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Lifter's Lounge
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Post: #4451
RE: Lifter's Lounge
(09-01-2018 08:25 AM)scorpion Wrote:  Unless you have extremely robust genetics (particularly your joints) and obsessively strict form, lifting more than 3-4 times per week is very likely going to lead to injury. This is especially true if you're natural and over the age of 27 or thereabouts. You may think that you're the exception, and that might be true. But it probably isn't. Injury prevention and gym longevity should be every intelligent lifter's first priority. Trying to eke out miniscule extra gains with additional gym time at the expense of recovery is not a good long term plan. It will catch up to you, and probably sooner rather than later. I personally find three days a week with an alternating A and B split (i.e. ABA one week, BAB the next) to be a good balance between frequency and long term injury prevention.

I agree with 50% of what you said and disagree with the other 50%. Injury prevention and longevity are critical.

You can train more than 3-4 times a week, provided you don't use maximal weights (90% of 1 RM or more). Generally speaking, natural lifters need more volume than their enhanced counterparts. This is reflected especially well in looking at 1980s/90s powerlifting programs.

Ed Coan (a great PLer, and the first man ever banned for life from the IPF) would work up to one maximal set of 8/5/3/2 once a week in the squat/bench/deadlift/btn press. When a natural lifter tries that approach, they almost always find that they suffer injuries towards the end or underperform at the meet.

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09-20-2018 10:19 AM
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General Stalin Offline
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Post: #4452
RE: Lifter's Lounge
^ I agree with TT here regarding frequency and injury prevention. It really comes down to what you are doing in the gym.

You can work out 7 days a week if you are staying below 75% effort all the time and do short easy workouts. Now if you are training with more intensity then you will want more rest to ensure longevity. Again, this all comes down to your goals.

If you're just a bro looking to get a little bigger and a little stronger then you don't need to be destroying yourself every week in the gym. On the other end of the spectrum, if you are a competitive fitness athlete and looking to get into the pros then you need to treat it as a job.

All that said, for most typical people wanting to look better, get stronger, and be in great shape and stay in great shape, I agree that hitting the gym 4 days a week is fine. You will of course see potentially better and faster results if you do 5-6 days a week, but its a balance of risk vs reward. Over the course of my time lifting, I generally have trained 5-6 days a week for the most part, but I have also sustained a handful of tweaks and minor injuries. I do not believe that the setbacks of my injuries negate the extra time I've spent in the gym.

At the end of the day: your mileage may vary.
09-20-2018 12:26 PM
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scorpion Offline
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Post: #4453
RE: Lifter's Lounge
I think it's a matter of age and individual genetics more than anything. When I was 20 years old I lifted heavy 6 days a week without an issue. In my mid-30s that's just not realistic. Like I said, guys with great genetics and robust joints can get away with it for longer. But Father Time catches up with everyone eventually. Ed Coan has had a double hip replacement and Ronnie Coleman is practically a cripple these days. The joints are always the weak point.

And my main point is that lifting any more than 3-4x a week is simply unnecessary in the same way that bench pressing is unnecessary. Both greatly increase your injury risk and thus decrease your gym longevity. Any extra gains you make will be lost due to time off from injury, and if you're unlucky the injury might be bad enough to take you out of the gym permanently. It basically boils down to: would you reduce your gains by 10% if in doing so you also reduced your risk of injury by 80%? I think that's a pretty fair bargain, because I place an extremely high premium on longevity and overall health/fitness. But I've been lifting for over 15 years now and have basically maxed out my natural strength and muscle gains, so I'm more concerned about maintaining for as long as possible. If you're 18 years old and trying to bulk or a 24 year old competitive powerlifter then obviously you might want to program a bit more aggressively. But I think most recreational lifters (which, let's be honest, is the vast majority of guys who just want to look better and feel better - and who probably don't have a lot of free time anyway) are best served by a 3-day a week lifting schedule.

