this - since I want to keep my analysis relatively short and clear.

Hypnosis is unique in magic. Since it is the only trick I know of where you are fooled before you even attend the show.
(This post was last modified: 06-04-2014 05:32 PM by cardguy.)
06-04-2014 05:29 PM
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RE: Wikipedia just published its article on the manosphere
^ Interesting, CG. Seems to relate back to what I said above about thinking certain women were performing what they think a hypnotised person is.

So, following this train of thought, when it's used in Cognitive Behaviour Therapy, would it be the person isn't actually programmed to not smoke, but has been fooled into giving themselves the mental permission to drawn on their own reserves of willpower to not smoke?
06-04-2014 05:37 PM
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RE: Wikipedia just published its article on the manosphere
Yeah - I have never thought much about CBT or the use of hypnosis in therapy.

But it does remind me a little of Dumbo the Flying Elephant.

Dumbo could actually fly.

Yet he had to be given "the magic feather" to make him believe he could fly.

Even though the feather did precisely nothing.



(This post was last modified: 06-04-2014 05:44 PM by cardguy.)
06-04-2014 05:43 PM
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RE: Wikipedia just published its article on the manosphere
(06-04-2014 04:51 PM)cardguy Wrote:  I was talking about using hypnosis to get pussy off women.

The use of hypnosis techniques over the long term to correct behavioural problems is a separate field all together - along the lines of Cognitive Behaviour Therapy.

In terms of using hypnosis to make a fool of somebody or to get them to do something they don't want to do then it is true to say it doesn't exist.

But you're not saying this, or rather you're saying several things in the same post.

Quote:It is essentially a magic trick - but a very subtle one. One that actually fools many professional hypnotists - funnily enough.

Instead of making you think I have made somebody disappear or levitated - I am selling you the illusion that I have 'hypnotised' somebody. When in fact no hypnosis has taken place. The trick takes place in the minds of those watching as opposed to those on stage.

You see people on a stage running around looking like idiots. There are various reasons why this takes place - but none of them involve hypnosis. Yet your mind interprets those actions to suggest that the spectators are completely brainwashed - when in fact they are not.

Which is why you can hypnotise somebody to do something which may be a little foolish - within the confines of a 'stage show'. But you can never hypnotise somebody to do something they would never wish to do in a million years - such as murder somebody, harm themselves or sleep with an unattractive member of the opposite sex.

In the first paragraph you wave away medical application as a different field and thus not relevant to what you said. Now you're using stage magic/hypnosis, yet another field, to try to prove your original point.

You're cherry picking.

Quote:The only way you can prove hypnosis is real is to get a hypnotised subject to do something that I would never do. If eating a lemon and running round naked (which is very rare in hypnosis shows) is all it takes - then name the date and I will be there.

You've changed the definition of what hypnosis is and you now put up criteria on how it is "proven".

Straw man.

Quote:Anyway - I am a world expert in the field of magic - so I have a fairly good understanding of how the mind is fooled and the number of different levels deception can work on. As well as an understanding of hypnosis itself. The key point about hypnosis is that it is impossible to be "ypnotised" unless you believe in hypnosis to begin with. It is a completely circular belief system. A bit like love by the way - but that is a separate issue.

If you actively disbelieve any kind of information you are presented you are not going to reap the benefit of it. This is not something unique to hypnosis.

Religious faith and comfort in prayer is a large part of the same mechanism. There's no trick to it, it's a testament to the power our mind (brain) has over our bodies.

Congratulations on being a good at magic. Hypnosis it is not.

I invite ANY repped (on game) member I meet in the future on the forum to ask me for a demonstration of hypnosis in person. It's nothing spectacular or time consuming.

Quote:And for the last time - I am not celibate. MGTOW does not equal celibate. My sex life is mostly based around hookers, lapdances and porn. I'm a dirty fucker.

Which part of that involves being celibate?

My mistake, doesn't change my exhortation though.
06-04-2014 05:48 PM
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RE: Wikipedia just published its article on the manosphere
As per my analysis of stage hypnosis - the ironic thing is that most stage hypnotists don't really understand what is going on.

It is because they actually believe in their own BS - that they are so good at it. The same is true of stage psychics by the way.

Indeed - Orson Welles talked about this one time.





The reason I mention all this is because is because asking your average stage hypnotist about hypnosis is a bit like asking your average priest about religion.

And as with religion - I believe you will get a much clearer sense of what is going on in the minds of religious people if you ask a skeptic who has though deeply about the psychology involved and has done exepriments in this area.

As opposed to asking a priest who will dismiss you with some mumbo jumbo about "God".
06-04-2014 05:49 PM
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cardguy Offline
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Post: #298
RE: Wikipedia just published its article on the manosphere
Hey Vicious,

I respect what you say. Maybe there is somewhere beneath all this where we agree - and we are just talking past each other?

Or maybe not.

Either is fine with me - since I have said what I wanted to say. So - at least I cannot complain if you think what I have written is incorrect - since what I wrote is a good summation of my thinking in this area.

For awhile - I have being trying to find a brilliant educational YouTube video I saw once. It was by a stage hypnotist - and it provided a running commentary on exactly what was involved in his act and what he was thinking during his show. It is was very revealing to see the subtleties involved than most people in the audience would never think to look out for. And it really helped show how the performance could be stage managed and manipulated - in an indirect manner - and without the use of any hypnosis.

I will report back if I ever find the video.

Cardguy

PS Vicious? Your ability to demonstrate hypnosis is not the issue at stake here. The issue at stake is how we should interpret what is going on in the mind of the "hypnotised subject".
(This post was last modified: 06-04-2014 06:04 PM by cardguy.)
06-04-2014 05:54 PM
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cardguy Offline
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Post: #299
RE: Wikipedia just published its article on the manosphere
This isn't the video I was looking for - but it gives a flavour of what I am trying to explain.

I should add that I am a huge fan of Penn and Teller - and I have yet to watch this episode.

But I know already they will agree with everything I have already said in this thread:





I will check the video out myself when I have more time later in the week. So - I won't know if my prediction that P&T totally agree with me until then is correct or not.

But this is one prediction I won't be sweating...
06-04-2014 06:02 PM
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Hotwheels Offline
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Post: #300
RE: Wikipedia just published its article on the manosphere
This was good until being derailed into hypnosis... Not an expert by any means, but I look at NLP as suggestion more than true hypnosis. Back in the day I recall reading a little bit about it and found I already used some of the same speech patterns due to sales training and personal experience.


Seeing MrSex4uNYC brought up was a blast from the past as I stumbled across alt.seduction.fast around 98 or 99. Wonder if Svengali's stuff is archived. He was an older, suited up player while Sex4U was a younger, weightlifting sort so it was interesting to compare their techniques.

As far as the debate over who belongs in the "manosphere" I'll leave that others that have read more of it. Just know that there are a lot of us that have lived that basic lifestyle our entire lives. I just call myself a "traditionalist" that has seen where society is going and have adjusted my expectations and actions to suit.

44 and never married while having bedposts full of notches.

__________________________________________________

When you can't make them see the light, make them feel the heat.
06-04-2014 06:26 PM
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