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Riots In Baltimore After Death In Police Custody
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It_is_my_time Offline
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Post: #226
RE: Riots In Baltimore After Death In Police Custody
(05-02-2015 01:41 PM)TheWastelander Wrote:  It is all very interesting. Police in Baltimore, Chicago, and some other big northeastern cities have been crippled by corruption, brutality, political ideology, bureaucracy, militarization, and forced into roles as drug-warriors. All of this leads to widespread mistrust. They're no longer allowed to effectively respond to tribalistic, racist groups battling it out in the inner cities because it would be bad for the politicians so they have a "fuck it" attitude, leaving the law-abiding poor in the no-go zones to fend for themselves.

I talk to these people often enough in my own city and they can't really do much about their current situation.

What needs to happen is that we need to just legalize drugs. Beyond that, I don't know what can economically be done to help these areas. The people there don't have a lot of skills and the manufacturing jobs we sent overseas are never coming back. They'll keep moving to poorer and poorer countries where the labor's cheaper and the regulations aren't stringent.

I predict a large flight of the middle class folks still living in Baltimore. It'll wind up like the other big shitholes: there will be the very rich and the very poor. The poor will be addicted to what handouts they can get from the government since there aren't any jobs, thereby entrenching the Democratic Party rule even further. The mainstream media (which is really just a propaganda arm at this point and has a highly incestuous relationship with the government) will not be interested in investigating corruption and give them a pass.

It's a sign of things to come for the country as a whole if shit doesn't change. In the future the big cities might very well look like Johannesburg and the people living in the country and suburbs will be heavily-armed to keep the rot from spreading.

Exactly. I've never seen so much talk and excitement from just regular beta male fathers about guns over the last few years. These are not your former military or hunting types. These are just guys with 9-5 jobs in a cubicle and 2 kids at home in the burbs. They are arming up as well.

The whole gun debate after Sandy Hook backfired in a majority of the country and even the blue pill people could see the next move was to stock up on bullets.
(This post was last modified: 05-02-2015 02:08 PM by It_is_my_time.)
05-02-2015 02:06 PM
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Simeon_Strangelight Offline
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Post: #227
RE: Riots In Baltimore After Death In Police Custody
(05-02-2015 01:41 PM)TheWastelander Wrote:  It is all very interesting. Police in Baltimore, Chicago, and some other big northeastern cities have been crippled by corruption, brutality, political ideology, bureaucracy, militarization, and forced into roles as drug-warriors. All of this leads to widespread mistrust. They're no longer allowed to effectively respond to tribalistic, racist groups battling it out in the inner cities because it would be bad for the politicians so they have a "fuck it" attitude, leaving the law-abiding poor in the no-go zones to fend for themselves.
...

It's a sign of things to come for the country as a whole if shit doesn't change. In the future the big cities might very well look like Johannesburg and the people living in the country and suburbs will be heavily-armed to keep the rot from spreading.

This is an absolutely correct assessment. It serves little to accuse the police of militarization as if the guys below are doing and planning that very thing. They too are kegs in the machine and can only do so much. Accusations of racism are also idiotic if the police force is 80% black. As much as some interest groups would like to make it about racism it simply is not.

The issue is poverty, is single motherhood households - and I personally don't see how this problem will be solved under the current system. It will just become worse. Where should the jobs come for the youth? The current riots decreased the attractiveness of the city even more. Unemployment will rise, drug abuse will rise and so will hopelessness and crime.

The results from that entire fiasco will be a greater mistrust of the police, greater separation of the population, more funding and more militarization for the police and more individual armament by the people elsewhere who may expect similar things to happen in their backyard. As you have correctly put - the suburbs may be fortified with machine gun turrets soon and resemble places in South America or South Africa.
05-02-2015 02:47 PM
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Quintus Curtius Offline
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Post: #228
RE: Riots In Baltimore After Death In Police Custody
I agree completely with Mr. Dershowitz, whose comments on this matter are razor-sharp and are worth listening to in their entirety:







Everything he says is, in my view, correct.

