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I hate the corporate world, especially in IT
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cibo Offline
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Post: #76
RE: I hate the corporate world, especially in IT
Please add me to the list. I might need some help here and there for the work i do.
(This post was last modified: 07-27-2014 05:33 AM by cibo.)
07-27-2014 05:32 AM
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puckerman Offline
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Post: #77
RE: I hate the corporate world, especially in IT
My best IT work experiences have been in mid-size companies--maybe 40 to 100 people. It was great at a non-profit. I also think I would enjoy doing IT work at a college.
07-28-2014 01:21 AM
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americanInEurope Offline
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Post: #78
RE: I hate the corporate world, especially in IT
OP,

This might also be the corporate America attitude. After 14 years of working in that shit I got fed up and decided to take on an IT job in Germany, as a local, on the "economy" as they say in the military IT circles. Although some things will always be the same, by and large it's a lot more stress free. Germany and Europeans in general have a more relaxed attitude, even about work. I hear California is also like this. The pressure is the same when your balls are on the line and the data center goes down, but when stuff is up there's usually no need to fill people with busy work or make you feel bad for taking a day off. I'm also in a senior position and that usually means something in Europe. I notice in America they give people senior titles who aren't really senior. I get told that something needs to be done, then they leave me alone and let me figure out how to get it done. That's how it's supposed to work. The company I work for has 50 office around the world and hundreds of lawyers. I'm tier 3/4 so I don't have to talk to them, but my "customer" is the IT guys on the ground.

But back to your original focus, the guys on here are right that say that the best way out of that shit is to cert up and keep it moving. I can tell you from experience that the grass is not greener on the other side. You'll always have an asshole boss or a douchbag co worker who thinks he's your boss. Do YOUR end of the bargain by doing whatever menial shit task they give you so god-damn good that they get a hard on. I mean put some elbow grease in it and do it better than anybody else. Don't bitch, don't complain, just do it. And again, and again, and again. If after months of this, they still don't give you more responsibility, cert up and move on. It's their loss. From what I know, you'll probably be the bosses little favorite by that point and he/she won't let you go.

Which brings me to, IMO, the biggest problem in working in IT. The actual WORK is the easy part. Given enough time, any so called guru can google and figure out a problem. It's inevitable. No, the biggest problem when working in IT is the PEOPLE you have to work with. Nowhere have I seen so many entitled, whiny little bitches who bring home over six-figure salaries in my entire life. Some people really truly think they are God's gift to the company, and if they leave, production will come to a screeching halt. A lot of older guys get set in their ways, sit in their position for decades, and enjoy tormenting the shit out of younger guys. Some see you as competition because you're younger or smarter or whatever. A lot of the time, just your presence alone is enough to send them into a frenzy. Just you being there makes them feel like their days are numbered, so they must attack. Then you have the women in IT, who are so eager to prove their self worth that they truly take all the fun out of the job, to where it becomes all about posturing and passive aggressive contests. Are you younger? Are you single? These are factors that may be affecting why you're not given any responsibility, regardless of the fact that you probably have certs that the older married guys don't have. It's unfair and a form of discrimination, but it is what it is. At least people will admit it, and that's the first step to stopping it.

Anyway, I feel your pain. Shit didn't start getting easy for me until I got into my 30's and got my CCNP (I'm a network guy). Now that I'm an afternoon lab shy away from my CCIE, the same guys who tormented the fuck out of me as a younger guy all of a sudden want to be homies on LinkedIn, completely forgetting about the past. Lesson of the day: your tormented and horrible corporate life means NOTHING to them. At the end of the day, they'll go home to their shitty life and shitty wife and forget all about how they made your work life a living hell. And 10 years from now, they'll look back and somehow think you guys were pals. So as cliche as this may sound, fuck them. Get the knowledge you can out them and move on. This is a rite of passage that we all have to go through. And whatever doesn't make you walk out that fucking door and quit, will make you a stronger and better tech.

