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Volkswagon Emissions Scandal and German self loathing
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The Beast1 Offline
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Volkswagon Emissions Scandal and German self loathing
Am I the only one who doesn't care about the whole Volkswagon emission cheating debacle?

I've been seeing articles about how this scandal has brought great shame to Germany and how the name, "Made in Germany" can no longer be trusted.

Are you kidding me? So what if Volkswagon cheated on their emissions testing. Arguably the least important and most annoying aspect of automobiles is its emissions test which need I remind everyone not only takes away performance but fuel economy as well.

What other things does VW do well?
1. Build f*cking 250K+ mile machines that don't fail.
2. Are among the safest cars in the industry.
3. Manage to create powerful and fuel efficient vehicles when we should be building vehicles that source multiple fuels instead of just gasoline.
4. Live up to the "People's Car" name and are affordable to the masses.
5. Look decent, are comfortable, and ride well.

I'm not even a Volkswagon fanboy at all! I prefer Mercs anyday. However all this self immulation from this event from German media and its citizens disgust me. As a German American to real Germans, calm the f*ck down. Mistakes were made, patch it, pay the fine, move on.

Do you think the BP Gulf disaster brought great shame to the English people?

"The phrase petroleum and fish n chips will be synonymous with one another."

Germany is lost.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswag...violations
(This post was last modified: 09-27-2015 06:11 PM by The Beast1.)
09-27-2015 06:10 PM
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RE: Volkswagon Emissions Scandal and German self loathing
Affordable? I'm sure you never owned or repaired a VW.

They're expensive to fix, and not that reliable. Between crappy Honda engines and Powerstrokes, it's hard to find a reliable brand nowadays.

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09-27-2015 06:15 PM
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The Lizard of Oz Offline
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RE: Volkswagon Emissions Scandal and German self loathing
Of course not. It's just another out of control SJW campaign of disgusting Gaia-guilting and shaming.

I felt a tinge of pride in the fact that the stolid German geezers who run that company actually had the moxie to try to cheat on these meaningless "standards" to get their hands on some tasty "green car" subsidies. It didn't work out and now they have to pay the price but there is certainly no shame in it.

same old shit, sixes and sevens Shaft...
09-27-2015 06:23 PM
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RE: Volkswagon Emissions Scandal and German self loathing
Don't worry guys, the next CEO will be an illegal immigrant and then everything will be fixed.

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09-27-2015 06:32 PM
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RE: Volkswagon Emissions Scandal and German self loathing
[Image: 7d7f252898496447dda4889bab0e57ba-d5sgew2.jpg]

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09-27-2015 06:33 PM
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Dr. Howard Online
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RE: Volkswagon Emissions Scandal and German self loathing
(09-27-2015 06:10 PM)The Beast1 Wrote:  Am I the only one who doesn't care about the whole Volkswagon emission cheating debacle?

I've been seeing articles about how this scandal has brought great shame to Germany and how the name, "Made in Germany" can no longer be trusted.

Are you kidding me? So what if Volkswagon cheated on their emissions testing. Arguably the least important and most annoying aspect of automobiles is its emissions test which need I remind everyone not only takes away performance but fuel economy as well.

What other things does VW do well?
1. Build f*cking 250K+ mile machines that don't fail.
2. Are among the safest cars in the industry.
3. Manage to create powerful and fuel efficient vehicles when we should be building vehicles that source multiple fuels instead of just gasoline.
4. Live up to the "People's Car" name and are affordable to the masses.
5. Look decent, are comfortable, and ride well.

I'm not even a Volkswagon fanboy at all! I prefer Mercs anyday. However all this self immulation from this event from German media and its citizens disgust me. As a German American to real Germans, calm the f*ck down. Mistakes were made, patch it, pay the fine, move on.

Do you think the BP Gulf disaster brought great shame to the English people?

"The phrase petroleum and fish n chips will be synonymous with one another."