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09-20-2018 08:41 PM
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StrikeBack Offline
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Post: #4454
RE: Lifter's Lounge
Between 24-35, I really got into various sports (late bloomer when it came to athletics). My injuries all came from my earlier years, when I trained 3 days a week and didn't really know how to train nor to take care of myself. I actually trained 6-7 days a week to recover from injuries, by using extra sessions as skill practice and active recovery. However, I have recently reduced my sessions not because I'm 35+ now, but because my lifestyle has changed.

There's the old saying in lifting: you're not over-trained, you're under-recovered. It's not that over-training doesn't happen, but most of the time it's because the athlete has low recovery capacity compared to his training. For a natural athlete, his lifestyle, not age, is the number one reason. It just so happens that our lifestyle tends to change massively as we get to a certain age.

In my late 20s to 34 (last year), I could train 6-7 days a week, in 2 different sports. One is powerlifting, the other is soccer, then boxing. I competed in both too, and went out dancing and dating at night. Younger guys couldn't understand how I could recover from it all. But it was no secret: I didn't drink (only socially), ate very well, slept for 9 hours, and I trained smart, not going all crazy bro every session.

Then my lifestyle changed: I got married, I got up earlier (slept less), worked on our little businesses, set up my habits to support a life with wife and children etc. An extra year in age doesn't affect my recovery, but all of those aforementioned factors do. If I tried to train like my earlier years, I'd get injured because I wouldn't have time to do proper recovery.

My retired father on the other hand has been lifting every day for the last 7 years (60-67). He has all the free time he needs to recover, and he loves lifting, so he goes to the gym daily for hours. Never been injured.

A young 20-something guy who trains 3-4 times a week but drinks a lot, goes out late all the time, has sleep troubles, doesn't eat enough good foods etc. will struggle to recover and get injured.

It's what you do outside the gym that determines how many sessions you can train a week.

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09-21-2018 03:21 AM
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Post: #4455
RE: Lifter's Lounge
(09-20-2018 08:41 PM)scorpion Wrote:  And my main point is that lifting any more than 3-4x a week is simply unnecessary in the same way that bench pressing is unnecessary.

Scorpion can you elaborate? I thought the whole bench press is unnecessary is a myth thing popular with young gym bros? If it's unnecessary why is it the core of almost every training regime?

Personally I agree that I got more out of dumbbell pressing but I wouldn't ditch a core compound exercise such as bench press.

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09-21-2018 04:12 AM
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Post: #4456
RE: Lifter's Lounge
A more practical substitute for flat bench press would be the overhead press. Lots of full body routines also will train power cleans and full cleans (think highschool football training). Those are more applicable movement patterns... but the bench press is a great compound movement for hitting chest and triceps at the same time.

That said, I think the DB bench press is a more efficient movement for training chest and triceps more than BB bench as you get more ROM (full extension nand contraction of miscles involved) and you need to rely more heavily on stabilizer miscles.
09-21-2018 04:36 AM
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Post: #4457
RE: Lifter's Lounge
The bench press is a really good movement, but weighted dips and the incline barbell press are also great movements and I see no problem in replacing the bench with either of those as the core movement in any of the popular programmes if flat bench causes problems (unless you're a powerlifter). Flat and incline dumbbell presses are good too, but the problem is that dumbbells increase in pretty big increments which isn't ideal for progression, and it's not possible to get as well set up and tight prior to beginning the movement as it is with barbell movements because of having to get the dumbbells into place. Truth is though, that if you get to a point where you can rep 110s on the incline then you're doing pretty well strength wise and you will most likely look great if you're bodyfat is low.

I like Lyle McDonald's criteria for main movement exercise selection which is pretty much any exercise that:
1. Works the target muscle effectively across multiple joints
2. Can be progressed in load easily and safely
3. Doesn't cause injury
09-21-2018 05:01 AM
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Post: #4458
RE: Lifter's Lounge
Squatted 3 x 5 x 85 kg for the first time. I know that is a small amount of weight, but a huge deal for me considering I had hip and knee issues basically since the early start of squatting. Some guys know story behind it but for others, at the beginning I used form like in Rippetoe's book, but it seems it destroyed my hips. On the other hand, my knees were soon later destroyed by ATG squats which I used as an alternative to Rippetoe squat.

