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The Ultimate Martial Arts/Combat Sports/Boxing Thread
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Mikan Offline
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RE: The Ultimate Martial Arts/Combat Sports/Boxing Thread
I did about 6 years of Judo as a teenager/young adult. It kept me in shape and made me tough.

Judo is not a martial art, its a set of rules and governing body (Kodokan) for competing in Ju Jitsu as a sport. Judo revolves around competition. The colored belt system used in other martial arts originates in Judo where it was (and still is) used to categorize competitors in tournaments by skill level. If you never compete you will never progress past white belt. Serious Judoka have similar training cycles to boxers or other combat sport competitors, including watching videos of upcoming opponents, traveling to train with top instructors around the country and cutting weight like wrestlers. Almost all top Judo competitors cross train some BJJ now. When I did it (late 90s) there was already a great deal of interest in BJJ as a competitive edge, but unless your were in LA, NYC or Hawaii there were no schools.

If you like grappling sports Judo is fun, although it takes a toll on your joints after a while. If you are more concerned about pure fighting skill you will need to combine it with a live striking art. Western boxing, kick boxing and Thai boxing all combine with Judo very well. One of the toughest people I've ever known in my life was a Judo blackbelt and former golden glove fighter.
(This post was last modified: 07-15-2015 07:40 PM by Mikan.)
07-15-2015 07:39 PM
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RE: The Ultimate Martial Arts/Combat Sports/Boxing Thread
Western boxing should be the basis of any self defense regimen. Even Bruce Lee understood the value of western boxing as a martial art. Jeet Kune Do is mostly a combination of Wing Chun Kung Fu, Western and Filipino Boxing. Spend six months in a boxing gym learning proper punching techniques, defense like parrying, slipping and catch and shoot, good head movement and footwork, with real fighters trying to hurt you. That combined with a reasonable amount of strength, endurance, and athleticism and you will be far ahead of most streetfighters and traditional martial artists. (Note did not say MMA fighters.)

"Time will tell who are the real revolutionaries"-Robert Nesta Marley
07-17-2015 06:27 PM
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cascadecombo Offline
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RE: The Ultimate Martial Arts/Combat Sports/Boxing Thread
(07-13-2015 02:11 PM)Sherman Wrote:  
(07-13-2015 12:02 AM)LINUX Wrote:  It seems like if you want to protect yourself, wrestling would be the best MMA to learn. I was watching a video on liveleak the other day where this guy robbed a store and this kid 70 lbs lighter than him went for his legs, took him down, and laid on top of him until the cops got there.

I was on the wrestling team in high school. It's a good sport and you will know what to do if somebody grabs you. However, pinning your opponents shoulders to the ground isn't a very useful end game for self defense. Learning the BJJ submission holds would be a nice complement.

If you were on the wrestling team in high school and actually stuck with it for more than a few practices you would have learned much more than simply pinning someones shoulders to the ground.

Even the super basic moves like the head and arm throw would be devastating to an opponent when you are on concrete.

Not to mention, my coach taught us stuff that we would never use in an match but could find useful in other instances. Suplex for example and how to properly throw the guy so that his body absorbs the impact while your head remains safe from it plus all the dirty tricks that can cause serious damage if applied fully.

Not to mention, the intensity that you gain from wrestling is not something many other dojos/gyms will teach you as quickly if at all. Being thrown into matches/tournaments is the quickest way to make someone learn how to harness their intensity/pressure. Sparring for 1-2 hours a day on top of conditioning and technique training > a one hour lesson 3 times a week. That's not even including the almost weekly matches/tournaments.


Side note, I am happy to see other people included Judo.
07-17-2015 07:09 PM
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Savoir faire Offline
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RE: The Ultimate Martial Arts/Combat Sports/Boxing Thread
Some somewhat random thoughts on this issue. You could write a book about this, but here are some important considerations

Very hard thing to choose a martial art/self-defense style but the first thing I would ask is "what does this style envisage as constituting a fight/street fight?" One on one? Multiple opponents? Spontaneous explosion or "let's go outside and settle this"?

And what techniques are "allowed"? This second is important because how you train will be pretty much how you fight. If you have trained only with closed fists, then you will never, for example, slap a guy on the top or back of his head with an open hand yet this hand and this target are very often available in fighting.

Once you have that statement, consider whether they have appropriate strategies and training methods. But of course, if you haven't been in the field, how would you be able to answer these questions? Perhaps I can offer some advice about what you would be looking for as a self-defense method.

1) Does it have an explicit overall strategy? Can the teacher explain it?

2) Does it emphasize footwork, flanking and moving, getting to the side or behind the opponent, like the chinese internal styles (bagua xing yi and tai chi) or boxing or aikido?

In fighting, footwork is king. You never want to be immobile or static while within striking range. You should always be moving, at every distance, and you always want to be keeping your centre on them and be moving through their center while their center points elsewhere.

3) Does it attack above and below the waist simultaneously? Are you always taking away the opponents base? An example would be to trip the opponent while at the same time choking him.

4) Is it dual handed? Are both hands coordinated to work in unison?