Germany is lost.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswag...violations

I agree, the only thing this scandal said to me is "Probably a good time to buy a VW if I was debating it, prices should be down"

Why do the heathen rage and the people imagine a vain thing? Psalm 2:1 KJV
09-27-2015 06:36 PM
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RE: Volkswagon Emissions Scandal and German self loathing
I am sure the hordes of brilliant Syrian engineers will help to solve it.

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09-27-2015 06:38 PM
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RE: Volkswagon Emissions Scandal and German self loathing
I bet a lot of companies do things like this. They were just caught with their hand in the cookie jar.
09-27-2015 06:40 PM
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floor7 Offline
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RE: Volkswagon Emissions Scandal and German self loathing
The perception between VW's in the US and the rest of the world is stunning. The RTW feels that VW's are excellent vehicles that are quite reliable whereas the US market dislikes them immensely due to the unreliability and terrible dealers.

I'm in the minority on RvF when it comes to environmental issues though - that I'm sure of. Emissions is an issue - places like LA used to be disgusting with smog laden air. Paris has huge issues with this which is why France was the transition away from diesel.

Lastly, it isn't like there isn't a solution to the issue - Merc diesels and most bmw diesels seem to be "ok", but the lower displacement VW diesels aren't because VW decided to cut costs by not putting a urea system on their 2 liters.
09-27-2015 07:03 PM
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The Lizard of Oz Offline
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RE: Volkswagon Emissions Scandal and German self loathing
(09-27-2015 07:03 PM)floor7 Wrote:  I'm in the minority on RvF when it comes to environmental issues though - that I'm sure of. Emissions is an issue - places like LA used to be disgusting with smog laden air. Paris has huge issues with this which is why France was the transition away from diesel.

Emissions used to be a real problem decades ago (and of course it was predicted by "experts" at the time that it would get worse and worse) but the problem has largely been solved. No one talks about smog in LA anymore.

Moreover, the move into these diesel cars -- still a tiny percentage of the market in the US -- has been actively encouraged by the government because of CO2 greenhouse gas hysteria, with all kinds of subsidies lavished on companies that could make "clean diesel" cars (which are in fact much dirtier in terms of emissions that matter than regular gasoline cars, but were preferred because they emitted a little more harmless carbon dioxide). These idiotic "green car" subsidies created the incentives for VW to cheat on the emissions tests so that they could sell their diesel cars in the US.

same old shit, sixes and sevens Shaft...
09-27-2015 07:19 PM
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Easy_C Offline
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RE: Volkswagon Emissions Scandal and German self loathing
(09-27-2015 07:03 PM)floor7 Wrote:  The perception between VW's in the US and the rest of the world is stunning. The RTW feels that VW's are excellent vehicles that are quite reliable whereas the US market dislikes them immensely due to the unreliability and terrible dealers.

There's a reason for that perception in the US: a lot of the engines for American market VW's are made in Mexico.
09-27-2015 08:52 PM
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IvanDrago Offline
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RE: Volkswagon Emissions Scandal and German self loathing
This is old news. This all came out last year, and it is not just VW and Mercedes who do this. The timing of this "breaking news" is suspect considering all of the other BS going on in the EU recently.



(This post was last modified: 09-27-2015 09:25 PM by IvanDrago.)
09-27-2015 09:24 PM
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RE: Volkswagon Emissions Scandal and German self loathing
The VW cars made in Mexico are for export to other Latin American Markets, the US VW cars are imported from Germany.

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09-27-2015 09:32 PM
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porscheguy Offline
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RE: Volkswagon Emissions Scandal and German self loathing
1. VW cars built in Mexico are sold in the US and elsewhere. In fact, what you're likely to see on a new VW is a sticker that says where the drivetrain was built, and the location of final assembly. So you can buy a car with final assembly in Mexico, but an engine and transmission built in Hungary.
2. VWs are not particularly reliable vehicles. I've owned one. I own a Porsche (which is currently owned by VW and has always had a close relationship to the company.)
3. They're not at all cheap to repair.
4. The only powerstroke engines that are troublesome are the 6.0s. I've seen 7.3 powerstrokes in fleet WORK trucks with 600K+ miles on the clock.

