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Why Hasn't Game Worked?
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Gorgiass Offline
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Post: #201
RE: Why Hasn't Game Worked?
If you can torrent (or pay through the nose for them) it might be worthwhile to go old school and give the Love Systems interviews "Physical escalation and kissing", and "On seduction" a listen. I've been relistening to my collection and realized I still get a lot of value from the series.

Two points I'd make on touching 1: touch early whether its a hug, high five, playful shoulder/hip bump, or simple handshake to establish yourself as a touchy guy, once you pass the initial touch it's easier and seems more natural for her when you continue this pattern with occasional light, quick touches for emphasis progressing to longer touches when you're isolated. 2: talk while you touch. If you touch her and then pause, I would say even at the end of the sentence where you normally wouldn't, you tell her that that touch threw you off and was a big deal to you, which means that you place yourself as lower value and want some of hers.

Don't worry about getting a "green light" from her, you're the man in the interaction, if you want to touch her you can. You will never get a shit test from a quick, light touch while talking.
(This post was last modified: 09-14-2014 10:27 PM by Gorgiass.)
09-14-2014 10:25 PM
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Post: #202
RE: Why Hasn't Game Worked?
(09-12-2014 09:31 AM)thegreenman Wrote:  So I'd like to hear your thoughts.

hey greenman!

Don't give up. Just keep going! You are still young, you can still make major transformations in your life.

I understand that you have an issue with touching girls.

I recommend "Soft Stroking". This means to gently caress and rub a woman in a playful yet seductive way. I usually start with her hands, shoulders, or knee area.

Here is a specific example:

(08-31-2014 06:20 AM)Giovonny Wrote:  We smoked some more and listened to some music. We were sitting right next to each other on my couch, our knees occasionally touching.

I started my escalation by touching her hands, rubbing them and caressing them, she responded well by turning her hands over and opening them up.

I started to rub her wrists, forearms, upper arms and shoulders taking my time before moving higher. I caressed her collarbone and neckline, rubbed her back and ran my hand across the back of her neck...

Finally, I put my nose on her ear and my face next to hers.. I ran my lips over her neck and hair line..

We start making out, I rub her ass, I lightly spank her ass..

Full story here

(09-12-2014 09:31 AM)thegreenman Wrote:  just plop my hand down on her shoulder, and just leave it there?

No, don't just leave your hand there.

Caress her shoulder. Make love to her shoulder, using your hand.

(09-12-2014 09:31 AM)thegreenman Wrote:  What if she's standing across from me - do I just extend my arm out there, and leave it on her, like a bridge across the gulf?

No.

Don't make an effort to extend your arms and reach out to her.

Just touch her when she is close to you.

(09-12-2014 09:31 AM)thegreenman Wrote:  Do I touch the side of her nearest to me, or do I reach across to her opposite shoulder?

Both.

(09-12-2014 09:31 AM)thegreenman Wrote:  Or am I supposed to hold her hand for a little bit first?

Don't hold hands until after you have made out with her, generally speaking.

(09-12-2014 09:31 AM)thegreenman Wrote:  Do I continue talking while I'm doing it

Yes.

(09-12-2014 09:31 AM)thegreenman Wrote:  Do I lock eyes while I'm doing it?

Not necessarily.

A little eye contact is fine but don't feel like you have to hold it for too long or be too intense about it.

(09-12-2014 09:31 AM)thegreenman Wrote:  At first it was our knees, then our shoulders.

This is a perfect way to start! Subtle, "serendipitous" touching!

(09-12-2014 09:31 AM)thegreenman Wrote:  "How many girlfriends have you had?"

If lying is a problem for you. Try honesty. Just say -- "I've never had a girlfriend", "I don't fit in well to the American social climate", etc.

(09-12-2014 09:31 AM)thegreenman Wrote:  this touching issue. I'm pretty sure it's the #1 roadblock separating me from a satisfying existence in this life.

There are professional "touch therapists" who can help you with this.

Or, you can try to find a patient girl who is willing to work through this
with you.

(09-12-2014 09:31 AM)thegreenman Wrote:  They might play less head games.

Based on what you wrote, I didn't see her playing any "head games".

(09-12-2014 09:31 AM)thegreenman Wrote:  It turned from "gentle girl making conversation" to "combative tom-boyish girl trying to cocky-funny me, tease me, and bust my balls."

Seems to me like she was flirting with you.

I suspect that this girl was available to you romantically. Maybe, your lack of experience and "closing" skill turned her off?

---

You need sexual experience.

Have you considered professional sex workers?
(This post was last modified: 09-18-2014 03:29 PM by Giovonny.)
09-18-2014 03:27 PM
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Wahawahwah Offline
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Post: #203
RE: Why Hasn't Game Worked?
Dude, if youre back in the baltimore-DC area any time in the next two years, hit me up!


Good luck with China.
Keep us posted.

09-18-2014 04:14 PM
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Post: #204
RE: Why Hasn't Game Worked?
Sounds like OP has inner game issues (self confidence) but seems more at ease and happier in China than in the US.

While I wish OP would stay in the US and game here, I'm happy because op is happy.

Don't think about it as "approaching girls".....think about it as going out and having a walk around town.

If you need a ear, PM me and we can skype.

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Game is the difference between a broke average looking dude in a 2nd tier city turning bad bitch feminists into maids and fucktoys and a well to do lawyer with 50x the dough taking 3 dates to bang broads in philly.
09-18-2014 04:36 PM
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Post: #205
RE: Why Hasn't Game Worked?
I’d like to explain, in a bit more depth, what goes on in my mind/body when I’m considering escalating physically with a girl.

The problem is NOT that I’m “afraid” to touch girls. I’m not really “afraid” of anything, at this point in my quest. I’ve made it a point, for the last 11 years, to systematically hunt down fears, and conquer them by diving head-first into them. My philosophy is that whenever there’s a problem in life, it can usually be traced back to a fear, and that by doing the thing I’m afraid of, there will be a “net decrease in fear”, which will raise the tide, and with a rising tide, all boats are lifted. Make sense?

The problem has to do with the fact that “getting over the fear” and “being sexual” come from two different parts of the brain. Since I’m not super well-versed in neuroanatomy, please forgive me if I’m incorrectly identifying the structures at work, but for simplicity’s sake, let’s boil it down to two parts: the cerebrum, and the hypothalamus.

