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The "Do You Even Deadlift" Clinic
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VincentVinturi Offline
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Post: #51
RE: The "Do You Even Deadlift" Clinic
First of all, thanks for starting this thread and dropping all this knowledge.

The tip on getting your hips as close to the bar as possible alone has really improved my dead.

For some reason I never even considered using a hook grip - double overhand has been working well for me - but I'll try to learn the hook grip the next time I periodize.

It doesn't help that my gym doesn't have any chalk, and the barbells aren't knurled aggressively enough to get a solid grip when your hands are damp.

But I'm going to order some liquid chalk.

Thanks again.

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05-12-2015 12:34 AM
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Post: #52
RE: The "Do You Even Deadlift" Clinic
I'm so glad I came across this thread, specially for the hook grip info and the fact that mixed grip can give you issues on one side of your body (makes fucking sense). I tried rotating the grips to even out but I prefer left overhand grip, right underhand grip and usually stick with that.

I tried hook grip once, without really investing a lot of energy into looking it up and it hurt like a motherfucker and I didn't want to drop my weights at the time to restart.

After this trip overseas I will be restarting. Also glad I read about not locking shoulders back, I also do this. Have been seeing a lot of dudes like Layne Norton and his clients posting lat spreads and claiming deadlifts did it I'm like how the fuck. Now I get it.

I stalled at a 335 deadlift, while my squat shot up to an all time best of 295 (I swear I had 315 in me). Those two lift should not be so close, DL should have been much higher. I think the lat activation thing and keeping my arms taut is going to help me refind my groove, along with hook grip. All these should help me get my hips closer to the bar as well.

I've also been very anti wraps, lifting belts, knee sleeves, etc since the very beginning of when I started lifting. I may invest in the straps now, I'm still borderline on the belt. I've made very good progress without it so far, at least I feel, and I still feel like I can take more. I picked up some sleeves and do like them.

Can't wait I come back and start Lifting again, and I can ease into hook gripping at the same time as easing back into lifting.
(This post was last modified: 05-12-2015 03:16 AM by Jetlagged.)
05-12-2015 03:06 AM
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VincentVinturi Offline
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Post: #53
RE: The "Do You Even Deadlift" Clinic
If you did one of these clinics for each of the major lifts (squat, bench, overhead press, barbell row) I'd pay for it.

Each time I'm in the gym I'm more and more amazed at how freaking technical lifting is.

And once you've made all of the obvious, major adjustments, all of the more elusive, tiny adjustments start factoring in.

Do you think it would be worth paying a coach for a few privates on lifting form?

There are some personal trainer, S&C types here in Phuket, but how can I know if they know WTF they're doing...?

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(This post was last modified: 05-12-2015 03:16 AM by VincentVinturi.)
05-12-2015 03:14 AM
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Post: #54
RE: The "Do You Even Deadlift" Clinic
I was stuck deadlifting 275 for a struggled 5 for months.

My younger (but much bigger brother) one time saw me deadlift. He showed me proper technique. Six months later I maxed out at 435.

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05-13-2015 11:54 PM
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Benoit Offline
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Post: #55
RE: The "Do You Even Deadlift" Clinic
(05-06-2015 07:54 PM)StrikeBack Wrote:  Sheiko explains it very clearly in his book, but it's in Russian.

You want to set up in the exact same position you would be at if you were to lift the bar from the floor. There is often a more efficient position to do in a rack pull, which your body may drift into, and one you wouldn't be in if you were to do a full lift. You don't want to be in that position and it will indeed feel like a different lift.

I'd take a lighter weight, deadlift to roughly where the bar should be in your desired rack pull, pause there for a bit then commit that position and feeling to muscle memory, so you can reproduce that in a rack pull.

Last session I did deadlift to knees, then deadlift from boxes. Focused on matching my position at the end of the first lift with the start of the second.

Hard to explain in words but the box deadlift start position was where I'd be after getting halfway through the full lift, instead of setting up as normal but being a bit higher.