VW fucked up, they should have their asses kicked, and here's why.
The three main components in diesel exhaust are:
1. Hydrocarbons - These are converted to CO2 and water by the catalytic converters that diesels now use.
2. Carbon monoxide (CO)- Converted to CO2 in the catalytic converter.
3. Nitrogen Oxide (NOx)- This is what got VW into trouble and I'll explain how it works and how it's normally resolved.

The first step in reducing exhaust emissions is by maximizing engine efficiency. This means making sure the absolute correct amount of fuel is sent into the combustion chamber for COMPLETE burning. To get your initial reduction in hydrocarbons and CO2, you basically need to run the engine as lean as possible, but rich enough to avoid pings, and detonation. Aside from pings and detonation, the other problem that arises as the fuel is leaned out, is that combustion chamber temperatures will rise. This rise in temperature causes an increase in the last emissions component called NOx.

The step to combating NOx emissions is through an EGR(Exhaust Gas Recirculation) system which most gasoline engines have been using for decades. What this system does is takes some exhaust from the exhaust manifold or through a passage in the cylinder head and loops it back around and reintroduces it into the intake manifold to get cycled through the combustion process once more. Why? For combustion purposes, the rerouted exhaust gas is essentially an inert compound. When it first comes out of the engine, it's under pressure and hot as fuck. When released into the intake manifold, it goes from being under pressure, to rapid decompression as the intake is usually in a state of vacuum. Rapid compression produces heat, and rapid decompression sheds heat. So once it's released into the intake it sheds the excess heat and travels into the combustion chamber. In the combustion chamber this exhaust gas absorbs excess heat. This helps reduce pinging, detonation, knock and the production of NOx.

The downside of EGR systems is that the exhaust gas takes up space that could be used for air and fuel. So some argue that it can reduce power output, although that's negligible at best, because if you're pinging/knocking and the knock sensor picks it up, it will retard the timing heavily which will reduce power much more than the EGR. Another more realistic downside is that all EGR systems will develop carbon build up in the EGR passages and they will lose effectiveness. Due to the high carbon nature of diesel engines (i.e. high soot), this problem is multiplied several times over and early diesel EGR systems were known to be a major headache that did actually reduce power output, fuel economy, and were rather unreliable.

The final method of NOx reduction in diesel engines is through the use of urea injection. Yes one of the main components in piss. Many new diesels have a urea injection system plumbed into the exhaust. It requires the use of diesel exhaust fluid which is made of deionized water and urea. And the rest from wiki:
Quote:Diesel exhaust fluid (DEF) from a separate tank is injected into the exhaust pipeline, where the aqueous urea vaporizes and decomposes to form ammonia and carbon dioxide. Within the SCR catalyst, the NOx are catalytically reduced by the ammonia (NH3) into water (H2O) and nitrogen (N2), which are both harmless; and these are then released through the exhaust.

VW wanted to pretend that NOx emissions could be reduced on their smaller diesels without a piss injection system. They couldn't, but instead of saying fuck it, this will take more time, they instead declared that they solved the mystery of clean diesel, fudged the software, and shipped the vehicles. Mazda has also been working on this problem and they haven't released a diesel yet because they can't seem to figure it out.

