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Feminist Amanda Hess doesn't know what to do with white knights
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alexdagr81 Offline
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Feminist Amanda Hess doesn't know what to do with white knights
Quote:Allies are important, except when they’re the worst. That is my takeaway from this current moment in man-feminist relations, but the idea is not new. In 2012, North Carolina State University sociologist Kris Macomber interviewed dozens of men and women who advocate against gendered forms of violence and found seemingly endless contradictions embedded in the process of incorporating men into feminist movements. The central conflict is simple: Because men are “members of the dominant group, they have access to social and institutional power that women lack,” Macomber writes, and that makes them valuable to feminism—but it also makes them representatives of a culture feminists are working to change.

When it comes to day-to-day interactions between allies and feminists, the problem becomes a lot more complicated. (Macomber’s dissertation on the topic unspools the paradoxes over nearly 200 pages.) Male allies are encouraged to speak up against domestic violence because “men listen to other men,” Macomber found; then again, the idea that male voices are privileged over female ones is part of the problem. Men only seem to flock to feminist activism when the word men is coded into the event or organization title (Men For Choice; Men Can Stop Rape). On the other hand, men who enter female spaces without an explicit invitation may intrude on feminists seeking “a break from their everyday encounters with men.” Men who style themselves as “experts” in feminism overstate their qualifications, but those who insist that their feminism is a “process” and that they will invariably “make mistakes” seem to be granting themselves a license to mess up. Some feminists applaud men just for speaking out; others resent the fact that men are idolized for saying, as one female activist told Macomber, “the same exact thing Ida B. Wells said back in like 1824.” Even if feminist men exclusively produced “Sensitive, Correct, Good Takes,” Kat Stoeffel argued in The Cut last week, they’d still be “taking up space that a woman might have otherwise occupied.”

Macomber notes that when male allies work to “redefine” masculinity—as in the long-running Men Can Stop Rape campaign “My Strength Is Not for Hurting,” which foregrounded the idea that men are real strong—they signal an attempt to participate in feminism without actually shedding their male privilege. But that’s also a politically expedient tactic—it’s why President Obama calls on boys to be “real men” instead of asking them to “dismantle the patriarchy.” Male allies often position themselves in opposition to typically sexist dudes in order to find a community inside feminism, but identifying as one of the “good guys” can feel like a denial of their own role in the problems. (Meanwhile, men who guiltily disclose every sexist behavior they’ve personally exhibited can sound, frankly, gross.) Men are instructed to listen to women and follow their leadership, but if they seem overeager to earn female validation, their ulterior motives may be questioned.

So how is a man supposed to act? If you ask two feminists, they’ll inevitably disagree. Several female anti-violence advocates told Macomber that they’ve met wonderful allies through their work but can’t easily define what that means; they sense when a man just “gets it.” Macomber, now a sociology professor at Meredith College, says that although the term male accountability is often repeated in the movement, its definitions are “squishy,” “abstract,” and “confusing.” She argues that the feminist approach to allies could benefit from more “action-oriented language” and “very explicit guidelines.”

Welcome to feminism, dudes: This is the type of stuff we are dealing with every day. (Don’t get us started on Beyoncé.) The confusion over the role of male feminists is a prism for viewing fractures within the movement itself: Is feminism most effective as a radical fringe movement or a broad coalition? Should it stay grass-roots or go corporate? Is “feminist” a label that every person defines for themselves, or does it reference specific political beliefs and commitments? Should feminism focus squarely on women, or on gender itself?

After years of studying male ally-feminist relations, Macomber has found that “it’s ultimately good that we’re having these uncomfortable conversations, because it brings us closer and closer to coming up with good solutions.” And it’s worth remembering that wrestling over “how to integrate men in ways that don’t undermine gender equality” is a step up from “having to convince men that it’s a problem in the first place.”*

http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/201...inism.html

A little excerpt from the article. She wants to trust beta allies but believes what little masculinity they do have hurts feminism
(This post was last modified: 10-15-2014 09:01 PM by alexdagr81.)
10-15-2014 08:58 PM
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RE: Feminist Amanda Hess doesn't know what to do with white knights
Your one line of analysis says more than her entire essay.
10-15-2014 09:54 PM
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RE: Feminist Amanda Hess doesn't know what to do with white knights
(10-15-2014 09:54 PM)Suits Wrote:  Your one line of analysis says more than her entire essay.

LOL! Beat me to it. I was just going to say this is the most confused, convoluted load of mental masturbation I've ever suffered through. Had a forum member written this, he would have been told to go away for a while and come back when he learns to communicate -- and think.

And by the way, "How should a man act?" Hmm. Pick one:

1). Whichever way gets Amanda Hess to leave the room.