I felt much more solid and stable, and the movement felt like part of a deadlift instead of a whole new thing.

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05-14-2015 09:08 AM
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Post: #56
RE: The "Do You Even Deadlift" Clinic
You're all welcome Smile

Liquid chalk is pretty good. I use it when I'm not at my powerlifting gym.

Vincent, definitely, every lift is a skill, and lifting is a sport that's as technical as anything else. I'd say if you can get a good coach in person, that's ideal. Some of the tips I've posted up here can be coached in a few minutes in person. However due to the nature of forums and my preference towards explaining things so people can learn by themselves, I write more.

How do you tell if a coach knows what they're doing... it's a chicken and egg thing. When you've learned and practiced enough good lifting techniques, you will know, but you may actually need a coach to get there in the first place. Good question, I'll think about this and post something later.

I intend to post up several clinic threads, the next one will be about novice training, then maybe squat.

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05-14-2015 09:35 PM
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Chaos Offline
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Post: #57
RE: The "Do You Even Deadlift" Clinic
^Strikeback, a squat clinic would be awesome!

Since this thread started my deadlift went up from 150kg to 175kg so now I've passed the 2x bodyweight mark. And it still feels like I'm improving rapidly. I'm still a newbie lifter so I've gotten plenty of good info from this thread.

Heads up.
(This post was last modified: 05-14-2015 11:07 PM by Chaos.)
05-14-2015 11:01 PM
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StrikeBack Offline
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Post: #58
RE: The "Do You Even Deadlift" Clinic
Excellent work, Chaos!

Yeah I'd like to do a squat clinic, mainly because squat is by far my most favourite lift, although I'm much better at deadlifting. I also suck at benching (due to a long term shoulder injury), and you probably want CrashBangWallop to do that thread instead, as he's a beast at pressing.

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05-16-2015 02:28 AM
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Jetlagged Offline
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Post: #59
RE: The "Do You Even Deadlift" Clinic
Thoughts on DL and squatting without a belt? I know I saw earlier you recommend, just wondering if you have any more detail on this.

Been doing them beltless for 3 years worked up pretty well doing them like this. Pulled a back muscle one time but it was pretty minor.

Sometimes during a heavy squat I will get stuck 1/2 way up and I just keep bracing the shit of out my abs and back with a huge abdominal squeeze, continue to press and finish the lift. I guess I kind of taught myself this over time. Usually my hips give out before my back does in a 1RM attempt.

Do you recommend a belt? I really would like to go without as I kind of feel like my form would get sloppy as I depend more on the belt and less on my own bracing. Its also maybe a slight ego thing, where most guys strap up I do without. I also don't normally do much ab work solely due to getting it through compounds. I seen a few guys hit DLs where if they didn't have a belt I feel like they wouldn't be able to walk out of the gym upright. Just wondering your take on a guy who's been adamant about being beltless for awhile. As a counterpoint, My lifts aren't huge yet either. I do see a lot of dudes able to beltless squat 5-600.

My current best lifts with BW are posted I think on this page, or the previous.
(This post was last modified: 05-16-2015 03:11 AM by Jetlagged.)
05-16-2015 03:06 AM
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StrikeBack Offline
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Post: #60
RE: The "Do You Even Deadlift" Clinic
Someone (long time beltless guy who's decent but not very strong) asked me this very question last night at training. Here's my answer to him:

Wear a belt if you want to work your abs harder, because you have something to brace against. Bracing against thin air doesn't fully activate your abs.

Don't wear a belt if you want to work your back harder.

They're both valid training tools, but use them to strengthen your abs or back, not your ego.

If you compete with a belt, practice with it.

I don't care if someone lifts more than me belt-less in training, but lifts less than me in competition where we're allowed to use a belt.

Personally I wear a belt for pretty much every set of squat and deadlift, so I can hit maximal high tension in my core for maximal force production (what I practice my comp lifts for). I go belt-less if I do deadlift variations like stiff legged or heavy KB swings to work my low back specifically. I also work abs really hard through a variety of exercises.

