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The Unabomber thread
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ilostabet Offline
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Post: #51
RE: The Unabomber Manifesto - Industrial society and it's future
I actually think modern technology and its dangers are topics that are both aggressively ignored and deeply in need of attention.

Maybe you can ask the Mods to change the title of that original thread to Dangers of Modern Tech Thread or something, because it has already valuable posts about Ted and his works, but perhaps it's better to make it more broad as there are many authors worth of note in this sphere (Ellul and Postman off the top of my head).

Ted's most original contribution is not the analysis of technological society itself, but the specific phenomenon of the 'leftist activist' that arises from it. But from my own interactions here, the dangers of modern technology are not taken that seriously by most here (yet).

Don't call it a grave, it's the future you chose.
08-29-2019 03:29 AM
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Simeon_Strangelight Offline
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Post: #52
RE: The Unabomber Manifesto - Industrial society and it's future
The entire Unabomber story reeks of false flag and is substantiated by scores of data. Obviously the manifesto is logical, because by association making logical counter-arguments to the current insanity discredits those arguments.
08-29-2019 04:10 AM
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ilostabet Offline
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Post: #53
RE: The Unabomber Manifesto - Industrial society and it's future
(08-29-2019 04:10 AM)Simeon_Strangelight Wrote:  The entire Unabomber story reeks of false flag and is substantiated by scores of data. Obviously the manifesto is logical, because by association making logical counter-arguments to the current insanity discredits those arguments.

Can you elaborate?

Don't call it a grave, it's the future you chose.
08-29-2019 04:28 AM
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kazz Offline
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Post: #54
RE: The Unabomber Manifesto - Industrial society and it's future
(08-29-2019 03:29 AM)ilostabet Wrote:  I actually think modern technology and its dangers are topics that are both aggressively ignored and deeply in need of attention.

Maybe you can ask the Mods to change the title of that original thread to Dangers of Modern Tech Thread or something, because it has already valuable posts about Ted and his works, but perhaps it's better to make it more broad as there are many authors worth of note in this sphere (Ellul and Postman off the top of my head).

Ted's most original contribution is not the analysis of technological society itself, but the specific phenomenon of the 'leftist activist' that arises from it. But from my own interactions here, the dangers of modern technology are not taken that seriously by most here (yet).



I have been thinking about this a bit over the past 5 years or so with the rise of internet influence on things. The world is incredibly complex, this creates jobs and spending/buying etc. But it seems like a house of cards.
08-29-2019 07:26 AM
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questor70 Offline
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Post: #55
RE: The Unabomber Manifesto - Industrial society and it's future
I've gone down this rabbit hole. Some links for further reading:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-primitivism
https://www.amazon.com/Ishmael-Novel-Dan...0553375407
https://www.johnzerzan.net/
https://medium.com/united-green-alliance...ccc21986f7

I think the entire argument rests on a single thesis, which is civilization as the root of all evil, and civilization being defined as the agricultural revolution onward. Civilization is defined as a meme that arose seemingly external to human nature and imposed on us in an oppressor/oppressed fashion. In this respect, this narrative tends to appeal to the left (seemingly in opposition to the manifesto section about the left).

If you were to summarize all of this down into a slogan it would be "the noble savage". It is an idealization of our pre-agricultural past best illustrated in Pocahontas (just muse over how SJW-style holier-than-thou and accusatory Colors of the Wind is) or Avatar and the pending sequels. This is an attractive proposition as it is the deepest form of nostalgia you can possibly evoke. To get back to the garden, so to speak. But it is a flawed theory.

Nature has shown itself to be ultimately amoral, not utopian. Tribal societies were violent, perhaps not so much within the tribe, but certainly between tribes. Even chimps engage in the same sort of low-level warfare of tribal bands. And for you red-pillers out there, simple one-on-one competition for mates is hardly limited to homo-sapiens. Also, many native groups were in fact agriculturalists too, blurring the line between hunter-gatherer and civilized.

So I just don't think we can put the genie back in the bottle. What we've wrought as a species reflects who we are in the aggregate rather than it being some delusion we've somehow been brainwashed into believing.