For the life of me, I can't figure out why they were so hellbent on this. Even their 6 cylinder diesels have piss injection. This is going to cost them a lot more in the long run and it should. They knowingly lied and committed fraud due to arrogance. 8 years ago they were on the verge of being purchased by Porsche. Thanks to a last minute recession they turned the tables and bought Porsche. In the ensuing years they rose to becoming the world's largest automaker just this year. With this turn of events, they've damaged their reputation for years to come. Even worse, they harmed the reputation of diesel powered vehicles in general. This sucks for us in the US because IMO diesel is the choice for fuel efficiency. Electric vehicles suck and really aren't that clean when you consider the amount of coal that must be burned to produce enough electricity to charge one, and the environmental ass raping that takes place in order to produce the thousands of 18650 cells used to power a Tesla. Gas/electric hybrids are exceedingly complex and yield inconsistent economy at best. But I've seen guys with F350s that have utility bodies, 7.3 powerstroke, 350K on the clock, weigh 8-9000lbs and they're getting 23mpg. My old 1/2 Chevrolet with a gas 350 weighs half as much and never gets more than 16mpg. Fuck VW.
09-28-2015 01:05 AM
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The Beast1 Offline
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RE: Volkswagon Emissions Scandal and German self loathing
(09-27-2015 06:15 PM)Cattle Rustler Wrote:  Affordable? I'm sure you never owned or repaired a VW.

They're expensive to fix, and not that reliable. Between crappy Honda engines and Powerstrokes, it's hard to find a reliable brand nowadays.

I had an 06 Volkswagon TDI Diesel that was apart of the family stable before I graduated college that was apart of my maintenance regiment.

Compared to my Merc at the time, it was not only comparable but just as easy to maintain. Even my parts website (peachparts.com) had everything I needed after market and OE to keep the car going. Bugger is still going at 190,000 miles.

CR, i'm assuming you do your own work on your vehicles. If you're taking a car to a mechanic, well Undecided

(09-27-2015 07:19 PM)The Lizard of Oz Wrote:  
(09-27-2015 07:03 PM)floor7 Wrote:  I'm in the minority on RvF when it comes to environmental issues though - that I'm sure of. Emissions is an issue - places like LA used to be disgusting with smog laden air. Paris has huge issues with this which is why France was the transition away from diesel.

Emissions used to be a real problem decades ago (and of course it was predicted by "experts" at the time that it would get worse and worse) but the problem has largely been solved. No one talks about smog in LA anymore.

Moreover, the move into these diesel cars -- still a tiny percentage of the market in the US -- has been actively encouraged by the government because of CO2 greenhouse gas hysteria, with all kinds of subsidies lavished on companies that could make "clean diesel" cars (which are in fact much dirtier in terms of emissions that matter than regular gasoline cars, but were preferred because they emitted a little more harmless carbon dioxide). These idiotic "green car" subsidies created the incentives for VW to cheat on the emissions tests so that they could sell their diesel cars in the US.

The "smog" problem in LA was in the early to mid 20th century was because of LA's industrial base. Los Angeles used to be a major manufacturing hub. Steel mills, car manufacturers, tool and dye, etc. now since everyone has migrated over to soft work and the factories were shipped abroad the problem went away.

It's a conveniently forgotten fact and everyone likes to blame the automobile for the smog problem. Let us also not forget that trash incinerators were legal up until the end of the 50s.

Beijing's ( the popular smog city du jeur) problem is caused by industrial pollution (ie factories), most notably cheap burning coal. Not it's millions of automobiles.

Cars barely scratch the surface when it comes to pollution. The real problem is caused by industrial output.
09-28-2015 03:44 AM
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RE: Volkswagon Emissions Scandal and German self loathing
This whole problem can be traced back to the Kyoto agreement.

Which is another example of Europe self flagellating itself.
09-28-2015 04:14 AM
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RE: Volkswagon Emissions Scandal and German self loathing
Quote:it's hard to find a reliable brand nowadays

How many years have you been driving? I remember you posting you were still driving your moms minivan.

VW cars are junk, not the old ones but anything after the 90s.

Mercedes also builds junk. Probably not the stripped down ones in europe but what they send here is.

I can't even begin to tell you guys how bad they are.

About this emission thing...

VW should have just said the programming was for traffic conditions. They could have blamed the rest on US diesel and testing conditions.

