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Lifter's Lounge
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Vasily Zaytsev Offline
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Post: #4951
RE: Lifter's Lounge
(10-12-2019 05:37 AM)Irn Bru Protein Wrote:  Rippetoe is an injured old man because he’s likely ground his joints to dust, using his own program.

Look, no one is saying that SS doesn’t get you strong.

However, from a physique or even bulking perspective, it’s a god awful program.

Throw GOMAD in the mix and you may as well book a 12 week block at your local WeightWatchers class once you’ve ‘bulked’ your way into obesity.

GOMAD is so stupid. For every Eric Buganhagen, you’ve got 50 neckbeards wondering why the fuck their bellies are getting bigger when they were told they would be muscular gods, once they started drinking all that milk.


If you want to get strong and fat then by all means, do SS.

If you want to get ripped and jacked, then a PPL split, focusing on high intensity techniques eg drop sets, eccentrics, rest pause is the way to go.

Throw a 250-500kcal surplus into the mix and you will ‘bulk’ up as well with less chance of becoming a fat fuck.

I'm not doubting that cables, machines, crossfit etc. works well for other people. All I was trying to say in my previous post was that as a serious ectomorph, I haven't made any serious progress until I started Rippetoe's program. I'm just under 150 lbs right now and I'm maxing out my bench at like 180ish which isn't super good, but I feel it is decent for my size.

Also not sure why those guys in the photos did GOMAD because neither one was an ectomorph, except the guy on the right kind of looked a little skinny fat.

Romans 8:18-21

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10-12-2019 03:30 PM
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H1N1 Offline
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Post: #4952
RE: Lifter's Lounge
(10-12-2019 03:30 PM)Vasily Zaytsev Wrote:  
(10-12-2019 05:37 AM)Irn Bru Protein Wrote:  Rippetoe is an injured old man because he’s likely ground his joints to dust, using his own program.

Look, no one is saying that SS doesn’t get you strong.

However, from a physique or even bulking perspective, it’s a god awful program.

Throw GOMAD in the mix and you may as well book a 12 week block at your local WeightWatchers class once you’ve ‘bulked’ your way into obesity.

GOMAD is so stupid. For every Eric Buganhagen, you’ve got 50 neckbeards wondering why the fuck their bellies are getting bigger when they were told they would be muscular gods, once they started drinking all that milk.


If you want to get strong and fat then by all means, do SS.

If you want to get ripped and jacked, then a PPL split, focusing on high intensity techniques eg drop sets, eccentrics, rest pause is the way to go.

Throw a 250-500kcal surplus into the mix and you will ‘bulk’ up as well with less chance of becoming a fat fuck.

I'm not doubting that cables, machines, crossfit etc. works well for other people. All I was trying to say in my previous post was that as a serious ectomorph, I haven't made any serious progress until I started Rippetoe's program. I'm just under 150 lbs right now and I'm maxing out my bench at like 180ish which isn't super good, but I feel it is decent for my size.

Also not sure why those guys in the photos did GOMAD because neither one was an ectomorph, except the guy on the right kind of looked a little skinny fat.

Personally I think a lot of guys, new lifters and more experienced ones alike, kid themselves on what constitutes real progress. You can give yourself the impression of a lot of progress in a short period of time by eating excessive amounts of food. The weights you are lifting will go up, you will get bigger and softer around the middle, until some point where you have to cut quite a significant amount of body fat.

If you are truly an ectomorph, then a 1.2x bw bench press is quite a significant lift. Particularly in a short space of time. For someone who should have small bones, small joints, and narrow shoulders - despite the claims of internet coaches - benching significantly more than your bodyweight with perfect form, naturally, is a not-inconsiderable feat.

Most likely, you will find you are too fat or too injured before very long to keep making progress. You will either end up cutting bodyfat or spending significant chunks of time out of the gym through injury. If it's the former, then as a natural lifter with a real-world job, chances are your diet will be less than perfect for maintaining muscle in a deficit. Consequently, you will probably lose most of what ever size and strength you feel you've gained. What comes on seemingly impossibly quickly, will go away with equal rapidity. If you are injured, you may also end up finding your appetite remains high, and you are not doing the exercise to slow the rate of fat gain.

