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Market starting to agree uni degrees ain't worth shit
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Paracelsus Offline
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Post: #1
Market starting to agree uni degrees ain't worth shit
http://www.news.com.au/finance/work/care...302c8d0cc5

Quote:BIG employers are going cold on university degrees, leaving students and jobseekers to wonder

if their qualifications are worth the investment and extra study.

This week, international publishing house Penguin Random House decided to drop degrees as a requirement for job applicants, following in the footsteps of major consulting firms Ernst and Young and PricewaterhouseCoopers.

The move comes as smaller employers are shifting away from hiring graduates or university students, believing kids are coming out of university with “no real skills” or simply being taught the wrong things.

Penguin hasn’t been so harsh, saying the shift in requirements is simply a move “to make publishing far, far more inclusive than it has been to date”.

“While graduates remain welcome to apply for jobs, not having been through higher education will no longer preclude anyone from joining,” a statement from the publisher confirmed.

“Simply if you’re talented and you have potential, we want to hear from you.”

Sidebar here: Penguin Random House can easily open their field to non-university applicants because publishers actually know fuck-all about publishing or selling books. I've heard it time and again from people employed in Big Publishing that 7 out of 10 of the books they accept and promote for publishing either don't make their money back or only break even. Any other business model with that failure rate would not have survived its first five years, and the only reason Big Publishing does is because of the oligarchy of the Big Six combined with exploitative contracts against their authors.

Put it this way, Jackie Kennedy was made an editor at a Big Publishing house. What were her qualifications? None. She was basically the same as Michelle Obama: hired for the prestige of her name and contributing fuck all to the actual business, insofar as there is one.

Anyway:

Quote:But it’s still a scary prospect for higher education providers, a welcome relief from stressed out students or those who didn’t get the grades for the course they wanted, and a source of endless frustration for over-qualified graduates.

The value of tertiary education has consistently decreased in Australia over the past decade.

Graduate employment is the lowest it’s been since the 1992-93 recession.

The 2015 Graduate Careers Australia survey showed more than a quarter of bachelor degree graduates had failed to find work within four months of completing their studies. The money they’re being paid is on the slide, too, with university graduate salaries going down.

Meanwhile, soft skills, such as being personable, adaptable, possessing strong digital skills, and adept at time management are being increasingly valued.

Maggie Stilwell, managing partner for talent at Ernst and Young, which did away with academic and education details in its application process, said the new recruiting strategy would “open up opportunities or talented individuals regardless of their background and provide greater access to the profession”.

While the growing culture of qualification-ignorant hiring is being spun positively by the companies enforcing it, it’s hard not to see it as a slight on universities too.

In an earlier interview with news.com.au Australia Chamber of Commerce and Industry chief executive officer Kate Carnell said employers found 20-somethings were more qualified than ever before. Graduates were showing up to work with degrees from universities but were “disconnected with the workforce”, she said.

“A number of our members consistently tell us they’re seeing students come out of university or training programs and they might have the academic or theoretical skills, but no skills to work at all. It makes them really hard to employ,” she said.

General issues are not understanding that a job is about turning up on time every day, not just when you feel like, that it’s about taking direction, and basic things like you’ve got to be well presented and you’ve got to be pleasant.

I'm suspecting there's an awful lot of female Gender Studies or Arts degrees in this mix that nobody wants to talk about. After all, don't feminists love to point out that more women are graduating from university than men?

That aside, I'm going to restrain myself from doing the whole These Damn Kids routine, but this level of failure to understand what a job entails astounds me. It's on the same level as not wiping your arse after going to the toilet. But responsibility for this sort of idiocy I lay at the feet of their narcissistic parents and the brainwashing of their educations.

Quote:Speaking with ABC radio, Deakin University deputy vice-chancellor Beverley Oliver said universities weren’t bothered.

“I think it’s a good thing. I think credentials are things we all look for; they’re signals. We look for experience or a degree completed or a course,” she said.

“This message has been loud and clear for some time to higher education providers. I think the sector has made great changes over the last 15 years, particularly making sure the degree is a signifier of a more than just marks and grades.”

Of course universities aren't bothered. They turn out these malfunctioning robots, they don't have to employ them. But it's interesting to see that the market is finally starting to respond -- as it always does and always will, world without end amen -- to grade and qualification inflation in the field of higher learning.

Remissas, discite, vivet.
God save us from people who mean well. -storm
(This post was last modified: 01-22-2016 09:09 PM by Paracelsus.)
01-22-2016 09:06 PM
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Disco_Volante Offline
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Post: #2
RE: Market starting to agree uni degrees ain't worth shit
It's far more efficient for corporations to have their own training programs then filter out who doesn't meet their standards. Casinos have their own training programs to be a dealer that's open to most anyone.