We seek short-term comfort and pleasure and embrace the cheapest, laziest approach to getting it.

No amount of letter-bombing or other extremism will change that.
(This post was last modified: 08-29-2019 12:12 PM by questor70.)
08-29-2019 12:06 PM
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Post: #56
RE: The Unabomber Manifesto - Industrial society and it's future
(08-29-2019 04:28 AM)ilostabet Wrote:  
(08-29-2019 04:10 AM)Simeon_Strangelight Wrote:  The entire Unabomber story reeks of false flag and is substantiated by scores of data. Obviously the manifesto is logical, because by association making logical counter-arguments to the current insanity discredits those arguments.

Can you elaborate?

The idea being that by having those logical positions and arguments associated with a "psychopath" such as Kaczynski they will lose credibility / value by contamination

[Image: 220px-Theodore_Kaczynski_2.jpg]

What "normal" person would read much less agree with what this "nutjob" has to say ?

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(This post was last modified: 08-29-2019 01:27 PM by PapayaTapper.)
08-29-2019 01:26 PM
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BBinger Offline
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Post: #57
RE: The Unabomber thread
(08-29-2019 01:26 PM)PapayaTapper Wrote:  
(08-29-2019 04:28 AM)ilostabet Wrote:  
(08-29-2019 04:10 AM)Simeon_Strangelight Wrote:  The entire Unabomber story reeks of false flag and is substantiated by scores of data. Obviously the manifesto is logical, because by association making logical counter-arguments to the current insanity discredits those arguments.

Can you elaborate?

The idea being that by having those logical positions and arguments associated with a "psychopath" such as Kaczynski they will lose credibility / value by contamination

[Image: 220px-Theodore_Kaczynski_2.jpg]

What "normal" person would read much less agree with what this "nutjob" has to say ?

During his trial the DOJ tried, and tried, and tried repeatedly to get the Dr. Kaczynski declared insane and forcibly medicated. They apparently did this for the social value of marginalizing him as a whackjob.

The man managed to get his writing out to the masses before the internet took off. With a minimum of casualties, the mathematics Phd managed to make all of the major US papers his bitch.

Now after 9-11-2001, the situation reads differently because "muh terrorists" and such. Nevermind that during the 1960's and 1970's Obama's mentors were exploding more ordinance inside US borders than "the muslims" ever managed to. Quite a few of the 60's and 70's left leaning domestic terrorists have cushy University tenured gigs...

It's hard for me to imagine two countries more different than the US in 1985 and the US a mere 20 years later in 2005.
08-29-2019 07:04 PM
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Kid Twist Offline
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Post: #58
RE: The Unabomber thread
I have said this in the past, Theodore had invaluable insights at times, but his lack of faith in greater things was his downfall. Understanding that suffering virtuously is the greatest of all achievements is something he couldn't grasp, because he weighted everything to the material, and far too much.

With all of his talents he could have gone through the same or even less suffering, and enlightened far more people, but he didn't want to cooperate with God. I pray that he will come to this knowledge. Perhaps he already has; this I do not know.

There is more than just "this" life.

Get your passport ready!
08-29-2019 07:09 PM
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MusicForThePiano Offline
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Post: #59
RE: The Unabomber thread
This was also an earlier move to discredit those who would question technology. Go read books on computers and programming languages and the gateway to the computer age, you will understand that there was a huge push for this "progress" and "advancement" by technocrats whose progeny are holding the reins today, when we were doing just fine in the steampunk days.

Many computer experts believed in building a "tower of babylon" similar to the one from biblical lore. They partially succeeded.

Everything is set up to take a fall so that power is consolidated in the hands of a few and the rest are controlled. This is why its important to stay at least ten steps ahead of modern day software / hardware. Ted was an MK Ultra expendable, and he was used for a great purpose: to discredit those who would question the rising surge of technological invasions.