Occasionally I've done belt-less heavy squats or deadlifts and felt fine, although I felt my back recovered slower the next day. Since I lift very frequently, I need fast recovery, which is one reason why I always wear a belt for the big lifts.

For someone with a small waist (lighter lifters like myself, or small female lifters), a belt-less squat or deadlift feels very different to one with belt. This can cause poor strength transfer from belt-less training to competition movements with belt.

Having said that, my answer is obviously with a raw powerlifting bias. If you don't like wearing a belt, don't wear one. But I suggest don't do so because you think it makes you tougher than other guys at your gym. Do so if it benefits your training.

Also, I've tested ab strength of people who believe they get more than enough through compound movements, and they've always come up short.

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05-16-2015 04:43 AM
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Post: #61
RE: The "Do You Even Deadlift" Clinic
Noted good sir.

I will think hard about this information. Ego should never be part of a lift, you're right about that.

I've been able to hold a hollow hold for 1 min. I'm going to keep working them to try to get it up to 3. Not sure if I'm doing them right but I'm pretty sure I am. Saw a video of some crossfit tees doing them, and saw they were doing them wrong (big surprise) so I think I got it.

Either way i will add more ab work into my routines and start looking more seriously at belts and how to use them based on your info. I can see it as a tool.
05-17-2015 05:04 AM
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StrikeBack Offline
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Post: #62
RE: The "Do You Even Deadlift" Clinic
Deadlift assistant exercise - Pause Deadlift

I learned it from Mike Tuscherer of RTS fame.

This is both my favourite and most hated assistant exercise for the deadlift. The pause variation is like this: lift the bar up to mid-shin, pause for 2 seconds, then finish the lift as normal.

It is a great tool to teach people several things:

- The most efficient bar path
- Where your body and balance should be
- Keep the bar close to the body: straight up the shins, then thighs etc.
- Engage the abs (especially in breaking the bar off the floor), glutes and lats
- Hold the quads tight half way up so the glutes can finish it
- Patience with the lift

If you don't do any of those properly, the pause will be a mighty struggle. If you do the pause properly, you will learn all the good habits that will make your main deadlift technique improve significantly. That's why it's my favourite.

How to do it properly: just like a normal deadlift, but you'll have to actively break the bar off the floor by exploding into the lift with your abs, else you won't be able to pause.

How to incorporate that into your training:

- Do it during warmups, for the first couple of reps (so you can put it in your existing program starting now)
- Do it after deadlift as drop sets, or as a 2nd deadlift session in the training week
- Use lighter weights, at most 75% of your 1RM, and lower reps and sets, at most 3-4 reps, usually 2-3.

This is for practice the form, not so much working hard for strength gains. When you have solid technique, you can drop it off the program.

Do not underestimate the effect. A light weight will quickly feel very hard. I used to do these as a second round of deadlift after the first round, on a Sheiko program. That's why I hated it so much!

Bonus - if you don't like yourself very much, do a double pause: at mid-shin for 2 counts on the way up, and also on the way down.

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05-19-2015 06:48 AM
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Post: #63
RE: The "Do You Even Deadlift" Clinic
delete, replied to an outdated post in thread.

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(This post was last modified: 05-19-2015 07:43 PM by CJ_W.)
05-19-2015 07:42 PM
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kbell Offline
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Post: #64
RE: The "Do You Even Deadlift" Clinic
How do you protect your shins from getting all scraped up? Tape or long socks? I bled a few times from this, although its not a common occurrence.
(This post was last modified: 05-22-2015 10:58 AM by kbell.)
05-22-2015 10:23 AM
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kbell Offline
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Post: #65
RE: The "Do You Even Deadlift" Clinic
I tried the paused deadlift today after squatting. I have short legs so I paused around the knee area, at the top, and than back at the knees a few times. At 155 my form suffered at pausing but was okay on a 175 normal deadlift. The paused 155 fail was due to the back starting to curve. It was fine at 135. Hookgrips hurt more during a paused than a standard deadlift too.
(This post was last modified: 05-22-2015 04:31 PM by kbell.)
05-22-2015 04:30 PM
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Post: #66
RE: The "Do You Even Deadlift" Clinic
(05-22-2015 10:23 AM)kbell Wrote:  How do you protect your shins from getting all scraped up? Tape or long socks? I bled a few times from this, although its not a common occurrence.