Imagine you could invite a large pool of recent high school graduates, narrow down the ones you like, and pay them a shit wage to train them on
Microsoft excel, accounting software, and whatever other shit you want them to know.

then after a year you have a 19 yr old employee who knows every skill you want them to, instead of paying more for a college graduate whom you're not sure knows all the software skills you want them to.
01-22-2016 09:17 PM
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Paracelsus Offline
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RE: Market starting to agree uni degrees ain't worth shit
(01-22-2016 09:17 PM)Disco_Volante Wrote:  It's far more efficient for corporations to have their own training programs then filter out who doesn't meet their standards. Casinos have their own training programs to be a dealer that's open to most anyone.

Imagine you could invite a large pool of recent high school graduates, narrow down the ones you like, and pay them a shit wage to train them on
Microsoft excel, accounting software, and whatever other shit you want them to know.

then after a year you have a 19 yr old employee who knows every skill you want them to, instead of paying more for a college graduate whom you're not sure knows all the software skills you want them to.

Also has a sinister side: if they only teach you the skills you need to know to do that job, you have less portability and you're less likely to go anywhere else.

Remissas, discite, vivet.
God save us from people who mean well. -storm
01-22-2016 09:23 PM
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Post: #4
RE: Market starting to agree uni degrees ain't worth shit
I went to college 4 years for bio chem, C average, saw the jobs / debt students my (average) caliber were getting..... 15hr lab tech plunging shit into test tubes 40 hours a week with limited potential for job growth. If your an A student with, a personality, that degree the world is your oyster, but your still going to need an additional 2-4 years of school to make the bucks.

I have been working in the trades for 7 years, In that time I've been getting paid and can literally build a house with a no English speaking helper.

most young guys come on a construction job and walk off in 4 hours .... not for them, others with some kind of "construction degree'' want top dollar and are literally a hazard on the job.

heck, I only went to college because I thought it would be an easy way out of hard work, thank jesus I saw the light.
you can learn every thing in college on your own, you just have to want it.
01-22-2016 09:27 PM
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Brodiaga Offline
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RE: Market starting to agree uni degrees ain't worth shit
Here is a business idea. Let's decompose the value you can get out of a college degree:

1. It is a filter. Admission tests screen out stupid people. If you get accepted to and graduate from a good university, a potential employer assumes that you are smart.
2. Learning, including learning to learn.
3. Networking. Making friends with classmates who will help you in future if they become successful.
4. Job search. On campus interviews, connections with employers.

The idea is to provide these components as cheaply as possible.

1. IQ/admission tests can be done independently. You can take SAT, GMAT, GRE or any other tests and put test scores on your resume.
2. Learning can be done for free even today on Coursera, Khan Academy and other web sites.
3. Networking can be done by organizing regular meetups on meetup.com and similar sites.
4. Job search and employer connections may be the most difficult part, but see below.

If somebody combines these things in a package for a small fraction of the cost by either using the resources which already exist now or, even better, creating superior products, these goals can be achieved without going to college.

For example, if Coursera or Khan Academy add formal testing and networking opportunities, they can compete against traditional colleges and offer degrees for very cheap. Once this type of learning becomes ubiquitous, companies will take notice and start inviting students and graduates for interviews and/or selecting them from the start and offering tailored programs.

This could potentially disrupt the higher education system the way Uber disrupted the taxi industry. The technology is already there. The only thing that stops this from happening is the tradition of getting a degree from a "proper" university. Hiring managers and HR think that if they had to pay 6 figures for a bullshit degree, let the candidates jump through the same hoops if they want to get hired.

I believe a new system like this will become popular maybe a decade or two from now. Eventually it may completely replace higher education as we know it.
(This post was last modified: 01-22-2016 10:18 PM by Brodiaga.)
01-22-2016 10:12 PM
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AnonymousBosch Away
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Post: #6
RE: Market starting to agree uni degrees ain't worth shit
As I predicted months back, it sounds like companies are finally waking up to the fact that hiring Socialist Agents Of Change is a bad business for Capitalist Companies.

I expect Silicon Valley to be full of True Believer Utopian Idealist types, so they'll ride Socialism all the way down into financial collapse.
01-23-2016 12:29 AM
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tomcat Offline
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RE: Market starting to agree uni degrees ain't worth shit
(01-23-2016 12:29 AM)AnonymousBosch Wrote:  As I predicted months back, it sounds like companies are finally waking up to the fact that hiring Socialist Agents Of Change is a bad business for Capitalist Companies.