Now we all have dumbphones and lethal smart meters and all our lives are in this spider's web of the cloud (well most of ours are). Hegelian Dialectics to the nth degree.
(This post was last modified: 08-30-2019 12:39 AM by MusicForThePiano.)
08-30-2019 12:38 AM
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renotime Offline
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RE: The Unabomber thread
(08-10-2016 10:22 AM)defguy Wrote:  All speculation of course but I think he was so socially aware with his 200+ IQ that he realized no one would take him serious unless he did something drastic... Look at how many people have read Mein Kampf and various other stories written by or about Notorious Criminals. A small part of me thinks with his genius IQ he could have figured a way to spread his message without resorting to drastic measures but I have trouble wrapping my head around how... Now we live in a different time with Social Media, the next "unabomber" could be a social media demagogue.

He had an IQ of 167, putting him slightly higher than the likes of Jobs, Zuckerberg, and Gates.

The guy was given every chance to succeed, getting into Harvard as a teenager with a full ride. Even now his writing is still well received in academic circles. He could have made something of himself without blowing up people, and he actually did before he ran off into the woods.

My grandfather had an IQ of 170. When he was in the military he'd take planes apart and put them back together and he had no training in this at all.
He ended up living his last days in a trailer near the beach with a 2nd wife that was 30 years younger.

IQ will certainly give you a leg up in the world, but it's no guarantee you'll end up with a mansion in the hills.

You want to know the only thing you can assume about a broken down old man? It's that he's a survivor.
08-30-2019 10:33 AM
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infowarrior1 Offline
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Post: #61
RE: The Unabomber thread
@renotime

Hi IQ in many cases results in superspecialization. Those kinds of people need to be cared for or else they end up what you describe as. Then they can do many great things. Like how the academic institution that hosted Isaac Newton helped him immensely in allowing him room to focus on his work.

Even Nikola Tesla died peniless in a dead end life since there isnt a group that took care of his needs. Ensuing he went off the deep end.
09-01-2019 05:22 AM
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BigFellow Offline
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Post: #62
RE: The Unabomber thread
(08-30-2019 10:33 AM)renotime Wrote:  
(08-10-2016 10:22 AM)defguy Wrote:  All speculation of course but I think he was so socially aware with his 200+ IQ that he realized no one would take him serious unless he did something drastic... Look at how many people have read Mein Kampf and various other stories written by or about Notorious Criminals. A small part of me thinks with his genius IQ he could have figured a way to spread his message without resorting to drastic measures but I have trouble wrapping my head around how... Now we live in a different time with Social Media, the next "unabomber" could be a social media demagogue.

He had an IQ of 167, putting him slightly higher than the likes of Jobs, Zuckerberg, and Gates.

The guy was given every chance to succeed, getting into Harvard as a teenager with a full ride. Even now his writing is still well received in academic circles. He could have made something of himself without blowing up people, and he actually did before he ran off into the woods.

My grandfather had an IQ of 170. When he was in the military he'd take planes apart and put them back together and he had no training in this at all.
He ended up living his last days in a trailer near the beach with a 2nd wife that was 30 years younger.

IQ will certainly give you a leg up in the world, but it's no guarantee you'll end up with a mansion in the hills.

Your grandfather lived near the beach with a wife who was 30 years younger? Sounds like he had it made.
09-01-2019 04:26 PM
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VNvet Offline
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Post: #63
RE: The Unabomber thread
(08-30-2019 12:38 AM)MusicForThePiano Wrote:  This was also an earlier move to discredit those who would question technology. Go read books on computers and programming languages and the gateway to the computer age, you will understand that there was a huge push for this "progress" and "advancement" by technocrats whose progeny are holding the reins today, when we were doing just fine in the steampunk days.

Many computer experts believed in building a "tower of babylon" similar to the one from biblical lore. They partially succeeded.

Everything is set up to take a fall so that power is consolidated in the hands of a few and the rest are controlled. This is why its important to stay at least ten steps ahead of modern day software / hardware. Ted was an MK Ultra expendable, and he was used for a great purpose: to discredit those who would question the rising surge of technological invasions.

Now we all have dumbphones and lethal smart meters and all our lives are in this spider's web of the cloud (well most of ours are). Hegelian Dialectics to the nth degree.

So you're saying that Ted was an MK Ultra operation?