The cerebrum is the logical part, and the part that has to do with one’s sense of self – one’s personal identity. This is the part of us that’s afraid of rejection and what others will think about us, and which seeks to preserve our ideal image of who we are as a person.

And then there’s the hypothalamus, which deals in subconscious drives, including sexuality. The sex drive is a series of urges that are directly connected to the musculature, and when people have sex, this is the part that’s directing it.

Again, I’m sure I’m grossly oversimplifying here. Sorry. But the point is to the get the idea across, which is this:

When I approach a fear to conquer it, my cerebrum takes over, and my hypothalamus retreats. It just shuts off. I don’t know how to keep it on – all I know how to do is DO WHAT I’M AFRAID OF. And I can do that – but the inevitable side-effect is that my sex drive turns itself off.

As an example of how this works, suppose I’m sitting in a bar, watching some hotties dance. As I’m sitting there, I feel my sexuality stirring. I feel an extremely intense desire to get closer to them, to make contact with them, to feel their body-heat, to pull them in close to me, to get their hot sexiness all over me, to merge with them, to feel their body all over my body, to exchange everything that’s possible to exchange. It’s a tangible pull, as if there’s a rope around me, pulling me towards them. In my lower abdomen, I feel the most exquisite yearnings for them. I feel the emotional promise of how instantaneously heavenly I’d feel if I could only get close to them and feel their bodies. It’s almost mystical, the intensity of it sometimes.

And then I get up to approach them. And as I start walking towards them, all of that feeling starts going away. By the time I get up to them, it’s probably 50% of what it was while I was sitting. After I open my mouth, it’s down to 30%. After we’ve exchanged a few words, it’s down to 20%. After a minute or so, I barely feel anything at all. That whole hypothalamus-driven world is gone like a puff of smoke. All I’m left with is my cerebrum, conjuring up things to say based on game theory that I learned on the internet.

So what happens at this point is my actual SEX DRIVE is no longer driving me (because it’s shut off), and I’m being guided by my CEREBRAL MEMORY of the appropriate thing to say/do in the situation.
My hypothalamus isn’t urging me toward escalation anymore. My cerebrum is all that’s active, and it’s IMITATING the hypothalamus. It’s trying its best to IMITATE, from MEMORY, the body language, voice tone, facial expressions, and physical touching, etc, of the sex drive of the hypothalamus.
And after 11 years of learning and practicing game, my cerebrum has gotten VERY GOOD at this imitation. I’ve had 11 years to practice all the body language and all the routines.

But one of two things happens:

A) It comes across as slightly “off”, in the most subtle, barely perceptible of ways. A dating coach, watching me from the sidelines, would think it’s all perfect, that I’m kicking ass, that I’m saying the right things, that I’ve got the right body language, and everything’s good. But to the girl, close up, something just seems a little… “stilted” about it. Maybe she doesn’t think to herself anything as dramatic as “what a weirdo” or “this guy is hiding something” – instead, she probably thinks I’m a cool guys who she finds interesting and fun. But she doesn’t FEEL it… she doesn’t feel SEXUAL attraction. Maybe she likes me as a person, but the SEXUAL MACHINERY doesn’t get activated, because, at the end of the day, it’s not MY OWN sexual machinery, that’s doing all this – it’s my cerebrum. The hypothalamus has to connect with the hypothalamus, and only with the hypothalamus.

B) If I’m really, really, really “on” that night, if I’m at my BEST game, I can make the imitation so good that it actually does work for a while. I start getting IOI’s, including physical touch from the girl. My memory of “correct sexual body language” is so good, that my cerebrum is successfully fooling the girl’s hypothalamus into thinking that my behavior is actually coming from my own hypothalamus. For a while. But as time goes on, I start to get TIRED. I get tired because, in computer language, I’m performing computations on a program that’s not meant for them. I’m trying to compute sexuality in a part of my brain that isn’t meant for it, and so the “algorithms” are far longer and more comlex than they need to be, and they take up like 20 times more electricity. This is because the hypothalamus is the brain structure designed to process sexuality, and it does so efficiently – but the cerebrum is not designed for that at all, so it uses way too many energy bits to perform even the simplest sexual action.
So after maybe 20-30 minutes or so, I start getting EXTREMELY TIRED. I’m talking massive, continuous yawning. I’m talking about zoning out and becoming increasingly unaware (or apathetic) about my surroundings. I’m talking about my eyelids closing on their own, and all I can think about is finding a comfortable chair to doze off and go to sleep. So imagine you’re the girl, and this guy who you were getting along quite well with, and there was even a little spark of sexual chemistry with, is now yawning in your face, closing his eyes, and not paying attention to you. Yea.

So eventually things just fizzle out, and the girl gets back to her friends or whatever she was doing, and I go back to sit down again. After a minute or two of shutting my eyes and zoning out, my energy level starts to come back up again. In 5 minutes, I’m starting to feel horny again. My hypothalamus comes back online. I’m staring at the dancing girls again, feeling those feelings of exquisite desire, feeling pulled toward them like a rope, wanting to get on them and rub them and change saliva with them. It starts again! And of course, as soon as I start to go and interact with them, it shuts off again. Then I sit down my myself, stare at them some more, and it turns back on. Repeat ad infinitum.

Now I know what you’re probably thinking: Greenman, why do you shut your hypothalamus off?

It’s not like it’s a choice. It just happens.

There is one thing that I know I can control in these situations: my outward physical actions.

If I’m afraid to talk to a girl, I know that I have the ABSOLUTE, FREE-WILL CHOICE to go and talk to her.
If I’m afraid to ask a girl if she’s single, I know that I have the absolute free-will choice to ask her that.
If I’m afraid to use the Tyler Durden “tickle opener”, where I run up to a girl I’ve never spoken a word to and just start tickling her, I know that I have the absolute free-will choice to do that (and I did do it… once… in a club, just to prove to myself and my wingmen that I could).

If I’m afraid to touch a girl, I know that I have the absolute free-will choice to touch her.

But I DON’T have the same free-will choice in deciding what brain regions are active while I’m doing it.
That part isn’t under my control. As soon as I start interacting socially, my hypothalamus just shuts down. My sex drive shuts down. I can imitate the behavior that it would have impelled, but only to a limited extent, for a limited amount of time. I don’t know how to make it stay on while I overcome a fear.