Idiots.
09-28-2015 09:20 AM
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RE: Volkswagon Emissions Scandal and German self loathing
German cars are overpriced and engineered.









etc...
09-28-2015 09:27 AM
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RE: Volkswagon Emissions Scandal and German self loathing
No offense to rvf posters who drive VW's but i've never heard of anyone who is a gear head who actually respects modern VWs. Even back when I was into cars VW had a reputation for lemons and being finnicky. Maybe that reputation has changed I don't know.

Growing up in CA the VWs I saw were almost exclusively driven by <25 year old women from the suburbs or others deep into that lifestyle. In college it was all sorority types. All these types preferred golf, jettas, or passats.
09-28-2015 09:46 AM
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RE: Volkswagon Emissions Scandal and German self loathing
(09-28-2015 03:44 AM)The Beast1 Wrote:  I had an 06 Volkswagon TDI Diesel that was apart of the family stable before I graduated college that was apart of my maintenance regiment.

Compared to my Merc at the time, it was not only comparable but just as easy to maintain. Even my parts website (peachparts.com) had everything I needed after market and OE to keep the car going. Bugger is still going at 190,000 miles.

CR, i'm assuming you do your own work on your vehicles. If you're taking a car to a mechanic, well Undecided

All you've done here is point out one exception to his statement that VWs are not generally all that reliable or cheap to maintain. This doesn't disprove his statement.

Worse, you then try to shame him for having his car worked on by a mechanic. Having a car worked on by a mechanic has next to zero relevance as to that brand's reliability.

His statement seems to be backed up by at least this source as well as El Mech who is basically the forum mechanic and he actually sees a large volume of cars instead of one example.

Quote:A History Of Questionable Reliability

For much of the past decade, Volkswagen has been plagued with powertrain reliability issues in the high-volume four- and five-cylinder engines that power Passat, Jettas, and other VW products, according to Consumer Reports.
In the past few years, the automaker has made significant strides in quality and recieved high marks from reviewers at the publication.

Still, there seems to be a stigma that lingers in the minds of mass-market shoppers who place a premium on reliability. This stigma is further enforced by publications like JD Power's 2014 initial quality and vehicle dependability surveys, where VW scored below industry average in both.

(09-28-2015 03:44 AM)The Beast1 Wrote:  The "smog" problem in LA was in the early to mid 20th century was because of LA's industrial base. Los Angeles used to be a major manufacturing hub. Steel mills, car manufacturers, tool and dye, etc. now since everyone has migrated over to soft work and the factories were shipped abroad the problem went away.

It's a conveniently forgotten fact and everyone likes to blame the automobile for the smog problem. Let us also not forget that trash incinerators were legal up until the end of the 50s.

Beijing's ( the popular smog city du jeur) problem is caused by industrial pollution (ie factories), most notably cheap burning coal. Not it's millions of automobiles.

Cars barely scratch the surface when it comes to pollution. The real problem is caused by industrial output.

Do you have some statistics that show this to be the case? I would tend to agree.

Looking at this source, at the surface it appears that transportation makes up for 27% of emissions, but that includes ships and trucks. I'd love to see the breakdown for how much of that is passenger cars.

http://www3.epa.gov/climatechange/ghgemi...urces.html

Either way, emissions standards for industry as well as passenger cars are a good thing. Problems arise when we implement policies that don't have a high bang for the buck or said another way, when we focus on stringent emissions where the least amount of output is (which may be the case here).

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09-28-2015 03:13 PM
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RE: Volkswagon Emissions Scandal and German self loathing
(09-27-2015 09:24 PM)IvanDrago Wrote:  This is old news. This all came out last year, and it is not just VW and Mercedes who do this. The timing of this "breaking news" is suspect considering all of the other BS going on in the EU recently.




Exactly!

This is an outright attack on the German car industry which is the backbone and pride of the German economy. And the German economy is the engine of the EU economy. The consequences of this could be huge for all of us.

