Read The Forum Rules: We have a clear set of rules to keep the forum running smoothly. Click here to review them.

Post Reply 
Hot off the press from the Washinton Post: Low testosterone civilized us
Author Message
poutsara Offline
Woodpecker
**

Posts: 486
Joined: Oct 2011
Reputation: 2
Post: #26
RE: Hot off the press from the Washinton Post: Low testosterone civilized us
This seems more like an attempt to take a small anatomic finding along with a small physiologic correlation and hype it up to make a good story for the mainstream media to bite onto. Media over science. Fodder for page clicks. Perception over substance.
08-03-2014 03:22 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
clever alias Offline
Banned

Posts: 581
Joined: Jul 2012
Post: #27
RE: Hot off the press from the Washinton Post: Low testosterone civilized us
(08-03-2014 01:56 PM)catoblepa Wrote:  
(08-03-2014 01:19 PM)clever alias Wrote:  i dont know why everyone is attributing civilization with oozing levels of T. Off the top of my head, both Newton and Tesla never expressed an interest in sex.Couple this with the Zuckerberg thread of successful men with meh women and Roissy saying that betas built civilization and this is completely plausible
maybe they were both gay and they had a promiscuous lifestyle hanging out with other queers or maybe they just channeled their sexual frustration into something else like science.
as I see it sex drive is a strong motivator that is often at the root of a successful career. you need to find the right balance between focus and motivation.

newton was a misanthropic asshole and tesla admitted he had no sex drive
08-03-2014 03:41 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Emancipator Offline
Ostrich
****
Gold Member

Posts: 2,341
Joined: Jan 2013
Reputation: 26
Post: #28
RE: Hot off the press from the Washinton Post: Low testosterone civilized us
(08-03-2014 12:18 PM)rekruler Wrote:  Total quackery. Here's a fact: humans evolved from apes. The further back you go in time, the more ape-like humans&hominids looked. The Occam's razor explanation of why human skulls today have less developed brows and other ape-like features than humans of 200,000 years ago is that we're further removed from apes than those archaic humans. To say that it's gotta be lower testosterone causing this type of changed morphology is asinine. Might as well argue that if human testosterone spiked 1000% we'd all of a sudden sprout a tail and morph into a fuking T-Rex.

To wit: brow ridges and huge jaws evolved to support the massive facial musculature needed to grind down heavy plant matter that forms the bulk of the diet of herbivorous animals. Once the diet starts to change-less grass more ass-the need for these heavy muscle-attachment points starts to wane and they gradually wither away over the eons. That explains the changing facial shapes throughout human evolution, not testosterone levels.
Humans have the highest T levels by far out of all the apes

Mother Nature is a bitch & Father Time has an undefeated record
"If you watch cinderella backwards, its about a woman who learns her place." --Kbell

demographics is destiny
08-03-2014 06:07 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
civpro Offline
Banned

Posts: 628
Joined: Jul 2014
Post: #29
RE: Hot off the press from the Washinton Post: Low testosterone civilized us
Raised IQ levels is what led to civilization mostly. I guess that along with a dropoff in test had an all around domesticating effect on males, giving rise to the stable family man. Or something.
(This post was last modified: 08-03-2014 06:39 PM by civpro.)
08-03-2014 06:18 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
rekruler Offline
Banned

Posts: 204
Joined: Sep 2011
Post: #30
RE: Hot off the press from the Washinton Post: Low testosterone civilized us
(08-03-2014 06:07 PM)Emancipator Wrote:  
(08-03-2014 12:18 PM)rekruler Wrote:  Total quackery. Here's a fact: humans evolved from apes. The further back you go in time, the more ape-like humans&hominids looked. The Occam's razor explanation of why human skulls today have less developed brows and other ape-like features than humans of 200,000 years ago is that we're further removed from apes than those archaic humans. To say that it's gotta be lower testosterone causing this type of changed morphology is asinine. Might as well argue that if human testosterone spiked 1000% we'd all of a sudden sprout a tail and morph into a fuking T-Rex.