5) Very importantly, does the approach account for the two important distances in fighting (we assume one on one fighting for the moment).

Distance #1: close-contact (CC). This is the distance where two opponents can touch/kick each other while both are keeping their weight on the back leg. Almost all fighting systems are okayish-to-good at this distance: wrestling, boxing, wing chun, etc.

Distance #2: front foot distance. This is the distance where one of the two opponents must have his weight on his front leg in order to attack the other. This is the distance that many martial arts spar at. It is an absolute disaster to be at this distance for more than the length of time it takes to cross it. Fight/close or fuck off.

Sparring, as usually practised, teaches guys to hang around in this distance, waiting to be knocked out. Remember, the fist or even the back turning kick is often much quicker than the eye.

6) Styles that feature lots of kicking. When we kick, we become immobile, resting on one leg, and vulnerable. If you can kick, you can just as well step into a good position and use your hands, with balance, from a safer position. Most of your "kicking" should in fact be your walking. I can't really explain this here, but your movement though the opponent's center allows you to kick shit out of his base as you go through. (Knees are fine)

7) A lot of fighting is about balance, so a good style will always emphasize trying to take away the other guy's. Pull arms, rip open guards, twist their body, get their weight on one foot, etc. Note how many guys fall over, miss, have no power when they punch. Again, feet in the wrong place.

8) Once you are in there at CC, maintain contact, keep flanking, moving, but also taking the center and the opponent's base and moving forward. Don't break unless you think the other guy is going to get a grip on you and pull you down. Then quickly rejoin attack from a flanked position.

9) Does the style strike while moving or does it most typically strike from a fixed position (e.g., as in ring boxing - no flame of boxing which i am a fan of)?

10) Speed matters, but balance matters more.

11) Trains your flinch response?

12) Good guard positions? In my opinion, almost every guard practiced in popular martial arts is shit, including middle-of-the road boxing. Kick boxing and muay thai often have good strong guards. The question is, can they easily punch through your guard, around it, or tear it away, or just lean on it or hold it? This is a big issue. Hard to give a good example but maybe check out Floyd Mayweather Jr and Dmitry Kovalev and note how they "close the circle" of their arms and use the elbow. I'll stop. Too hard to discuss.

13) Is the teacher a bully or a good guy?

Ok. Enough.
07-31-2015 10:46 PM
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Post: #30
RE: The Ultimate Martial Arts/Combat Sports/Boxing Thread
(07-13-2015 12:23 AM)samsamsam Wrote:  I have been focused on boxing. My gym is 5 bucks a round for mitts. No classes of any sort.

If I ever get into a confrontation, I have been told the one thing to worry about is those who try to tackle,wrestle, to get you on the ground. I have heard of sprawling as technique to defend. Does this video fairly present some useful techniques?





I just don't have time to learn another style of self defense when I have not even figured out the first one. Thanks.

Yes, useful stuff in the video. Thing is that normally the guys who shoot for the throw/takedown are guys who know what they are doing, not the regular bar brawler swinging punches. Even if you can lock a standing guillotine choke, a trained guy will land on top of you in side control.
Better learn some ground game too.
08-01-2015 12:05 AM
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RE: The Ultimate Martial Arts/Combat Sports/Boxing Thread
(07-31-2015 10:46 PM)Savoir faire Wrote:  Some somewhat random thoughts

Your Kung Fu is weak.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl...1qqCw#t=12
08-01-2015 01:34 PM
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Savoir faire Offline
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RE: The Ultimate Martial Arts/Combat Sports/Boxing Thread
@ Mr Looza,

Ha ha ha. In fact, while merely a brief introduction, what I have written here is - without any doubt - the most informed and well-considered contribution on this topic that will ever be made on this site or on any other.

For example, the point defining the two fighting distances provides the basic rationale for every decision made within the internal kung fu styles. Indeed, it is the most powerful analytical starting point for the consideration of any empty-hand fighting strategy.

However, that said, let those hear, who have ears.
08-01-2015 11:18 PM
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cascadecombo Offline
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RE: The Ultimate Martial Arts/Combat Sports/Boxing Thread
(07-31-2015 10:46 PM)Savoir faire Wrote:  6) Styles that feature lots of kicking. When we kick, we become immobile, resting on one leg, and vulnerable. If you can kick, you can just as well step into a good position and use your hands, with balance, from a safer position. Most of your "kicking" should in fact be your walking. I can't really explain this here, but your movement though the opponent's center allows you to kick shit out of his base as you go through. (Knees are fine)

7) A lot of fighting is about balance, so a good style will always emphasize trying to take away the other guy's. Pull arms, rip open guards, twist their body, get their weight on one foot, etc. Note how many guys fall over, miss, have no power when they punch. Again, feet in the wrong place.