I expect Silicon Valley to be full of True Believer Utopian Idealist types, so they'll ride Socialism all the way down into financial collapse.
Or perhaps, many of the top heads in Silicon valley are quite shrewd. They like being wealthy. They intend to keep it that way. Having the "Socialist Agents Of Change" running around is likely viewed as a minor cost that they can afford: feel good employee perks/relations, woman empowerment (after banging them) and of course, plentiful loud talk about equality.
01-23-2016 03:15 AM
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Post: #8
RE: Market starting to agree uni degrees ain't worth shit
Don't worry. I'm sure dropping a degree requirement is more of a way to hire more SJWs and diverse candidates. In no way with this benefit you, unless you're happy to have all these losers lean on you to do their work while they Tweet about patriarchy.

"I'm not worried about fucking terrorism, man. I was married for two fucking years. What are they going to do, scare me?"
01-23-2016 04:20 AM
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RE: Market starting to agree uni degrees ain't worth shit
(01-23-2016 12:29 AM)AnonymousBosch Wrote:  As I predicted months back, it sounds like companies are finally waking up to the fact that hiring Socialist Agents Of Change is a bad business for Capitalist Companies.

I expect Silicon Valley to be full of True Believer Utopian Idealist types, so they'll ride Socialism all the way down into financial collapse.


SJW's aren't having it all their way :

Apple Rejects Push for Inflating Number of Minority Board Members

http://www.breitbart.com/tech/2016/01/15...necessary/

It’s a historic moment. A major Silicon Valley company has actually said “no” to identity-obsessed social justice warriors.
Apple is recommending that its investors vote against a proposal to increase the diversity of its board and senior management,
calling the proposal “not necessary” and “unduly burdensome.”


Now maybe it merely has more to do with self-centred preservation on the part of these senior management folk.
Or maybe they realize it won't really be of any actual benefit?
01-23-2016 05:01 AM
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AnonymousBosch Away
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RE: Market starting to agree uni degrees ain't worth shit
(01-23-2016 03:15 AM)tomcat Wrote:  Or perhaps, many of the top heads in Silicon valley are quite shrewd. They like being wealthy. They intend to keep it that way. Having the "Socialist Agents Of Change" running around is likely viewed as a minor cost that they can afford: feel good employee perks/relations, woman empowerment (after banging them) and of course, plentiful loud talk about equality.

Pay closer attention to what has been happening.

- All Institutional Subversion by Agents Of Change serves Socialism, not Capitalism.

- All Agents Of Change serve Socialism, not their employers.

- All subverted companies will prioritise the spread of socialism rather than the original mission of the company.

- Socialism believes in grabbing power via smokescreens of equality and fairness, not advancement through meritocracy.

- The CEO of any company is readily expendable if their goals dare to place Capitalism before Socialism.

- If the CEO is known to not be a True Believer, events will be put in motion to oust them and replace them with someone who is.

- The loss of the company's original goal alienates consumers, and subverts the capitalist process.

Pay attention to Twitter and Intel Stock. Look at the market share Mozilla lost. Look at the complaints over Reddit Censorship. Note the steadily falling ratings of EPSN. Note the collapse of the New Republic. Note the shrinking market of the online and mainstream media outlets, and children's comics like those produced by Marvel and Archie Comics.

There's a commonality between all of these companies. Can you guess what it is?
(This post was last modified: 01-23-2016 05:06 AM by AnonymousBosch.)
01-23-2016 05:04 AM
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Post: #11
RE: Market starting to agree uni degrees ain't worth shit
It sounds to me like some companies are looking for a way to stop hiring women and other unreliable troublemakers. Now they can just say "sorry but we think you're way overqualified for this position and will be bored here, and we need someone long term."
01-23-2016 05:19 AM
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Paracelsus Offline
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Post: #12
RE: Market starting to agree uni degrees ain't worth shit
(01-23-2016 05:04 AM)AnonymousBosch Wrote:  
(01-23-2016 03:15 AM)tomcat Wrote:  Or perhaps, many of the top heads in Silicon valley are quite shrewd. They like being wealthy. They intend to keep it that way. Having the "Socialist Agents Of Change" running around is likely viewed as a minor cost that they can afford: feel good employee perks/relations, woman empowerment (after banging them) and of course, plentiful loud talk about equality.

Pay closer attention to what has been happening.

- All Institutional Subversion by Agents Of Change serves Socialism, not Capitalism.

- All Agents Of Change serve Socialism, not their employers.

- All subverted companies will prioritise the spread of socialism rather than the original mission of the company.

- Socialism believes in grabbing power via smokescreens of equality and fairness, not advancement through meritocracy.

- The CEO of any company is readily expendable if their goals dare to place Capitalism before Socialism.

- If the CEO is known to not be a True Believer, events will be put in motion to oust them and replace them with someone who is.