To wit: brow ridges and huge jaws evolved to support the massive facial musculature needed to grind down heavy plant matter that forms the bulk of the diet of herbivorous animals. Once the diet starts to change-less grass more ass-the need for these heavy muscle-attachment points starts to wane and they gradually wither away over the eons. That explains the changing facial shapes throughout human evolution, not testosterone levels.
Humans have the highest T levels by far out of all the apes

If true, that just supports my point that the evolution of less ape-like facial structures has nothing to do with dropping testosterone levels.
08-03-2014 06:19 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
MikeCF Offline
Crow
*****
Gold Member

Posts: 4,116
Joined: Aug 2011
Reputation: 176
Post: #31
RE: Hot off the press from the Washinton Post: Low testosterone civilized us
1. Gender is socially constructed. Biology doesn't matter.

2. Testosterone is anti-civilization. Biology matters.
08-03-2014 08:41 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[-] The following 11 users Like MikeCF's post:
TigerMandingo, , Emancipator, The Reactionary Tree, redbeard, Avon Barksdale, Ocelot, DJ-Matt, Akula, Manny09, Master Of My Own Kingdom
MikeCF Offline
Crow
*****
Gold Member

Posts: 4,116
Joined: Aug 2011
Reputation: 176
Post: #32
RE: Hot off the press from the Washinton Post: Low testosterone civilized us
(08-03-2014 12:37 AM)Sonsowey Wrote:  Testosterone is linked to aggression, would society work well if people were more likely to just start fights and kill each other more often?

Do you think all the Internet trolls and haters and stalkers are low T or high T men? What is your best guess?

Conflict creates civilization. People act with dignity and respect if they know their words and actions had consequences.
08-03-2014 08:50 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[-] The following 3 users Like MikeCF's post:
Emancipator, The Reactionary Tree, Master Of My Own Kingdom
MikeCF Offline
Crow
*****
Gold Member

Posts: 4,116
Joined: Aug 2011
Reputation: 176
Post: #33
RE: Hot off the press from the Washinton Post: Low testosterone civilized us
(08-03-2014 01:19 PM)clever alias Wrote:  i dont know why everyone is attributing civilization with oozing levels of T. Off the top of my head, both Newton and Tesla never expressed an interest in sex.

Sexual transmutation of energy does not mean you have low T.

I had a T level of 1,500 and had a lower sex drive as I converted my sexual energy into artistic and creative energy.

When I don't have a project, I am a level below a sex addict.

I fell for that line, "Beta males built society," too, but then learned about sexual transmutation of energy and thus realize that betas don't build shit.

Alphas who channel their sexual energy into other forms of conquest are civilization builders.

The beta males are the ones who follow orders and do what they are told to do. Without the alpha leadership, nothing would get done.
08-03-2014 08:54 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[-] The following 7 users Like MikeCF's post:
The Beast1, xpatplayer, The Reactionary Tree, redbeard, RawGod, Akula, Master Of My Own Kingdom
xpatplayer Offline
Kingfisher
***

Posts: 710
Joined: Nov 2013
Reputation: 15
Post: #34
RE: Hot off the press from the Washinton Post: Low testosterone civilized us
(08-03-2014 08:54 PM)MikeCF Wrote:  
(08-03-2014 01:19 PM)clever alias Wrote:  i dont know why everyone is attributing civilization with oozing levels of T. Off the top of my head, both Newton and Tesla never expressed an interest in sex.

Sexual transmutation of energy does not mean you have low T.

I had a T level of 1,500 and had a lower sex drive as I converted my sexual energy into artistic and creative energy.

When I don't have a project, I am a level below a sex addict.

I fell for that line, "Beta males built society," too, but then learned about sexual transmutation of energy and thus realize that betas don't build shit.

Alphas who channel their sexual energy into other forms of conquest are civilization builders.

The beta males are the ones who follow orders and do what they are told to do. Without the alpha leadership, nothing would get done.

Great observation Mike. Could you expand on it in a post or podcast on D&P? Not trying to ask for too much but I believe that this is something which may help many men who are trying to find creative outlets for their energy.