I know how to overcome a fear – but I don’t know how to make my sex drive stay on WHILE I’m overcoming it.

I’ve overcome such a long train of social fears in my 11 years in the game, that it took a wall of text just to list one tenth of them. We pride ourselves in our willingness to confront our fears for the betterment of our lives. That’s what being a man is all about, right?

Well I don’t see this situation as having anything to do with fear anymore. It’s a FUCKING COMPUTER GLITCH.

Some ways I’ve tried to get around it are by approaching and talking to the girl for a while (with no sex-drive), and then inviting her to “meditate” with me. In some places, especially hippie-type areas, girls are down for this, and they’ll meditate with me. This has mixed results – my hypothalamus comes back online a liiiiiittle bit. I feel a little bit of sexuality. But as soon as we open our eyes and start talking again, it shuts off once again.

The only way that I can think of, to really, truly get around this, is to have a situation where a girl HAS TO be with me, where she’s compelled, by some sort of contractual agreement, to stay with me – and I don’t mean to just stay in a relationship with me, but to stay physically in proximity with me, for several hours at a time – long enough for me to actually go to sleep (from that tired cerebrum) and wake up next to her, still lying there. In the transition from sleep to wakefulness, in between those two states, is a transitional zone where you’re sort of awake and sort of asleep, and (I theorize that) in that zone, I’ll be able to reach over and start touching her, half realizing what I’m doing and half not, and that my hypothalamus, which was active during sleep, while remain on for long enough for me to start getting some sexual gratification from touching her and being touched by her, and then we’ll be able to get into some sort of makeout (and/or sex) from that.

Maybe that’s why in the old days (the 90’s), they used to call it “sleeping with” someone. Maybe that’s how everybody did it? Maybe there’s more to that phrase than we think?

I don’t know for certain whether that’ll work or not, since I’ve never tried it. And I don’t even know how I would GET a girl to let me try it… How do you get a girl to agree to something that seemingly bizarre? Even a prostitute, I imagine, would probably be like “wtf is wrong with this guy?”
I'd be like "hey Ms. Hooker, I'm a virgin who's got issues about sex and I need your help getting comfortable with sexuality."
And her reply would be "Ok, so then fuck me."
And I'd be like "well yea, but it's a little more complicated than that. I need you to like, just SIT there, and don't do anything, and let me fall asleep in your arms, and then, at some unidentified point in time, perhaps an hour later, perhaps 5 hours later, I'm going to start touching you."
I can see that going over REAL well...

Well that’s all I wanted to say for now. Glad I got that off my chest. First time I've ever explained it like that. Your thoughts?
09-19-2014 01:04 AM
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Rutting Elephant Offline
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Post: #206
RE: Why Hasn't Game Worked?
How big a role, if any, does alcohol play in your night game? Not for the girls but for you.
I've read the whole thread and haven't noticed the subject arise. (Might have missed it.)
It's called liquid courage for a reason, and might help you forget about brain anatomy and game checklists enough to get on with it.
09-19-2014 05:03 AM
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Wayout Offline
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Post: #207
RE: Why Hasn't Game Worked?
OP...Your story makes huge sense to me now. You are 5'2" - you should have mentioned that in the first sentence of your first post! It's hard...Plus you can't ( yet) escalate sexually...You basically lacking two out of three major elements in so called Game . You approach and that's the third element that you go down pretty well. So not all is lost. I am also short and take this advice from me : Girls stop caring about your height once you had sex with them! I dated girls who were over 6 feet tall...and initially they were laughing at me even for suggesting we go on a date!
You can't grow up...so concentrate on your sexual touching. If I was in China and especially in yoga environment - I would bring up acupuncture,acupressure,massage...Ask the girl to massage your shoulders or whatever you need massaging and them you reciprocate of course! Acroyoga...have you tried it? Have they tried it? Look it up and maybe you can show it to a couple of girls ..
That crazy girl you described has too much bagage already with her mental issues and her long distance bf...plus she is a cheater. Don't talk to her!
My prediction: you are going to wife up with the first semi hot and nice girl who will sleep with you!
09-19-2014 06:43 AM
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Post: #208
RE: Why Hasn't Game Worked?
(09-19-2014 05:03 AM)Rutting Elephant Wrote:  How big a role, if any, does alcohol play in your night game? Not for the girls but for you.
I've read the whole thread and haven't noticed the subject arise. (Might have missed it.)
It's called liquid courage for a reason, and might help you forget about brain anatomy and game checklists enough to get on with it.

I don't drink alcohol. I dislike everything about it. The taste. The way people obsess over it. The stupid way people act when they're on it. Plus, when I do drink it, it makes me sleepy and antisocial. I just sit there and fall asleep. It doesn't give me courage at all - it just confuses and disorients me. I'll walk up to a girl (something I can already do with ease), and just stare blankly, like durrrrr......

But I'm not stranger to mind altering substances. I smoke a healthy dose of weed, and I've done shrooms and ayahuasca, so it's not like I'm a prude or anything.
(This post was last modified: 09-19-2014 07:05 AM by thegreenman.)
09-19-2014 07:02 AM
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Post: #209
RE: Why Hasn't Game Worked?
(09-19-2014 06:43 AM)Wayout Wrote:  OP...Your story makes huge sense to me now. You are 5'2" - you should have mentioned that in the first sentence of your first post! It's hard...Plus you can't ( yet) escalate sexually...You basically lacking two out of three major elements in so called Game . You approach and that's the third element that you go down pretty well. So not all is lost. I am also short and take this advice from me : Girls stop caring about your height once you had sex with them! I dated girls who were over 6 feet tall...and initially they were laughing at me even for suggesting we go on a date!
You can't grow up...so concentrate on your sexual touching. If I was in China and especially in yoga environment - I would bring up acupuncture,acupressure,massage...Ask the girl to massage your shoulders or whatever you need massaging and them you reciprocate of course! Acroyoga...have you tried it? Have they tried it? Look it up and maybe you can show it to a couple of girls ..
That crazy girl you described has too much bagage already with her mental issues and her long distance bf...plus she is a cheater. Don't talk to her!
My prediction: you are going to wife up with the first semi hot and nice girl who will sleep with you!