Cheap pair of compression pants, as they're slippery. I bought 2 pairs for $25 over 5 years ago, and they're still good for deadlifting.

Pause deadlift is supposed to be with relatively light weights, at most about 70% of 1RM. It is deceptively hard. The trick is to use a weight that makes you use correct form, but not so heavy that you break form. If 155 fails, then you should only try up to about 140 next time. Like I said, it is about learning how to engage core muscles etc. NOT actually training for strength through working harder.

Hook grip will be tougher on any variation that goes for longer (time wise). Hook grip's main weakness is endurance, so if you do something like pause deadlift, Romanian or Stiff-Legged variations, it will be tough, especially after you've already done regular deadlifts. That's where straps often come in.

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05-23-2015 01:56 AM
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Post: #67
RE: The "Do You Even Deadlift" Clinic
== The No Deadlift Program for novices ==

After all these technique tips, I will tell you something surprising:

If you're a novice and not yet repping 1.5xBW deadlift, or have a 1RM that is less than 2xBW, and you are struggling to make any gain, you should stop deadlifting completely.

If after you read through my previous tips in this thread and find yourself lost especially when it comes to activating this or that muscle group, a No-Deadlift program might just be what you need to have a breakthrough.

Why is this? The deadlift requires your entire body to coordinate and produce maximal force, but most newbies do not have sufficient body awareness to do this, so they tend to favour one muscle group over the rest and that's usually their back. The more frequently they deadlift, the more ingrained this poor movement pattern is, and the more hurt they suffer. That's the tricky thing about the deadlift: when done absolutely right, it works damn near everything in your body; when done wrong, it overloads certain parts and fucks up your body.

When I first started, I was inspired by a local coach who advocated the use of the deadlift (conventional or sumo style) as a demonstration of strength, not a strength training exercise, at least for newbies. Those newbies would deadlift maybe once a month or once every couple of months just to check progress. Instead of deadlift in their program, they use the space and energy to do general strength training:

- more squats
- more abs and back work
- lots of KB exercises
- some variations of the deadlift using lighter weights e.g Romanian DL or Stiff-Legged DL

Whenever those people test the deadlift, their PRs go up.

I trained myself and my own newbies very similarly and they make better progress on the deadlift while deadlifting very sparingly. By doing no-deadlift, I took mine to 200kg 1RM in competition. Even now, I have a ridiculously low deadlift volume, often 5-10 total reps on top work sets a week. Although as I get stronger, I will eventually increase this volume slightly.

This is not unprecedented either, even at the very top level. Bill Starr and his mate from weightlifting used to come over to powerlifting and destroy the deadlifts while having not done much deadlifting at all. See: http://www.liftinglarge.com/The-No-Deadl..._51-1.html

If you've been stuck at around the weight I mentioned above for a while, here's how you can implement this in your current program. Simply take out the 3x5 or 1x5 or whatever deadlift slot you have there and replace it with some or all of the below exercises (pick the ones that are your weakness - choose from all 3 groups):

Except for the squats, where you can go from high to low reps (muscle building -> power building), the rest should be done with higher rep ranges, at least 8+, more (20+) for the easier / smaller lifts.

Group 1 (compound lifts that have similar strength requirements and muscle activation):

High Bar Squat
Front Squat
Stiff-Legged Deadlift
Romanian Deadlift

Group 2 (core: including abs, glutes and erectors)

Heavy KB Swings
Heavy KB/DB Farmers Walk
Ab Wheel Rollouts / Hollow Body Position / Superman pushups / Hanging Leg Raises
Barbell hip thrusts (go for speed and holding at the top for time over heavy weights)

Group 3 (lats)

Pull ups
Lat Pulldowns
Seated Cable Rows
Barbell Rows
DB Rows

If you like, every 6-8 weeks you can deadlift for 1-2 top sets, 1-3 reps, just to see the progress.