This is an unexplored concept after all. Most red pill blogs simply list testosterone as a hormone which helps you attract women, nothing more.
08-03-2014 09:05 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
The Lizard of Oz Offline
Crow
*****
Gold Member

Posts: 5,210
Joined: Aug 2013
Reputation: 266
Post: #35
RE: Hot off the press from the Washinton Post: Low testosterone civilized us
(08-03-2014 08:41 PM)MikeCF Wrote:  1. Gender is socially constructed. Biology doesn't matter.

2. Testosterone is anti-civilization. Biology matters.

Post Of The Day

same old shit, sixes and sevens Shaft...
08-03-2014 09:10 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
MikeCF Offline
Crow
*****
Gold Member

Posts: 4,116
Joined: Aug 2011
Reputation: 176
Post: #36
RE: Hot off the press from the Washinton Post: Low testosterone civilized us
(08-03-2014 09:05 PM)xpatplayer Wrote:  Great observation Mike. Could you expand on it in a post or podcast on D&P? Not trying to ask for too much but I believe that this is something which may help many men who are trying to find creative outlets for their energy.

Yes, I will.
08-03-2014 09:15 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[-] The following 1 user Likes MikeCF's post:
iop890
Collide Offline
Kingfisher
***

Posts: 533
Joined: Aug 2013
Reputation: 14
Post: #37
RE: Hot off the press from the Washinton Post: Low testosterone civilized us
I think people are making a mountain out of a molehill here. If the article instead read "Low testosterone creates a docile society" you'd probably be more eager to agree, and they both mean the same thing.

Government wants a complacent society to control, in that sense low testosterone is good from their perspective. For the individual, the opposite is true. Men need moderate levels of aggression to compete in the sexual marketplace, the economic marketplace and the social marketplace. But again, the leviathan doesn't care about any of these things.
(This post was last modified: 08-03-2014 09:57 PM by Collide.)
08-03-2014 09:56 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
clever alias Offline
Banned

Posts: 581
Joined: Jul 2012
Post: #38
RE: Hot off the press from the Washinton Post: Low testosterone civilized us
(08-03-2014 08:54 PM)MikeCF Wrote:  
(08-03-2014 01:19 PM)clever alias Wrote:  i dont know why everyone is attributing civilization with oozing levels of T. Off the top of my head, both Newton and Tesla never expressed an interest in sex.

Sexual transmutation of energy does not mean you have low T.

I had a T level of 1,500 and had a lower sex drive as I converted my sexual energy into artistic and creative energy.

When I don't have a project, I am a level below a sex addict.

I fell for that line, "Beta males built society," too, but then learned about sexual transmutation of energy and thus realize that betas don't build shit.

Alphas who channel their sexual energy into other forms of conquest are civilization builders.

The beta males are the ones who follow orders and do what they are told to do. Without the alpha leadership, nothing would get done.

yes, but without beta bodies to do what has to get done, the alpha never moves past chucking a spear at other to protect his harem. what was more important in the industrial revolution? the new machines or the masses to accept shitty wages and conditions to work them? the point isnt "men should be like women for civilization," it's that the lessening of T levels in average will benefit society- and that makes sense. The alpha caveman may get more pussy than the 10 beta cavemen, but the 10 beta cavemen can collectively get far more done through cooperation and conflict resolution. if everyone feels the need to be in charge, you have the year of 4 emperors
08-03-2014 10:00 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
MikeCF Offline
Crow
*****
Gold Member

Posts: 4,116
Joined: Aug 2011
Reputation: 176
Post: #39
RE: Hot off the press from the Washinton Post: Low testosterone civilized us
(08-03-2014 10:00 PM)clever alias Wrote:  it's that the lessening of T levels in average will benefit society- and that makes sense.

Why does it make sense?
08-04-2014 12:09 AM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Menace Offline
Crow
*****
Gold Member

Posts: 4,074
Joined: Sep 2010
Reputation: 56
Post: #40
RE: Hot off the press from the Washinton Post: Low testosterone civilized us
I'm willing to bet that the original study on which this article is based is deeply flawed. This makes the article pure propaganda.
08-04-2014 07:14 AM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
TigerMandingo Offline
Banned

Posts: 4,016
Joined: Dec 2013
Post: #41
RE: Hot off the press from the Washinton Post: Low testosterone civilized us
(08-04-2014 07:14 AM)Menace Wrote:  I'm willing to bet that the original study on which this article is based is deeply flawed. This makes the article pure propaganda.