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(This post was last modified: 05-02-2015 03:03 PM by Quintus Curtius.)
05-02-2015 03:02 PM
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Constitution45 Offline
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Post: #229
RE: Riots In Baltimore After Death In Police Custody
From a rule of law and security perspective that is the most stupidest thing she could have said. Especially so early into the investigation process. Problem is the SJW crowd have been given too much leeway, and their narrative appears to be not just the media's but also the governments. This is nothing new and happens regularly throughout history. The white bogey man can keep on getting played out, it doesn't matter if there are any facts around. Even if it was a black cop committing the most heinous crime against a black detainee, it will still come down to a malevolent 'white power structure' or whatever stupid Orwellian speak these idiot SJWs are using nowadays.

In Zimbabwe the middle class whites and Indians where chased out because certain leaders rallied the crowds around getting 'justice', overnight the entire economy collapsed. A similar thing will happen or is already happening in American cities. Same thing occurred with the Chinese in South East Asia, its old as time itself. The progressives will unknowingly end up passing more legislation through which results in segregation again.
(This post was last modified: 05-02-2015 03:50 PM by Constitution45.)
05-02-2015 03:43 PM
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AFspecOps Offline
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Post: #230
RE: Riots In Baltimore After Death In Police Custody
There is now speculation that Gray tested positive for both heroin and marijuana, which could explain his headbanging, and how it proved fatal to his existing (reported) spinal injury.

Still should have been belted in though.
(This post was last modified: 05-02-2015 04:35 PM by AFspecOps.)
05-02-2015 04:32 PM
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Basil Ransom Offline
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Post: #231
RE: Riots In Baltimore After Death In Police Custody
QC, your response implies that the system until now has been a model of justice, when it hasn’t been.
After repeated instances of abuse of this presumption of evidence of police (as you mention in #4), police are losing it.

As for Dershowitz, he keeps claiming they filed a “murder” charge, when what they filed wasn’t a garden variety murder charge, but a “depraved heart murder” charge which is very different. I don’t see how prosecutors are “overcharging*” when the charges against the officers are plausible, and not clearly false – the notable thing about the prosecution is that they aren’t going easy on the cops for being cops. Which is what you said. That’s not a miscarriage of justice, but an extension of it. Prolifically recording and broadcasting police activity should serve the cause of justice as well, as is increasingly becoming apparent.

This is a little off-topic, but jury nullification is a hidden cornerstone of the justice system. And the establishment despises it, and conceals it as much as possible. So when a legal pundit like Dershowitz starts making proclamations, I check his record on jury nullification. Aside from calling nullification a “redneck trick” (http://scholarship.law.cornell.edu/cgi/v...xt=cjlpp), Dershowitz hasn’t spoken of it much, let alone in its favor, despite abundant opportunity. So on a critical level, he’s on the establishment’s side.

Did the prosecutor file charges too quickly? Perhaps – we don’t know what evidence she had. Nor is quickly filing charges all that exceptional, as this page suggests - http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/h...harge.html
Prosecutors are always filing charges that aren’t 100% right, but are still plausible – isn’t that what a trial is for, figuring it all out? It’s just rare that this standard approach is being turned back on police.


*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overcharging_%28law%29

“Police in Baltimore, Chicago, and some other big northeastern cities have been crippled by corruption, brutality, political ideology, bureaucracy, militarization, and forced into roles as drug-warriors. All of this leads to widespread mistrust. They're no longer allowed to effectively respond to tribalistic, racist groups battling it out in the inner cities because it would be bad for the politicians so they have a "fuck it" attitude, leaving the law-abiding poor in the no-go zones to fend for themselves.”

You’re talking about police as a passive victim, when they are often the very source of the brutality and corruption of which you speak. Frank Serpico still has the NYPD giving him the cold shoulder, for showing the NYPD to be overrun with corruption. http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2...UVX2SFVhHw
05-02-2015 06:14 PM
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Post: #232
RE: Riots In Baltimore After Death In Police Custody
(05-02-2015 12:57 PM)Quintus Curtius Wrote:  1. The prosecutor, Marilyn Mosby, said in her (grandstanding) speech something to the effect that "I have heard the voices of the youth call out for 'no justice, no peace.' I have heard your calls, and promise to bring justice."