Yea I'm 5'2", and I've also got some pretty advanced balding. So not only do I have no hair, but they can see it up close since my head is lower than their eye level!

As far as touching the yoga girls... I'm learning that Chinese chicks are very conservative about anything even remotely sexual. They don't even HUG. Even after knowing eachother for a week, and then parting ways, they'll only shake hands. One of them (a co-worker at the english school) even told me straight up: Chinese girls don't hug. Only if you're family, or a boyfriend. If you're not one of those two, then don't try to hug someone. I did actually manage to hug a couple of girls as they were leaving the yoga center to go home to their provinces. But they were extremely awkward about it, and just kind of froze. Dodgy

(and it wasn't for lack of liking me - we had plenty of laughs together, and they were always giving me that "wow, you're a white guy, you're so cooo!! I can't believe I'm actually getting the chance to talk to you!" look). They liked me, they just have massive hangups about touching or getting sexual. (like me! lol)

And the karate-chopping chick went home. There are only a handful of us now. There's one girl who seems super-nice, a very "good girl" type, who brings me blankets when I look cold, and things like that. I downloaded chinese subtitles for one of my favorite movies, and I'm gonna invite her to watch it with me on sunday or monday when I get back there.
09-19-2014 07:18 AM
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Post: #210
RE: Why Hasn't Game Worked?
(09-18-2014 03:27 PM)Giovonny Wrote:  
(09-12-2014 09:31 AM)thegreenman Wrote:  So I'd like to hear your thoughts.

You need sexual experience.

Have you considered professional sex workers?


I went to a brothel in Costa Rica (didnt include it in my wall-o'text), where I had coitus with an extremely hot girl, but I barely felt anything. Thee was almost no pleasure whatsoever. It was just the faintest tickle of pleasure - I regularly experience more when I masturbate to porn. The reason was either because I didnt have time to relax (the whole thing was purchased as a 1-hour block), or because deep down I need more of an emotional connection. Or maybe i just have a lot of leftover religious anti-sex guilt programming. Whichever it is, it points to the obvious conclusion that I need more time with a girl before i fuck her.

After that, i went back to the same brothel, fucked a different girl, and that time i didnt even climax. I barely even got hard. I couldnt help but wonder if i might have been gay. (That night's porn session quickly dispelled that theory)

In the Philippines i had an entire night, and I met the girl at a gogo bar where we got to know eachother for a couple hours before heading back to my room. I got more pleasure from that one, but it was still disappointing. I had an ego boost, i felt a little bit more "cool", but it did very little to address my deeper issues around sexuality. It gave me a boost of confidence for a few days, but i didnt feel any closer to breaking the psychological blocks that stop me from being able to access my animal mating instinct. In short, i dont think it helped.

I didnt actually pay for that girl - her friend decided to fuck my hostel-roommate, and he brought his girl back, so it was "logical" in chick logic for the friend (my girl) come along too, and fuck me while her friend was fucking my roomate.

But the second time, a few weeks later ( with a different girl), i did pay - and i felt awful afterwards. I got the feeling she was new to the scene, and i may have been the first guy to buy her. (Gogo bars in the philippines have a bunch of girls dancing, and not all of them have actually gone home with a guy yet. And when you pay, you pay the establishment, and you take the girl home with you, and the establishment later pays the girl). So i got the impression she was unsure about whether she wanted to do it, and probably went along just because she "thats what youre supposed to do." Even though i treated her as sensitively as i could, i still feel ashamed when i think about it, a year and a half later.

When I was in Montreal, I bought quite a lot of full-contact lap-dances, the kind where you get to feel the girl up anywhere (except her pussy). One strip bar I became a regular at, for a few weeks, and the girls recognized me when I came in. After doing that a bunch of times, I can't say I felt any more confident about touching (non-working) girls. I knew they were only letting me do it cause I paid them. I don't think it helped (although it did feel pretty good - but not that good, because when all you have is 3 minutes, how the fuck are you supposed to relax with that?)

And that's the extent of my "pay for play" experience.
09-19-2014 07:35 AM
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Post: #211
RE: Why Hasn't Game Worked?
Shit you are short and balding. Hat off to you bro for being so persistent in the game.

At least you tried pay for play, I thought that would have helped you with escalation?

Ok the one thing I could think of now that can actually be worth a shot: start learning a hobby and becomes either very good or professional at it. Think yoga, martial art, music, dancing, chef and opens cooking class, teaching english etc.

One of my close buddies is 5"3 with only half a head of hair, but thankfully he got great style and an yoga instructor. He s got good game but he pulls a lot less than he should had he been taller.

Another important thing you must fix is your confidence. You overthink and analyze too much man. I know because I had been there. At some point you need to learn not to give a fuck and just enjoy life without overthinking.

Its tough when we are short. Im a cocky motherfucker but if some sour fuckers try to crack on me for my height I would still feel a bit rage inside, though I ll return the favor. Men will still tend to bully and look down on you for being short, so get in the gym and get ripped. You need to be visibly ripped to gain back a bit of respect from people, and also learn to dress very well.

Dancing is great both to increase your sexual confidence and your style and self-image.

Capitalize on your teaching english job and screen out girls who are sluts. They exist, even in China (Im from Vietnam), you just need to look out for the signs and game accordingly.

Best of luck!

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09-19-2014 09:28 AM
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Post: #212
RE: Why Hasn't Game Worked?
(09-19-2014 07:02 AM)thegreenman Wrote:  I smoke a healthy dose of weed, and I've done shrooms and ayahuasca, so it's not like I'm a prude or anything.

Very funny. The entire thread is based on your bemoaning your own prudishness.
You do what while hanging out "in a bar, watching some hotties dance"?
09-19-2014 10:29 AM
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Wayout Offline
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Post: #213
You need a team!


09-19-2014 03:51 PM
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Gorgiass Offline
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Post: #214
RE: Why Hasn't Game Worked?
(09-19-2014 07:02 AM)thegreenman Wrote:  I don't drink alcohol. I dislike everything about it. The taste. The way people obsess over it. The stupid way people act when they're on it. Plus, when I do drink it, it makes me sleepy and antisocial. I just sit there and fall asleep. It doesn't give me courage at all - it just confuses and disorients me. I'll walk up to a girl (something I can already do with ease), and just stare blankly, like durrrrr......