If you really really have to do deadlift, keep it very light, and very low volume, like 2x2 or 3x3 once a week, using the kind of weights that you can do 3x5 or more with. Then spend the extra energy on the above exercises.

Happy No-Deadlifting!

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05-26-2015 08:16 AM
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kbell Offline
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Post: #68
RE: The "Do You Even Deadlift" Clinic
Is holding in your breath the only way breathe during the lifting phase? Can you let out a little breath to release some pressure? Sometimes the pressure from lifting bothers my eye and can cause a hemorrhage.
(This post was last modified: 06-09-2015 08:40 PM by kbell.)
06-09-2015 08:39 PM
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Post: #69
RE: The "Do You Even Deadlift" Clinic
I'm sure you can hold your breath just fine for <5s. Most deadlift reps should take about 2s, max attempts 4~5s (although my longest ever was nearly 15s).

Breathe in strongly at the bottom -> lift and hold your breath -> breathe out forcefully at the top as you lock out.

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06-10-2015 01:24 AM
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kbell Offline
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Post: #70
RE: The "Do You Even Deadlift" Clinic
Holding the breath isn't the issue though. Its the pressure that happens in my eye that is. Perhaps a faster rep, my reps tend to be 3-4 seconds with a lot of breath held in. Too much pressure may lead to retinal detachment I've heard and I have a family history of that. He asked is it possible to hold the breathe in with the mouth open, since that would reduce pressure a tad. The closing of the mouth might be the cause.

When I do the pause lifts I don't hold the breath in during the pause, but sort of quick breath. And a slight hold during the final pull up. They don't bother my eye at all, but I'm not lifting much weight either.
(This post was last modified: 06-10-2015 09:48 AM by kbell.)
06-10-2015 09:36 AM
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Post: #71
RE: The "Do You Even Deadlift" Clinic
I think you're supposed to breathe out at the bottom. Otherwise you'll relax and lose tightness at the top.

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06-10-2015 10:01 AM
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Post: #72
RE: The "Do You Even Deadlift" Clinic
Nah you breathe in at the bottom just before lift off, hold it through the lift, then breathe out at the top. However, this breathing out doesn't mean you get all air out. It's just a forceful exhale like when you connect a punch, you still keep some air in. Once you've put the bar down, if needed, you can take bigger breaths in and out before the next rep.

Never breathe all out in the squat and bench as you're always under high tension from the bar.

kbell, I had a similar experience post eye surgery a few years ago, as my eye pressure was high. My optometrist warned about lifting and increased pressure. Eventually that went away though. This is something you have to feel and judge for yourself. You will still need to keep air in so you can protect your spine and stay tight, but within the limit of your eye condition.

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06-10-2015 08:27 PM
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Post: #73
RE: The "Do You Even Deadlift" Clinic
So far keeping my mouth open yet holding my breath but not too full worked. I will see if I have a hemorrhage tomorrow. I do think I may have to cut down to 2 times a week with the deadlift, squats and benches though. I'm not recovering well from that frequency of the big three, especially on my lower back. So hopefully one light/moderate and one heavy session a week will work well.
06-10-2015 09:36 PM
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Post: #74
RE: The "Do You Even Deadlift" Clinic
From a 3x bw deadlifter, gj strikeback. I can tell if I had bad form from any lower back pain days after the lift, not associated with DOMS. (Delayed onset muscle soreness).
06-26-2015 12:09 PM
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Post: #75
RE: The "Do You Even Deadlift" Clinic
Is there a correction for the lift if your hips tend to rotate back and up? I think I have very tight psoas muscles which I am going to start stretching often. I get a dull ache around the lower back which is made worse from sitting.
07-08-2015 02:39 PM
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