America is where you go to make money. Overseas is where you go to live your life.
07-28-2014 02:30 PM
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puckerman Offline
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Post: #79
RE: I hate the corporate world, especially in IT
(07-28-2014 02:30 PM)americanInEurope Wrote:  Which brings me to, IMO, the biggest problem in working in IT. The actual WORK is the easy part. Given enough time, any so called guru can google and figure out a problem. It's inevitable. No, the biggest problem when working in IT is the PEOPLE you have to work with. Nowhere have I seen so many entitled, whiny little bitches who bring home over six-figure salaries in my entire life. Some people really truly think they are God's gift to the company, and if they leave, production will come to a screeching halt. A lot of older guys get set in their ways, sit in their position for decades, and enjoy tormenting the shit out of younger guys. Some see you as competition because you're younger or smarter or whatever. A lot of the time, just your presence alone is enough to send them into a frenzy. Just you being there makes them feel like their days are numbered, so they must attack. Then you have the women in IT, who are so eager to prove their self worth that they truly take all the fun out of the job, to where it becomes all about posturing and passive aggressive contests. Are you younger? Are you single? These are factors that may be affecting why you're not given any responsibility, regardless of the fact that you probably have certs that the older married guys don't have. It's unfair and a form of discrimination, but it is what it is. At least people will admit it, and that's the first step to stopping it.

Anyway, I feel your pain. Shit didn't start getting easy for me until I got into my 30's and got my CCNP (I'm a network guy). Now that I'm an afternoon lab shy away from my CCIE, the same guys who tormented the fuck out of me as a younger guy all of a sudden want to be homies on LinkedIn, completely forgetting about the past. Lesson of the day: your tormented and horrible corporate life means NOTHING to them. At the end of the day, they'll go home to their shitty life and shitty wife and forget all about how they made your work life a living hell. And 10 years from now, they'll look back and somehow think you guys were pals. So as cliche as this may sound, fuck them. Get the knowledge you can out them and move on. This is a rite of passage that we all have to go through. And whatever doesn't make you walk out that fucking door and quit, will make you a stronger and better tech.

Entitled shits making six-figures? You'll meet entitled shits who make less than half that.

Back in 1998, one dickhead owner of a company fired me after four days on the job. This was one business day after he'd given me a key to the place a day earlier. About six years later, he's going out of my way to be nice to me when I meet him at a Microsoft event. If I'd had a private moment with him, I'm not sure what I would have done.

The same thing happened with another guy who made my life hell on a job in 1998. The son of a bitch later wanted me to buy stuff from his employer.
(This post was last modified: 07-29-2014 03:26 AM by puckerman.)
07-29-2014 03:26 AM
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Bergalerg Offline
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Post: #80
RE: I hate the corporate world, especially in IT
I'm looking to go into computer information systems management as my major. From what I can see experience and certs are important for the first 5 years then you move on to a better paying job that isn't shit? Any advice would be appreciated i'm going to a state university basically for free because of scholarships and I picked this major because it makes the most and seems like the least amount of effort. I am good at just about everything so I just followed average salary dollars for job choice and I am a very content person by nature so I don't have extreme passions when it come to working somewhere.
07-29-2014 06:26 PM
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Travesty Offline
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Post: #81
RE: I hate the corporate world, especially in IT
After reading all this I have to say it sounds like systems and network guys have a much shittier starting out.

If you become a web, app, firmware, or embedded developer with skill and a portfolio of work your option even at graduation or at most 1-2 years into your career are seemingly much better without the need for certs.

At the right companies I'd say (about 15-20% of software shops) devs are treated very well. You need to hold out for those companies. There are literally so many opportunitied you just have to slow play and go through 10 easily lined up interviews to find the golden one.

These companies are usually in urban trendy areas where the CEO, CTO have dev backgrounds themselves, are 35-45 yo, very SWPL, and understand what you bring to the table.

Absolutely refuse to work for or with a bunch of Indians, FOBs, or Boomer Generation and you are good.

These enclaves exist because they work well and produce high quality software without the bullshit.

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(This post was last modified: 07-29-2014 06:48 PM by Travesty.)
07-29-2014 06:39 PM
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puckerman Offline
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Post: #82
RE: I hate the corporate world, especially in IT
(07-29-2014 06:26 PM)Bergalerg Wrote:  I'm looking to go into computer information systems management as my major.

I'm going to provide advice and am willing to bet you'll ignore it. Change majors and go into something else. Have you read all the posts in this thread?

Quote:From what I can see experience and certs are important for the first 5 years then you move on to a better paying job that isn't shit?

In the first five years, you don't have much experience. In my experience, certifications are worthless. I had an A+ in 1998 and was an MCSE on NT 4.0 in the year 2000. Neither was any help.

Quote:I picked this major because it makes the most and seems like the least amount of effort.