Order up some phenibut as reviewed elsewhere on here. All the hangup-eliminating effects of alcohol with minimal disorientation. Sure it's a crutch but you can ditch it when you're able to escalate on a girl without feeling awkward.
09-19-2014 08:38 PM
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L M McCoy Offline
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Post: #215
RE: Why Hasn't Game Worked?
If you ever come back to America go after these Hispanic lizards bro, they are so easy I'm beginning to think they're just yearning to get down on their knees and introduce their mouth to some cock.

There is absolutely no shortage of these women either. So, one can get the needed experience while also getting pleasure. Two birds one stone?

I can see why you'd go to China, like you previously stated about the height of the women and of course the fact that you're an American. I haven't read everything in this thread so I'm hoping none of this is monotonous from what other members have written.

Also, not everyone is born with yellow fever! A good portion of mankind just somehow contracted it! Big Grin

If you happen to unravel the mystery of yellow fever and if you come to know of its origins, please...Do tell!
(This post was last modified: 09-20-2014 12:15 AM by L M McCoy.)
09-20-2014 12:07 AM
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Borealis Offline
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Post: #216
RE: Why Hasn't Game Worked?
(09-19-2014 07:35 AM)thegreenman Wrote:  
(09-18-2014 03:27 PM)Giovonny Wrote:  
(09-12-2014 09:31 AM)thegreenman Wrote:  So I'd like to hear your thoughts.

You need sexual experience.

Have you considered professional sex workers?


I went to a brothel in Costa Rica (didnt include it in my wall-o'text), where I had coitus with an extremely hot girl, but I barely felt anything. Thee was almost no pleasure whatsoever. It was just the faintest tickle of pleasure - I regularly experience more when I masturbate to porn. The reason was either because I didnt have time to relax (the whole thing was purchased as a 1-hour block), or because deep down I need more of an emotional connection. Or maybe i just have a lot of leftover religious anti-sex guilt programming. Whichever it is, it points to the obvious conclusion that I need more time with a girl before i fuck her.

After that, i went back to the same brothel, fucked a different girl, and that time i didnt even climax. I barely even got hard. I couldnt help but wonder if i might have been gay. (That night's porn session quickly dispelled that theory)

In the Philippines i had an entire night, and I met the girl at a gogo bar where we got to know eachother for a couple hours before heading back to my room. I got more pleasure from that one, but it was still disappointing. I had an ego boost, i felt a little bit more "cool", but it did very little to address my deeper issues around sexuality. It gave me a boost of confidence for a few days, but i didnt feel any closer to breaking the psychological blocks that stop me from being able to access my animal mating instinct. In short, i dont think it helped.

I didnt actually pay for that girl - her friend decided to fuck my hostel-roommate, and he brought his girl back, so it was "logical" in chick logic for the friend (my girl) come along too, and fuck me while her friend was fucking my roomate.

But the second time, a few weeks later ( with a different girl), i did pay - and i felt awful afterwards. I got the feeling she was new to the scene, and i may have been the first guy to buy her. (Gogo bars in the philippines have a bunch of girls dancing, and not all of them have actually gone home with a guy yet. And when you pay, you pay the establishment, and you take the girl home with you, and the establishment later pays the girl). So i got the impression she was unsure about whether she wanted to do it, and probably went along just because she "thats what youre supposed to do." Even though i treated her as sensitively as i could, i still feel ashamed when i think about it, a year and a half later.

When I was in Montreal, I bought quite a lot of full-contact lap-dances, the kind where you get to feel the girl up anywhere (except her pussy). One strip bar I became a regular at, for a few weeks, and the girls recognized me when I came in. After doing that a bunch of times, I can't say I felt any more confident about touching (non-working) girls. I knew they were only letting me do it cause I paid them. I don't think it helped (although it did feel pretty good - but not that good, because when all you have is 3 minutes, how the fuck are you supposed to relax with that?)

And that's the extent of my "pay for play" experience.

Sounds like you might have porn induced ED.

http://yourbrainonporn.com/porn-induced-ed-start-here
09-20-2014 05:58 AM
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Wayout Offline
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Post: #217
RE: Why Hasn't Game Worked?
I think most would agree,OP has deep psychological issues around sex,women..etc. Accept it for what it is and get professional help! There are sex therapist .Some will even have real sex with you as a part of the therapy.
Your look, 5'2" and bald isn't the death sentence either. Look up Neil Straus and how he changed his appearance. You need a make over!
You got the the two most important elements to succeed: you can approach and you are intelligent! After some cognitive behavior therapy and adjusting your image you'll be fierce!
09-22-2014 09:40 AM
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Post: #218
RE: Why Hasn't Game Worked?
Have you gotten your testosterone levels checked OP?

An issue that may or may not have been addressed in these posts is vibe and how much fun OP is having.

I was too serious in my approaches and saw that I wasn't enjoying the approach; and I think it was Gio who said "if you're not having fun, they're not having fun." I took this advice a lot more than lightly and is part of my game till the day I die.

So the logical aspects of game aside OP, are you enjoying yourself?

I mean there are times where chicks induce that boner in me and I enjoy talking to them and flirting with them.

For me it's a key aspect of game that as of now makes or breaks my approaches.

It may be psychological (fear) or testosterone related (boner).

Just another perspective to maybe address.

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09-22-2014 06:03 PM
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Days of Broken Arrows Offline
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Post: #219
RE: Why Hasn't Game Worked?
Let me try to break this down:

1). Height. As a teenager, I found people (guys, in particular) giving me shit about my lack of height was worse than actually dealing with women. How much negative feedback did you get growing up, esp. from family? This might be the problem. I had this problem and looking back, people's big mouths fucked up my game more than my height since it made me negative and this is a sure game-killer. Learn to ignore or learn to fight.

FWIW, I had height issues and a chronic illness and got laid a lot as a teen. If women like you, they like you. I know a kid whose babymama works at Food Lion. He's 5'3" and she's 5'9" -- she's very hot, he knocked her up at 18, and they're together a year later. He's also dumb as wood (i.e. spells people as "peaple"). But he's fun. Remember that last part.