The reality is that, short of anabolic supplementation, meaningful and lasting results will take a long time to come. They can be achieved just as easily with a diet at maintenance as they can on a huge surplus. In fact, they are likely to be better, because you can make nice smooth progress, rather than bouncing from extremes trying to make peace between bulking and cutting cycles.

Higher reps, moderate weight, perfect form, a balanced and moderate diet full of good fats and sufficient protein will get you as far as you can go in a similar (if not superior) time frame to endless bulking and cutting - particularly if you are not training for specific competition.
10-19-2019 08:13 AM
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MichaelWitcoff Offline
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Post: #4953
RE: Lifter's Lounge
Over the last few years I’ve noticed a drastic difference in the way exercise affects my body. Working twice as hard for less than half the results. Got my T levels checked on Thursday and found out they’ve gone down 34% over the last couple years, despite my being otherwise healthier than ever before in my life - no drugs, no smoking, minimal alcohol intake, decent diet, etc. I’m starting to think hormones matter more than any other specific factor when it comes to lifting.

Jewish convert to Orthodox Christianity and best-selling author of "On The Masons And Their Lies."
10-19-2019 06:13 PM
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Lazuli Waves Offline
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Post: #4954
RE: Lifter's Lounge
Are these lowered priced leg machines any good? home.

   

https://www.amazon.com/Marcy-Adjustable-...103&sr=8-1

I'm not trying to look like body-builder, but want to improve my legs at home.
(This post was last modified: 10-19-2019 06:42 PM by Lazuli Waves.)
10-19-2019 06:38 PM
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Repo Online
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Post: #4955
RE: Lifter's Lounge
^^^ You would be better off grabbing dumbells and doing various lunge variations
10-19-2019 06:45 PM
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Lazuli Waves Offline
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Post: #4956
RE: Lifter's Lounge
Thanks. I had previously been doing these (I don't own a bench):





I tried lunges this morning. I like the feeling of trying a new exercise.
10-20-2019 12:40 PM
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Irn Bru Protein Offline
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Post: #4957
RE: Lifter's Lounge
Great post H1N1
10-29-2019 01:01 AM
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H1N1 Offline
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Post: #4958
RE: Lifter's Lounge
Had a great session last night. Deadlifted with a barbell for the first time in over a year, and pulled 400lbs for 10 reps at a bodyweight of 191lbs, straps no belt. That's a rep PR for me.

I haven't deadlifted anything heavier than a pair of 110lbs dumbells all year, and haven't squatted with more than 260lbs.

For the best part of the last year, I have really been focusing on using lighter weights, and getting more out of them. An example that I've mentioned before is doing pause squats, all the way to the very bottom, with very strict form.

I've also been training less than I was previously. A focus on quality of movement, and higher reps with lighter weight, has kept me injury free for 12 months. My strength has developed well beyond what I could reasonably have expected, based on previous years training journals, where I was training more, and using much heavier weights.
11-01-2019 02:09 AM
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scorpion Offline
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Post: #4959
RE: Lifter's Lounge
Impressive, H1N1. Care go to into more detail on your routine? How many days per week? How are you balancing volume, frequency and intensity? Specific exercises, rep ranges, etc...

"For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.” - Romans 8:18
11-01-2019 10:56 AM
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GreenHills Offline
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Post: #4960
RE: Lifter's Lounge
H1N1, how do you define lasting progress? Do you mean that certain training methods are more resilient to pauses or less frequent training?
11-02-2019 04:08 PM
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H1N1 Offline
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Post: #4961
RE: Lifter's Lounge
(11-02-2019 04:08 PM)GreenHills Wrote:  H1N1, how do you define lasting progress? Do you mean that certain training methods are more resilient to pauses or less frequent training?