I kind of believe it. It seems unlikely that he'd flunk out of MK Ultra, and then do an operation that benefits the elite agenda.
09-01-2019 05:47 PM
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Simeon_Strangelight Offline
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Post: #64
RE: The Unabomber thread
(08-30-2019 10:33 AM)renotime Wrote:  
(08-10-2016 10:22 AM)defguy Wrote:  All speculation of course but I think he was so socially aware with his 200+ IQ that he realized no one would take him serious unless he did something drastic... Look at how many people have read Mein Kampf and various other stories written by or about Notorious Criminals. A small part of me thinks with his genius IQ he could have figured a way to spread his message without resorting to drastic measures but I have trouble wrapping my head around how... Now we live in a different time with Social Media, the next "unabomber" could be a social media demagogue.

He had an IQ of 167, putting him slightly higher than the likes of Jobs, Zuckerberg, and Gates.

The guy was given every chance to succeed, getting into Harvard as a teenager with a full ride. Even now his writing is still well received in academic circles. He could have made something of himself without blowing up people, and he actually did before he ran off into the woods.

My grandfather had an IQ of 170. When he was in the military he'd take planes apart and put them back together and he had no training in this at all.
He ended up living his last days in a trailer near the beach with a 2nd wife that was 30 years younger.

IQ will certainly give you a leg up in the world, but it's no guarantee you'll end up with a mansion in the hills.

Actually IQ is correlated positively to financial success up to the high 120s. From the 130s onwards it actually goes down in terms of lifetime financial success.

There are probably a few reasons for that - lack of communication with others, lack of real challenge within the corporate world or even in jobs like a lawyer or doctor, difference in personality structures - probably also a form of experimentation of nature. The ones who obviously use their talents in that range well - they achieve greatness, but on average the 128 IQ guy becomes a CEO, producer, successful MD at a greater percentage than his 148 IQ counterpart.
(This post was last modified: 09-02-2019 01:51 AM by Simeon_Strangelight.)
09-02-2019 01:51 AM
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Post: #65
RE: The Unabomber thread
I remember Christian McQueen was always talking about how most millionaires are average IQ. His conclusion was "anyone can make it", intelligence doesn't matter much, etc.

It was fascinating to me because I came to a more obvious conclusion.
09-02-2019 02:38 AM
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Simeon_Strangelight Offline
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Post: #66
RE: The Unabomber thread
According to some studies the average self-made millionaire in the business world and even deca-millionaire has an IQ of around 112.

But don't think that IQ does not matter - the average homeless was around 80.

So 112 is somewhat above average, but not too far off. Also the financial results on average still go up to 128/129, because most people who change their socio-economic level do so via high-paid jobs and not via businesses that net them millions. The easy safe way to become a single-digit millionaire is to become a doctor, lawyer and qualified accountent, then work for decades.
09-02-2019 02:46 AM
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iThinkThereforeIam Offline
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Post: #67
RE: The Unabomber thread
IQ alone doesn't mean much but race matters a lot as well.

As a tinfoiler I even think it's an elite abstraction so autist IQ whites mix with north east asians (mainly Chinese) so only dumb whites are left and the kids - if any - are Eliot Rodger types who think pure looks without game would help him get laid.

Singapore and Hong Kong allegedly have the highest IQs but in practice they are human calculator types or super conniving with no values beyond money.

Cantonese people have a tiny percent super rich people while everybody else is squeezed for every shekel working 12h days 6 days a week.

Cantonese women are highly aggressive and manipulative - prone to none stop verbal abuse.

Their likeliness of being altruistic in any form or fashion is pretty low.

High levels of psychopathy among cantonese people as well (lots of white collar criminals) and generally unpleasant people that create dysfunctional places without white guidance.

Business success relies on appearing trustworthy, relatable and spitting good verbal game. Above a certain IQ you don't share interests with average people, are too autist to be relatable and don't come across as warm and friendly - all things that will work against you.