2). Prostitutes: You said "I'd be like "hey Ms. Hooker, I'm a virgin who's got issues about sex and I need your help getting comfortable with sexuality." And her reply would be "Ok, so then fuck me." And I'd be like "well yea, but it's a little more complicated than that. I need you to like, just SIT there, and don't do anything, and let me fall asleep in your arms, and then, at some unidentified point in time, perhaps an hour later, perhaps 5 hours later, I'm going to start touching you." I can see that going over REAL well..."

If you have money you can make prostitutes bark like seals. If this is what you need, put an ad on Craigslist in "Seeking Arrangement," explain it and you'll get a "half-prostitute" (a woman who has sex for money on the side) to agree, I bet. Just make sure you don't get snagged by cops. I know an older woman who'd probably do this for you, but she's in Arizona.

3). Physical escalation: Your brain shutting down your feelings when you game is a form of dealing with anxiety. When a ball player goes up to bat, he needs to shut down to concentrate on the matter at hand. That's what's happening with you. It usually goes away once you're out of that batter's box.

4). Feeling "off:" I feel this too. A lot. One way to circumvent it, as others have mentioned, is alcohol. If you have pain pills, those work too -- although do not take these if your family has a history of addiction. I know little about the drug Ecstasy but it sounds like this might help.

5). Changing yourself: Human have the capacity to change. But as I mentioned earlier, you have to do, not say. Any experience with a woman, from making out to spending a nite with a hooker, will benefit you at this point. I still urge the second one of these so long as you don't get arrested.

6). Baldness: Wear a baseball cap backwards and grow a goatee. Or come up with an alternate look, like bikers do.

7). More About Height: I can't remember if you said you were Jewish, but I've found Jewish women are usually cool about shorter guys. Might want to head in this direction. It was a total shock to me at college (which I started at 5'0") to suddenly get swarmed with attention from the Jewish-female contingent when that wasn't the case at my redneck-ish high school.

You live up near the Pikesville/Baltimore area, right? If you're Jewish, attend services -- esp. around the high holidays. Jewish women also sometimes take to neurotics, so your awkwardness and overthinking might work for you. My ex was Jewish, and put up with a lot of my eccentricities.
(This post was last modified: 09-23-2014 02:47 PM by Days of Broken Arrows.)
09-23-2014 02:44 PM
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Tigre Offline
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Post: #220
RE: Why Hasn't Game Worked?
If you were my friend living in the same city and I was trying to get you laid. My first thought is I'd insist you push through the mental barrier you have with booze and get you to start liking it.

Refusing alcohol makes you seem like an overgrown adolescent who's clinging to that phase of life and not ready for the next phase.

If you said you didn't like the taste, I'd call bullshit and buy you a couple of Bacardi Breezers or something similar. Even if it's considered a girl's or teenager's drink, I'd start you off on that and you can gradually acquire a taste for other drinks.
09-23-2014 03:40 PM
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Post: #221
RE: Why Hasn't Game Worked?
Gonna respond to folks individually, here goes:


Wayout:
You guys are my team! Smile


L M McCoy:
I know there are lots of Hispanic women, including in Baltimore, but I never had any greater amount of success with them than with anyone else.
And I don’t have yellow fever. I’m just here because China is A) not run by feminists and B) offered me employment.


Borealis:
Thanks for that website, I’ve now had a chance to read some of the articles, and I think PIED might be part of the problem. I look at porn for several hours a day on average, and I’ve been using it since I was 13 or 14. I definitely have the qualities of what they call a “long rebooter”. The thing is, I know porn is bad (I may not have known quite how bad until YBOP, but I always knew it was bad), and I’ve been trying to stop for years now, but I don’t know what to do when I get lonely, and I start having existential panic, the type that comes from a years-long buildup of isolation and alienation from the human race (minus cold approaches), and porn is the only thing (available) that eases that feeling. It still comes back to finding a chick – as the guys on YBOP openly admit, having a girlfriend is 9 times out of 10 the factor that makes or breaks a rebooting attempt. So right back to square one.


Wayout:
I tried a sex therapist back in ’08 or ’09. The cost was prohibitive, and the therapist wasn’t that attractive to me, so I took a few sessions and then called it quits. We didn’t get to actual sex, since the first half-dozen sessions were supposed to be fully clothed and not overtly sexual. She had the right idea, getting me comfortable with touch, relaxing in the presence of a woman. I probably would have continued were it not for the cost – these therapists are at LEAST $100 an hour (mine was almost $200), and I can’t even come close to affording that.

I also know I need style makeover. I’ve been sitting on this piece of knowledge for years and years, wondering what to do with it. Where do I go to get a makeover? Who do I call? How do I know I’m getting good advice? How do I know they aren’t gonna make me attractive to the wrong demographic (i.e. gay men), rather than chicks? Do you have any suggestions?



Cobra:
I’ve never had my testosterone levels checked.
And no, I don’t have any fun when I go out. You hit a major nail on the head there. I don’t have any fun in ANYthing I do. I’ve lost the ability to have fun – I don’t think my neural receptors for fun are even there anymore. Well, ok, maybe that’s not true: in the rare event that I get a little bit of affection from girl (which happens about once every six months), I start to have fun – just often enough to show me that my brain still has the chemical capacity for fun.

I can hear the advice coming: OP, you just need to live for YOU, not for women, go live a life that YOU enjoy! Do things that make YOU happy! Forget about women for a while – who needs ‘em! You shouldn’t need a woman to be happy. Screw ‘em! Go find cool stuff to do, and start living a cool life. If you live a cool life, women will come to you.

Thing is, I’ve already been there. I’ve tried that – forgetting about women and trying to develop hobbies and stuff. But it’s so past the point where that’s a viable solution anymore. I’m standing there playing volleyball, thinking, “when am I gonna get female contact?” I’m out hiking, thinking “this sure is a beautiful forest, but… what about titties?” Or “gosh that’s an awesome 3000 year old temple, but goddammit, when am I gonna get to be with a fucking chick? Why does the world suck so fucking bad?”

That ‘having fun’ ship saaaaaailed. A long time go.

I'm at an impasse. My emotional center just refuses to enjoy ANYTHING until I have a chick in my arms. There’s no negotiations, no compromise. It’s chick or nothing. This is the condition that my limbic self is in. Consciously, I can tell myself “having fun is the WAY TO get chicks” all I want, but limbically, every moment of existence is an excruciating ordeal, and the only thing that ameliorates and reverses that is feminine contact.