Yes and no. I don't think there is some kind of magic training routine or anything like that, but progress in moderate rep ranges achieved over time with the basic compound lifts is the progress that is most resilient to breaks in training and major life stress.

I don't personally feel that you should see any kind of significant strength drop off after a few weeks, or even a few months out of the gym. A modest reduction is likely, due to rustiness when it comes to the skill itself, but the strength and muscularity you've built, if you have done it properly, should be enduring. You should still be within a kind of band of strength. The idea that you go from strong guy to weak as a kitten in the space of a few months, or even a few years, strikes me as obvious nonsense if you have taken a sensible approach to lifting.
11-03-2019 04:57 AM
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H1N1 Offline
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Post: #4962
RE: Lifter's Lounge
(11-01-2019 10:56 AM)scorpion Wrote:  Impressive, H1N1. Care go to into more detail on your routine? How many days per week? How are you balancing volume, frequency and intensity? Specific exercises, rep ranges, etc...

Happy to, though I am afraid someone with your level of experience will find little new insight in it. I've gone into detail in case it is useful to other people reading.

A key factor has been training less, and getting comfortable with my hierarchy of training priorities. So with that in mind, here's my thinking:

I have a clear idea of what I am training for, and the relative importance of each facet of my training.

I train firstly for systemic health, secondly for athleticism and physical performance, and thirdly for aesthetics.

Health for me means:

1. Optimal hormonal function/response as a result of my training
2. Freedom from injury
3. The ability to main perfect form under load through the greatest possible range of motion

Athleticism and physical performance for me means:

1. Working my entire body, or a significant chunk of it, as a unit
2. A relatively high level strength to weight ratio
3. A good level of general purpose conditioning

For me, it's important to be able to manipulate my body and other people's bodies through space, and to apply myself to relatively demanding and perhaps unfamiliar real-world physical tasks requiring some combination of strength and coordination, without compromising myself through injury.


Aesthetics for me is not quite as strict a concept as it would be for a bodybuilder. I use this concept in my training to cover movements that either:

1. Isolate muscles to increase strength and size in a way that supports lifts that target my two primary goals
2. Build mass in what I see as key body parts. It can be for visual effect primarily, but a movement still has to pass points 1&2 in my hierarchy to be considered. This is obviously subjective judgement, but I'll try to provide rationals as I outline my training.


So putting it all together, here's what a typical training week looks like for me at the moment. I try to approach my programming my having a movement that is mainly:

Day 1:

1. Rock bottom pause squats (3 second pause) 2x6-8
- I do quite a lot of working up to these two top sets, so I get a lot of sub max volume on the way up.
- I've been playing around with low volume, and honestly I find this is what leaves me feeling best and building strength.
- I also naturally have legs that grow very easily. I was doing 4 sets of these, but I found my legs were just blowing up, and I outgrew all my trousers in a 6 week cycle. 2x6-8 is a sweet spot for me personally as I'm not especially interested in adding more leg mass.
- Pause squats, for me, meet all 3 of my goals in hierarchical order.
-Health: They are great for my hormone production and libido, I am able to manipulate a reasonable load all the way down until my ass is on my heels, and there is no better exercise for the strength and stability of the entire central structural core.
-Athleticism: Great for power generation, full body strength and stability, sprint speed, everything.
-Aesthetics: We've all seen the guys who only train upper body, and it looks ridiculous to have little skinny legs and a well developed upper body.