If VW and the rest needed to fake the emissions tests, then that means that the emissions targets were unrealistic in the first place.

But why now?

Germany and US disagree on Russia in Syria

Quote:German FM Steinmeier said Sunday in Berlin "I strongly welcome ... Russia's growing military engagement" in Syria. His US counterpart, Kerry, noted Russian protection of Syrian leader Al-Assad "risks the possibility of attracting more extremists and of entrenching" the regime, which cannot "ever unite or govern a peaceful Syria".

Plus, this video explains a lot

George Friedman, "Europe: Destined for Conflict?"





See full conference here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeLu_yyz3tc
(This post was last modified: 09-28-2015 04:12 PM by WildBoar.)
09-28-2015 04:07 PM
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RE: Volkswagon Emissions Scandal and German self loathing
Hey, the new guy gets it.
09-28-2015 04:10 PM
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RE: Volkswagon Emissions Scandal and German self loathing
I call BS.. Germany is being SLAPPED for something else like closing borders perhaps?
Or could this have something to do with VW becoming the number one auto maker very recently.


BTW great fucking cars. If they really have fallen in value and anyone needs a fuel sipping kraut box get one now.
I have had many.
(This post was last modified: 09-28-2015 04:13 PM by Off The Reservation.)
09-28-2015 04:12 PM
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RE: Volkswagon Emissions Scandal and German self loathing
(09-28-2015 04:10 PM)IvanDrago Wrote:  Hey, the new guy gets it.

And he has an awesome username too!

High five, my animal bro!

Highfive

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09-28-2015 04:45 PM
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Post: #25
RE: Volkswagon Emissions Scandal and German self loathing
(09-28-2015 03:13 PM)AneroidOcean Wrote:  
(09-28-2015 03:44 AM)The Beast1 Wrote:  I had an 06 Volkswagon TDI Diesel that was apart of the family stable before I graduated college that was apart of my maintenance regiment.

Compared to my Merc at the time, it was not only comparable but just as easy to maintain. Even my parts website (peachparts.com) had everything I needed after market and OE to keep the car going. Bugger is still going at 190,000 miles.

CR, i'm assuming you do your own work on your vehicles. If you're taking a car to a mechanic, well Undecided

All you've done here is point out one exception to his statement that VWs are not generally all that reliable or cheap to maintain. This doesn't disprove his statement.

Worse, you then try to shame him for having his car worked on by a mechanic. Having a car worked on by a mechanic has next to zero relevance as to that brand's reliability.

His statement seems to be backed up by at least this source as well as El Mech who is basically the forum mechanic and he actually sees a large volume of cars instead of one example.

Parts are cheap as is evidenced by the link I posted. I don't need to post extra info because the information is in the link. You can see the actual cost of buying parts outright.

Second, mechanics are going to rip you off period. I've seen enough half assed repairs in my time as a hobbyist mechanic to tell me that I will never take my car to another mechanic again. Some mistakes not so dangerous, others incredibly dangerous.

If you're going to own a car, be a man and learn how to fix it. Don't whine about cost of ownership when you take it to a mechanic. Cars are highly intricate beasts that require an understanding of how it works to safely use them. Blindly trusting someone is a recipe for disaster.

Third, to get the most out of my vehicles I join "enthusiast" websites to get the most out of them. When it comes to reliability, i'll take the opinion of several shade tree mechanics over someone who reads some article and claims they suck.

Consumer Reports is one of the worst resources to use for any car buyer. The fact that they have had a love affair with Tesla is more than enough to prove to me that they're nothing more than paid shills.

My personal resource for maintaining the car was here
http://forums.tdiclub.com/
They provided everything I needed to get anything fixed.

I knew that car in and out and knew what to expect when things started going wrong. They got replaced. When you know how a car works, you avoid frivolous expenses and unnecessary repairs.
(This post was last modified: 09-28-2015 04:48 PM by The Beast1.)
09-28-2015 04:47 PM
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