Who told you that it makes the most? Who told you it has the least effort? I've busted my ass for 16 years and don't make over $50,000.

Have you talked to people who work in this industry?

Quote:I am good at just about everything

Are you really? Then why do you want to go into IT? How do you think? How do you make decisions? If you are so smart, then why are you making a critical life decision based on some stupid data you read on some web site?

Quote: so I just followed average salary dollars for job choice

Are these average salary dollars just for working people? Or do they include the unemployed and count them as zero in the average? How do you know this information is true?

Have you talked to people who do this work?

Quote: and I am a very content person by nature so I don't have extreme passions when it come to working somewhere.

Then you'll grow to hate it pretty fast. Of course, if you truly are this apathetic, you might do okay. There's a ton of apathy in the industry, and the most apathetic people rise to the top.

I don't think you are looking for advice. You have posted this, and you want someone to validate your decision. You'll probably end up learning the hard way.

Whatever career choice you make, get out and talk to people who to do the work. Ask them if they like their jobs or if they hate their jobs. Ask them how they got into it? Ask what they like best and least? Talk to people, instead of reading web sites.
(This post was last modified: 07-30-2014 02:07 AM by puckerman.)
07-30-2014 02:03 AM
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roid Offline
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RE: I hate the corporate world, especially in IT
07-30-2014 02:09 AM
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iknowexactly Offline
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Post: #84
RE: I hate the corporate world, especially in IT
(07-22-2014 10:07 AM)Kaii Wrote:  Have any of you been in this situation? How did you handle it?

I really just want to feel free.

Thanks for reading and any advice would be great.

Oh, IT work sucks unless you have an unusual niche ( outside consultant who can work remote.) or the type of personality that doesn't mind being in the POD.

I did it for years, programmers especially good programmers are usually very schizoid, meaning they don't really like human interaction as much as average people do. I've been criticized by management for having a five minute conversation because that meant I wasn't programming.

They essentially want a machine.

The most fun type of work I had was with

1) a database I liked and I did consulting
2) ONLY WORKED PREPAID BY THE HOUR,
3) stated in the contract I would not work any specified minimum of hours.

Being prepaid and really beating it into them that I do not do project pricing made it hugely easier.


"The goal of {amoral} capitalism is to reduce all human interaction to the cash nexus." L. D.
07-30-2014 05:08 AM
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Gallego2006 Offline
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Post: #85
RE: I hate the corporate world, especially in IT
Awesome thread. Really resonates with what I'm experiencing here in the Bay Area. These top companies really project an awesome image publicly, but once you're on the inside it's just business as usual and they target paying people lower than the going rate -- I heard that the target is roughly 75-85% of the market rate (read: peer companies) of the role.

Take this whole fiasco, which Tech Workers in the Bay Area are still in denial about:
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2014/03/g...rkers.html
07-30-2014 09:24 AM
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RockHard Offline
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Post: #86
RE: I hate the corporate world, especially in IT
(07-30-2014 02:09 AM)roid Wrote:  http://wallstreetplayboys.com/everything...-a-career/

What he said ^^

Quote:You are essentially a money making machine for someone else.

Joel Spolsky said something similar years ago http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/f...00074.html

Quote:Imagine that the goal of your software company is not to solve some specific problem, but to be able to convert money to code through programmers.

Taken another way, you are a machine to create money by writing code. That's why "fuck you, pay me" is the way to go. If you don't have equity in the company, or if you do have equity but the prospects aren't good (and you don't have golden handcuffs - i.e. your options aren't vested yet and you'd be walking away from a lot of money), then all you get is salary, and you're very likely underpaid.

Computer Information Systems Management - are you getting a 4 year degree to be a sysadmin? Not necessary. Sysadmins are generally pretty overworked because they're the ones who are getting texts at 2AM because the database is on fire.

Read this: http://stilldrinking.org/programming-sucks It's a very accurate and cynical take on what life is like as a dev or sysadmin:

Quote:Remember that stuff about crazy people and bad code? The internet is that except it's literally a billion times worse. Websites that are glorified shopping carts with maybe three dynamic pages are maintained by teams of people around the clock, because the truth is everything is breaking all the time, everywhere, for everyone. Right now someone who works for Facebook is getting tens of thousands of error messages and frantically trying to find the problem before the whole charade collapses. There's a team at a Google office that hasn't slept in three days. Somewhere there's a database programmer surrounded by empty Mountain Dew bottles whose husband thinks she's dead. And if these people stop, the world burns. Most people don't even know what sysadmins do, but trust me, if they all took a lunch break at the same time they wouldn't make it to the deli before you ran out of bullets protecting your canned goods from roving bands of mutants.