I wanna reply to these two together as I just enjoyed watching an amateur MMA tournament. (I was supposed to have taken part in but couldn't due to my mistakes in translating when asking my teacher)

Watching these guys throw kicks left and right with little understanding of how to maintain their own balance had me giggling at the tournament. They tried to use these huge kicks from a distance, throwing themselves off balance to get in range just to fall over on their own half the time. The opponents didn't really take much advantage with these opportunities, but they must have their own reasons for that.
08-02-2015 11:03 PM
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eL-JJ Away
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RE: The Ultimate Martial Arts/Combat Sports/Boxing Thread
(08-02-2015 11:03 PM)cascadecombo Wrote:  
(07-31-2015 10:46 PM)Savoir faire Wrote:  6) Styles that feature lots of kicking. When we kick, we become immobile, resting on one leg, and vulnerable. If you can kick, you can just as well step into a good position and use your hands, with balance, from a safer position. Most of your "kicking" should in fact be your walking. I can't really explain this here, but your movement though the opponent's center allows you to kick shit out of his base as you go through. (Knees are fine)

7) A lot of fighting is about balance, so a good style will always emphasize trying to take away the other guy's. Pull arms, rip open guards, twist their body, get their weight on one foot, etc. Note how many guys fall over, miss, have no power when they punch. Again, feet in the wrong place.

I wanna reply to these two together as I just enjoyed watching an amateur MMA tournament. (I was supposed to have taken part in but couldn't due to my mistakes in translating when asking my teacher)

Watching these guys throw kicks left and right with little understanding of how to maintain their own balance had me giggling at the tournament. They tried to use these huge kicks from a distance, throwing themselves off balance to get in range just to fall over on their own half the time. The opponents didn't really take much advantage with these opportunities, but they must have their own reasons for that.

This is how you punch and kick, true kickboxing is the best, you add some ground game and you are set..


(This post was last modified: 08-03-2015 02:09 AM by eL-JJ.)
08-03-2015 02:08 AM
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RE: The Ultimate Martial Arts/Combat Sports/Boxing Thread
There are a couple of issues with Kyokushin. One is that regular Kyokushin does not include any throws or grappling. In fact, if I understand correctly, you're not even supposed to grab and hold the other guys leg if he kicks you and doesn't withdraw his leg quickly enough. The other problem is that the original Kyokushin organization has split into something like four different organizations, all who claim to be the "true" one, and they're always bickering with each other and putting each other down.

To remedy the problem with the lack of grappling skills, a number of Kyokushin spin-offs have emerged over the years, usually from disaffected Kyokushin practitioners. These include Enshin, Ashihara, Shidokan, Daido Juku, and Seidokaikan. These all feature some form of judo-style grappling and sometimes some ground work. If you want to do full-contact karate and one of these styles is available in your area, I suggest checking them out.

Another type of Karate that hasn't been mentioned is Okinawan, i.e. almost all the styles that end with "-ryu", like Shorin-ryu. Okinawan karate practitioners swear up and down that their styles are the "one, true" karate style. Maybe they are, I don't know. The Okinawan styles have some good techniques, but I would place them somewhere between full contact karate and Shotokan in terms of usefullness to real-world self-defense.

I think Judo is a very underrated martial art. Knowing how to do stand-up grappling is a very useful skill, in my opinion, for real-world self-defense situations.
08-03-2015 03:21 AM
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RE: The Ultimate Martial Arts/Combat Sports/Boxing Thread
(07-13-2015 01:41 PM)CrashBangWallop Wrote:  Actually, so much of this OP is utter rubbish I can't even be bothered to pull it to bits.

I get your point here

Not all the sport listed here grasp the real motive behind the WHY: "the goal of taking combat-sports class"
-Fun (BJJ)
-Practice/Fitness (Boxing arts)
-Real Self defense for security matter (Krav/Kali/JKD/Wing chun/Hapkido/Ju jutsu/Penchak Silat/etc)

A lot of technicalities have not been not take in consideration:
- Age
- Flexibility
- Strength
- Motivation
- Time

Most of the choices proposed here are not accurate and I want to ask you what will happen when:
- As a more than 30yo you'll have to face an opponent 10y younger and more aggressive than you
- As a stiff-as-a-wooden-stick you'll be ask, in class, to perform several high kicks or drills in BJJ
- As BJJ practioner you'll be tell that strength won't get you nowhere near the top and that you need to get rid of those excessives muscles
- As a martial artist you'll have to throw 1000 punchs or 200 hip throws or try 500 the same movement before even getting the proper form
- As a beginner you'll be tell that before getting your black belt/top degree you'll have to wait 12 to 15 years minimum

Now what sport will you propose if you need to get efficient quickly as the thread is about The Ultimate Martial Arts/Combat Sports/Boxing ?

(07-12-2015 11:07 PM)JCIZZLE Wrote:  My gym is 250 a month but world class instruction. Top 10 Gym in the world arguably
[...]
Yeah I forgot to mention it was a BJJ only gym. I think the best bet to check if your gym is a mcdojo or not is to see how well the athletes place in IBJJF or checking on reddit or sherdog.

Don't think that because the gym charge to the max or are listed on site that everybody can modify that there is a correlation with the quality of the teaching, the only question to ask is:
How many champions do those gym have, how many and what are the qualities of those championship those champions have under their belt ?

McDojo phenomenon is related to money (How much they collect each month/year) but not to palmares so if a dojo is pricey, give belt really easily just ask you where things got wrong...