The problem with pronouncements like this is that they give the undeniable impression that the rancorous mob is driving events, not the interests of justice.

The job of a prosecutor is not to listen to rioting mobs chanting slogans. The job of a prosecutor is to calmly and dispassionately analyze the facts. One does not get that impression from listening to her.

Imagine if you were being (falsely) accused of rape by some random sloot; rioters, the media, and the Cultural Left are calling for your head; and the prosecution said this about you.

Chilling.

This is why we (nominally) have checks and balances against the animal spirits of the masses, and court decisions aren't decided by popular vote...

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05-02-2015 06:22 PM
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Foolsgo1d Offline
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Post: #233
RE: Riots In Baltimore After Death In Police Custody
So these cops have to go down right? If they come back to the crowd and say "they're not going to jail, just fired" then I would assume you'd need to send in the National Guard to quell the destruction from all the false outrage.

If these cops get thrown to the lions what will the response be from their colleagues?
(This post was last modified: 05-02-2015 07:42 PM by Foolsgo1d.)
05-02-2015 07:41 PM
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el mechanico Offline
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Post: #234
RE: Riots In Baltimore After Death In Police Custody
(05-02-2015 07:41 PM)Foolsgo1d Wrote:  So these cops have to go down right? If they come back to the crowd and say "they're not going to jail, just fired" then I would assume you'd need to send in the National Guard to quell the destruction from all the false outrage.

If these cops get thrown to the lions what will the response be from their colleagues?
Nope. All the wrong charges were on the table and just fun for good lawyers to defend for sport.

Sorry Baltimore you suck ass.
05-02-2015 07:56 PM
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Quintus Curtius Offline
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Post: #235
RE: Riots In Baltimore After Death In Police Custody
Basil:

I hear you, but I just don't agree with many of your points. I'll explain more:

1. "QC, your response implies that the system until now has been a model of justice, when it hasn’t been."

I don't think my post implies that the system has been a model for justice. I think every court system is by nature imperfect. But properly run, it's still better than any other system.

Regardless, as Dershowitz says, criminal trials are not public forums to discuss injustice. The only people whose rights matter in a criminal trial are the rights of the defendant. That's it. Ms. Mosby's pandering, activism, and inability to recognize her function in the criminal justice system render her unfit for her office. She should be removed.

2. "Depraved heart murder" is still an extremely serious offense, and I see no reason to hair-split between this and first degree murder. It's not first-degree murder, but it still is a form of murder. My point is that any type of "murder" charge in his case is grossly inappropriate.

And mark my words, the trial will show this. As Dershowitz says: just like the prosecutor for the Zimmerman case grossly overcharged him, so the prosecutor here did the same thing. They are out to make a name for themselves.

3. Basil, "jury nullification" is not a cornerstone of the criminal justice system.

This is a fantasy that exists in the minds of movie screenplay writers and others who have little acquaintance with the criminal justice system.

I have been conducting criminal jury trials in federal and state court for 16 years and I believe I know what I'm talking about. Juries are required by law to follow the jury instructions given to them by the court.

They cannot just ignore the law, even if they want to, and even if they disagree with it.

Do some of them try to do this in rare situations? Of course. But this is not relevant to the discussion here. Counting on a miracle like "jury nullification" to be acquitted of a trumped-up charge hardly qualifies as a legitimate check on prosecutorial misconduct.

And that doesn't even factor in the cost, stress, and life-ruining experience of being dragged through the criminal court system.

4. I think Dershowitz has a first-rate legal mind. I strongly disagree with him on nearly all of his foreign policy ideas, but when it comes to criminal defense, Dershowitz is brilliant. His record speaks for itself.