I don't want to beat a dead horse, but imagine if you’ve been working all your life, working hard - but never received a paycheck. Every employer you work for promises you pay – they keep promising, saying “next week”, week after week. Eventually, you realize he’s never going to pay you, so you quit and move on to the next job. There it starts all over again. In 12 years of honest, hard, sweaty work, you’ve never once been paid. How much longer are you gonna keep holding faith that work=pay? I’m in that situation, and it’s come to the point where my body, my soul, just refuses to work anymore. I’m finding it increasingly hard to even go out and do approaches anymore, because I’m just thinking, “yea, I’m hardworking, I’m courageous, I’m a real man – but none of it counts for shit anyway. What’s the point?” So instead of working, I feel like I oughta just protest for some goddamn pay. I feel like just sitting out in front of “women headquarters” with a sign that says “What do I want? PAY! When do I want it? NOW!”

I get that this is a losing attitude. I get that I’m setting myself up for failure by thinking this way. I’m trying my best to stay positive, to stay success-minded. Overall, the balance is still slightly in favor – my ship is still floating above water, barely. I can still put in the work, and I still am – I’m still talking to girls, still holding faith that this will one-day pay off. Otherwise, I would have joined PUAhate by now. I still know, deep down inside, that there IS a way, and that I CAN be successful.

The point is, I can put in the effort, and do what I believe I need to do. But ‘having fun’ while doing it… that’s just out of the question at this point.

Sorry if I sound negative, I am kinda venting. Venting is second priority – the first priority is finding a way through the mess, to success. I left the comfort of familiarity, and moved 12000 miles away to a communist country with strange food so that I’d have a greater sexual market value. I’m still here, still employed, still lots of nice, physically-fit, feminine girls to approach and make grunting noises to while pantomiming. Keep the advice comin’, it’s greatly appreciated!

..

..


Days of Broken Arrows:

1) I experienced moderate teasing for my height. It wasn’t constant – it happened infrequently, but when it did, it always seemed to happen at the worst time, in the most crucial situations, from the people (friends) who I last expected to hear it from.

My family, however, shot down my self-esteem not about height, but about different things. Especially sex (no surprise there, eh?) My dad had a massive porn collection (every issue of Playboy since 1972), and would sometimes call me over to look at a picture of a model, and then say “you like that? Hahaha, I’ll bet you wouldn’t even know what to do with it!” He’d say things like that pretty frequently. “You like them knockers? Woooo boy, she wouldn’t even give you the time of day!” Sometimes he would say this stuff in front of my friends. And then there was my mom – the most irrational, emotionally frustrated, hardcore-propagandized feminist ballbusting bitch you could imagine. She would spend 30+ minutes to an hour screaming at me, the harshest, loudest, shrillest, chalkboard-type screeching possible, with teeth bared, with her face an inch from my face, so close I could see the bloodvessels bulging in her eyes which were beaming out pure, intense, unmitigated hatred – all because I forgot to do homework, or because one of my friends tracked some mud into the house and temporarily soiled her perfect white carpet (although once I started studying psychology, I quickly realized that those trivial things were not REALLY what it was about). And if I attempted to defend myself or yell back, she would immediately turn around and storm off into her room, and shut the door, and refuse to have any communication with me for days at a time – until I apologized (for defending myself). This type of drama would occur once a week, at MINIMUM. Recently I’ve started to wonder if maybe she was using me as substitute ROMANTIC PARTNER (due to my emotionally-absentee dad watching tv all night and not bothering to bring any masculine presence into her life). She may have been using me as a substitute, as a romantic partner, and having “lovers-quarrels” with me – as if I were her cheating boyfriend or something. The more I think about it, the more accurate it seems, which would indeed make it an insidious form of sexual abuse. I also witnessed both of them doing this (shouting insanely for hours at a time) to my grandma when she was living with us, not knowing that I was witnessing elder abuse. She also did it to one of my friends, and HIS father, because he didn’t vote for me for president of the young democrats club. A lot of people have told me “oh you poor thing, they yelled at you – big deal. It’s not like they HIT you.” But the more insidious, the more difficult to recognize the abuse is, the more dangerous it is. When a father punches his kids in the face and beats their asses, the kid and everybody knows it’s abuse. There’s no doubt, no second-guessing, and there are many, many social organizations that can help the kid and give him therapy. No one ever tells him “what you experienced isn’t abuse. Grow up.” But when the abuse isn’t physical, it’s difficult to recognize for what it is, which makes it go even deeper into the psyche without being challenged.

It’s also worth mentioning that I never, ever, ever, ever ever saw my parents express any intimacy with eachother. I’ve never heard them having sex (despite them usually sleeping with their bedroom door open). I’ve never SEEN them exchange a loving touch, or anything to suggest that they were even a couple. Not even a GLANCE of suggestiveness. The most my dad will do is hug my mom awkwardly, like an actor playing a part, for 3 seconds, and then say “I’m sorry my love” in an imitation redneck accent. When I was in highschool, I did the obligatory parental-room-condom/oil/etc-search, where you search your parents’ bedroom for sex toys and the like – and it never turned up anything, not even a candle. Even when my parents watch TV, they usually do it in different rooms, so that my mom can watch her shows, and my dad can watch his. I’ve never witnessed them, or any of my relatives for that matter, engaging in even the briefest, lightest evidences of basic intimacy. And what’s even worse, is they think it’s a completely normal way to live, and they self-report that they’re a “happy couple” who “have difficulties but always manage to work things out.” They think it’s normal to live in the same house and never even touch eachother. I had no role models for what sexuality or intimacy looks like. My home (and most of my brainiac, superiority-complex-infested jewish community of Pikesville) was almost totally sterile. It was a perfect cocktail for the situation I’m now in. If you wanted to socially engineer a person with the least chance of ever having sex, you would have used my town and family.

I hope this doesn’t come across as whining. I’m just trying to be as candid as possible, to make those helping me better informed, as well as for a little bit of catharsis for myself.

2) No claigsrist here Smile, Plus, the concept of “sexual healing” that we’re talking about here is probably completely alien and unheard of to Chinese people, just like vegetarianism (don’t worry, it have no meat, just pork!).
I can see it now: “I’m a virgin and need a slow introduction to sexuality.” [Girl grabs dick and starts jerking it. “I rub slow. Here slow. You like?”