Tell them too much, they wouldn't understand; tell them what they know, they would yawn.
They have to move up by responding to challenges, not too easy not too hard, until they paused at what they always think is the end of the road for all time instead of a momentary break in an endless upward spiral
08-03-2015 04:42 AM
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RE: The Ultimate Martial Arts/Combat Sports/Boxing Thread
(08-03-2015 03:21 AM)Carlos100 Wrote:  I think Judo is a very underrated martial art. Knowing how to do stand-up grappling is a very useful skill, in my opinion, for real-world self-defense situations.

True. Kicks and punches can be devastating for the receiver, but nothing is more than a well applied judo throw against the concrete, the receiver can become crippled for life.
08-03-2015 05:49 AM
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RE: The Ultimate Martial Arts/Combat Sports/Boxing Thread
(08-03-2015 04:42 AM)blck Wrote:  McDojo phenomenon is related to money (How much they collect each month/year) but not to palmares so if a dojo is pricey, give belt really easily just ask you where things got wrong...


People have to make a damn living. Just because a place is expensive doesn't make it a McDojo. No one is going to spend 15 years studying BJJ, winning competitions, becoming a respected black belt, maybe getting their face punched in MMA, forego a 'real' job and start a school, and then charge 50 bucks a month and barely pay their bills every month.
08-03-2015 09:22 AM
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RE: The Ultimate Martial Arts/Combat Sports/Boxing Thread
(08-03-2015 09:22 AM)viajero Wrote:  
(08-03-2015 04:42 AM)blck Wrote:  McDojo phenomenon is related to money (How much they collect each month/year) but not to palmares so if a dojo is pricey, give belt really easily just ask you where things got wrong...


People have to make a damn living. Just because a place is expensive doesn't make it a McDojo. No one is going to spend 15 years studying BJJ, winning competitions, becoming a respected black belt, maybe getting their face punched in MMA, forego a 'real' job and start a school, and then charge 50 bucks a month and barely pay their bills every month.

This is true, but then most boxing gyms are run along these lines, in the UK at least. Very often you will have high level national coaches of pro fighters, or old fighters, etc volunteer their time to train youngsters and competitive fighters and provide a gym for them to train in (for which they usually only pay a peppercorn rent). When I learned to box, my coach made his living coaching top national level pros, and a few European level ones, and then we paid £3/night to come and train. Since there was no rent to speak of, all the money went back into keeping the gym in good order, buying competition equipment, fixing the ring canvas and so on. There were a lot of gyms like this in London when I lived there, and they were turning out top level amateurs across the city.

Not saying that anyone who charges a ton of money is running a McDojo, but equally, many excellent fight gyms in bad areas turning out top competition charge pennies, and get by on local ex fighters and coaches to consistently turn out top quality boxers.

What I can say with confidence is that many excellent, proven fighters that I have boxed with over the years could never have got started in MMA, because the cost of training is so high.
08-03-2015 09:48 AM
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RE: The Ultimate Martial Arts/Combat Sports/Boxing Thread
(08-03-2015 09:48 AM)H1N1 Wrote:  
(08-03-2015 09:22 AM)viajero Wrote:  
(08-03-2015 04:42 AM)blck Wrote:  McDojo phenomenon is related to money (How much they collect each month/year) but not to palmares so if a dojo is pricey, give belt really easily just ask you where things got wrong...


People have to make a damn living. Just because a place is expensive doesn't make it a McDojo. No one is going to spend 15 years studying BJJ, winning competitions, becoming a respected black belt, maybe getting their face punched in MMA, forego a 'real' job and start a school, and then charge 50 bucks a month and barely pay their bills every month.

This is true, but then most boxing gyms are run along these lines, in the UK at least. Very often you will have high level national coaches of pro fighters, or old fighters, etc volunteer their time to train youngsters and competitive fighters and provide a gym for them to train in (for which they usually only pay a peppercorn rent). When I learned to box, my coach made his living coaching top national level pros, and a few European level ones, and then we paid £3/night to come and train. Since there was no rent to speak of, all the money went back into keeping the gym in good order, buying competition equipment, fixing the ring canvas and so on. There were a lot of gyms like this in London when I lived there, and they were turning out top level amateurs across the city.

Not saying that anyone who charges a ton of money is running a McDojo, but equally, many excellent fight gyms in bad areas turning out top competition charge pennies, and get by on local ex fighters and coaches to consistently turn out top quality boxers.

What I can say with confidence is that many excellent, proven fighters that I have boxed with over the years could never have got started in MMA, because the cost of training is so high.


I was about to amend my post with a short bit about how and why boxing is different, but you said it better than me.
08-03-2015 09:54 AM
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RE: The Ultimate Martial Arts/Combat Sports/Boxing Thread
Didn't aim at boxing when I talked about mcDojo, boxing rarely made a gym live because of the amount of time and the dedication put into youngsters.
It obviously take alot of time to create a million-winning champion but the amount of bjj black belt traveling the world settling down everywhere and giving belt to everyone.

There are big name Bjj black belt who charge a lot to give only a stage in third world country.