2. Hyperextensions (weighted) 3x20
- Again, I will do a couple of warm up sets. I'm a big believer, even when you are warmed up, in doing sub max work before your work sets, to really set the movement pattern and ingrain good form.
- Another movement that ticks all the health, athleticism and aesthetics boxes.
-Health: Your lower back can never be too strong or stable. I find squats build the main strength there, and the hypers are to put some blood through and build up its resilience.
-Athleticism: The lower back is one of the key foundations for all applications of non-gym strength, and a key point of failure in your kinetic chain.
-Aesthetics: A well developed low back is usually noticeable by its absence, even on an otherwise well developed and lean physique. It is one of those muscle groups, like the traps, that gives a real power look (when they can be seen obviously)

3. Grip work - 4 movements, 2 sets of 10 reps of each, done in a circuit.
- Your hands are such an important part of your body. Working them through rotation, extension, and flexion is critical in my opinion.
- Again, this meets all 3 of my criteria.
-Health: maintaining dexterity in your hands is really important. With so many small bones, and being so easily injured, it is critical to avoid injury in the hands. I see so many people with arthritic hands, and it is such a debilitating place to carry a weakness. Because you use them so much, any injury or degenerative condition like arthritis in them is just grim.
-Athleticism: Your hands are your first point of contact with an external load or person, and the strength you have in them usually dictates, or plays a crucial role in, how that struggle will go.
-Aesthetics: Muscular forearms look good.

This is it for Day 1. If I only have time to train one day in a week, this is the day I will do.


Day 2:

1. Weighted Chins 2x6-8
- The upper body squat. No straps. Full range of motion, all the way to a dead hang. 2-3 warm up sets, not too much rest between sets.
-Health: Another great one for your hormone production and structural health. Strong back gives good posture.
-Athleticism: Probably the most important exercise for your ability to manipulate your own bodyweight in space. Really 'functional', and requires a good degree of coordination to do with control through a full range of motion.
-Aesthetics: The best back builder there is for width

2. DB incline Press 2x8-10
- Again, I do a lot of warm up sets/ramping, so I get plenty of submax volume.
- Health: plenty of big muscle groups involved, good for hormone production, etc
- Athleticism: I don't actually feel incline is that directly useful for athleticism, but enough big muscles are used that it has crossover. Having depth in your torso/upper body mass generally is obviously good for building a solid platform for applying strength from.
- Aesthetics: Good chest development just looks nice.

3. Low to high cable flies 2x8-10
- I only do one warm up for these, as they are almost a distraction from my main work. I don't feel they have a big health or athleticism benefit, beyond the platform building, but their aesthetic effect is undeniable and the recovery required from performing the movement is fairly minimal given the weights involved, so they are on that I feel on balance merit being included, and simply performed quickly after the incline for a good pump. I don't really chase progression with these.


4. Y cable crossovers supersetted with lateral raises 2x10 (each)
- I do high volume sets to warm up to my working weight, so I already have a good pump when I start.
-Health: Shoulders are a vulnerability for me, mine are easily injured, and so increased musculature here is actually primarily a health objective in my training. These work the shoulders through an awesome range of motion, feel great, and work the entire musculature of the shoulder. The cables keep constant tension on the muscle, and this allows you to build strength and stability through a very substantial range of motion, safely, on a difficult joint.
-Athleticism: Again, more of an indirect effect, in building the platform from which to demonstrate and apply strength.
-Aesthetics: Good shoulders look good, and give that powerful and athletic look to a physique, particularly if, as in my case, you do not have especially wide shoulders naturally.

5. Strict press 1 x 6-8
- I ramp up to this, usually running the rack. I work up to a top set fairly quickly with minimal rest.
- I have a fairly strong strict press (I can clean and strict press at least 190lbs). The pre fatigue from the cable work, plus running the rack, lets me use much lighter weights than I would otherwise need to.
-Health: Overhead work with good form is a great movement for postural integrity, and one of the key moves. Personally I find it takes quite a toll on me to lift heavy loads overhead, particularly on my wrists and shoulders, especially after a lot of years of boxing. So I put this lift here to still get the health and hormonal benefits from it, but to allow me to use much lighter weights. By doing so I've been able to avoid the shoulder and wrist pains that I used to get when OHP was a primary focus of my training.
-Athleticism: I consider overhead press one of the three primary athletic lifts, along with the squat and chinup. Great for every muscle in the body, and builds both strength and coordination. Teaches all your muscles how to fire, both for strength and stability.
-Aesthetics: I don't think OHP is actually a great shoulder builder, at least not for me. I had relatively modest shoulders when I first OHP'd my bodyweight.