- The loss of the company's original goal alienates consumers, and subverts the capitalist process.

Pay attention to Twitter and Intel Stock. Look at the market share Mozilla lost. Look at the complaints over Reddit Censorship. Note the steadily falling ratings of EPSN. Note the collapse of the New Republic. Note the shrinking market of the online and mainstream media outlets, and children's comics like those produced by Marvel and Archie Comics.

There's a commonality between all of these companies. Can you guess what it is?

I'm sorry, but I read this and I can't help myself - I keep flashing back to Khan's monologue in the 2009 Star Trek movie, with A.B. as Khan Big Grin





Much respect.

Remissas, discite, vivet.
God save us from people who mean well. -storm
01-23-2016 05:28 AM
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N°6 Offline
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RE: Market starting to agree uni degrees ain't worth shit
I work for a multi-national and it has begun recruiting apprentices for the first time in decades. I freely admit that a bachelors and a masters degree did not prepare me for every day work, even though my job title is the same as the title of my degrees (so how the hell do those who studied the liberal arts make the transfer to fee earning work?). I went through the usual 3-4 years at the beginning of my career with the feeling that I committed 'job fraud' at my entry interview. Why not give those 4 years to an apprentice who is still living with his parents and who doesn't need to earn as much as an indebted graduate paying high rents?

But I think the main problem has been the destruction of the guilds (Northern Europe) and the corporations* (Southern Europe). Bankers and speculators would never have taken over the markets of free exchange with the guilds and corporations in place.

*(Even the term 'corporation' has been corrupted as it now means a stock-exchange owned, profit maximization business which confuses SJWs into thinking that Mussolini's Corporate State means turning the governance of the country over to McDonalds.
01-23-2016 05:57 AM
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The Beast1 Offline
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RE: Market starting to agree uni degrees ain't worth shit
The sooner higher education dies the better. I'd love nothing more than to see the degenerate bastions of the ivy league schools disappear.

Fuck 'em all. The more important place of learning is K12.

Shalom Alechem!
01-23-2016 06:38 AM
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RE: Market starting to agree uni degrees ain't worth shit
I wanted to put this in my last post, but I got dinged by my recaptcha issue.

K12 needs a purge as well. It's far more important than college is and a good educational program will do far more good than a college ever can.
Here are a few things that would immediately improve K12:

1. Eliminate tenure.
2. Pay teachers more
3. End "pay raises" for pointless master's degrees. I had a marginal teacher who did a two year master's program. He was still a marginal teacher after it was completed. Yet he gets 15k more a year WTF?!
4. End summer vacation and spread more breaks throughout the year.
5. Make class days last from 9-5. Fit in sports programs or hour long physical fitness programs in to make up for the extra time. Tie physical education into graduation. The nerds and class fatties may hate gym class, but they'll be able to at least squat their body weight by graduation whether they like it or not.
6. Eliminate homework and any "read this book over break" bullshit
7. Separate out boys and girls into different school buildings. Mingle sparingly.
8. Bring back corporal punishment, the fear of a cafeteria paddling worked. Reserve for the truly disturbed.
9. Teach shooting and marksmanship. Give out gun permits at graduation for completion of the course.
10. And finally, since school performance is directly correlated with parental involvement, have a family's tax burden be directly influenced by a child's school performance.
Betcha those absent parents will take more of an influence in those apathetic children's lives when it means $2-3k back extra each year.
01-23-2016 07:47 AM
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roberto Offline
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RE: Market starting to agree uni degrees ain't worth shit
(01-23-2016 07:47 AM)The Beast1 Wrote:  I wanted to put this in my last post, but I got dinged by my recaptcha issue.

K12 needs a purge as well. It's far more important than college is and a good educational program will do far more good than a college ever can.
Here are a few things that would immediately improve K12:

1. Eliminate tenure.
2. Pay teachers more
3. End "pay raises" for pointless master's degrees. I had a marginal teacher who did a two year master's program. He was still a marginal teacher after it was completed. Yet he gets 15k more a year WTF?!
4. End summer vacation and spread more breaks throughout the year.
5. Make class days last from 9-5. Fit in sports programs or hour long physical fitness programs in to make up for the extra time. Tie physical education into graduation. The nerds and class fatties may hate gym class, but they'll be able to at least squat their body weight by graduation whether they like it or not.
6. Eliminate homework and any "read this book over break" bullshit
7. Separate out boys and girls into different school buildings. Mingle sparingly.
8. Bring back corporal punishment, the fear of a cafeteria paddling worked. Reserve for the truly disturbed.
9. Teach shooting and marksmanship. Give out gun permits at graduation for completion of the course.
10. And finally, since school performance is directly correlated with parental involvement, have a family's tax burden be directly influenced by a child's school performance.
Betcha those absent parents will take more of an influence in those apathetic children's lives when it means $2-3k back extra each year.