You got guys who take trip to brazil to get crushed on the mat because they didn't train properly and don't much, they get laughed at when others ask them who give them purple or even brown belt...

You get your belt after have been tested in competition or in open mat, that's the only way to not get a painful reality check when you let an elbow or a shoulder on the mat after trying to execute some technique that only work in mangas.

Tell them too much, they wouldn't understand; tell them what they know, they would yawn.
They have to move up by responding to challenges, not too easy not too hard, until they paused at what they always think is the end of the road for all time instead of a momentary break in an endless upward spiral
08-03-2015 10:50 AM
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RE: The Ultimate Martial Arts/Combat Sports/Boxing Thread
Boxing gets lots of lottery/olympic funding in the UK due to it's Sports Council recognition.

It makes a big difference.
08-03-2015 11:18 AM
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RE: The Ultimate Martial Arts/Combat Sports/Boxing Thread
(08-03-2015 09:48 AM)H1N1 Wrote:  
(08-03-2015 09:22 AM)viajero Wrote:  
(08-03-2015 04:42 AM)blck Wrote:  McDojo phenomenon is related to money (How much they collect each month/year) but not to palmares so if a dojo is pricey, give belt really easily just ask you where things got wrong...


People have to make a damn living. Just because a place is expensive doesn't make it a McDojo. No one is going to spend 15 years studying BJJ, winning competitions, becoming a respected black belt, maybe getting their face punched in MMA, forego a 'real' job and start a school, and then charge 50 bucks a month and barely pay their bills every month.

This is true, but then most boxing gyms are run along these lines, in the UK at least. Very often you will have high level national coaches of pro fighters, or old fighters, etc volunteer their time to train youngsters and competitive fighters and provide a gym for them to train in (for which they usually only pay a peppercorn rent). When I learned to box, my coach made his living coaching top national level pros, and a few European level ones, and then we paid £3/night to come and train. Since there was no rent to speak of, all the money went back into keeping the gym in good order, buying competition equipment, fixing the ring canvas and so on. There were a lot of gyms like this in London when I lived there, and they were turning out top level amateurs across the city.

Not saying that anyone who charges a ton of money is running a McDojo, but equally, many excellent fight gyms in bad areas turning out top competition charge pennies, and get by on local ex fighters and coaches to consistently turn out top quality boxers.

What I can say with confidence is that many excellent, proven fighters that I have boxed with over the years could never have got started in MMA, because the cost of training is so high.

It's not often I disagree with you...this is one time!

My experience is that most of the top "fighting martial arts gyms" in the UK are no different to boxing gyms. In fact lots of them use the very same facilities, hiring boxing gyms a couple of nights per week; and charge the same pittance to train.

At these places, the kids that cannot even afford the £5 per week or whatever are often accommodated on some arrangement; whether it be cleaning the pads or some other excuse for letting them train for free.

I could name 5-10 gyms in my city that this applies to.

These are the only kind of martial arts gyms that cannot make money as commercial entities, due to their locations...usually in relatively deprived areas, exactly like most boxing gyms.

Time are definitely changing in boxing though...the busiest, most successful boxing gyms around here are all ones that have fancy websites offering classes to people with jobs and whatnot. Heavy promotion on the personal training etc. They are just 20 years behind the martial arts industry but catching up fast.


As for trainers making a living...why shouldn't they? I always say to my instructors "You have spent as much time and money on learning this skill as an accountant did at Uni (a little creative licence here)...why shouldn't you be paid the same?".


I've never really understood why people are so vehemently against people making money teaching martial arts but not teaching any other skill. Too many kung fu movies I reckon Big Grin
08-03-2015 11:41 AM
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H1N1 Offline
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Post: #44
RE: The Ultimate Martial Arts/Combat Sports/Boxing Thread
(08-03-2015 11:41 AM)CrashBangWallop Wrote:  
(08-03-2015 09:48 AM)H1N1 Wrote:  
(08-03-2015 09:22 AM)viajero Wrote:  
(08-03-2015 04:42 AM)blck Wrote:  McDojo phenomenon is related to money (How much they collect each month/year) but not to palmares so if a dojo is pricey, give belt really easily just ask you where things got wrong...


People have to make a damn living. Just because a place is expensive doesn't make it a McDojo. No one is going to spend 15 years studying BJJ, winning competitions, becoming a respected black belt, maybe getting their face punched in MMA, forego a 'real' job and start a school, and then charge 50 bucks a month and barely pay their bills every month.

This is true, but then most boxing gyms are run along these lines, in the UK at least. Very often you will have high level national coaches of pro fighters, or old fighters, etc volunteer their time to train youngsters and competitive fighters and provide a gym for them to train in (for which they usually only pay a peppercorn rent). When I learned to box, my coach made his living coaching top national level pros, and a few European level ones, and then we paid £3/night to come and train. Since there was no rent to speak of, all the money went back into keeping the gym in good order, buying competition equipment, fixing the ring canvas and so on. There were a lot of gyms like this in London when I lived there, and they were turning out top level amateurs across the city.

Not saying that anyone who charges a ton of money is running a McDojo, but equally, many excellent fight gyms in bad areas turning out top competition charge pennies, and get by on local ex fighters and coaches to consistently turn out top quality boxers.