6. Tricep pulldowns 4x8 30s rest
- Mainly aesthetic, but low recovery threshold, and supports all the main upper body pressing lifts. I find the rope pull downs to be far and away the most comfortable form of tricep exercise on the elbows.



Day 3:

1. Rack pulls 2x6-8
- My favourite move in the gym by far. I use straps so I can lift heavy weights.
-Health: I like to believe these have a great effect on your hormone production, just because it's a beast of a lift if nothing else.
-Athleticism: For full body strength and stability, I see this as a core exercise. For building back strength and stability all the way through, it is a fantastic movement.
-Aesthetics: For me these are a really great mass builder.

2. Bodyweight chins 3 x 1 rep short of failure (15-20)
- No Straps, high reps.

3. Incline DB 2x6-8

4. Low to high cable flies 2x8-10

5. Y cable crossovers supersetted with lateral raises 2x10 (each)

6. OHP 1x6-8

7. Face away cable curls 3x8


Day 4 (Conditioning and athleticism day):

15 mins jump rope to warm up
4x10 (each side) DB Snatch
- A great lift for power and coordination.
4x20 DB swings
- Good to get the heart rate up, and a little volume for the hams and hips
Grip work - 4 movements, 2 sets of 10 reps of each, done in a circuit.
30s sprint, 30s active rest on the rowing machine for 10 sets.

I find doing my conditioning like this allows for some development of power and coordination (snatches and swings) while limiting wear and tear on the joints compared to stuff like running.

That's how I train currently. I find it lets me progress on the main lifts I like for strength: Squats, presses, and chins, while minimising the weights I need to use, and minimising the stress on my joints and recovery.

I do find, with the weights I'm able to lift now, that if I go too hard on too many big compound moves, I can over tax my system and spend the next day feeling really rough (headaches, nausea etc). That's why the sets are a little lower, the reps a little higher, and there is probably a little more cable work than I would have used historically.

To add a point of clarification on my earlier post, I swap rack pulls and dumbbell deadlifts in the program on a 4 week block, basically.

I rarely get the chance to run the program for more than about 5 weeks before travel forces me to take a week of lifting, and I tend to just treat this as recovery time.
(This post was last modified: 11-03-2019 08:55 AM by H1N1.)
11-03-2019 08:25 AM
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scorpion Offline
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Post: #4963
RE: Lifter's Lounge
Great writeup. It's always interesting to see what is working for other guys, especially if you've found something that gives great results while also being easier on the body (this should be important for everyone reading, especially as we're all getting older). It's surprising how little volume you get away with on squats and deadlifts/rack pulls. That tells me that you're getting a lot of mileage out of those long pause squats from so much time under tension. I'll probably start playing with that variable more. It's something that the classic bodybuilders all understood very well but that most of us have gotten away from in pursuit of just trying to move as much weight as possible.

"For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.” - Romans 8:18
11-03-2019 11:39 AM
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Irn Bru Protein Offline
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Post: #4964
RE: Lifter's Lounge
I gave up on volume a long time ago. Chasing that number resulted in sub par workouts. No intensity. Just set upon set of junk Reps.

What’s the point?

An hour long warm up.

It was until I went into the pain zone. That’s when I started to lean the fuck out and put on even more muscle.

Lighter weight but burning that muscle out.

15+reps with the intention of increasing the effectiveness of every single one.
11-03-2019 11:55 AM
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Post: #4965
RE: Lifter's Lounge
(11-03-2019 11:39 AM)scorpion Wrote:  Great writeup. It's always interesting to see what is working for other guys, especially if you've found something that gives great results while also being easier on the body (this should be important for everyone reading, especially as we're all getting older). It's surprising how little volume you get away with on squats and deadlifts/rack pulls. That tells me that you're getting a lot of mileage out of those long pause squats from so much time under tension. I'll probably start playing with that variable more. It's something that the classic bodybuilders all understood very well but that most of us have gotten away from in pursuit of just trying to move as much weight as possible.