5. Yes, it's true, we have not seen the evidence yet. And of course, I'm always willing to change my mind if some egregious evidence comes out showing that these officers committed crimes. But I'm not seeing that now. It looks like something accidental, or some form of negligence. To me this seems more appropriate for a civil wrongful death action. But I could be wrong.

.

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(This post was last modified: 05-02-2015 08:29 PM by Quintus Curtius.)
05-02-2015 08:23 PM
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Basil Ransom Offline
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Post: #236
RE: Riots In Baltimore After Death In Police Custody
QC:

1. Agreed, I just don't put much weight in public grandstanding one way or the other.

2. You're right - I did a little more searching, and depraved heart murder does seem like a huge leap, given the expanded definition I read (my initial read of Wikipedia had led me to a different conclusion) when it should be some sort of criminal negligence. Dershowitz says that

3. I wasn't advocating the use of nullification in this case. As for the legality of nullification, that's in some dispute among legal experts - it's certainly not without precedent.

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05-02-2015 09:30 PM
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Post: #237
RE: Riots In Baltimore After Death In Police Custody
Going to put my tinfoil hat on and say this may have been the endgame all along:

http://touch.baltimoresun.com/#section/-...-83428119/

Al Sharpton is calling for a march to demand all local police departments be put under federal control.
Somebody please tell me I'm hearing this announcement wrong. I have enough nightmares already to deal with.

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(This post was last modified: 05-02-2015 11:42 PM by ColSpanker.)
05-02-2015 11:39 PM
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Simeon_Strangelight Offline
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Post: #238
RE: Riots In Baltimore After Death In Police Custody
(05-02-2015 11:39 PM)ColSpanker Wrote:  Going to put my tinfoil hat on and say this may have been the endgame all along:

http://touch.baltimoresun.com/#section/-...-83428119/

Al Sharpton is calling for a march to demand all local police departments be put under federal control.
Somebody please tell me I'm hearing this announcement wrong. I have enough nightmares already to deal with.

Hehe - sounds plausible - never let a good crisis go to west, increase the crisis through inaction and then propose something you were after anyway. Centralization of power is always a hallmark of every dictatorship.
05-03-2015 02:01 AM
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Post: #239
RE: Riots In Baltimore After Death In Police Custody
(05-02-2015 12:57 PM)Quintus Curtius Wrote:  Officers are now going to think twice about interceding to help others. They're going to think twice about putting themselves in harm's way. They're going to think twice about entering certain areas. The overall effect of all this will be an increase in lawlessness, disrespect for authority, and resentment.

Quintus' comments are, unsuprisingly, proving especially prescient:

Washington Post

Quote: SOON AFTER the rioting in Baltimore ended in late April, the world’s media turned their gaze elsewhere. Then, as a petulant police force retreated to its station houses, the real carnage began.

May was the most lethal month in the city in more than 40 years; in per capita terms, it may have been the bloodiest month since recordkeeping began.

There were 43 victims of homicide in the city last month, the most since August 1972, when Baltimore ’s population, now 600,000, was about 900,000. In addition, there were 108 nonfatal shootings in May, nearly triple the number recorded the same month last year. Over the three-day Memorial Day weekend alone, the city recorded 32 shootings and nine homicides.

As Baltimore’s streets succumb to the wave of carnage, the police have simply withdrawn, by many accounts. Harassed, hooted at and openly hated in the wake of the arrest of Freddie Gray, whose death in custody triggered the rioting in April, uniformed officers seem to have decided not to do their jobs.

Arrests, already down from 2014 levels before the rioting, have plummeted by more than 50 percent since then. Community leaders in Sandtown — the area where Mr. Gray was arrested — say there is a deliberate effort on the police department’s part to vacate the streets and see how the community likes it.

On Fox News, one officer, his face and voice obscured, explained the cops’ “reasoning.” “After the protests, it seems like the citizens would appreciate a lack of police presence, and that’s exactly what they’re getting,” he said. He went on to blame the city’s leadership for not having officers’ backs and prosecutors for indicting the six police officers in whose custody Mr. Gray was fatally injured.