What I can say with confidence is that many excellent, proven fighters that I have boxed with over the years could never have got started in MMA, because the cost of training is so high.

It's not often I disagree with you...this is one time!

My experience is that most of the top "fighting martial arts gyms" in the UK are no different to boxing gyms. In fact lots of them use the very same facilities, hiring boxing gyms a couple of nights per week; and charge the same pittance to train.

At these places, the kids that cannot even afford the £5 per week or whatever are often accommodated on some arrangement; whether it be cleaning the pads or some other excuse for letting them train for free.

I could name 5-10 gyms in my city that this applies to.

These are the only kind of martial arts gyms that cannot make money as commercial entities, due to their locations...usually in relatively deprived areas, exactly like most boxing gyms.

Time are definitely changing in boxing though...the busiest, most successful boxing gyms around here are all ones that have fancy websites offering classes to people with jobs and whatnot. Heavy promotion on the personal training etc. They are just 20 years behind the martial arts industry but catching up fast.


As for trainers making a living...why shouldn't they? I always say to my instructors "You have spent as much time and money on learning this skill as an accountant did at Uni (a little creative licence here)...why shouldn't you be paid the same?".


I've never really understood why people are so vehemently against people making money teaching martial arts but not teaching any other skill. Too many kung fu movies I reckon Big Grin

I suppose noone's judgement is perfect Angel

Seriously though, I don't disagree particularly with you here. It's not been my experience of MMA/martial arts, but then I've been out of London for a while, and it's quite possible, probable even, that things have changed since I was heavily involved. Certainly when I boxed here in the South for a year or so, there were no MMA gyms coming into train, but again, times change and I'm happy to accept what you describe as being increasingly true.

I am not against anyone making money teaching MAs, personally (not that your post was aimed at me, particularly). However, I do think that the best places to learn to fight are those run down, bad-land fight gyms, where noone has a pot to piss in. The way you learn to fight there is totally different in my anecdotal experience from the more expensive places that cater to a more yuppy crowd. If you charge £20/hr to someone who wants to learn to fight, and he is a less capable fighter as a result than if he went to learn in a rough gym for £3/2hr session, then I think it is legitimate to question the value of the product. I think when excellent coaching alongside nationally ranked fighters is available for £3/session, the kind of person who chooses to spend £20/hour with a trainer is looking for a sanitised version of the sport, and would likely not fare well in a matchup with his more humble counterparts.

Of course, there is nothing wrong with making money off coaching, or in providing a service that there is demand for. But equally, I don't think anyone who'd trained at Repton, The Lyn, or anywhere of the like would really regard your (not you specifically CBW) boys as being fighters in the same way they are. It's like someone telling me they boxed for their university team. It's all well and good, and I wouldn't be dismissive of it, but I would strongly object to someone trying to suggest the two were equal.
08-03-2015 12:27 PM
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Post: #45
RE: The Ultimate Martial Arts/Combat Sports/Boxing Thread
(08-03-2015 12:27 PM)H1N1 Wrote:  Seriously though, I don't disagree particularly with you here. It's not been my experience of MMA/martial arts, but then I've been out of London for a while, and it's quite possible, probable even, that things have changed since I was heavily involved. Certainly when I boxed here in the South for a year or so, there were no MMA gyms coming into train, but again, times change and I'm happy to accept what you describe as being increasingly true.

I am not against anyone making money teaching MAs, personally (not that your post was aimed at me, particularly). However, I do think that the best places to learn to fight are those run down, bad-land fight gyms, where noone has a pot to piss in. The way you learn to fight there is totally different in my anecdotal experience from the more expensive places that cater to a more yuppy crowd. If you charge £20/hr to someone who wants to learn to fight, and he is a less capable fighter as a result than if he went to learn in a rough gym for £3/2hr session, then I think it is legitimate to question the value of the product. I think when excellent coaching alongside nationally ranked fighters is available for £3/session, the kind of person who chooses to spend £20/hour with a trainer is looking for a sanitised version of the sport, and would likely not fare well in a matchup with his more humble counterparts.

Of course, there is nothing wrong with making money off coaching, or in providing a service that there is demand for. But equally, I don't think anyone who'd trained at Repton, The Lyn, or anywhere of the like would really regard your (not you specifically CBW) boys as being fighters in the same way they are. It's like someone telling me they boxed for their university team. It's all well and good, and I wouldn't be dismissive of it, but I would strongly object to someone trying to suggest the two were equal.

I think it's harder for trainers in MMA to make money off the fighter's fight purses, so they simply have to charge more for training, even if they want to train fighters and not hobbyists.
08-03-2015 01:30 PM
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Pontifex Maximus Offline
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Post: #46
RE: The Ultimate Martial Arts/Combat Sports/Boxing Thread
Does anybody here do Wing Chun? I have a full-contact sparring partner who uses Wing Chun for striking, some assorted Jiu Jitsu moves from his Marine days, and other joint locks he was taught in police academy. He also used to teach Hapkido, but he told me that he thinks it's mystical bullshit.