2). Whichever was gets Amanda Hess NOT to take her clothes off.

3). Whichever way attracts women who look like Amanda Seyfried and not Amanda Hess.
10-15-2014 11:21 PM
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2Wycked Offline
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Post: #4
RE: Feminist Amanda Hess doesn't know what to do with white knights
Anybody catch the Freudian slip?

Quote:* Correction, Oct. 15, 2014: This post originally misquoted Kris Macomber as saying that feminists are considering "how to integrate men in ways that don't undermine gender inequality"; she said that feminists are considering "how to integrate men in ways that don't undermine gender equality."

Laugh5

Old Chinese Man Wrote:  why you wonder how many man another man bang? why you care who bang who mr high school drama man
10-15-2014 11:43 PM
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Only One Man Offline
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RE: Feminist Amanda Hess doesn't know what to do with white knights
I always knew there was a reason I never liked Aziz Ansari when everyone else would talk about how funny he was. And it was more than just the fact that I didn't think he was funny. Really glad that hunch turned out to be right.
10-16-2014 12:45 AM
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RE: Feminist Amanda Hess doesn't know what to do with white knights
(10-15-2014 11:21 PM)Days of Broken Arrows Wrote:  
(10-15-2014 09:54 PM)Suits Wrote:  Your one line of analysis says more than her entire essay.

LOL! Beat me to it. I was just going to say this is the most confused, convoluted load of mental masturbation I've ever suffered through. Had a forum member written this, he would have been told to go away for a while and come back when he learns to communicate -- and think.

And by the way, "How should a man act?" Hmm. Pick one:

1). Whichever way gets Amanda Hess to leave the room.

2). Whichever was gets Amanda Hess NOT to take her clothes off.

3). Whichever way attracts women who look like Amanda Seyfried and not Amanda Hess.

Is it mental masturbation, or would that be to give it too much credit? Maybe it's just mental illness/abnormality. Surely you've met someone before who, at first, struck you as confused or inarticulate, until a little later, you figured out that you were dealing with a crazy person. It's a confusing interaction because there are points of lucidity, and even intellect. Then they tell you they're the reincarnation of Napoleon and all bets are off.

Last year, I taught a particular kid who was really off his rocker. At first, he confused the hell out of me because he had wild swings between being really on the ball and really off the ball. For the first few bad interactions, I thought he was screwing with me, and even later, I still thought he was aware of what he was doing to some extent. Then my co-teacher told me had Asperger's.

Maybe feminists are mentally ill. That doesn't mean we should put up with their shit, in the same way that you wouldn't want to open the gates of the local loony bin in general, but it might allow us to get a better handle on them and not take it so personally, even when they are clearly dangerous.
(This post was last modified: 10-16-2014 01:29 AM by Feisbook Control.)
10-16-2014 01:27 AM
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Mage Offline
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RE: Feminist Amanda Hess doesn't know what to do with white knights
This just shows that feminism can never be satisfied. There can be no reconciliation. It's a shit test that must be stopped with a slap and no explanation. There is no positive role for men in feminism, nothing a mangina does will ever be enough to satisfy a feminist. Woe to those why exercise this futility. The man is always to be seen as a villain. The sooner a man accepts that being a sexist "misogynist" douchebag is the only way and also the best way in life the better for him and the world.
10-16-2014 02:20 AM
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Sumanguru Offline
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RE: Feminist Amanda Hess doesn't know what to do with white knights
This dude (Aziz), famous dude who many in the nation know, who can go and perform at any comedy club in America, who has a large social media presence, who chills with the biggest names in entertainment (Jay-Z, Kanye, etc.) goes on national television during prime time to unequivocally advocate for your cause.

And you throw him under the bus?

There really is no satisfying these women. I guess it's like dealing with terrorists. He gave into her demands but she bombed him anyway. Lesson learned: never negotiate with terrorists.
10-16-2014 04:05 AM
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Sonsowey Offline
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RE: Feminist Amanda Hess doesn't know what to do with white knights
Anyone want to share traumatic stories of dealing with real life feminists?

#isurvivedfeminism

RVF Book Club February: Julius Evola - Revolt Against the Modern World
10-16-2014 07:32 AM
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Saga Offline
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RE: Feminist Amanda Hess doesn't know what to do with white knights
(10-16-2014 02:20 AM)Mage Wrote:  This just shows that feminism can never be satisfied. There can be no reconciliation. It's a shit test that must be stopped with a slap and no explanation. There is no positive role for men in feminism, nothing a mangina does will ever be enough to satisfy a feminist. Woe to those why exercise this futility. The man is always to be seen as a villain. The sooner a man accepts that being a sexist "misogynist" douchebag is the only way and also the best way in life the better for him and the world.