If the police are determined to degrade their already poisonous relations with the city’s mainly African American communities, they have hit upon an effective strategy. Peevishness seems to have supplanted all sense of duty.

Even Police Commissioner Anthony W. Batts has acknowledged his officers have felt confused and unsupported following the charges filed against the six officers. Implicitly acknowledging the slowdown underway, he said he has asked officers to maintain a “visible and consistent presence” in the city’s neighborhoods.

At the same time, there is no sign that city or state officials are devising any sort of strategy to lift Baltimore from its spiraling sense of despair.

Gov. Larry Hogan ®, having spent a week in Baltimore following the riots, has had little to say about the city since then beyond his insistence on the restoration of public order.

Hogan administration officials say that Keiffer J. Mitchell Jr., an African American and a Democrat from Baltimore who is an aide to the governor, will offer recommendations to promote jobs and opportunity in the city. So far there is no indication of how and when that may happen.

Baltimore must not be allowed to spiral into further despair and violence. Just as the city deserves responsible, proactive policing, it deserves strategic, forward-thinking governance from city and state leaders. Failing that, Baltimore’s failure will become their own.

What's become clear is that the police officers of Baltimore are no longer playing along with the Sophie's Choice of either getting shot or indicted in the line of duty for doing their jobs - and are now starting to refuse to play by standing down. When officers are getting mobbed by crowds of 30-50 people each time they respond to any call at all, they're eventually going to stop bothering.

And, as was so obviously expected, the people that condemned over-policing are now screaming when there's no policing at all.

Spike Lee is currently filming a movie about inner-city violence in Chicago entitled 'Chiraq.' It seriously looks like the future of inner-city America is South-African or Brazilian style slums, with virtual warlords running their own paramilitary militias while the 'police' declare whole neighbourhoods as no-go zones.

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(This post was last modified: 06-03-2015 02:11 AM by HighSpeed_LowDrag.)
06-03-2015 02:01 AM
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Simeon_Strangelight Offline
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Post: #240
RE: Riots In Baltimore After Death In Police Custody
I can't blame them really and I would do the same.

The Baltimore police is like 70%+ black and if the people cannot recognize actual police brutality and cases which can be either way, then they are going to get fucked.

Many of us here deplore the militarization of the police, but I don't think we are so naive to assume that the world is going to be roses if you completely eliminate the police force. Those men are doing a dangerous and important job - it's not their fault that the system is becoming more negative. Accusing the cops for that is like being angry at your vicious guard dog, because he occasionally bites someone he is not supposed to. He is still a guard dog that keeps the really dangerous people out.

Now Baltimore is getting a taste of that medicine.
(This post was last modified: 06-03-2015 02:14 AM by Simeon_Strangelight.)
06-03-2015 02:12 AM
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Post: #241
RE: Riots In Baltimore After Death In Police Custody
(06-03-2015 02:12 AM)Zelcorpion Wrote:  I can't blame them really and I would do the same.

The Baltimore police is like 70%+ black and if the people cannot recognize actual police brutality and cases which can be either way, then they are going to get fucked.

Many of us here deplore the militarization of the police, but I don't think we are so naive to assume that the world is going to be roses if you completely eliminate the police force. Those men are doing a dangerous and important job - it's not their fault that the system is becoming more negative. Accusing the cops for that is like being angry at your vicious guard dog, because he occasionally bites someone he is not supposed to. He is still a guard dog that keeps the really dangerous people out.

Now Baltimore is getting a taste of that medicine.

I don't plan to hold my breath waiting, but it would be nice if one of the community leaders of these communities would come out and say the violence all stems from the lack of respect of men and the lack of fathers in the family.

You hear it from leaders in safer communities time to time, though it is rare. But it is needed now more than ever in these poverty stricken neighborhoods.

Instead though, we will probably get more of the same shit, more govt., more feminism, more failure, more poverty, more hopelessness and more violence.
06-03-2015 04:38 AM
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