He has about 5 inches of height on me, but I have about 30 lb. of lean mass. I've done about two years of credible TKD , wrestled in high school, and little boxing. I'm also a few months into Wing Chun and Eskrima.

I have trouble transitioning from long/kicking range into grappling range. My kicks telegraph my intentions too easily, which often gets me taken down. When I close the range to grapple, he counters by pressing my hip and stomping my knee. His sensitivity and space perception is off the charts. It feels like he's a matador that just "lets me"/pushes the bull(me) into the ground. I still need to put in work into lateral quickness, flexibility and a solid ground game, but is there a specific strategy against "soft" martial arts? It doesn't seem like he's outclassing me in physical conditioning or reaction speed, but more of him letting me injure myself by "not being there".

Any input would be helpful. Thanks.
(This post was last modified: 08-03-2015 05:25 PM by Pontifex Maximus.)
08-03-2015 05:25 PM
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Post: #47
RE: The Ultimate Martial Arts/Combat Sports/Boxing Thread
From what I've heard, it's hard for full-time MA instructors to make a living wage. The karate dojo I used to train at charged, if I remember right, about $50 a month for a membership. It had about 15 adult trainees. It charged kids $30 a month and had about 30 kids. So, that's only $1650 in monthly income, before subtracting rent and utilities for the training space. There was usually one "belt test" a month, in which 5-10 students "tested" for their next belt upgrade and paid an additional $15 if I remember right. So, that's an additional $100-200 for the sensei.

So, the sensei in this case was probably only pulling in about 20K a year, at most, from his martial arts instruction. He had to work a part-time job on the side and his wife worked also in order for them to make ends meet.

Just because a MA school charges a lot for instruction, takes on too many students, or moves them quickly along the belt color assembly line (which TKD is infamous for) doesn't necessarily mean it's a "McDojo." MA instructors can have a hard time making a sufficient amount of money to live on, so they do different techniques to get more income.

There are ways to find a good instructor, however, who isn't as worried if he's going to make next month's rent or not. Besides what some of you mentioned above in training with coaches who also work with pro fighters, there are instructors who are retired from their work careers and instruct MA as a hobby. Sometimes those coaches won't even charge for their instruction.
08-03-2015 05:57 PM
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Post: #48
RE: The Ultimate Martial Arts/Combat Sports/Boxing Thread
(08-03-2015 05:57 PM)Carlos100 Wrote:  From what I've heard, it's hard for full-time MA instructors to make a living wage. The karate dojo I used to train at charged, if I remember right, about $50 a month for a membership. It had about 15 adult trainees. It charged kids $30 a month and had about 30 kids. So, that's only $1650 in monthly income, before subtracting rent and utilities for the training space. There was usually one "belt test" a month, in which 5-10 students "tested" for their next belt upgrade and paid an additional $15 if I remember right. So, that's an additional $100-200 for the sensei.

I like how in Japan for example, many Judo dojos (mine included), the teacher(s) run massage therapy, orthopedic clinics or other types of treatment facilities in addition to their dojo. Typically with the national health insurance nearly everyone has any injuries I incur while training are covered with the insurance and my teacher doesn't ask/want anything for the deductible.

I imagine if more people in the states had this sort of set up going the teachers would have an easier time making money while teaching martial arts like they wanted to.
(This post was last modified: 08-03-2015 09:00 PM by cascadecombo.)
08-03-2015 08:59 PM
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Post: #49
RE: The Ultimate Martial Arts/Combat Sports/Boxing Thread
Sounds about right. I'll make some comments on this if I may.

* I have trouble transitioning from long/kicking range into grappling range.

There are two basic distances, Front Foot Distance (FFD), where one of the opponents must move onto the front foot to touch the other, and Close Contact Distance (CCD), where both guys can be weighted on the back foot yet still hurt each other. Without going into details, you want to close only when he is weight forward, because then if he wishes to deal with your closing on him he has fewer options.

You can safely close inside or outside his guard as long as you get your foot behind his (usually) front (weighted ) foot
while simultaneously dealing with his hands/guard (so you don't get hit and so you can fuck him up).

Generally, control his elbow to remove his arms and to stop him folding his arms/elbow/body into you. Generally, you keep your own
elbow pointed down, then, because in that configuration it is controlled by the traps and lats, it becomes very hard for him to move, lift, or knock down.

Proper closing is the ultimate skill because it requires good hand-foot coordination. Before I explain however, allow me to offer an analogy.

The opponent's body is a strategic hill that you wish to capture. However, it is well protected with machine gun defences. These are his arms and legs. Before you can capture the hill you must immobilize or neutralize the arms and legs.

The danger is thus in attacking because to close you must go onto the front foot. It is easy to fuck you up then bcs you have committed to an action. I can easily, for example, parry your arm, let my weight drop onto the back foot, and kick your leg or seize your arm and pull you off balance.

However, you want to capture that hill and it ain't gonna come to you of its own accord. So timing and risk.