I forget where on the sphere I first saw this but it's profoundly true:

"Women want fried ice" - Arab proverb
10-16-2014 09:43 AM
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The Beast1 Offline
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RE: Feminist Amanda Hess doesn't know what to do with white knights
(10-16-2014 07:32 AM)Sonsowey Wrote:  Anyone want to share traumatic stories of dealing with real life feminists?

#isurvivedfeminism

When I was helping with a freshmen orientation in college, one of the ice breaker conversations was a game where we say "That phrase hurts my feelings" or some shit like that. The premise was a way to have a conversation about sensitive topics that don't go hurting people.

The beginning questions were easy and then we got into a good one. The question was:

"Do you think allies can understand the suffering of an oppressed class?"

Everyone said no and when it came to me, I said "yes. It's called empathy."

This enraged the black woman who was helping run the program. Her suffering was apart of her identity apparently and she was running her mouth to me about how I'd never understand her suffering.

My response was, "Unless you want to be a perpetual victim, it doesn't make sense to throw the people who are in the best position to help you under the bus."

She got red in the face and the topic changed to another PG rated topic. After that, I was given the short stick by the entire group for being a free thinker.

Shalom Alechem!
10-16-2014 09:57 AM
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SteveMcMahon Offline
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RE: Feminist Amanda Hess doesn't know what to do with white knights
The role of men in feminism:

[Image: 1660R-19252.jpg]
10-16-2014 01:09 PM
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catoblepa Offline
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RE: Feminist Amanda Hess doesn't know what to do with white knights
say what you want but I would totally bukkakke over Amanda Hess' face, she has the word bukkakke written all over her.
10-16-2014 01:15 PM
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Slim Shady Offline
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RE: Feminist Amanda Hess doesn't know what to do with white knights
I went on a rant about this [not on the Forum] a few days ago.

I wish that George Carlin were alive today just so he could go on a rant to shut down Aziz for the despicable showing on Letterman. You could even see Letterman uncomfortably laughing at that bullshit.

This guy is supposed to be a stand-up comic? One of the top standup comics today? And he comes on a show and tries to get cheap applause for parroting the dictionary definition of feminism?

Quit your job man. You don't deserve to be called a stand-up comic. I mean we went to town on Emma Watson for reading from the dictionary, but she's not a standup. Stand-up is supposed to be the ultimate in masculinity and free speech when it comes to entertainment. What a load of shit - this is the top? Embarrassing.

What a fucking tosser Aziz turned out to be. A weasel wanker. He had some funny bits [though always had weird gay rights things he would twist to suit the agenda] and I respected him somewhat for not going to Russel Peters route of doing racial/Indian humor...but god damn man. Go suck on Amy Poehler's cock. In fact she is funnier than you.

You don't get there till you get there
10-16-2014 01:26 PM
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Kingsley Davis Offline
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RE: Feminist Amanda Hess doesn't know what to do with white knights
(10-16-2014 01:15 PM)catoblepa Wrote:  say what you want but I would totally bukkakke over Amanda Hess' face, she has the word bukkakke written all over her.
That distinction is for her crush James Deen.

"The porn machine churns out performers to satisfy every fantasy, be it MILF, dwarf, fat, granny, or gang bang. But if you’re interested in watching a young, heterosexual, nonrepulsive man engage in sex, James Deen is basically it."

http://magazine.good.is/articles/what-women-want

"Some people don't think it be like it is but it do".
10-16-2014 01:27 PM
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Only One Man Offline
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RE: Feminist Amanda Hess doesn't know what to do with white knights
(10-16-2014 01:26 PM)Slim Shady Wrote:  I went on a rant about this [not on the Forum] a few days ago.

I wish that George Carlin were alive today just so he could go on a rant to shut down Aziz for the despicable showing on Letterman. You could even see Letterman uncomfortably laughing at that bullshit.

This guy is supposed to be a stand-up comic? One of the top standup comics today? And he comes on a show and tries to get cheap applause for parroting the dictionary definition of feminism?

Quit your job man. You don't deserve to be called a stand-up comic. I mean we went to town on Emma Watson for reading from the dictionary, but she's not a standup. Stand-up is supposed to be the ultimate in masculinity and free speech when it comes to entertainment. What a load of shit - this is the top? Embarrassing.

What a fucking tosser Aziz turned out to be. A weasel wanker. He had some funny bits [though always had weird gay rights things he would twist to suit the agenda] and I respected him somewhat for not going to Russel Peters route of doing racial/Indian humor...but god damn man. Go suck on Amy Poehler's cock. In fact she is funnier than you.

Shit Aziz was uncomfortable himself as he was going on his little rant. He obviously doesn't believe what he was saying, which makes it even more pathetic.
10-17-2014 12:07 AM
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