3) and 4) I have some experience with pain-killers, and they do make me more chill, and easier to have “fun”. I’ve also tried Ecstasy a few times, but one time was by myself in the forest, where it gave me a Buddha-like enlightenment experience, and the other times when I did it around people, it gave me a kind of panic attack and I had to go off into a room by myself, where I quickly felt better.
6) I’ve always wondered what kind of hat to wear. I don’t like ball-caps – they look so unoriginal, American-sheeple-like, and I don’t like baseball in the slightest. I feel like a poser whenever I wear one. Any other ideas?
7) I can’t stand jews, so I can’t imagine going to synagogue to pick up chicks. Jews invert logic and turn all truths about the world upside-down and inside-out. When I see a jewish girl, walking around in her little jewish bubble, oblivious to the entire world and all non-jewish-approved aspects of reality, I want to shake her and slap her, and go “wake the fuck up!!!”. (and it’s not racist for me to say that, since I was raised in a jewish household in a 70% jewish community, and did 10+ years of hebrew school – so my opinions come from experience, not ignorance!)


Tigre:
I’ll keep Bacardi Breezers in mind if I decide to start drinking. However, I really, really, really don’t like alcohol. There are very few things in this world that I’ve used the word “hate” to describe my feelings for – and alcohol is one of those few. I just loathe what it does to people. In my opinion and experience (and this is just my opinion, and I might be totally off about this), it seems like it makes them reptilian. It turns off all capacity for love, affection, higher consciousness, and interpersonal connection, and renders people bumbling sub-human robots that are breathing, and technically alive, but have no mental processes going on. That’s my opinion. Maybe I’m really far off.
I do know why people have suggested it. That very “animalistic” condition can be a great help in sex, especially when the problem is the inability to connect with my baser nature, due to constant interference from my intellect. Drinking would shut off my intellect, thereby freeing my animalistic urges to express themselves. I understand that.
But it throws the baby out with the bathwater. All of those “higher faculties” that alcohol shuts off, are some of the most central aspects of making love to someone. If I lose those, then I see there being no point to even bother.
Maybe I’ll order some phenibut, like Gorgiass suggested.
I should also mention that I’ve tried gaming on weed, and I got some pretty stunning results, interest-wise (girls looking at me like I’m the coolest, most interesting person they’ve ever seen, and wondering if I’m a famous person that they somehow don’t recognize). But it didn’t get me any closer to TOUCHING and getting intimate.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Ok, I should give you a general update on my situation…
I’m at the yoga center now, been spending weekdays here and weekends in the city (I teach on Saturdays).
I started doing some light touching, during conversations. The pattern usually goes like this:

1. I'll tease the girl a little bit
2. She pretends to be sad and does a little fake cry/pouting
3. I 'comfort' her, involving a hand on her shoulder.

That's the extent of my physical touch for the moment, but at least I'm touching. What next? What's the next level?
09-26-2014 09:09 PM
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thegreenman Offline
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Post: #222
RE: Why Hasn't Game Worked?
Several of you have asked to see what I look like. Here ya go:



   
   
   

In this picture, without my hat, you can sorta see my hair situation:
   


Note: the girls are not muslim. It's just for UV protection Wink
09-26-2014 09:20 PM
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TripleG Offline
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Post: #223
RE: Why Hasn't Game Worked?
(09-26-2014 09:20 PM)thegreenman Wrote:  Several of you have asked to see what I look like. Here ya go:







In this picture, without my hat, you can sorta see my hair situation:



Note: the girls are not muslim. It's just for UV protection Wink

Hm, in all those pictures, especially the last one you are touching so it is a start. Banana

Also, while you might be short you are OK looking (i was expecting some guy like Mr. Bean)
[Image: Mr.Bean11.jpg]
and to be honest you have 2/3 components that most of the western bitches look for which is the "tall, dark, handsome" stereo-type. SO, since you are still struggling in China and just touching girls on their shoulders I really do not see your situation improving much anytime soon IF you keep staying in the city where you're at. Have you considered going to a place where your WGF (White God Factor) would be through the roof, such as Cambodia, Thailand, or Philippines. You might actually be shocked that over there it will be the girls who will be approaching and touching you and you will just have to be "present".
09-26-2014 09:53 PM
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Post: #224
RE: Why Hasn't Game Worked?
Jeez - Greenman - sorry to hear about your childhood experiences with your parents. They really took out their emotional ineptitude and their unhappiness out on you.

Not having witnessed any personal contact between your parents is one thing - being psychologically terrorized is another matter which certainly was the more destructive thing for your psyche. A loving relationship with a girl might heal some of the wounds inflicted upon you.

Seems like you have some good times in China and your sexual market value is certainly way higher there.

By the way - having dated Jewish girls I can agree that quite a few are "complicated" - had an easier time with their brothers than them.

Also - regarding your looks - you probably heard this from guys already - most can optimize it by losing weight, bulking up some muscle, shaving the head and getting a tan. It may seem so basic, but all those things really work on women on some fundamental fashion triggering attraction points. Apart from that you are not an ugly dude, but you know that.

A friend of mine - tall good looking natural Alpha - even colors his skull with some kind of body paint, so that he may appear having hair, but choosing to shave it. He says, that sometimes the paint comes off in dark streams as he fucks the girls. Crazy - but he has also a crazy notch-count.

Either way - hope you get the notch soon enough - relationship Game will likely be the easiest way to go forward for now. Frankly also followed by a real relationship with the girl - beneficial on many levels. And you might consider the looks optimization to make it easier for you in the future.

Of course having 2 bottles of wine or some vodka and juices in your room is basic common sense. You can have a movie at your notebook to lure her in for a movie that you would like to show her. Also an invitation to cook for her some Western dish is also good. Girls often want to have plausible deniability in order to come up to a man's place.

Good luck.
(This post was last modified: 09-26-2014 10:25 PM by Simeon_Strangelight.)
09-26-2014 10:19 PM
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L M McCoy Offline
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Posts: 1,346
Joined: Feb 2014
Post: #225
RE: Why Hasn't Game Worked?
Have you tried running rabbi game?

Wish I had anything to offer you but I don't. I'm rooting for you and will be checking up either in this thread or PM!
(This post was last modified: 09-26-2014 10:45 PM by L M McCoy.)
09-26-2014 10:43 PM
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