It sounds like funny postmodern cynicism. It's not. I've been doing this for 20 years. I know people who've worked for Microsoft, Amazon, Apple.
07-30-2014 10:13 AM
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Kaii Offline
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RE: I hate the corporate world, especially in IT
Thank you all for the replies and the interest in the PM list. I haven't forgotten about you guys, I will be sending out PMs shortly.

Thanks.

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07-31-2014 12:11 PM
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RE: I hate the corporate world, especially in IT
(07-31-2014 12:11 PM)Kaii Wrote:  Thank you all for the replies and the interest in the PM list. I haven't forgotten about you guys, I will be sending out PMs shortly.

Thanks.

Hey guys, newly inducted into the IT world myself (always grew up with it). Performance engineer for EMC. I'm new to the whole system/world of corporate (coming form 6 years of restaurant life-style), I could really use some guidance/help as well!

Thanks in advance!
07-31-2014 11:58 PM
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iknowexactly Offline
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RE: I hate the corporate world, especially in IT
(07-27-2014 03:06 AM)Glaucon Wrote:  I hate my IT job. The management is just a joke. I am doing everything I can to start my own business.
Often I wonder how things even function with this kind of negligence.

What happens to computers that started working ten years ago?

That's about what happens to programmers that started working ten years ago.

Don't get involved unless you are earning at a level where you can get out by 35-40.

I am so glad I got into health care instead, after a dreary career as a mediocre programmer. Sometimes the patient dies. That's not a "bug" I have to fix.


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08-01-2014 12:23 AM
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The Wire Offline
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RE: I hate the corporate world, especially in IT
(07-29-2014 06:26 PM)Bergalerg Wrote:  I'm looking to go into computer information systems management as my major. From what I can see experience and certs are important for the first 5 years then you move on to a better paying job that isn't shit? Any advice would be appreciated i'm going to a state university basically for free because of scholarships and I picked this major because it makes the most and seems like the least amount of effort. I am good at just about everything so I just followed average salary dollars for job choice and I am a very content person by nature so I don't have extreme passions when it come to working somewhere.

I have Bachelor's in Computer Information Systems.

Don't worry about certs at the start. You want to focus on your University getting you internships and then making sure you are able to leverage those internships into job offers or at the very least you them as references when you graduate. Once you start your job somewhere and have a path you want to go down you can worry about certifications.

I wouldn't call it a rewarding career by any means but im also not stupid enough to act like it's the worst position to be in either.
08-03-2014 06:32 PM
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RE: I hate the corporate world, especially in IT
(07-30-2014 02:03 AM)puckerman Wrote:  Who told you that it makes the most? Who told you it has the least effort? I've busted my ass for 16 years and don't make over $50,000.

Have you talked to people who work in this industry?


I think he is basically saying that a Computer Information Systems major has similar pay to top paying computer degrees(Computer Science, Computer Engineering) but the catch is the coursework is easier. In this case I do agree with that. 50k starting out of college is very doable. Most top out around 100k with enough experience and then you need to move into management positions to go higher.
08-03-2014 06:42 PM
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Glider Offline
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RE: I hate the corporate world, especially in IT
Some of you guys really should come to Australia for a couple of years. 6 figures is pretty easy to get in IT.
08-04-2014 02:38 AM
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RE: I hate the corporate world, especially in IT
(08-04-2014 02:38 AM)Glider Wrote:  Some of you guys really should come to Australia for a couple of years. 6 figures is pretty easy to get in IT.

How easy is it for an American to get a job in Australia?
08-04-2014 03:47 AM
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Glider Offline
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RE: I hate the corporate world, especially in IT
I have absolutely no idea you may need to look at the types of visas available.
08-04-2014 05:40 AM
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RE: I hate the corporate world, especially in IT
(08-03-2014 06:32 PM)The Wire Wrote:  I wouldn't call it a rewarding career by any means but im also not stupid enough to act like it's the worst position to be in either.

true, i did it to get out of the kitchens of the world and it worked.


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08-04-2014 07:21 AM
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RE: I hate the corporate world, especially in IT
(08-04-2014 02:38 AM)Glider Wrote:  Some of you guys really should come to Australia for a couple of years. 6 figures is pretty easy to get in IT.