You will also need to be able to manage people effectively. Only if you join at the very top of a large organization you might be able to get away with being somewhat unrelateable to regular folks as an IQ pyramid is already in place where mid managers have lower and lower IQs, all the way down to those who manage blue collar laborers.

https://bigthink.com/philip-perry/why-hi...st-leaders

https://w.timothy-judge.com/Leader%20IQ-...lished.pdf
(This post was last modified: 09-02-2019 06:49 AM by iThinkThereforeIam.)
09-02-2019 06:46 AM
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renotime Offline
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Post: #68
RE: The Unabomber thread
(09-01-2019 04:26 PM)BigFellow Wrote:  
(08-30-2019 10:33 AM)renotime Wrote:  
(08-10-2016 10:22 AM)defguy Wrote:  All speculation of course but I think he was so socially aware with his 200+ IQ that he realized no one would take him serious unless he did something drastic... Look at how many people have read Mein Kampf and various other stories written by or about Notorious Criminals. A small part of me thinks with his genius IQ he could have figured a way to spread his message without resorting to drastic measures but I have trouble wrapping my head around how... Now we live in a different time with Social Media, the next "unabomber" could be a social media demagogue.

He had an IQ of 167, putting him slightly higher than the likes of Jobs, Zuckerberg, and Gates.

The guy was given every chance to succeed, getting into Harvard as a teenager with a full ride. Even now his writing is still well received in academic circles. He could have made something of himself without blowing up people, and he actually did before he ran off into the woods.

My grandfather had an IQ of 170. When he was in the military he'd take planes apart and put them back together and he had no training in this at all.
He ended up living his last days in a trailer near the beach with a 2nd wife that was 30 years younger.

IQ will certainly give you a leg up in the world, but it's no guarantee you'll end up with a mansion in the hills.

Your grandfather lived near the beach with a wife who was 30 years younger? Sounds like he had it made.

Well it was Myrtle Beach, which is kind of a shit hole. He was definitely cool, no doubt. Even at 5 I was aware that he had a great intellect.

But he was so restless that he'd move my Grandma and my Dad around every few years trying to start a new business. My grandma eventually got fed up and divorced him.

Not quite a life one would want to emulate.

You want to know the only thing you can assume about a broken down old man? It's that he's a survivor.
09-02-2019 10:19 AM
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Post: #69
RE: The Unabomber thread
I agree having a terrorist as poster child is dumb - even if I do believe in mitigating circumstances, such as the torture he endured as a teenager from the CIA, among other things.

Edit: KT, I also agree that his downfall was not having faith. He could have joined a monastery and be perfectly fine - at least until the system starts encroaching on those, which will eventually happen.

But this is why I started to read other people on the problems of technology, serious scholars without any implication in crimes or even political movements. Kaczynski's contribution to the discussion, after reading other authors, seems to be his analysis of leftist mentality and how it's tied to the technological problem. But other than this, you would be much more well off reading Ellul and Postman, for example.

This is to say that just because Kaczynski was the person that brought this discussion to the mainstream, and that he took his concerns to an extreme level (anarcho-primitivism), doesn't mean the discussion is not worth having and that all of us who have concerns about the technological society and the technical obsession it entails are necessarily in line with radical primitivism or any other ideology.

Personally, I think ideology is a secular substitute for Christ's teachings, so I don't need it. To me a system (political, social, economic) either is in accordance with our nature and against our fall, or it is in accordance with our fall and against our nature. So, is the modern technological world in general, and each applied technique or technology in particular, suited to the worship of Christ and the practice of its teachings?

It's a hard sell, that's all I'm saying.

Don't call it a grave, it's the future you chose.
(This post was last modified: 09-05-2019 05:22 AM by ilostabet.)
09-05-2019 05:18 AM
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Post: #70
RE: The Unabomber thread
(09-05-2019 05:18 AM)ilostabet Wrote:  To me a system (political, social, economic) either is in accordance with our nature and against our fall, or it is in accordance with our fall and against our nature. So, is the modern technological world in general, and each applied technique or technology in particular, suited to the worship of Christ and the practice of its teachings?

Do you think man nature is to follow the laws of nature or the laws of civilization ?
And how do you reconcile christianism not being compatible with either ?
09-05-2019 12:02 PM
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ilostabet Offline
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RE: The Unabomber thread
I think creation was perfect, but was corrupted by our Fall (along with the rest of creation, including the 'laws of nature').