I'm pleased it was interesting.

I guess I am at a point in my training where I've been pretty consistent for 12 years, and can get away with less. I also naturally a decent deadlifter and squatter, and naturally a very mediocre presser.

I only really have to think about squats to make gains, whereas it took me more than a decade of having it as a specific goal to press my bodyweight.

That said, I do think you are right to cite time under tension as an important variable. Doing 2 long pause sets with 260lbs for 6-8 reps each time, where each rep touches ass to heal, is a pretty good training stimulus. Maybe I would get more from a 3rd set, but at this weight I actually feel like extra work would add fatigue for negligible gain. I should add the caveat that for me, now, adding weight to my squat is not a priority. I wouldn't like my legs to be any larger, and my strength is pretty reasonable for a natural trainee with fair but unremarkable genes for moving barbells.

One of the big things I would hypothesise, from my experience, is that people (natural trainees at least) either fall into a volume camp or an intensity camp.

I've found I've responded differently to Irn Bru above - I used to get burned out by that kind of training. Training like this I have been able to be consistent, push my top sets, get quality work in on the way up to them, and avoid injury. Good form is an important variable for me in making muscular gains, more so than it is for other people I know, who can get away with more body english to lift more weight.

The more I train, the more I think it is very difficult to give cookie cutter advice to people. The movements I've mentioned are ones I have also found are very well suited to my particular body. For whatever reason, I've never been able to get much change out of front squats. Some people find deadlifts a great mass builder, I find them pretty hopeless. A lot of people swear by barbell bench, flat bench, etc - all as good as useless for me.

I don't recommend my training necessarily, at this point, but I have found that for me less is more - certainly at this point in my lifting life.
(This post was last modified: 11-03-2019 12:23 PM by H1N1.)
11-03-2019 12:15 PM
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Zagor Offline
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Post: #4966
RE: Lifter's Lounge
I swear by speed triples for building size and strength. You take a weight you can move 5 or 6 times relatively comfortably and you do 10 sets of three reps with thet weigth, explosively and with impeccable form, three times a week. You can do this with any of your big exercises. Over the week you accumulate for example 90 relatively heavy, fast and perfectly executed bench press reps. I tell you strenght and size gains from this are amazing.
11-07-2019 03:47 AM
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Post: #4967
RE: Lifter's Lounge
I have stumbled upon this vid. Anyone heard about grease the groove before (GTG)?




My thoughts are my deeds, my deeds are my words, my words are my habits.
(This post was last modified: 11-07-2019 05:17 AM by Ruslan.)
11-07-2019 05:16 AM
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Irn Bru Protein Offline
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Post: #4968
RE: Lifter's Lounge
That’s a bold claim Zagor

I’ve never seen anyone build size doing triples, especially with a 5-8 rep max.

Oly/Powerlifters generally work in that range and even then, they gain size doing accessory work which tends to be higher rep.

I’m not saying it can’t be done however your previous regime must have been about as stimulating as an Iconclast post
11-07-2019 08:10 AM
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Irn Bru Protein Offline
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Post: #4969
RE: Lifter's Lounge
I’ve been playing with a push pull split over 3 days

Seeing great progress

Basically working up to a 8-12 rep max

Once I hit 12 reps then I up the weight in the next session.

And it’s struggling like fuck to hit that 8-12.

None of this banging out 12 then hitting the shower.

Total failure

———————-/

Day 1.

Squat variation

DB Row

DB Bench Press

Chins

Floor press

———————-/

Day 2

RDL

Weighted Dips

Chins

Smith Bent Over Row

DB Floor Press

—————————-

Work up to 8-12 reps

Only go to failure on last set

Keep a log on the last sets and beat your numbers.

Focus on REP PRs.

Not strength PRs
11-10-2019 04:24 PM
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