Isn't the cost of living in Australia really high as well? You can get 100k easy in the U.S. as well in high cost areas like Mountain View, CA.
08-05-2014 06:29 PM
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TravelerKai Offline
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RE: I hate the corporate world, especially in IT
Getting a degree in basket weaving won't make a hill of beans of a difference. Experience is king. Get your certs if you do not have a Management Information Systems degree, Supply Chain, Computer Science, etc. All a college degree does is tell them that you can read, write, perform arithmetic, form coherent statements, and possibly present information in a meeting well enough not to embarrass your bosses in front of their peers. People without a college degree often times get looked over because they tend to be less professional. Making super rude comments, poor ethics, lacking attention to details, and a lack of critical reading skills for research purposes. Also some managers feel that a 4 year degree means that they feel like you know what it is like to sacrifice for 4 years for something important. Like a rite of passage. Also, they do not want to be the guy that cannot promote a good worker to a supervisor or manager role that does not have a 4 year degree, all because HR and company policy demands it, so it's better to just throw all those resumes in the trash can if they have plenty to pick from.

Internships are powerful if you are still in college. If you are not in college with zero experience get your certs, pay for a boot camp, or video class.

Here is a sample blueprint I sent someone else in a PM last month.

Quote:If you want the fastest money track with the best pay starting out, I would have to say Network Engineer by far is still the best for that.

Get Cisco certified on routing, switching, wireless, or security, etc.

Basically it goes like this

CCENT -> CCNA -> CCNP -> CCIE

Cisco Certified Entry level, CC Networking Associate, CC Network Professional, CC Infrastructure Engineer

Pay ranges are the following:

40-50K -> 55-75K -> 75K-150K -> 200K-500K

If you choked at the CCIE pay, I can understand. Most people have no idea the kinds of money the guys behind the black curtains that keep the internet working. Those are are the elite of the elite. No one passes their first test attempt either. After you pass, Cisco offers you a job on the spot. Many turn it down and check the free market instead.

Anyway you could drop 5,000-10,000 on a Cisco academy to get you to CCENT and CCNA or self study with videos and simulators for a few hundred bucks. I don't know how much you know about IT, so it's hard to say which ones would work for you.

If networking is not something you are interested in, let me know because there are other areas of IT you can still do well or get good pay. If I had to do it all over again, I would have done the above^

Hope this helps.

If you are a SQL/Database Engineer, make sure you take the time to get fully certified as high as possible. Regardless of your experience. Doing shit like that make you almost recession proof. IT is competitive nowadays. A guy with lots of experience and certs is always picked over anyone else.

I always read this Salary Guide, every year, that is dead accurate for almost any IT position and comes with all kinds of nice information.

Robert Half IT Salary Guide

I wanted to attach it to this post but it was 2.4mb large and the limit for the pdf is 2.0mb.

Do yourselves all a favor and always keep up with the salary trends for your particular area of specialty. Since no company is loyal to us, make sure you get your credentials up to as high as possible, and adopt the "Fuck You, Pay Me" mantra.

Great states/cities for IT are Seattle, Phoenix, Houston, Dallas, Raleigh N. Carolina, New Jersey, Austin, Madison WI, Atlanta, Nashvile, San Fran, Santa Clara.

Feel free to ask me anything about this stuff. I will subscribe so that I can follow the thread better as well.

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08-07-2014 06:26 PM
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RE: I hate the corporate world, especially in IT
I work in Austin, and it sucks for IT. I know lots of people who have had trouble.
08-08-2014 04:08 AM
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Post: #99
RE: I hate the corporate world, especially in IT
Austin has had issues lately but it still has a number of jobs. Blackberry failing hurt the city last year. The city is known for niche stuff and Dell. Houston has had troubles as well but it still ranks very high for IT jobs worldwide. Eventually things change, like Microsoft moving their Datacenter stuff to Dallas because Washington raised property taxes on them. Just gotta make sure you have the best credentials in case you need to move, and work on being financial and location independent in your spare time. If you want to climb corporate work on an MBA.

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08-08-2014 09:38 AM
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Post: #100
RE: I hate the corporate world, especially in IT
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Hello gents. Don't want to hijack the thread but are there any full stack web devs around, preferably those who have experience with iOS/Android and maybe some UI/UX design?

If so, please get in touch - thank you.

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08-08-2014 10:35 AM
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