Weight is being increased by 2.5 kg each time and I think I will hit 100 kg (225 lb) in about 2 weeks time or little more. But my knees are still sometimes hurting a bit. It is a mild pain that basically goes on and off. It never hurts during squatting though. It starts for example when going home from gym or several hours after gym, day after and so on. It persists for a minute or so, then disappears. All in all I think it is nothing that will make me avoid squatting. To counter possible knee issues during squat, I think I will buy knee sleeves. Good idea, yes/no?

On the other hand, funny thing is that I bent over rowed today same amount of weight for same reps. And my bench is 72.5 kg. So all these 3 lifts are very near one another.
(This post was last modified: 09-21-2018 01:11 PM by sterling_archer.)
09-21-2018 01:08 PM
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Post: #4459
RE: Lifter's Lounge
Knee sleeves might do something for your joints pain if it is tendon related. I wear elbow sleeves when benching and it's made a big difference in my tennis elbow. Other than that a lot of it is mental and makes you feel more stable and can make squatting feel more comfortable have a little bit of spring and cushion to bounce off of out of the hole.

Congrats on your progress!
09-21-2018 01:34 PM
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Post: #4460
RE: Lifter's Lounge
What about knee wraps? Btw, I don't consider these things cheating but more of an edge.
09-21-2018 01:45 PM
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Post: #4461
RE: Lifter's Lounge
Knee wraps are a PITA for training especially if you're not working with crazy heavy weights (not worth the time and hassle to put them on). I recommend knee sleeves, I have a few pairs for training and comp.

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09-21-2018 06:37 PM
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Post: #4462
RE: Lifter's Lounge
Wraps are assistance gear like wearing a bench shirt, multi-ply singlet, squat suit, etc. Will allow you to squat more weight than you actually can without gear.

I personally don't think they are practical unless you are actually training for a geared meet where you need to use them, though I've seen videos of even body builders using them for heavy squat sets.
09-22-2018 12:45 PM
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Post: #4463
RE: Lifter's Lounge
Similar to G. Stalin, I use elbow sleeves for heavy dips. I’m very prone to tendinitis in my elbows from both biceps and triceps exercises, and it seems to alleviate it for me.
09-22-2018 01:03 PM
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Post: #4464
RE: Lifter's Lounge
I have a question for you all.

Most mornings and nights I try to do the following mini set in the bathroom. I have a 25kg weight in there that I use for the weighted exercises

15x push up
15x abdo crunch
5x deadlift
15x squat
10x bicep curl
10x reverse sit up, lower abdo thing
15x tricep dip

I do the in addition to the ‘heavy’ day that I go to the gym for each week. I should add that I’m happy with the Body shape improvement that I’ve seen from this little routine.

Can you tell me if it’s ok to do this mini set each morning and evening or should I try and do it in a more constructive way, with a day off here and there?
(This post was last modified: 09-22-2018 01:37 PM by Ski pro.)
09-22-2018 01:30 PM
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Post: #4465
RE: Lifter's Lounge
If you are seeing improvements and you like doing it then no reason to stop. Only reason you should change it up is if you aren't getting returns or it's hindering you in some way.
09-22-2018 04:49 PM
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Post: #4466
RE: Lifter's Lounge
(09-21-2018 01:08 PM)sterling_archer Wrote:  Squatted 3 x 5 x 85 kg for the first time. I know that is a small amount of weight, but a huge deal for me considering I had hip and knee issues basically since the early start of squatting. Some guys know story behind it but for others, at the beginning I used form like in Rippetoe's book, but it seems it destroyed my hips. On the other hand, my knees were soon later destroyed by ATG squats which I used as an alternative to Rippetoe squat.

Weight is being increased by 2.5 kg each time and I think I will hit 100 kg (225 lb) in about 2 weeks time or little more. But my knees are still sometimes hurting a bit. It is a mild pain that basically goes on and off. It never hurts during squatting though. It starts for example when going home from gym or several hours after gym, day after and so on. It persists for a minute or so, then disappears. All in all I think it is nothing that will make me avoid squatting. To counter possible knee issues during squat, I think I will buy knee sleeves. Good idea, yes/no?