Exactly. This isn't about testosterone or who built civilization. It's just another shining example of the state of American journalism.

Here are the first two sentences of the article: "No, this isn’t some jab at dudes. According to a study published in Current Anthropology..."

Now, this isn't some high school newspaper. This is the Washington FUCKING Post, one of the nation's most prestigious papers. The least you can expect is good writing and analysis. Instead, you get "this isn't some jab at dudes". Not only that, but the author draws a conclusion based off of ONE study. Published in Current Anthropology. I won't even attempt to go into how completely blue-pill that field has become.

I'm sure Days of Broken Arrows can provide some better insights on this.
08-04-2014 08:00 AM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[-] The following 2 users Like TigerMandingo's post:
Days of Broken Arrows, Ocelot
The Reactionary Tree Offline
Pelican
****
Gold Member

Posts: 1,101
Joined: Apr 2014
Reputation: 28
Post: #42
RE: Hot off the press from the Washinton Post: Low testosterone civilized us
(08-04-2014 08:00 AM)Cunnilinguist Wrote:  
(08-04-2014 07:14 AM)Menace Wrote:  I'm willing to bet that the original study on which this article is based is deeply flawed. This makes the article pure propaganda.

Exactly. This isn't about testosterone or who built civilization. It's just another shining example of the state of American journalism.

Here are the first two sentences of the article: "No, this isn’t some jab at dudes. According to a study published in Current Anthropology..."

Now, this isn't some high school newspaper. This is the Washington FUCKING Post, one of the nation's most prestigious papers. The least you can expect is good writing and analysis. Instead, you get "this isn't some jab at dudes". Not only that, but the author draws a conclusion based off of ONE study. Published in Current Anthropology. I won't even attempt to go into how completely blue-pill that field has become.

I'm sure Days of Broken Arrows can provide some better insights on this.

It seems that there are two schools of anthropology that exist nowadays.

1. The social construct crowd - there is no such thing as biology; its all the same (this is the larger of the two schools; blue pill)

2. The HBD/biology/evopsych crowd - biology/evolution is reality; genetics matter (this is the smaller and more politically incorrect of the two schools)

We can safely assume that most mainstream Anthropology journals are probably from a blue-pill perspective.

The sciences have become a fucking racket. Here is how it works:

Progressives invade academia > produce more progressive academics > those academics invade government bureaucracy > those bureaucracies provide funding for academia... and the cycle repeats itself. Progressive bureaucrats funding progressive studies by progressive academics.

Studies that spit in the face of political correctness are not going to receive the funding.


If lower testosterone creates civilization then why havent there been any matriarchal societies??? hmmmm?? If the lowering of testosterone creates civilization then surely the near absence of it would be a Utopian paradise, right?
08-04-2014 08:15 AM
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[-] The following 6 users Like The Reactionary Tree's post:
xpatplayer, MikeCF, TheWastelander, Emancipator, Ocelot, Master Of My Own Kingdom
Days of Broken Arrows Offline
Crow
*****
Gold Member

Posts: 5,105
Joined: Jan 2013
Reputation: 211
Post: #43
RE: Hot off the press from the Washinton Post: Low testosterone civilized us
(08-04-2014 08:00 AM)Cunnilinguist Wrote:  
(08-04-2014 07:14 AM)Menace Wrote:  I'm willing to bet that the original study on which this article is based is deeply flawed. This makes the article pure propaganda.

Exactly. This isn't about testosterone or who built civilization. It's just another shining example of the state of American journalism.

Here are the first two sentences of the article: "No, this isn’t some jab at dudes. According to a study published in Current Anthropology..."

Now, this isn't some high school newspaper. This is the Washington FUCKING Post, one of the nation's most prestigious papers. The least you can expect is good writing and analysis. Instead, you get "this isn't some jab at dudes". Not only that, but the author draws a conclusion based off of ONE study. Published in Current Anthropology. I won't even attempt to go into how completely blue-pill that field has become.