In many chinese styles, it is crucial that hands and feet are coordinated. "Hand moves, foot moves" is the rule. So for example, if he is coming onto his front foot, say to punch me, I simultaneously raise an arm, left or right and extend a leg. Say my left forearm meets his left forearm. My left foot passes outside his left foot. My left toes point behind his foot, towards his centre mass. I step in so close to him that my knee position is challenging his balance. Now his front leg can't easily hurt you and his right must punch across his body to get you.

In kung fu styles, once we have arm contact, it is never abandoned. I am sure you have noticed this with your friend. He captures your elbow, right? He slaps your arms away, from inside or outside, overwhelms them, or crosses them? He folds your arms back? Or he enters your zone through the door between elbow and shoulder and as he enters your defences are swept aside?

So what happens now? Lots of things could happen. Why not pivot on your front (left) leg and swing the right around. See, you've flanked him. You still have contact with his arms. Maintain that. Control him. Attack with your other arm. But stay upright, don't flinch, and don't stop moving through his center line while flanking. The rotation of your movement alone should fuck him up and send him tumbling.

With the background he has, your friend might teach you the exercises you need to get the hand skills i am talking about here. Otherwise, as general advice you should think more about where you want your feet to be, not about how you will hit or kick him.

Best training method for this is bagua, in particular circle walking with mud stepping. But that is talking about commitment.

* My kicks telegraph my intentions too easily, which often gets me taken down.

Stop kicking from FFD. The general goal is to get your feet behind his feet. And never stop moving. Your friend will hate it.

And always control/overwhelm his arms as you come in.

* Is there a specific strategy against "soft" martial arts?

No. There is no such strategy. You just have to learn that stuff yourself. If you want a quick "in" then find someone who is good at tai chi "double push hands". Careful, lots of frauds and fakes and stupid new age types out there.

If you find someone who will teach you that and practice with you, then a year of an hour a day will make you pretty much an unpinnable ghost. If you find someone, tell me and i will write you up some notes on what you should be learning (see if he is a fraud). You can also look for a video from the 1980s on push hands by the much-maligned Erle Montagu (RIP) doing push hands on top of a building in Sydney. Again, I can send you notes.

Note in this connection how that the soft styles of kungfu have no "how to get out of a headlock" training bcs 1) instead they train "how to never let anyone put you into that position" 2) instead they apply general principles rather than specific tactics can get you out of those types of things.

* It doesn't seem like he's outclassing me in physical conditioning or reaction speed, but more of him letting me injure myself by "not being there".

The Chinese internal martial arts are a fucking freak show. At the top levels they are so advanced it makes the western stuff look like a complete joke. But you'll rarely see it. My teacher in Hong Kong, a very senior kung fu establishment guy well known across China, once showed my some incredible cell phone video he had of triad bodyguard training in Taiwan. Man, gi-fucking-gantic Chinese guy who moved with such force and power but at the same time lightfooted as a gazelle. Unfortunately it was kind of his private kung fu porn collection and he wouldn't give me a copy. Scary impressive.

About some things the chinese are extraordinary perfectionists.
08-04-2015 02:25 AM
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Post: #50
RE: The Ultimate Martial Arts/Combat Sports/Boxing Thread
(08-03-2015 05:25 PM)Pontifex Maximus Wrote:  Does anybody here do Wing Chun? I have a full-contact sparring partner who uses Wing Chun for striking, some assorted Jiu Jitsu moves from his Marine days, and other joint locks he was taught in police academy. He also used to teach Hapkido, but he told me that he thinks it's mystical bullshit.

He has about 5 inches of height on me, but I have about 30 lb. of lean mass. I've done about two years of credible TKD , wrestled in high school, and little boxing. I'm also a few months into Wing Chun and Eskrima.

I have trouble transitioning from long/kicking range into grappling range. My kicks telegraph my intentions too easily, which often gets me taken down. When I close the range to grapple, he counters by pressing my hip and stomping my knee.

Any input would be helpful. Thanks.

From what I've studied wing chun is really dangerous when you enter in the opponent personal space (arm length) but only use percussions, the fact that you switch legs to kick create an unbalance that communicate your intentions, you don't have that in wing chun kicks as wing chun is based working from the center line so anything coming from the side is blessed for a WC practitioner.




Remember the Anderson Silva/Vitor Belfort fight ?
Just look how strong and fast the kick went in his face just because it came from the straight line, that's the basics behind WC




(08-03-2015 05:25 PM)Pontifex Maximus Wrote:  His sensitivity and space perception is off the charts. It feels like he's a matador that just "lets me"/pushes the bull(me) into the ground. I still need to put in work into lateral quickness, flexibility and a solid ground game, but is there a specific strategy against "soft" martial arts? It doesn't seem like he's outclassing me in physical conditioning or reaction speed, but more of him letting me injure myself by "not being there".

Human Chess: Same principle used in Aikido or BJJ or any other martial arts that use the force of the opponent: Create a void as a feint to let the opponent think he got something to work with and then counter him



Tell them too much, they wouldn't understand; tell them what they know, they would yawn.
They have to move up by responding to challenges, not too easy not too hard, until they paused at what they always think is the end of the road for all time instead of a momentary break in an endless upward spiral
08-04-2015 02:50 AM
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