I wholeheartedly concur. Not sure if you've seen much inside the workings of the UK education system , can you imagine trying to instigate your policies in the current environment? It would be carnage Banana

I'd add- recruit teachers from all walks of life. The best PE teachers are ex army surprisingly enough. My old man was a teacher, back then they were short of teachers and a couple of months course was all he needed to retrain and become a (popular) teacher. At the moment teachers are like politicians- all they've ever done is be part of the system. Hence the horrendous left wing bias.

You'd also need to tie in children's academic performance with benefits rather than taxes in order to make a difference where the problems are most pronounced.

They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety- Benjamin Franklin, as if you didn't know...
01-23-2016 09:34 AM
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Razgriz Offline
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Post: #17
RE: Market starting to agree uni degrees ain't worth shit
1. Eliminate tenure.
2. Pay teachers more
3. End "pay raises" for pointless master's degrees. I had a marginal teacher who did a two year master's program. He was still a marginal teacher after it was completed. Yet he gets 15k more a year WTF?!
4. End summer vacation and spread more breaks throughout the year.
5. Make class days last from 9-5. Fit in sports programs or hour long physical fitness programs in to make up for the extra time. Tie physical education into graduation. The nerds and class fatties may hate gym class, but they'll be able to at least squat their body weight by graduation whether they like it or not.
6. Eliminate homework and any "read this book over break" bullshit
7. Separate out boys and girls into different school buildings. Mingle sparingly.
8. Bring back corporal punishment, the fear of a cafeteria paddling worked. Reserve for the truly disturbed.
9. Teach shooting and marksmanship. Give out gun permits at graduation for completion of the course.
10. And finally, since school performance is directly correlated with parental involvement, have a family's tax burden be directly influenced by a child's school performance.
Betcha those absent parents will take more of an influence in those apathetic children's lives when it means $2-3k back extra each year.


This should be the curriculum of the ROK school.
01-23-2016 11:30 AM
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jariel Offline
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Post: #18
RE: Market starting to agree uni degrees ain't worth shit
This is one of those mental masturbation topics in which arguments are made that may have validity, but they champion shit that will never actually be put into practice -- Harvard is not going anywhere.

Most people who are disenchanted with the whole college game thought that going to State U. while getting a degree in Beer Pong meant a life of employment and financial security, and they were sadly mistaken.

I am an immigrant, so my parents schooled me on the game when I was young, and luckily I have something to show for my efforts.

I would never tell someone of my background, "Do not go to college".

Life for a minority in this country, especially one who is not originally from here and has to deal with the inherent ethnic, cultural, and language barriers is going to be awfully difficult if one is not educated.

In my opinion, being educated does not mean you have a degree in Art History. However, it does mean that you should give yourself an educational background that will help your prospects and those of your family. Ultimately, playing the game correctly will mean those prospects are going to be infinitesimally better if you have the ability to be gainfully employed and earn a good amount of money for your work.

We can not all see this game through the same lens.

People with a background similar to mine, who end up being uneducated, will by and large be stuck working retail and low-level government jobs for the duration of their lives.

We are not the ones who will be hired by those corporations who decide to give opportunities to those who chose to bypass a higher-level of education, again, we can not all see this game through the same lens.
01-23-2016 11:56 AM
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RE: Market starting to agree uni degrees ain't worth shit
People who are saying university degrees aren't useful...love to see you get treated by a doctor without a degree or cross a bridge designed by an engineer without a degree.

As for E&Y and PwC getting rid of their degree requirements: I know tons of people who work at those companies and they were mediocre students at state schools. So not surprised these companies have realized their employees are just as smart/stupid as the average high school graduate.

That said, I doubt this type of policy will get extended to actual professions like most engineering fields (with the exception of software "engineering" as you can fix code, not so easy to fix a broken bridge). I do not foresee Intel hiring people who completed KhanU for their semiconductor research staff.

Not happening. - redbeard in regards to ETH flippening BTC

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01-23-2016 12:26 PM
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ColSpanker Offline
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Post: #20
RE: Market starting to agree uni degrees ain't worth shit
(01-22-2016 09:27 PM)Begriff Wrote:  I went to college 4 years for bio chem, C average, saw the jobs / debt students my (average) caliber were getting..... 15hr lab tech plunging shit into test tubes 40 hours a week with limited potential for job growth. If your an A student with, a personality, that degree the world is your oyster, but your still going to need an additional 2-4 years of school to make the bucks.