I'm sure Days of Broken Arrows can provide some better insights on this.

Haha -- I was going to post before I even saw my name.

There are a lot of signs the Post (where I used to write) has gone full-throttle nuts when it comes to pushing an agenda. Exhibit A is Alyssa Rosenberg who claimed recently that Robin Thicke's latest single: "is a massive cliche, and one with sometimes-deadly implications for the women who are urged by violent or emotionally abusive partners that this time it will be different."

Got that? "Get Her Back," a mere song = death to females. The church ladies of the PMRC in the 1980s seem rational compared to this. This is out-and-out feminist paranoia based on no facts. I can't imagine an editor letting me get away with that in the 2000s.

Rosenberg comes from ThinkProgress and Slate, and I'm surprised the Post would give here that much leeway to spout cliched feminist memes. Perhaps "all sex is rape" will be next for her.

But the main giveaway that the Post has an agenda comes from another site: Diversity in American Media, where former arts editor Shauna Miller came right out and said it: "Shauna Miller is senior arts editor at the Washington Post Express, where she attempts to queer the Weekend Pass section each week by spotlighting local and national LGBT musicians, artists and authors."

Think about that. Featuring gay artists along with straight ones is something any editor should do, but should there be an attempt to "queer" the section per se? What if a Christian editor had attempted to "Christianize the section?" Or a Muslim did as much? Or what if a Pickup Artist decided to make the section "babe-licious?" How long do you think that would last?

Yeah, it's agenda-driven but it used to be much better. Once Bush got out of office, it seems, the left lost a common enemy and therefore its focus. Hence, Robin Thicke's love song to his ex-wife is somehow tantamount to homicide.
(This post was last modified: 08-04-2014 08:19 AM by Days of Broken Arrows.)
08-04-2014 08:18 AM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[-] The following 4 users Like Days of Broken Arrows's post:
___, Emancipator, Ocelot, Akula
Deluge Offline
Hummingbird
*****
Gold Member

Posts: 3,995
Joined: Jun 2011
Reputation: 76
Post: #44
RE: Hot off the press from the Washinton Post: Low testosterone civilized us
I'm almost certain that high IQ people have less testosterone. I think most of us would've intuitively known this already.

Quote:So intelligent people have lower libidos and less masculine physiques. What hormone is responsible for both sex drive and masculine builds? That's right: testosterone.

And two new papers suggest that testosterone may depress IQ. One team found that salivary testosterone levels were lower for preadolescent boys with IQs above 130 and below 70. (the same two groups most likely to be virgins in adolescence)

Another paper suggests that a gene responsible for androgen sensitivity and higher sperm counts may also create a tradeoff for intelligence.

Perhaps the decrease in our testosterone levels over time can be partially explained by our increased intelligence.
(This post was last modified: 08-04-2014 09:27 AM by Deluge.)
08-04-2014 09:20 AM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
MikeCF Offline
Crow
*****
Gold Member

Posts: 4,116
Joined: Aug 2011
Reputation: 176
Post: #45
RE: Hot off the press from the Washinton Post: Low testosterone civilized us
^ Sounds like a spin job written by a timid HBD nerd who can't get laid.

The highest IQ men had some crazy sex lives.

http://news.discovery.com/history/scient...121302.htm
08-04-2014 10:54 AM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[-] The following 3 users Like MikeCF's post:
The Reactionary Tree, Ocelot, Master Of My Own Kingdom
MattW Offline
Robin
*

Posts: 240
Joined: Apr 2012
Reputation: 3
Post: #46
RE: Hot off the press from the Washinton Post: Low testosterone civilized us
This may sound like a sophomoric "why not both" kind of middle of the road compromise, but I think it's a mistake to label testosterone as good or bad. It's like people around here who equate red pill with good. Red pill isn't good or bad, it just is. It's positive not normative, descriptive not prescriptive.

Same with testosterone. It's the cause of many things, some of which are good and others are not so good. Elements of it that are extremely helpful for one job may be less helpful for another job, and both jobs are cogs in the machine of civilization. Many high T men are destructive and many low T men contribute a lot to other people's well being. And the opposite is just as true.