On the other hand, funny thing is that I bent over rowed today same amount of weight for same reps. And my bench is 72.5 kg. So all these 3 lifts are very near one another.

Knee sleeves address symptoms not cause. You have knee pain likely because of imbalances in the knees. I'd suggest doing side lunges/curtsy lunges/one leg movements in addition to your squats. Try doing them as a warmup.

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09-23-2018 04:14 PM
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Post: #4467
RE: Lifter's Lounge
(09-20-2018 08:41 PM)scorpion Wrote:  I think it's a matter of age and individual genetics more than anything. When I was 20 years old I lifted heavy 6 days a week without an issue. In my mid-30s that's just not realistic. Like I said, guys with great genetics and robust joints can get away with it for longer. But Father Time catches up with everyone eventually. Ed Coan has had a double hip replacement and Ronnie Coleman is practically a cripple these days. The joints are always the weak point.

And my main point is that lifting any more than 3-4x a week is simply unnecessary in the same way that bench pressing is unnecessary. Both greatly increase your injury risk and thus decrease your gym longevity. Any extra gains you make will be lost due to time off from injury, and if you're unlucky the injury might be bad enough to take you out of the gym permanently. It basically boils down to: would you reduce your gains by 10% if in doing so you also reduced your risk of injury by 80%? I think that's a pretty fair bargain, because I place an extremely high premium on longevity and overall health/fitness. But I've been lifting for over 15 years now and have basically maxed out my natural strength and muscle gains, so I'm more concerned about maintaining for as long as possible. If you're 18 years old and trying to bulk or a 24 year old competitive powerlifter then obviously you might want to program a bit more aggressively. But I think most recreational lifters (which, let's be honest, is the vast majority of guys who just want to look better and feel better - and who probably don't have a lot of free time anyway) are best served by a 3-day a week lifting schedule.

Ed Coan also squatted 1000 once, over 900 on 29 occasions, and deadlifted over 800. He's an amazing lifter, but lifting 900 lbs is not healthy no matter how sturdy your joints are. Ronnie Coleman was a steroid freak. Use of steroids plays a big role- the muscles often adapt faster than the joints/tendons do, which can lead to some very nasty injuries.

Coan also trained no more than 4 days a week in his prime. At any rate, I largely agree with you. If you want to lift more frequently than that, you need to train intelligently. Lifting at 90% and up on a regular basis is a recipe for overuse injuries. The Soviets did a ton of research on questions like intensity bands, volume, technique, etc. Most Soviet weightlifting training (I'm speaking about the Olympic sport, not bodybuilding) focused on volume in the 70-80% range. It's no secret that many of the best Soviet lifters had decade plus long careers.

Take Leonid Taranenko for example, the world record holder in the clean and jerk. He won his first international medal in 1979, as a 23 year old. His last international medal was in 1996 at the age of 40.

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(This post was last modified: 09-23-2018 04:28 PM by Truth Teller.)
09-23-2018 04:19 PM
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Post: #4468
RE: Lifter's Lounge
Truth teller, in your opinion what do you think is the reason I developed issues in my knees aside from atg squats? Do you think it is because I managed to increase weight every time and while muscles could keep up (obviously), joints didn't?

P. S. Russian lifters are out of this world. I think those trained by Sheiko personally got at least bronze medal when competing, are pretty much injury free and healthy throughout their life.
(This post was last modified: 09-24-2018 05:23 AM by sterling_archer.)
09-24-2018 05:22 AM
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Post: #4469
RE: Lifter's Lounge
(09-24-2018 05:22 AM)sterling_archer Wrote:  Truth teller, in your opinion what do you think is the reason I developed issues in my knees aside from atg squats? Do you think it is because I managed to increase weight every time and while muscles could keep up (obviously), joints didn't?

P. S. Russian lifters are out of this world. I think those trained by Sheiko personally got at least bronze medal when competing, are pretty much injury free and healthy throughout their life.

I'm not a physician, but basically, I think you're having knee pain because squats don't really strengthen the meniscus/other areas. It's also conceivable that you have some sort of imbalance that's now showing up because of the aggressive LP.

The solution isn't "ice your knees" or "take Advil." You just need to do one legged exercises alongside your squats from now on.