I don't think Christianity is incompatible with civilization so I don't have to reconcile it - but from the conversations we've had, I think what we have is different conceptions of what civilizations is, or should be.

Don't call it a grave, it's the future you chose.
09-05-2019 04:15 PM
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Post: #72
RE: The Unabomber thread
There was never a time in which creation was perfect. Our story was one of immediate fall; that's actually the point. That we extrapolate it, is the lesson = we need God and can't do it on our own, which is the true, "original" [ancestral] sin - thinking we can and trying over and over to do it on our own. This is actually what "progressivism" and Babel are.

As far as IQ goes, let me give an anecdote. I'm surrounded in my profession by quite a few people with "higher IQs" than I, I'm quite certain. They rarely see the big picture as well as I do, or perhaps they aren't interested in it. Still, others, and studies have shown this, are severely lacking in critical thinking due to their primal brains and possibly upbringing not overcoming the IQ. Mental discipline is out there, but rare. Reproductive strategy and biology clouds this given your self confidence and physical characteristics too. I can talk about this more, but I'll leave it here for now.

Get your passport ready!
(This post was last modified: 09-06-2019 12:39 AM by Kid Twist.)
09-06-2019 12:37 AM
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RE: The Unabomber thread
(09-05-2019 04:15 PM)ilostabet Wrote:  I think creation was perfect, but was corrupted by our Fall (along with the rest of creation, including the 'laws of nature').

I don't think Christianity is incompatible with civilization so I don't have to reconcile it - but from the conversations we've had, I think what we have is different conceptions of what civilizations is, or should be.

So you believe that the currently observable human nature is not its true nature but a byproduct of the fall ?
How do you think man would be if it didn't happen ?

Regarding civilization well I never liked people much, I'm happier the less I see (and need) any.
I don't really have a conception of what it is or should be, I just see what I see.

But this could totally come from growing up in a very "diverse" environment - I would probably have been very different if I was only surrounded by my people all along.
09-06-2019 01:17 PM
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ilostabet
ilostabet Offline
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Post: #74
RE: The Unabomber thread
That is what I believe. I think we would be us, in our physical bodies, but without sin, decay and death.

With regards to technology, I have a very simple proposition, coded in that famous Bible quote: 'you will know them by their fruits'.

What kind of society has modern technology created? And do we see any discernible differences, other than ingrained cultural and genetic ones, in technologically advanced societies?

To me the answer is clear. Wherever modern technology reaches, we see the same types of dysfunction (social, mental, physical) regardless of genetic and cultural aspects.

It could be argued that it's a bunch of external factors making it so that we don't have a pious, orderly, moral, happy, stable and creative society with modern technology. But where there's smoke there's fire. To me this overbearing and worldwide phenomenon of degeneration at every level cannot be untied from the technical means which make it possible. If you believe in the Fall, it's easy to see why such powerful tools will be used for evil more than for good, just like everything else.

Modern technology is Tolkien's Ring - its power too great. The only lasting solution is to destroy it so no one can use it - because we know, even with good intentions, it ends badly - for the ones using it and everyone around them.

Don't call it a grave, it's the future you chose.
(This post was last modified: 09-06-2019 02:38 PM by ilostabet.)
09-06-2019 02:37 PM
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Samseau
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Post: #75
RE: The Unabomber thread
Hmm ok, interesting.
I mean it's more or less in the bible, I just don't know many people who take that literally.

Regarding modern technology I think you're throwing the baby with the bathwater a bit.

Living without it is easy, many organizations here allow you to experience this for the summer months.
You basically go live on a farm without tractors or fertilizers and scratch the earth for your subsistence every day.
At first it's cool thinking you're independent, but trust me it grows old rather quick.

I'm trying to do something like this in my garden, last year we had great weather and ate a lot of our own food.
This year the weather was shit and if it had been our only source of food my children would have starved and died.
Which should make anyone think about a change of plans maybe ..

Also have you read ravage by barjavel ? Smile
09-07-2019 06:01 AM
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