I have been working in the trades for 7 years, In that time I've been getting paid and can literally build a house with a no English speaking helper.

most young guys come on a construction job and walk off in 4 hours .... not for them, others with some kind of "construction degree'' want top dollar and are literally a hazard on the job.

heck, I only went to college because I thought it would be an easy way out of hard work, thank jesus I saw the light.
you can learn every thing in college on your own, you just have to want it.

Word! 25 years as an industrial chemist and saw company after company downsized, sold-off or borged.

"We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately."
01-23-2016 12:32 PM
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The Beast1 Offline
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Post: #21
RE: Market starting to agree uni degrees ain't worth shit
(01-23-2016 09:34 AM)roberto Wrote:  
(01-23-2016 07:47 AM)The Beast1 Wrote:  I wanted to put this in my last post, but I got dinged by my recaptcha issue.

K12 needs a purge as well. It's far more important than college is and a good educational program will do far more good than a college ever can.
Here are a few things that would immediately improve K12:

1. Eliminate tenure.
2. Pay teachers more
3. End "pay raises" for pointless master's degrees. I had a marginal teacher who did a two year master's program. He was still a marginal teacher after it was completed. Yet he gets 15k more a year WTF?!
4. End summer vacation and spread more breaks throughout the year.
5. Make class days last from 9-5. Fit in sports programs or hour long physical fitness programs in to make up for the extra time. Tie physical education into graduation. The nerds and class fatties may hate gym class, but they'll be able to at least squat their body weight by graduation whether they like it or not.
6. Eliminate homework and any "read this book over break" bullshit
7. Separate out boys and girls into different school buildings. Mingle sparingly.
8. Bring back corporal punishment, the fear of a cafeteria paddling worked. Reserve for the truly disturbed.
9. Teach shooting and marksmanship. Give out gun permits at graduation for completion of the course.
10. And finally, since school performance is directly correlated with parental involvement, have a family's tax burden be directly influenced by a child's school performance.
Betcha those absent parents will take more of an influence in those apathetic children's lives when it means $2-3k back extra each year.

I wholeheartedly concur. Not sure if you've seen much inside the workings of the UK education system , can you imagine trying to instigate your policies in the current environment? It would be carnage Banana

I'd add- recruit teachers from all walks of life. The best PE teachers are ex army surprisingly enough. My old man was a teacher, back then they were short of teachers and a couple of months course was all he needed to retrain and become a (popular) teacher. At the moment teachers are like politicians- all they've ever done is be part of the system. Hence the horrendous left wing bias.

You'd also need to tie in children's academic performance with benefits rather than taxes in order to make a difference where the problems are most pronounced.

Very good points Roberto. I can only fathom how bad UK schools are. At least your schools pump out slightly more intelligent individuals. The end product is at least more consistent than America.

I also think school should be staffed mostly be former military folks for 9-12. High school needs tough, gritty, strict, but fair teachers who understand what it takes to get results.

I'd be more apt to pay attention to a man who did two tours in the sand box over some nitwit with a "teaching" degree.


(01-23-2016 11:56 AM)jariel Wrote:  This is one of those mental masturbation topics in which arguments are made that may have validity, but they champion shit that will never actually be put into practice -- Harvard is not going anywhere.

Most people who are disenchanted with the whole college game thought that going to State U. while getting a degree in Beer Pong meant a life of employment and financial security, and they were sadly mistaken.

I am an immigrant, so my parents schooled me on the game when I was young, and luckily I have something to show for my efforts.

I would never tell someone of my background, "Do not go to college".

Life for a minority in this country, especially one who is not originally from here and has to deal with the inherent ethnic, cultural, and language barriers is going to be awfully difficult if one is not educated.

In my opinion, being educated does not mean you have a degree in Art History. However, it does mean that you should give yourself an educational background that will help your prospects and those of your family. Ultimately, playing the game correctly will mean those prospects are going to be infinitesimally better if you have the ability to be gainfully employed and earn a good amount of money for your work.

We can not all see this game through the same lens.

People with a background similar to mine, who end up being uneducated, will by and large be stuck working retail and low-level government jobs for the duration of their lives.

We are not the ones who will be hired by those corporations who decide to give opportunities to those who chose to bypass a higher-level of education, again, we can not all see this game through the same lens.

While I agree wholeheartedly with your thesis Jariel, I went to school with Serbians, Polish, Puerto Ricans, an assortment of inner city kids, and of course a gaggle of rich kids. It was a pseudo charter magnet school where you had to test in to attend.

My education at this high school was so good, I went to a private four year college where I proceeded to learn nothing. My Algebra 2 class was more useful than my college level trig class. I learned more philosophy, history, mythology, science, and literature in those four years than I did through college. I proceeded to spend four years regurgitating high school subjects. Heck, I handed in previous assignments I did in high school again in college.