Sheiko is an amazing coach. However, he doesn't just shove lifters into one of those programs. There's a build up phase before hand, otherwise you'll want to die from the volume.

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(This post was last modified: 09-24-2018 05:23 PM by Truth Teller.)
09-24-2018 05:21 PM
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Post: #4470
RE: Lifter's Lounge
I've been out of action for a while with a shoulder injury as I've mentioned before, and mostly only been squatting. (Please heed Scorpion's advice about bench pressing - it's a lot of fun to push a lot of weight on the bench, but it's not much fun suffering from fucked up shoulders). I've been extremely cautious with my recovery, but I feel I'm about 95% recovered so I've been easing myself back into it over the last few weeks. I've decided to retire completely from any pressing movements - even though I can now press with relatively little pain, it doesn't feel "right" and I'd prefer not to tempt fate.

This is what I'm doing now and it seems to fit me well, but I'm open to any critique. I know that 6 days seems like overkill, especially for my situation, but I have 1.5 hours in the afternoon between appointments with nothing much to do and I'd rather be at the gym that sitting on my arse, and apart from Friday I'm done in less than 45 minutes. Needless to say, I'm preceeding with extreme caution.

Monday: Back squat 3x5, shoulders (side, front, rear delt raise)
Tuesday: Back (deadlift 3x5 and pull ups), biceps
Wednesday: Chest (cable flies), triceps
Thursday Front squat 5x5, biceps
Friday: Back (pull ups, cable rows), shoulders (side, front, rear delt raise), triceps
Saturday: Chest (cable flies)

What do y'all think of this?
(This post was last modified: 09-28-2018 07:57 AM by Horus.)
09-28-2018 07:56 AM
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Post: #4471
RE: Lifter's Lounge
What do you guys think about deadlift grip? Currently i do double overhand for the majority of my warm up, I then switch to mixed grip. My work set is 365 ibs x 5. I have lifting straps that I haven’t used yet, im not if I shoupd use them or continue with a mixed grip.
09-28-2018 09:15 AM
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RE: Lifter's Lounge
(09-28-2018 09:15 AM)Moses_ Wrote:  What do you guys think about deadlift grip? Currently i do double overhand for the majority of my warm up, I then switch to mixed grip. My work set is 365 ibs x 5. I have lifting straps that I haven’t used yet, im not if I shoupd use them or continue with a mixed grip.

I use double overhand as long as I can, then switch to mixed for my heaviest sets. Overhand for any volume work until I can't hold the bar through the set.

Works ok for me, managed to pull 180+KG double overhand earlier in the year with no issues.
09-28-2018 06:18 PM
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Post: #4473
RE: Lifter's Lounge
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(This post was last modified: 09-29-2018 12:50 PM by Zep.)
09-29-2018 12:45 PM
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Post: #4474
RE: Lifter's Lounge
What I do to stay in shape is bang fatties. They give me a hell of a workout, are always available and really cheap. They never forget to feed me proper nutrition for dem gainz either.
09-29-2018 05:45 PM
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General Stalin Offline
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Post: #4475
RE: Lifter's Lounge
Quote:What do you guys think about deadlift grip? Currently i do double overhand for the majority of my warm up, I then switch to mixed grip. My work set is 365 ibs x 5. I have lifting straps that I haven’t used yet, im not if I shoupd use them or continue with a mixed grip.

I used to do what Bluey does: double overhand grip until the weight/volume is too much that grip is a limiting factor then switch to mixed.

Now I always use double overhand and just use lifting straps with heavier weight/higher volume. I was thinking about it and realized mixed grip does not work your grip and unless you're at a PL meet then there's really no point to using mixed grip. It can cause muscle imbalances if you use it regularly over a long course of time, and you're putting your supinated bicep in a compromised position. One of the most common injuries among power lifters is tearing a bicep from deadlifts with mixed grip. I've been noticing the past few months when I pull heavier weight with mixed grip my bicep feels strained after each set. Not worth it.

Anything I can pull with straps I know I can pull with mixed grip for at least 1 rep and that's all that matters.
09-29-2018 10:05 PM
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