And of course let's not forget that even low T men have more testosterone than women, and the differences speak for themselves.
08-04-2014 11:08 AM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Deluge Offline
Hummingbird
*****
Gold Member

Posts: 3,995
Joined: Jun 2011
Reputation: 76
Post: #47
RE: Hot off the press from the Washinton Post: Low testosterone civilized us
(08-04-2014 10:54 AM)MikeCF Wrote:  ^ Sounds like a spin job written by a timid HBD nerd who can't get laid.

The highest IQ men had some crazy sex lives.

http://news.discovery.com/history/scient...121302.htm

If you're going to pull up actual data to debate with that's one thing (the research is all over the place, more needs to be done), but you know better than to use anecdotal evidence of 6 scientists sex lives; it doesn't mean anything and you know that. That's like saying that women don't prefer more muscular guys by pointing out that they find Russell Brand attractive.
(This post was last modified: 08-05-2014 04:19 AM by Deluge.)
08-05-2014 04:16 AM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Ocelot Offline
Kingfisher
***
Gold Member

Posts: 728
Joined: May 2013
Reputation: 47
Post: #48
RE: Hot off the press from the Washinton Post: Low testosterone civilized us
(08-04-2014 09:20 AM)Deluge Wrote:  I'm almost certain that high IQ people have less testosterone. I think most of us would've intuitively known this already.

Quote:So intelligent people have lower libidos and less masculine physiques. What hormone is responsible for both sex drive and masculine builds? That's right: testosterone.

And two new papers suggest that testosterone may depress IQ. One team found that salivary testosterone levels were lower for preadolescent boys with IQs above 130 and below 70. (the same two groups most likely to be virgins in adolescence)

I don't buy this study. Having worked extensively with gifted children, do you know what one of the most commonly shared traits was? Accelerated physical development. It seems absurd that the 6'2 twelve year old with the moustache and giant larynx has lower testosterone than his peers. If anything, this is yet another agenda driven study mixing cause and effect.

There are environmental factors that affect testosterone levels, and high IQ individuals tend to be directed towards work that involves an inordinate amount of sitting down. Who do you think leads a lifestyle more conducive to high testosterone: the 140 IQ accountant spending 10 hours a day behind a desk, or the 90 IQ construction worker? The fact that they use the phrase "less masculine physiques" rather than "less masculine facial structure" says a lot about the depth of the study, as well. Something tells me that by the criteria they were working on, if I were to work out more, I'd have a "more masculine physique". My IQ wouldn't have changed, though.

Also, I chuckled at the bolded bit. So low T is why the mentally retarded are more likely to be adolescent virgins, eh? It's also worth noting that once you get into the mid 140 range and beyond, a communication gap opens up between high IQ individuals and their peers. They are unable to truly communicate with children their own age right from infancy, so tend to gravitate more towards older children and adults, thereby growing up poorly socialised. I'm unsurprised that high IQ correlates with adolescent virginity, because many quite simply lack the tools to make small talk with their peers. This has nothing to do with testosterone.

Ocelot's reading list for those interested in musical composition
Ocelot's older, less focused list of books on music in general
To anyone who's leaving, my inbox is open.
08-05-2014 07:18 AM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[-] The following 1 user Likes Ocelot's post:
xpatplayer
Deluge Offline
Hummingbird
*****
Gold Member

Posts: 3,995
Joined: Jun 2011
Reputation: 76
Post: #49
RE: Hot off the press from the Washinton Post: Low testosterone civilized us
(08-05-2014 07:18 AM)Ocelot Wrote:  Having worked extensively with gifted children, do you know what one of the most commonly shared traits was? Accelerated physical development. It seems absurd that the 6'2 twelve year old with the moustache and giant larynx has lower testosterone than his peers.

I've never heard that before. I did some Google searches on "gifted children accelerated physical development", "gifted children quicker physical development" etc. but nothing relevant came up.
08-05-2014 07:27 AM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply 


Forum Jump:


User(s) browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)

Contact Us | RooshV.com | Return to Top | Return to Content | Mobile Version | RSS Syndication