I learned nothing new with the exception of a few computer science classes which were electives against my real major.

There isn't any excuse that an education in the inner city shouldn't match what I had in my small town. In fact after I graduated the superintendent that made the school possible retired and the district did away with all of the entry requirements to get in. Now the school isn't any better than the other ones, but even then every student should be able to take classes to the same calibre I had them. It was a winning combination.

Second, Harvard and most of the ivies have become bastions of SJW libtardism. The amount of legacy students entering has been in decline and the multicultural, feminist trash have replaced them. It isn't a long stretch to say that the longer these schools keep pumping out graduates like this the big companies that recruit people from these top tier colleges are going to think twice about doing so. Harvard Business School even has gone so far to do shit like this:
hhttp://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2013/09/09/harvard_business_school_gender_equity_experiment_jodi_kantor_reports_on.html

The class of 2013 had to change the way they "talked" to help accommodate women. Granted you still get hedge fund guys doing what they do best, hassling professors and other women, but how much more can we expect that people like this aren't failed out by administrators and professors?

Schools like MIT, Caltech, CMU, Stanford and the like will obviously continue to be a meritocracy and will naturally weed out the individuals unable to perform.

Everything the hard left SJWs touch tends to wither and die. These schools actively promoting gender diversity and multicultural feel goodness over merit will begin to see their famed alumni networks become completely useless.


(01-23-2016 12:26 PM)Genghis Khan Wrote:  People who are saying university degrees aren't useful...love to see you get treated by a doctor without a degree or cross a bridge designed by an engineer without a degree.

As for E&Y and PwC getting rid of their degree requirements: I know tons of people who work at those companies and they were mediocre students at state schools. So not surprised these companies have realized their employees are just as smart/stupid as the average high school graduate.

That said, I doubt this type of policy will get extended to actual professions like most engineering fields (with the exception of software "engineering" as you can fix code, not so easy to fix a broken bridge). I do not foresee Intel hiring people who completed KhanU for their semiconductor research staff.


The degrees we're talking about are soft subjects which most college students graduate with. The people in STEM subjects deserve to be there. The ones in softer subjects? Not so much.

As for accountants, do they really need four years of higher education if they're able to pass their certifications fine and learn on the job? I'd say apprenticing would be time better spent than going to a 4 year college. Law should work this way as well.

Professionals like the ones you listed should continue to be educated in colleges. The liberal arts however should be shrunk very heavily and degrees in these fields be extremely limited. Medicine especially needs the level of immersion you'd get in a 4 year institution. There's too much needed to learn before you set foot into a hospital or practice. Same goes for engineering.

There isn't a reason to require four extra years of school when K12 can adequately accommodate what college today has become.
(This post was last modified: 01-23-2016 12:51 PM by The Beast1.)
01-23-2016 12:42 PM
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jariel Offline
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Post: #22
RE: Market starting to agree uni degrees ain't worth shit
(01-23-2016 12:32 PM)ColSpanker Wrote:  
(01-22-2016 09:27 PM)Begriff Wrote:  I went to college 4 years for bio chem, C average, saw the jobs / debt students my (average) caliber were getting..... 15hr lab tech plunging shit into test tubes 40 hours a week with limited potential for job growth. If your an A student with, a personality, that degree the world is your oyster, but your still going to need an additional 2-4 years of school to make the bucks.

I have been working in the trades for 7 years, In that time I've been getting paid and can literally build a house with a no English speaking helper.

most young guys come on a construction job and walk off in 4 hours .... not for them, others with some kind of "construction degree'' want top dollar and are literally a hazard on the job.

heck, I only went to college because I thought it would be an easy way out of hard work, thank jesus I saw the light.
you can learn every thing in college on your own, you just have to want it.

Word! 25 years as an industrial chemist and saw company after company downsized, sold-off or borged.

Excuse me if you I am taking your statements the wrong way, but you guys are college graduates who have been employed -- and have probably made at least decent money -- for your entire adult lives, where exactly is the complaint?

Companies are created to be sold, that is part of the game.

You moved into your house, and at some point when the market was looking good, you sold your house, that is part of the game.

What's the difference?

I mean come on, for at least 25 years you've had work.

Again, excuse me if I'm misreading your statement, but I feel like some perspective is very much needed.
01-23-2016 12:47 PM
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Post: #23
RE: Market starting to agree uni degrees ain't worth shit
Companies used to administer IQ testing for applicants in certain positions that required high reasoning skills. That was made illegal through the Griggs vs. Duke Power Co. case, and now college is used as a proxy.

Ironically, college application tests like the SAT and ACT are basically the same as an IQ test. Test scores are highly correlated with IQ, so essentially serve the same purpose. Colleges and academia are institutions which serve the elite, so they've escaped punishment.

So now, instead of a simple test, people are forced to spend tens of thousands of dollars and 4 years of their life to perform the same task. Good for college administrators, bad for students. Also allows the government to collect inflated debt servicing payments which can't be discharged through bankruptcy.
01-23-2016 01:07 PM
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Post: #24
RE: Market starting to agree uni degrees ain't worth shit
(01-23-2016 12:42 PM)The Beast1 Wrote:  Second, Harvard and most of the ivies have become bastions of SJW libtardism. The amount of legacy students entering has been in decline and the multicultural, feminist trash have replaced them. It isn't a long stretch to say that the longer these schools keep pumping out graduates like this the big companies that recruit people from these top tier colleges are going to think twice about doing so. Harvard Business School even has gone so far to do shit like this:
hhttp://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2013/09/09/harvard_business_school_gender_equity_experiment_jodi_kantor_reports_on.html

The class of 2013 had to change the way they "talked" to help accommodate women. Granted you still get hedge fund guys doing what they do best, hassling professors and other women, but how much more can we expect that people like this aren't failed out by administrators and professors?

Schools like MIT, Caltech, CMU, Stanford and the like will obviously continue to be a meritocracy and will naturally weed out the individuals unable to perform.

Everything the hard left SJWs touch tends to wither and die. These schools actively promoting gender diversity and multicultural feel goodness over merit will begin to see their famed alumni networks become completely useless.

I agree with most of your post, except for this distinction between the Ivies and schools like MIT/Stanford/CMU. Although a lot of the Ivies have gotten flak recently, their STEM curricula can easily compete with pure STEM schools like MIT and CalTech. Princeton for example has quite arguably the best math and physics departments in the world. Turing, Feynmann and Terrence Tao all attended Princeton. Jeff Bezos is a graduate from Princeton's engineering program. Harvard as well has a very reputable physics and math program (and arguably once again the best). But I do agree the liberal arts components of these schools are a disease upon society, and it's something a lot of people at these institutions (esp. in the STEM majors) think as well.

Not happening. - redbeard in regards to ETH flippening BTC

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01-23-2016 01:28 PM
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Quintus Curtius Offline
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Post: #25
RE: Market starting to agree uni degrees ain't worth shit
(01-23-2016 11:56 AM)jariel Wrote:  This is one of those mental masturbation topics in which arguments are made that may have validity, but they champion shit that will never actually be put into practice -- Harvard is not going anywhere.

Most people who are disenchanted with the whole college game thought that going to State U. while getting a degree in Beer Pong meant a life of employment and financial security, and they were sadly mistaken.

I am an immigrant, so my parents schooled me on the game when I was young, and luckily I have something to show for my efforts.

I would never tell someone of my background, "Do not go to college".

Life for a minority in this country, especially one who is not originally from here and has to deal with the inherent ethnic, cultural, and language barriers is going to be awfully difficult if one is not educated.

In my opinion, being educated does not mean you have a degree in Art History. However, it does mean that you should give yourself an educational background that will help your prospects and those of your family. Ultimately, playing the game correctly will mean those prospects are going to be infinitesimally better if you have the ability to be gainfully employed and earn a good amount of money for your work.

We can not all see this game through the same lens.

People with a background similar to mine, who end up being uneducated, will by and large be stuck working retail and low-level government jobs for the duration of their lives.

We are not the ones who will be hired by those corporations who decide to give opportunities to those who chose to bypass a higher-level of education, again, we can not all see this game through the same lens.


[Image: AujjXvd.gif]

Damn, man.

Thank you, J, for this great comment. I think the anti-college rhetoric has gone way too far.

And I've said this before.

If you're a man, you have an obligation to educate and better yourself. What type of school you choose--trade school, technical school, or university--is up to you.

But the anti-college people eventually start to sound like anti-education people. And that is a dead end that leads nowhere.

Don't listen to the hucksters and jerkoffs who tell you to become a millionaire by dropping out of society and making YouTube videos all day.

I'm getting tired of this shit. These bloggers telling young guys to do this are lying to them, feeding them bullshit so that they can make money selling their supplements and "hopium" of living the vida loca in tropical climes.

We know who they are.

Chances are, you will wind up an asshole.

Life is not a fucking game.

Don't be an asshole.

http://qcurtius.com/2015/09/08/you-need-...l-choices/

Don't disgrace your ancestors, who worked hard to get you where you are now.

No whining. Get in there and work.

The world is a competitive place. You need all the edge you can get. Drop out of education, and you surrender the playing field to hordes of hungry, aggressive Chinese, Indians, feminists, and the rest of the hungry world.

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01-23-2016 01:34 PM
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